CRJ900
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Wed May 17, 2017 11:14 pm

If a 150-seat CS300 is 20% more economical/efficient than a 156-seat A319, why not give it a try. Not every route needs 186-235 seats.
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wrongwayup
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Wed May 17, 2017 11:33 pm

Polot wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
If U2 wanted a 319 sized plane, wouldn't they have ordered it at the same time as the A320neo's ?

If U2 wanted a A321 sized plane, why didn't they order it at the same time as the A320neos?


Because A320s with conversion options have lower PDPs than A321s. Oldest trick in the book.
 
FelixINX
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Sat May 20, 2017 1:33 am

Apparently, Bombardier may have a order but the client want delivery before the end of the year. Check at the end of the article : http://www.lesailesduquebec.com/?p=2892

I think it is JetLines because they plan to start operations before end of the year. Also, according to La Presse, the government approuved exterior share (or something like that) but they have to buy some CSeries.
 
Jetsouth
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Sat May 20, 2017 10:48 am

FelixINX wrote:
Apparently, Bombardier may have a order but the client want delivery before the end of the year. Check at the end of the article : http://www.lesailesduquebec.com/?p=2892

I think it is JetLines because they plan to start operations before end of the year. Also, according to La Presse, the government approuved exterior share (or something like that) but they have to buy some CSeries.


Bombardier has a number of built CS100's sitting around that do not seem to be assigned to any customers. In addition, some of their FTV's were going to be sold to airlines. Could they have been built on spec to be delivered to airlines that needed small quantities right away? If not, who were these planes built for? They have been sitting around in their outside storage since at least last year.
 
ist2014
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Sat May 20, 2017 12:40 pm

i think Bombarider should focus on Iran and Turkey markets
It will be very useful for big and underserved Iran market, CS100 and 300 would be very useful for both domestic and regional international routes
Turkish market is an other story, sooner or later there will be regional airlines to complement well developed main airlines
 
Jetsouth
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Wed May 24, 2017 9:40 pm

Fliegerfaust is speculating that there will be a large order of CSeries soon from SaudiGulf or Saudi.
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Wed May 24, 2017 11:09 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
Fliegerfaust is speculating that there will be a large order of CSeries soon from SaudiGulf or Saudi.


You mean other than this one?

http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/news ... ercom.html
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Mon May 29, 2017 9:23 am

Jetsouth wrote:
Fliegerfaust is speculating that there will be a large order of CSeries soon from SaudiGulf or Saudi.


SaudiGulf ordered CS300 aircraft few years ago.
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Jetsouth
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:54 pm

Both airBaltic and Korean have stated that they will eventually order more CSeries jets. airBaltic very pleased with the performance of their CSeries so far, exceeding expectations.
 
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:44 pm

According to Aviation Daily, China Southern may order CS100's to replace their E190's. That would be a great deal for Bombardier, and will get them into the Chinese market. A question: why are so many airlines ditching their E190's. Air Canada is just getting rid of theirs, for example. Are there any topics on Airliners.net that talk about why so many airlines are getting rid of their E190's?
 
Jetsouth
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:16 pm

According to ch-aviation, AirAsia is currently in negotiations with Bombardier to purchase Cseries jets to be used on some of their more thinly traveled routes.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:51 pm

Aerospace analyst expects #CSeries order at @Bombardier investors day Thursday, today official tamps this down--but doesn't rule out by YE


https://twitter.com/LeehamNews/status/9 ... 2291515392
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golfradio
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:24 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Aerospace analyst expects #CSeries order at @Bombardier investors day Thursday, today official tamps this down--but doesn't rule out by YE


https://twitter.com/LeehamNews/status/9 ... 2291515392


YE, had to look that one up. I had never heard of Hahn Air before. Their current fleet seems to be 3 Citations. I personally doubt this.

Edit: Never mind seems to be Yan Air https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanair
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heavymetal
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:35 pm

golfradio wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Aerospace analyst expects #CSeries order at @Bombardier investors day Thursday, today official tamps this down--but doesn't rule out by YE


https://twitter.com/LeehamNews/status/9 ... 2291515392


YE, had to look that one up. I had never heard of Hahn Air before. Their current fleet seems to be 3 Citations. I personally doubt this.

Edit: Never mind seems to be Yan Air https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanair


I suspect by "YE" means "Year End", as in they will get the orders by year-end, not Yan Air.
 
