Sun Country Airlines filed with DOT for a start-up waiver on its awarded authority from Minneapolis/St. Paul to Matanzas and Santa Clara Cuba.

SY says it seeks the delay to give itself "additional time to examine and mitigate barriers still in place due to the current trade embargo between the US and Cuba, examine market opportunities consistent with Sun Country's historical use of warm-weather destinations; and navigate operational challenges to smaller Cuban markets."

Accordingly Sun Country requests permission to postpone the commencement of the new US-Cuba service until the 2017-2018 winter traffic season on December 23, 2017.

OST-2016-0021

=

In other words, SY applied for the Cuba services without a clue as to their viability, or plan how to operate the routes.

LAXintl wrote:

In other words, SY applied for the Cuba services without a clue as to their viability, or plan how to operate the routes.

Or they planned to ask for this waiver all along in order to allow for the other pieces to fall in place, hotels, visa waivers etc...

At least that is the "benefit of the doubt" interpretation.

Smart move. Who knows which provisions Trump will roll back on Cuba, if he ends up doing anything at all.

LAXintl wrote:

In other words, SY applied for the Cuba services without a clue as to their viability, or plan how to operate the routes.

One could argue that a few other airlines did the same thing.

Ticket sales across the board are not selling as expected.

Aren't there still secondary slots available? Why don't they just bail and reapply?

32andBelow wrote:

Aren't there still secondary slots available? Why don't they just bail and reapply?

Better to ask for a delayed start date in the event that future events completely shut off new applications in the future.

dc10lover wrote:

Ticket sales across the board are not selling as expected.

SY hasn't even made tickets for sale, or announced a start date. Cuba has been a failure. Airlines already flying the route have trimmed back the service offered.

The folks running SY are not stupid. If other airlines are cutting back service already why should they jump in. Besides its seasonal service. Why rush..??

lavalampluva wrote:

Cuba has been a failure.

Not even 4months in, and you're already declaring an overall market failure?
Hmm

That said, I pity just about anyone who expected to see anywhere other than MIA/NYC flourish to Cuba; at least while the ridiculous category-restrictions are still in place, and while hotel inventory is essentially nonexistent.

LAX772LR wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

Cuba has been a failure.

Not even 4months in, and you're already declaring an overall market failure?
Hmm

That said, I pity just about anyone who expected to see anywhere other than MIA/NYC flourish to Cuba; at least while the ridiculous category-restrictions are still in place, and while hotel inventory is essentially nonexistent.

Everyone in the world never stopped visiting Cuba. Maybe expectations of Americans were higher than reality. While Cuba maybe be tropical it's hardly Club Med. maybe my saying it was a failure was a poor choice of words, but I do feel it will improve over time.

I think more responsibility lies with the Government, if they had thought about it, no airline has the experience of flying to Cuba commercially. There should have been more leeway & time allowed, for the carriers to properly facilitate the new destination. The subtleties of Cuba flying are best know to CU, SU, AC & the myriad of other carriers that already serve the Island Nation.

But since it is the way it is, the next best course of action is to ensure the carriers that plan on flying there are given enough time, so that they may succeed. I see no reason in rushing a carrier to failure.

lavalampluva wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

Cuba has been a failure.

Not even 4months in, and you're already declaring an overall market failure?
Hmm

That said, I pity just about anyone who expected to see anywhere other than MIA/NYC flourish to Cuba; at least while the ridiculous category-restrictions are still in place, and while hotel inventory is essentially nonexistent.

Everyone in the world never stopped visiting Cuba. Maybe expectations of Americans were higher than reality. While Cuba maybe be tropical it's hardly Club Med. maybe my saying it was a failure was a poor choice of words, but I do feel it will improve over time.

It's definitely too early to declare US-Cuba ops a failure, but I think it's readily apparent that the airlines went a little overboard expecting a huge floodgate of US-Cuba business to materialize overnight and that didn't happen. Rather than be conservative by starting with daily SoFL/NYC ops some of these airlines went gangbusters right from the start, and it looks like they're learning a lesson about that.

To say SY has no clue about Cuba is a bit misleading. For one SY has years of experience in operating Cuba charters to HAV, SNU, HOG and others.