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golfradio
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:13 pm

heavymetal wrote:
golfradio wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:


YE, had to look that one up. I had never heard of Hahn Air before. Their current fleet seems to be 3 Citations. I personally doubt this.

Edit: Never mind seems to be Yan Air https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanair


I suspect by "YE" means "Year End", as in they will get the orders by year-end, not Yan Air.


:boggled: :biggrin:

I'll go rest for a while.
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KarelXWB
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:13 pm

Big news if this comes to fruition:

Planemaker Bombardier Inc aims to close deals with Chinese airlines in upcoming months and is in talks with the country’s three biggest airlines, a senior Bombardier executive said on Tuesday.

Marc Meloche, Bombardier Commercial Aircraft’s head of structured finance, said in an interview the planemaker was also in discussions with leasing businesses on purchasing its C-Series plane. He spoke to Reuters while in China.

“Prime Minister Trudeau is coming to China next month so there is optimism that Bombardier will be among those able to announce deals on that trip,” he said.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china ... SKCN1C117U
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KarelXWB
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:32 pm

JetBlue comes into picture again:

JetBlue Airways Corp. is urging U.S. regulators to reject Boeing Co.’s fair-trade complaints against Bombardier Inc. as the New York-based airline considers adding new planes to its fleet.

...

JetBlue plans to decide by the end of the year on changes to its fleet, including whether to replace its Embraer SA E190s, possibly with the C Series. The airline has held talks off-and-on with Bombardier, Bloomberg reported last year.

...

The C Series is the only aircraft offering five seats abreast, aligning it with JetBlue’s “history of product differentiation,” he said, and has potential to reduce operating costs in line with JetBlue’s low-cost model. Boeing makes no comparable aircraft, the letter said.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... de-dispute
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:22 pm

So.......with today's developments.... which lucky non-American airline might take on Delta's CSeries order? Perhaps some in China?
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china ... C117U?il=0


I don't think BBD would have any issues giving another airline Delta's pricing, or maybe even less.

Planemaker Bombardier Inc aims to close deals with Chinese airlines in upcoming months and is in talks with the country’s three biggest airlines, a senior Bombardier executive said on Tuesday.
 
Jetsouth
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:58 am

KarelXWB wrote:
JetBlue comes into picture again:

JetBlue Airways Corp. is urging U.S. regulators to reject Boeing Co.’s fair-trade complaints against Bombardier Inc. as the New York-based airline considers adding new planes to its fleet.

...

JetBlue plans to decide by the end of the year on changes to its fleet, including whether to replace its Embraer SA E190s, possibly with the C Series. The airline has held talks off-and-on with Bombardier, Bloomberg reported last year.

...

The C Series is the only aircraft offering five seats abreast, aligning it with JetBlue’s “history of product differentiation,” he said, and has potential to reduce operating costs in line with JetBlue’s low-cost model. Boeing makes no comparable aircraft, the letter said.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... de-dispute


The duties will probably kill any chance of a CSeries order
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:19 am

Jetsouth wrote:
Are there any topics on Airliners.net that talk about why so many airlines are getting rid of their E190's?


Apparently the E190 is a very high CASM aircraft.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:29 am

Jetsouth wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
JetBlue comes into picture again:

JetBlue Airways Corp. is urging U.S. regulators to reject Boeing Co.’s fair-trade complaints against Bombardier Inc. as the New York-based airline considers adding new planes to its fleet.

...

JetBlue plans to decide by the end of the year on changes to its fleet, including whether to replace its Embraer SA E190s, possibly with the C Series. The airline has held talks off-and-on with Bombardier, Bloomberg reported last year.

...

The C Series is the only aircraft offering five seats abreast, aligning it with JetBlue’s “history of product differentiation,” he said, and has potential to reduce operating costs in line with JetBlue’s low-cost model. Boeing makes no comparable aircraft, the letter said.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... de-dispute


The duties will probably kill any chance of a CSeries order

What duties? You realize United Technologies is on the other side.

JetBlue would make contract clauses.

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RJMAZ
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:04 am

CRJ900 wrote:
If a 150-seat CS300 is 20% more economical/efficient than a 156-seat A319, why not give it a try. Not every route needs 186-235 seats.

Comparing to the A319 is wrong.