All of the airlines prepared for a huge surge of travelers to Cuba, but this could not materialize in part due to demand, as well as lack of hotel rooms has caused hotel prices to rise and become unaffordable, compared to other Caribbean destinations. In addition, many online travel agencies do not yet or are just starting to sell Cuba trips to Americans online.

We have to remember SY is not AA, WN or B6. They are much smaller and cannot afford to fly unprofitable routes unlike the others that are willing to lose for long term gains. And their application for MSP to SNU and VRA at 1 weekly on Saturdays (same frequency as MSP-SXM and STT) actually seems quite reasonable compared to everyone else.

I have looked at loads at various times to various locales 'we' go to, and inbound has been very good ( and the folks going know how to use luggage!), however the return flights to the US are very lacking in business. I assume that will pick up as these first groups of pax start heading back into the US.

lavalampluva wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

Cuba has been a failure.

Not even 4months in, and you're already declaring an overall market failure?
Hmm

That said, I pity just about anyone who expected to see anywhere other than MIA/NYC flourish to Cuba; at least while the ridiculous category-restrictions are still in place, and while hotel inventory is essentially nonexistent.

Everyone in the world never stopped visiting Cuba. . While Cuba maybe be tropical it's hardly Club Med

. .

What?? Hotel inventory nonexistent? have you guys ever been to Cuba??
The WHOLE wide world never stopped visiting Cuba. Cuba has a TON of hotels and resorts, some of which are pretty stunning. Something maybe still needs doing in terms of "soft product" and customer care... but heck, I have been to so many dumps in the US and in the "Western/Northern" world, so I don't see what the issue should be with Cuba..

I fly to HAV on a weekly basis. Frankly, loads are crap and service (as expected) has been an utter disappointment.

There are no credit card transactions, and everything you buy is VERY expensive. I paid $100 for cigars, when the average monthly income of a Cuban is in the $20s.

Any tourist coming on the plane has the same story: interesting, but be flexible because nothing goes as planned.

It speak volumes about Cuba when we open the door and hand the ground crew things like gum, white castle hamburgers, candy, etc.

On a more political note; we can't turn the plane around despite a 1.5 hour ground time...which also says a lot about Cuba.


Long story short, unless you are the right type of person, enjoy the DR. Cuba is not a vacation paradise

jfklganyc wrote:

On a more political note; we can't turn the plane around despite a 1.5 hour ground time...which also says a lot about Cuba.


Long story short, unless you are the right type of person, enjoy the DR. Cuba is not a vacation paradise

It's funny how Canadian airlines have been flying to Cuba forever and don't have these problems. AC, WS, TS, and WG have no problems turning their A/C in 60 minutes.

Edit: I should preface this by saying only AC flies to HAV. Perhaps it's a Havana problem.

It appears that the average anetter on here though Americans were going to flood Cuba, and "grace" them with their mighty American dollar, like it had more value than the Euro or Pound presently pouring onto the island. I am sure, Americans thought Cuba was going to jump up and down and change the country just for them.

In reality ... it looks like Cuba just looked up and said ... whatever.

Cuba has a very well developed tourism market, that welcomes hundreds of flights a day. That people keep coming back is the best indication they are happy with the experience. Hell, in high season there are over a hundred flights A DAY from Canada to Cuba!

Comparing the cost of (the world's best) Cigars to the wages earned by the grower is ironic when one looks at the wages of the Indonesian that made the $200 Nikes worn by Americans or the iPhone 7 compared to the wages of the Chinese man that built it. Or better yet ... every Cuban has health care, dental care, a university education (if they desire) a job, a place to live and food to eat. The United States misses that mark by a very long shot.

It is also ironic, that a sentiment I hear often is that Cuban tourism is up, as the rest of the world is jumping to see it one last time before "Americans come in and ruin it".

If American carriers can not turn an aircraft around in 90 minutes, then they aren't doing it right. Turns are scheduled for 45 minutes for a narrow body and 60 minutes for a wide body, and usually do it quicker. I recently spent time in HAV, (fascinating place, btw) and the A319 that took us home was turned in 35 minutes ... full both ways.

SY wanted to make sure they got a slot. They were biding their time to see how the Cuban market progressed. They can ask for a start up delay, but not sure whether or not they will get it. They may have to give up the slots?

longhauler wrote:

It appears that the average anetter on here though Americans were going to flood Cuba, and "grace" them with their mighty American dollar, like it had more value than the Euro or Pound presently pouring onto the island. I am sure, Americans thought Cuba was going to jump up and down and change the country just for them.

In reality ... it looks like Cuba just looked up and said ... whatever.

Cuba has a very well developed tourism market, that welcomes hundreds of flights a day. That people keep coming back is the best indication they are happy with the experience. Hell, in high season there are over a hundred flights A DAY from Canada to Cuba!

Comparing the cost of (the world's best) Cigars to the wages earned by the grower is ironic when one looks at the wages of the Indonesian that made the $200 Nikes worn by Americans or the iPhone 7 compared to the wages of the Chinese man that built it. Or better yet ... every Cuban has health care, dental care, a university education (if they desire) a job, a place to live and food to eat. The United States misses that mark by a very long shot.

It is also ironic, that a sentiment I hear often is that Cuban tourism is up, as the rest of the world is jumping to see it one last time before "Americans come in and ruin it".

If American carriers can not turn an aircraft around in 90 minutes, then they aren't doing it right. Turns are scheduled for 45 minutes for a narrow body and 60 minutes for a wide body, and usually do it quicker. I recently spent time in HAV, (fascinating place, btw) and the A319 that took us home was turned in 35 minutes ... full both ways.

Yea Cuba! Rah Rah...paradise...except my own eyes tell a different story. And the people strapping themselves to a piece of plywood to float to America tell a different story.Next time, I will take photos and post... you can see how well these poor people live with the provisions given to them.

It is not political...It is, in fact, very, very, very sad to see.

Back to the topic at hand... it is not hard to see why beyond NYC an MIA, these flights struggle

Longhauler, maybe a hundred a day to whole island. Cuba has no infrastructure whatsoever. See it once and go somewhere else unless you like bathrooms without toilet paper and toilet seats. Santa Clara airport is literally in the middle of no place. Havana airport is a joke. People are begging for soap. Communism is failure, good to see once and learn from.

Biged wrote:

Longhauler, maybe a hundred a day to whole island. Cuba has no infrastructure whatsoever. See it once and go somewhere else unless you like bathrooms without toilet paper and toilet seats. Santa Clara airport is literally in the middle of no place. Havana airport is a joke. People are begging for soap. Communism is failure, good to see once and learn from.

I cannot speak on the Santa Clara airport but the rest of this statement is not true. I went to Havana last year and nowhere were people begging other than the Jineteras...

I think the folks running Sun Country know what they are doing. Like others who have commented on here, I agree with letting more of the puzzle pieces fall into place before starting up their Cuba service. With the incoming new administration, who the hell knows what will happen with the recent efforts at normalizing relations between the USA and Cuba. Better to sit tight and have more time to come up with a Plan B, if needed.

oldannyboy wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

That said, I pity just about anyone who expected to see anywhere other than MIA/NYC flourish to Cuba; at least while the ridiculous category-restrictions are still in place, and while hotel inventory is essentially nonexistent.

What?? Hotel inventory nonexistent? have you guys ever been to Cuba??
The WHOLE wide world never stopped visiting Cuba. Cuba has a TON of hotels and resorts, some of which are pretty stunning. Something maybe still needs doing in terms of "soft product" and customer care... but heck, I have been to so many dumps in the US and in the "Western/Northern" world, so I don't see what the issue should be with Cuba..

Calm down

Try to book last-minute hotel inventory (especially in HAV) and tell me how that goes. The supply is far outstripped by the demand, especially in the short term; hence the statement.

What are the figures for Cuba? We're having a discussion without facts.

How many tourists went to Cuba prior to the opening up with the USA?
What was the hotel occupancy rate in 2015 vs. now? How many hotel rooms? RevPAR trends?
How many US tourists/visitors?