If an Airline needs to move 2000 passengers per week between destinations they can achieve that by various sized aircraft.

Compare the C series with the MAX8 using 28inch pitch full economy. CASM is loosely connected to aircraft structure weight per seat.

737-8 - 200 seats - 82T max takeoff
CS100 - 133 seats - 60T max takeoff
CS300 - 160 seats - 68T max takeoff

The 737-8 wins with only 410kg per seat. The CS300 comes second with 425kg per seat. The CS100 comes third with 450kg per seat. All three have near equal range.

So when moving 2000 passengers each week the cheapest option is to use ten 737 flights. Second is to use 13 CS300 flights. The most expensive is to operate 15 CS100 flights.

The only advantage operating a smaller aircraft would be when they are struggling to fill a daily 737 flight. But the vast majority of routes operate multiple daily. Airlines like increased frequency but to a certain limit.
 
mffoda
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:23 am

I wonder what this will do with Brazil's separate complaint with the World Trade Organization focused on what it claims amount to $4 billion in illegal subsidies from the Canadian government.??

WTO will take longer, but not looking good for C-Series.

Too early for popcorn? :scratchchin:
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:43 pm

Air Baltic's CEO said that they will be most likely replacing their turboprops with up to 14 CSeries: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... air-baltic
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:30 pm

YVRLTN wrote:
I also think they would be good for some of the smaller national carriers in Europe, Africa & Mid East - Croatian, Adria, Bulgaria, Tarom, CSA, Air Nostrum, Finnair, Austrian, Aegean, Royal Jordanian, Saudia, Oman, Kuwait, Iran carriers, Egyptair, RAM, Tunisair, Kenya, Sudan, Arik, TAAG, Starbow (if they have any money)

Funny you should mention it. Unfortunately, the article Sylvain posted is in Russian only, and as far as I can find, it's the only article even mentioning this order. Nonetheless, it's worth keeping an eye on.

EgyptAir acquires 12 Bombardier CSeries CS300 and is looking for money for further purchases
 
Skywatcher
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:46 pm

There's another article in English from the Egypt Daily News.....let's hope it's true. If so, it came out of nowhere.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:03 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
There's another article in English from the Egypt Daily News.....let's hope it's true. If so, it came out of nowhere.

Got a link? I can't find it.
 
Skywatcher
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:12 pm

The link is on the Sylvain Faust link.
 
CFRPwingALbody
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:00 pm

 
jalarner
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:11 pm

It’s not really out of nowhere...they were part of the world tour a few weeks ago. I guess seeing the plane on home turf was the final confirmation it is what they wanted. That was before the Airbus announcement. I wonder if the announcement afterwards and A320 purchases at this time are all tied in together (I am sure they are, rather wonder the process on the back end looked like).
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aerolimani
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:21 pm

A top up is being negotiated with Air Baltic.

Martin Gauss, CEO of Air Baltic, launch customer for Bombardier’s C Series 300 narrowbody twinjet, said at the 2017 Dubai Airshow the airline has “taken the decision to negotiate for at least another 14 aircraft” on top of its firm order for 20 CS300s. "But that is only to fulfill the current business plan,” he added, hinting additional orders are possible.


https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... eries-300s
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:51 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
CRJ900 wrote:
If a 150-seat CS300 is 20% more economical/efficient than a 156-seat A319, why not give it a try. Not every route needs 186-235 seats.

Comparing to the A319 is wrong.

If an Airline needs to move 2000 passengers per week between destinations they can achieve that by various sized aircraft.

Compare the C series with the MAX8 using 28inch pitch full economy. CASM is loosely connected to aircraft structure weight per seat.

737-8 - 200 seats - 82T max takeoff
CS100 - 133 seats - 60T max takeoff
CS300 - 160 seats - 68T max takeoff

The 737-8 wins with only 410kg per seat. The CS300 comes second with 425kg per seat. The CS100 comes third with 450kg per seat. All three have near equal range.

So when moving 2000 passengers each week the cheapest option is to use ten 737 flights. Second is to use 13 CS300 flights. The most expensive is to operate 15 CS100 flights.

The only advantage operating a smaller aircraft would be when they are struggling to fill a daily 737 flight. But the vast majority of routes operate multiple daily. Airlines like increased frequency but to a certain limit.