I know a few Cuban Americans and they have interesting stories. But this is a.net. We're talking aviation. It is obvious the initial spike in flights was too much. Far too much.

Personally, I think all unused should be put back in a pool.

Lightsaber

LAX772LR wrote:

oldannyboy wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

That said, I pity just about anyone who expected to see anywhere other than MIA/NYC flourish to Cuba; at least while the ridiculous category-restrictions are still in place, and while hotel inventory is essentially nonexistent.

What?? Hotel inventory nonexistent? have you guys ever been to Cuba??
The WHOLE wide world never stopped visiting Cuba. Cuba has a TON of hotels and resorts, some of which are pretty stunning. Something maybe still needs doing in terms of "soft product" and customer care... but heck, I have been to so many dumps in the US and in the "Western/Northern" world, so I don't see what the issue should be with Cuba..

Calm down

Try to book last-minute hotel inventory (especially in HAV) and tell me how that goes. The supply is far outstripped by the demand, especially in the short term; hence the statement.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as abrasive, but I have visited Cuba without booking anything in advance and I thought there was choice aplenty. . .

UpNAWAy wrote:

and forced the governments hand.

How exactly would they do that?

The government could just as easily tell them to screw off, and have no scheduled service.
....ya know, like it's done for the last half-century or so?

LAX772LR wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

Cuba has been a failure.

Not even 4months in, and you're already declaring an overall market failure?
Hmm

That said, I pity just about anyone who expected to see anywhere other than MIA/NYC flourish to Cuba; at least while the ridiculous category-restrictions are still in place, and while hotel inventory is essentially nonexistent.

Hotel inventory non-existent? Where have all those Canadians been sleeping every winter? Those airlines aren't flying dozens of flights to Cuban resorts just to see their pretty planes take off.

LAX772LR wrote:

UpNAWAy wrote:

and forced the governments hand.

How exactly would they do that?

The government could just as easily tell them to screw off, and have no scheduled service.
....ya know, like it's done for the last half-century or so?

Such a smartass.

Wife and I just got back from a four day visit to Havana. A few points

1. Cuba "does" have all-inclusive resorts catering to Canadians and Europeans, e.g Varadero and Cayo Coco. Lots of 'em actually
2. Not all US-ians are of the "Ugly American" kind who would demand fancy modern hotels. I actually thought a subset of adventure tourists would be large enough to spark demand. Apparently the airlines thought so as well.
3.Because of US law, your credit/debit card won't work in Cuba and Cuba imposes a 10% penalty when changing money into CUCS. We bought Canadian dollars in NY (lot of them) and changed to CUC in Havana. This does mean making sure you have enough cash on hand for food and lodging for your entire trip. We got lucky - our great B&B was run by a woman whose daughter lived in canada so we were able to book with the daughter.
4. The lack of credit card access for Americans is an issue. Impossible to book an all inclusive resort, or even a hotel in Havana, and while most restaurants in Havana are cash only, people would feel uneasy with cash for their entire vacation for food AND lodging. We would've preferred going to the ATM near our B&B but alas, wasn't happening.
5. #4 is perhaps far and away the biggest issue, imposing a bit of a hassle for US-ians and limiting the market.
6. Other than the 10% tax when exchanging money. ALL of this hassle is imposed by the US.

Sad b/c Cuba and Havana is an awesome place. Can't wait to go back.

DFW789ER wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

That said, I pity just about anyone who expected to see anywhere other than MIA/NYC flourish to Cuba; at least while the ridiculous category-restrictions are still in place, and while hotel inventory is essentially nonexistent.

Hotel inventory non-existent? Where have all those Canadians been sleeping every winter? Those airlines aren't flying dozens of flights to Cuban resorts just to see their pretty planes take off.

If you choose not to hear it from me, then even a 5second search would yield you plenty of examples of companies, individuals, and media alike; all complaining/warning about the current atypical scarcity of near-term inventory for Cuban hotels, especially HAV.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation- ... 10043.html
http://www.travelpulse.com/news/tour-op ... issue.html
http://oncubamagazine.com/economy-busin ... re-packed/

LAX772LR wrote:

oldannyboy wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

That said, I pity just about anyone who expected to see anywhere other than MIA/NYC flourish to Cuba; at least while the ridiculous category-restrictions are still in place, and while hotel inventory is essentially nonexistent.

What?? Hotel inventory nonexistent? have you guys ever been to Cuba??
The WHOLE wide world never stopped visiting Cuba. Cuba has a TON of hotels and resorts, some of which are pretty stunning. Something maybe still needs doing in terms of "soft product" and customer care... but heck, I have been to so many dumps in the US and in the "Western/Northern" world, so I don't see what the issue should be with Cuba..

Calm down

Try to book last-minute hotel inventory (especially in HAV) and tell me how that goes. The supply is far outstripped by the demand, especially in the short term; hence the statement.

There are hotel rooms in Cuba - lots of them - but independent travelers will have a hard time getting them.

Tour operators book blocs of rooms in all the "better" hotels (especially in Havana and Veradero) months in advance; many of them get released, but usually only a couple of days (and sometimes a matter of hours) before the dates that were reserved. Hotels are accustomed to this arrangement, and aren't really prepared for individual bookings.

Now that AirBnB has opened the market, things are changing - but it is still the most frustrating aspect of independent travel. And AirBnB isn't going to get you a room in a 5-star resort.

alfa164 wrote:

Tour operators book blocs of rooms in all the "better" hotels (especially in Havana and Veradero) months in advance; many of them get released, but usually only a couple of days (and sometimes a matter of hours) before the dates that were reserved.

Even tour operators are having difficulty:
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation- ... 10043.html

LAX772LR wrote:

alfa164 wrote:

Tour operators book blocs of rooms in all the "better" hotels (especially in Havana and Veradero) months in advance; many of them get released, but usually only a couple of days (and sometimes a matter of hours) before the dates that were reserved.

Even tour operators are having difficulty:
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation- ... 10043.html

I probably should have added that, because the largest groups from tour operators are Canadian and European travelers, it is those companies who book and hold the bulk of rooms.

The US tour companies have been minor players in this game.

LAX772LR wrote:

DFW789ER wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

That said, I pity just about anyone who expected to see anywhere other than MIA/NYC flourish to Cuba; at least while the ridiculous category-restrictions are still in place, and while hotel inventory is essentially nonexistent.

Hotel inventory non-existent? Where have all those Canadians been sleeping every winter? Those airlines aren't flying dozens of flights to Cuban resorts just to see their pretty planes take off.

If you choose not to hear it from me, then even a 5second search would yield you plenty of examples of companies, individuals, and media alike; all complaining/warning about the current atypical scarcity of near-term inventory for Cuban hotels, especially HAV.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation- ... 10043.html
http://www.travelpulse.com/news/tour-op ... issue.html
http://oncubamagazine.com/economy-busin ... re-packed/

Perhaps my comment should be more clear. I was referring to the resort destinations that are so popular, and as others have stated get booked more via travel companies as opposed to individuals.

WG has no problem operating a one day a week flight from YDF (a town of around 5,000) to VRA. SY has no clue how to do it from a major US city.

DFW789ER wrote:

LAX772LR wrote:

lavalampluva wrote:

Cuba has been a failure.

Not even 4months in, and you're already declaring an overall market failure?
Hmm

That said, I pity just about anyone who expected to see anywhere other than MIA/NYC flourish to Cuba; at least while the ridiculous category-restrictions are still in place, and while hotel inventory is essentially nonexistent.

Hotel inventory non-existent? Where have all those Canadians been sleeping every winter? Those airlines aren't flying dozens of flights to Cuban resorts just to see their pretty planes take off.

Hotel inventory in HAV is limited. Most Americans visiting Cuba will be to that city given the restrictions. Hard to imagine an "educational" or "people to people" tour while lying down in an all inclusive in Varadero.

Yes 3 million tourists visit and occupancy rates are high. Add Americans and it gets even more difficult. And then we have the inconvenience of possibly not having the conveniences that we take for granted every where else. Like US credit cards and ATM cards being usable.

Until the restrictions go it will be the adventurous "who want to see Cuba before it changes". Those who just want a vacation will select any of the over 20 other islands available to them.