Interesting stuff, but not taken into account fuel burn, extra FAs, lease prices , turnaround times, landing fees etc etc - I reckon its closer than you think
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:56 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
CRJ900 wrote:
If a 150-seat CS300 is 20% more economical/efficient than a 156-seat A319, why not give it a try. Not every route needs 186-235 seats.

Comparing to the A319 is wrong.

If an Airline needs to move 2000 passengers per week between destinations they can achieve that by various sized aircraft.

Compare the C series with the MAX8 using 28inch pitch full economy. CASM is loosely connected to aircraft structure weight per seat.

737-8 - 200 seats - 82T max takeoff
CS100 - 133 seats - 60T max takeoff
CS300 - 160 seats - 68T max takeoff

The 737-8 wins with only 410kg per seat. The CS300 comes second with 425kg per seat. The CS100 comes third with 450kg per seat. All three have near equal range.

So when moving 2000 passengers each week the cheapest option is to use ten 737 flights. Second is to use 13 CS300 flights. The most expensive is to operate 15 CS100 flights.

The only advantage operating a smaller aircraft would be when they are struggling to fill a daily 737 flight. But the vast majority of routes operate multiple daily. Airlines like increased frequency but to a certain limit.


Right, but at 2000 PDEWs / week you're better off in terms of seat cost on a daily high-density 767, but when the entire premise of air travel is convenience (at least for the time sensitive business traveler that butters the bread of network carriers worldwide), a single daily flight won't cut it. Needs to be more like 3x. So in your 2000 PDEW/wk example that works really well on a 3x daily dual-class CS100 at an 85% load factor. I'm afraid you just disproved your own point...
 
Amiga500
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:44 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Comparing to the A319 is wrong.

If an Airline needs to move 2000 passengers per week between destinations they can achieve that by various sized aircraft.

Compare the C series with the MAX8 using 28inch pitch full economy. CASM is loosely connected to aircraft structure weight per seat.

737-8 - 200 seats - 82T max takeoff
CS100 - 133 seats - 60T max takeoff
CS300 - 160 seats - 68T max takeoff

The 737-8 wins with only 410kg per seat. The CS300 comes second with 425kg per seat. The CS100 comes third with 450kg per seat. All three have near equal range.

So when moving 2000 passengers each week the cheapest option is to use ten 737 flights. Second is to use 13 CS300 flights. The most expensive is to operate 15 CS100 flights.

The only advantage operating a smaller aircraft would be when they are struggling to fill a daily 737 flight. But the vast majority of routes operate multiple daily. Airlines like increased frequency but to a certain limit.


What rubbish is this? Sure why not operate 4x A380s a week? Or 5x 777-9s?


There are 7 days in a week. By and by large, that will mean you'll need to have a morning and evening flight otherwise prospective passengers will look elsewhere, 14x flights.
So, unless you are willing to operate your -8max with an average loadfactor of 71% (compared to your CS300 @ 89%) then the CS300 makes more sense.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:20 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
Comparing to the A319 is wrong.

If an Airline needs to move 2000 passengers per week between destinations they can achieve that by various sized aircraft.

Compare the C series with the MAX8 using 28inch pitch full economy. CASM is loosely connected to aircraft structure weight per seat.

737-8 - 200 seats - 82T max takeoff
CS100 - 133 seats - 60T max takeoff
CS300 - 160 seats - 68T max takeoff

The 737-8 wins with only 410kg per seat. The CS300 comes second with 425kg per seat. The CS100 comes third with 450kg per seat. All three have near equal range.

So when moving 2000 passengers each week the cheapest option is to use ten 737 flights. Second is to use 13 CS300 flights. The most expensive is to operate 15 CS100 flights.

The only advantage operating a smaller aircraft would be when they are struggling to fill a daily 737 flight. But the vast majority of routes operate multiple daily. Airlines like increased frequency but to a certain limit.


What rubbish is this? Sure why not operate 4x A380s a week? Or 5x 777-9s?


There are 7 days in a week. By and by large, that will mean you'll need to have a morning and evening flight otherwise prospective passengers will look elsewhere, 14x flights.
So, unless you are willing to operate your -8max with an average loadfactor of 71% (compared to your CS300 @ 89%) then the CS300 makes more sense.

We have an issue of only looking at single routes. Every aircraft will fly a series of flights: AAA to BBB perhaps to CCC back to AAA (crew change?) and so on. Smaller aircraft are easier to distribute.

The CS300 has about the same CASM as the A320NEO. Very close. Which means it is only a few percent worse than the -8MAX. So it will depend on the strategy on which makes more money.

I won't fly 10 flights. Heck, I just paid a premium for my next flight to leave an hour later (easier for myself), make a shorter connection (less time in transit) and still arrive at my destination prior to dinner. That isn't done with 10 flights per week. That was done by a route flow 5X/day (to/from the hub). I cold have flown 2 hours earlier with a longer connection and arrived at my destination an hour earlier (via a different hub) for a little less money.

By having a low CASM, the C-series enables routes and frequency. Excluding Air Baltic, who exactly couldn't up-gauge if that made sense? But year round, demand isn't a constant.
I'm going to use AAA, BBB, CCC, DDD, and SSS to represent just any airports where BBB is the hub.

I like to fly from an airport where only a few TRANSCON non-stops are viable with a -8MAX size aircraft. However, a C-series would open up a few more routes (by my estimate, about doubling the non-stop flights).

Or let us take LAX. LAX to TPA, BDL, JAX, and TPA tends to come and go. In fact, LAX-BDL, I've flown 3 different airlines that have given it a try. The route needs a lower cost per flight aircraft. The C-series is that aircraft. It won't be enough seats during peak season, but it is the only one able to offer a daily non-stop.

I'll pay extra for a non-stop. But I'll also pay extra for a better connection when a non-stop isn't available.
Expect more C-series sales, besides the AirBaltic. Alas... who? when?
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StTim
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:04 pm

Plus weight isn't everything even before you get to engine sfc. Saw a lovely Swiss CS300 at LHR this morning. Looks very clean. I bet the aerodynamics are a fair bit better than the now rather aged (but much cleaned up) 737 series.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:33 am

wrongwayup wrote:
Right, but at 2000 PDEWs / week you're better off in terms of seat cost on a daily high-density 767, but when the entire premise of air travel is convenience (at least for the time sensitive business traveler that butters the bread of network carriers worldwide), a single daily flight won't cut it. Needs to be more like 3x. So in your 2000 PDEW/wk example that works really well on a 3x daily dual-class CS100 at an 85% load factor. I'm afraid you just disproved your own point...

The 2000 passengers a week is probably too low as it represents a small town that probably we be served by a prop.

Look at the other extreme.

Melbourne to Sydney has 8.5million passengers in a single year. That's is 80,000 passengers per week in one direction. So with roughly 11,000 passengers per day you need 55 daily 737-8 flights.

On this example it would be terrible idea to operate CS100 as they would need 82 flights per day. You don't need any extra frequency. In this case it will cost more on fuel and crew. You could upsize to an A380 and still have flights every hour. Off topic but the longer length MOM will be perfect for a route like this.

Now with say around 1,000 passenger per day that would represent a large town. You could have 5 daily 737-8 flights. 6 CS300 flights or 7 CS100. 5 daily flights is an acceptable frequency.

Does the extra CS300 flight justify a slight increase in daily fuel, crew costs and the hastle of operating another aircraft type?

Does a 7th daily flight using all CS100's justify more crew and a further increase in total daily fuel use?

This would still be considered a fairly thin route and airlines will probably still go with a 737 or A320. The A319 never got even considered.

If the minimum frequency goal is one morning and one evening flight then the 737 can handle any route with up to 400 daily passengers. However under 250 passengers per day even the CS100 is too big for two daily flights. So the C series has a fairly small niche being perfectly suited for routes with 250 to 400 passengers. Thats a small amount of potential routes so its not worth purchasing. Below 250 you need to use a prop or drop to one jet flight per day and above 400 the 737 and A320 start to make sense if you already have them in your fleet.
 
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tacobell101
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:06 am

EgyptAir deal is expected to happen. A firm order for 12 CS300 jets are expected to be announced. Could be announced as early as Tuesday at the Dubai Airshow

source: http://business.financialpost.com/trans ... h-egyptair
 
Amiga500
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:45 am

RJMAZ wrote:
If the minimum frequency goal is one morning and one evening flight then the 737 can handle any route with up to 400 daily passengers. However under 250 passengers per day even the CS100 is too big for two daily flights. So the C series has a fairly small niche being perfectly suited for routes with 250 to 400 passengers. Thats a small amount of potential routes so its not worth purchasing. Below 250 you need to use a prop or drop to one jet flight per day and above 400 the 737 and A320 start to make sense if you already have them in your fleet.


No, no no no no. You have jumped from a minimum frequency goal of 2 cycles/day to a set 2 cycles/day.

A common question that airlines would need to work out would be do they go with:

(i) B747-8max: Outbound flight at 6am, inbound flight at 9am & outbound flight at 6pm, inbound flight at 9pm
or
(ii) CS100 Outbound flight at 6am, inbound flight at 9am, outbound flight at 12pm, inbound flight at 3pm, outbound flight at 6pm and inbound flight at 9pm

Which would give them better yields? It'll be the CS100, they can price up the fares at the morning/evening peaks and still generate useful returns during the middle of the day. The real question would be, does the extra yields justify tying up that (CS100) airframe between 12pm-6pm? Additionally, if they have seasonal variation, then they can send the CS100 somewhere else during the middle of the day, with the 737 they have overcapacity and if they want to keep a minimum of 2 cycles/day.

It is far more complex than taking the nPax/week and dividing by the number of days in the week then dividing by the capacity of your aircraft!

For a thinner route, the CSeries offers the airline much more flexibility, and much less risk, in how they adjust their schedule to meet demand.


[6x CS100 @ 130 seats = 780 seats, 4x -8max @ 200 seats = 800 seats. So more or less equal seats.]
 
Amiga500
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:55 am

I think now the CSeries has a real chance at becoming very widespread in the market, both in terms of (i) enabling new routes and (ii) reducing risk for airlines on thin routes.

With respect to Air Baltic and Swiss, neither are the kind of airline that can shape the market. Delta might have been the keystone, but Boeing have delayed that. If (for Europeans) the likes of Easyjet were to buy some CS300, they would have a real possibility of outflanking both Ryanair and Wizz Air. They could profitably serve routes that the other two couldn't begin to approach without changing airframes (even with Easyjets relatively higher operations costs).

But, BBD/AI really need to find money anywhere for a CS500 (even if its initially swapping range for cabin area with constant MTOW). Going back to example above, if Easyjet were able to operate a mixed fleet of CS300/CS500 (maybe even a few CS100 for some routes) they'd have the benefits of commonality, ~ equivalent CASM to the A320/-8max with a CS300, yet in a few years the possibility of superior CASM of CS500 to all others without a new type introduction.
 
thumper76
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:12 am

:checkmark: I
Amiga500 wrote:
I think now the CSeries has a real chance at becoming very widespread in the market, both in terms of (i) enabling new routes and (ii) reducing risk for airlines on thin routes.

With respect to Air Baltic and Swiss, neither are the kind of airline that can shape the market. Delta might have been the keystone, but Boeing have delayed that. If (for Europeans) the likes of Easyjet were to buy some CS300, they would have a real possibility of outflanking both Ryanair and Wizz Air. They could profitably serve routes that the other two couldn't begin to approach without changing airframes (even with Easyjets relatively higher operations costs).

But, BBD/AI really need to find money anywhere for a CS500 (even if its initially swapping range for cabin area with constant MTOW). Going back to example above, if Easyjet were able to operate a mixed fleet of CS300/CS500 (maybe even a few CS100 for some routes) they'd have the benefits of commonality, ~ equivalent CASM to the A320/-8max with a CS300, yet in a few years the possibility of superior CASM of CS500 to all others without a new type introduction.

:checkmark:
Airlines must also consider at what time Boeing will replace the aging 737 family type. Will Boeing be able to build a clean sheet replacement and maintain cominality with the old airframe? If not Boeing has to start on the clean sheet aircraft ASAP, cominality was a huge selling point for the 737. Every airline that switches away from the 737 will be harder to get back.
 
Jetsouth
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:26 pm

tacobell101 wrote:
EgyptAir deal is expected to happen. A firm order for 12 CS300 jets are expected to be announced. Could be announced as early as Tuesday at the Dubai Airshow

source: http://business.financialpost.com/trans ... h-egyptair

Confirmed: Egyptair enters into a LOI to purchase 12 CS300's with an option for 12 additional ones.
 
uta999
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:40 pm

How many Cseries could Montreal build per month? If orders continue to trickle in, who will make the decision about a second production line, and where will it be?

I presume the US (Airbus), is not an option under this administration. Perhaps Northern Ireland backed by the UK Government?
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Polot
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:47 pm

uta999 wrote:
How many Cseries could Montreal build per month? If orders continue to trickle in, who will make the decision about a second production line, and where will it be?

I presume the US (Airbus), is not an option under this administration. Perhaps Northern Ireland backed by the UK Government?

They are already planning on opening a line in Mobile (for DL’s planes). I imagine any production expansion will be there or at Mirabel before they consider a new line at a third location.
 
wrongwayup
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:23 pm

Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:05 pm

uta999 wrote:
How many Cseries could Montreal build per month? If orders continue to trickle in, who will make the decision about a second production line, and where will it be?

I presume the US (Airbus), is not an option under this administration. Perhaps Northern Ireland backed by the UK Government?


The Mirabel facility was built with 10/mo in mind.
 
incitatus
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:36 pm

Amiga500 wrote:

[6x CS100 @ 130 seats = 780 seats, 4x -8max @ 200 seats = 800 seats. So more or less equal seats.]


8 x EMB-190 E2 = 800 seats and more departures with even better yield. In addition to that, the airline only has to use 2 flight attendants on the E190 instead of 3.
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Amiga500
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:46 pm

incitatus wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:

[6x CS100 @ 130 seats = 780 seats, 4x -8max @ 200 seats = 800 seats. So more or less equal seats.]


8 x EMB-190 E2 = 800 seats and more departures with even better yield. In addition to that, the airline only has to use 2 flight attendants on the E190 instead of 3.


Sticking with our 3 hrs sector time, that would mean running flights at midnight and 3am. You might get sufficient passengers for these flights (and no airport night operating restrictions), so the numbers *may* add up, in which case, yes, 190E2 is the way to go.

Or if you are wanting to fit more flights in during conventional short-haul "hours", you need another airframe.
 
wrongwayup
Posts: 156
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:22 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
incitatus wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:

[6x CS100 @ 130 seats = 780 seats, 4x -8max @ 200 seats = 800 seats. So more or less equal seats.]


8 x EMB-190 E2 = 800 seats and more departures with even better yield. In addition to that, the airline only has to use 2 flight attendants on the E190 instead of 3.


Sticking with our 3 hrs sector time, that would mean running flights at midnight and 3am. You might get sufficient passengers for these flights (and no airport night operating restrictions), so the numbers *may* add up, in which case, yes, 190E2 is the way to go.

Or if you are wanting to fit more flights in during conventional short-haul "hours", you need another airframe.


This discussion is a case in point that there are different solutions for different markets, and airlines will choose the airplane that strikes the right balance for them - this is either a single airplane type for a narrow range of markets, or several aircraft types to optimize P&L across a broader set of markets.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:31 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Sticking with our 3 hrs sector time, that would mean running flights at midnight and 3am. You might get sufficient passengers for these flights (and no airport night operating restrictions), so the numbers *may* add up, in which case, yes, 190E2 is the way to go.

Or if you are wanting to fit more flights in during conventional short-haul "hours", you need another airframe.

You won't need twice as many E190's to operate the route that a CS100 could do.

Most thin routes would be feeding into a larger hub. So aircraft can be put to use on another route.

So what the airline would do is operate 4 E190's over 3 of these thin routes. This allows the busiest route to get double morning and evening flights.

4 E190'e are similar cost to 3 CS100's.

So again we have a very small niche market for the C series. A market where a 737 can't get enough frequency for good yields and above the E190 that has superior CASM. The only advantage the C series has over the E190 is range. Most feeder routes would be fairly short. The C series allows airlines to open up a handful of new feeder routes between 2000-3000nm. The C series will have to be sold cheap for airlines to justify the costs of adding an extra type.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Cseries orders for 2017

Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:50 pm

wrongwayup wrote:
uta999 wrote:
How many Cseries could Montreal build per month? If orders continue to trickle in, who will make the decision about a second production line, and where will it be?

I presume the US (Airbus), is not an option under this administration. Perhaps Northern Ireland backed by the UK Government?


The Mirabel facility was built with 10/mo in mind.

The 2nd production line will be In Mobile.

The Mirabel plant is built to grow to 10/mo, but the site could easily grow much more. The issue is sales (orders).

The c-series is doing better than the B717, but it must gain hundreds more unit sales to be a long term viable airframe.

Lightsaber
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