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Channex757
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:46 pm

Been reading the debate here and it's fascinating. So many possibilities and interesting points brought up.

However my take on it (FWIW) isn't that QF sees this as a massive money spinner. Far from it as ultra longhaul is expensive to operate. It has to be that the flight PER-LHR is going to be a fantastic marketing tool. Having the "bragging rights" of operating the only direct, non-stop Australia to London flight is going to help drive passengers to the airline whether they travel on the flight or not. Customers will want to know if it fits into their itinerary, reviewers will be taking the flight, and when QF has them looking at flight options and prices it's a captured customer (especially in these days of online sales).

So someone looking at whether the nonstop is any good to them flying SYD-LHR or MEL-LHR, Qantas has their eyeballs on their product and can then sell them SYD/MEL-DXB-LHR. The flight PER-LHR might not make any money in isolation but as a loss-leader type product it could make a lot of difference overall to QF international sales by driving traffic to the QF brand.
 
JAAlbert
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Re: Qantas set to announce non-stop PER-LHR flights within days

Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:41 pm

.

KrustyTheKlown wrote:
Will the flight be all business class or will people withstand 16+ hours in a 787's economy class seat?


The 789 configuration will be premium heavy but there will still be a significant Y class component.

It needs to be lower density to ensure the ULH routes can be achieved.[/quote]

American squeezes 285 passengers into its 787-9s, while United shoe horns 252 passengers into it's planes. Qantas seats just 236 in its 787, though the twenty extra business/PE seats probably accounts for the difference. The economy section will be as tight as AA and UA. Qantas seats 70 business and PE passengers, which is about 20 more business/PE seats than either American (51 Business and PE) or United (48 Business - I don't count UA's PE as it is not a true PE product, just greater leg room).

So Qantas's jet will be comparatively lighter in terms of passengers, and the business/PE passengers will enjoy the ride. The economy passengers will need to wear their compression socks, however, to survive that trip.
 
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mariner
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:56 pm

airbazar wrote:
Keep in mind that with regards to customs, that is how it works just about everywhere else in the world. In the EU, only immigration is cleared at the first point of entry. Customs is done at the last point of entry. So from a customs point of view you always have this mingling on intra-EU flights. Of course the EU doesn't care very much about "eco-control" :)


Does every airport in Europe have customs, then? Wow, that's expensive.

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caverunner17
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Re: Qantas set to announce non-stop PER-LHR flights within days

Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:16 pm

CARST wrote:
And saying these flights are too long just seems not right. People flying longhaul frequently get annoyed by "too short" longhaul flights which don't give you enough time to sleep. Your usual longhaul 9 hour flight has a one hour climb and one hour descent phase. Then you have one or two meal services. You might end up with 5 hours of useable time to sleep. But because sleeping on an aircraft isn't that easy for many people, the real time will be even shorter.

So flights in the 14-17 hour category will be much better for the bio-rythm of the human body, then stopping somewhere inbetween. You can relax, have two full meal services (instead of a meal and a small snack), you will have 8 hours of sleep and even can watch movie.


This x1000. As someone who only travels in Y, I much prefer 10+ hour flights, especially eastbound redeyes than many of the TATL flights which are only 6-8 hours.

The first meal service isn't usually completed until 2 hours after take-off, and any arrival service is usually 70-90 minutes before arrival. On a 7 hr TATL (common for Chicago-East), that leaves you only with 3.5-4 hours of "sleep" - hardly enough to pop an Ambien. Hell, on a recent SGN-NRT redeye (around a 6 hr flight), I skipped meals all together and attempted to get some shuteye.

To be honest, one of my "best" flights was ORD-HKG last year. Almost 16 hours, but I was able to watch 2 movies, pop an ambien, sleep for ~6 hours, read, take a nap, then eat again. I was 100% ready to get off that plane, but I actually felt decent and not horrible like most of my TATL flights that were half as long.
 
enzo011
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:08 pm

Channex757 wrote:
Been reading the debate here and it's fascinating. So many possibilities and interesting points brought up.

However my take on it (FWIW) isn't that QF sees this as a massive money spinner. Far from it as ultra longhaul is expensive to operate. It has to be that the flight PER-LHR is going to be a fantastic marketing tool. Having the "bragging rights" of operating the only direct, non-stop Australia to London flight is going to help drive passengers to the airline whether they travel on the flight or not. Customers will want to know if it fits into their itinerary, reviewers will be taking the flight, and when QF has them looking at flight options and prices it's a captured customer (especially in these days of online sales).

So someone looking at whether the nonstop is any good to them flying SYD-LHR or MEL-LHR, Qantas has their eyeballs on their product and can then sell them SYD/MEL-DXB-LHR. The flight PER-LHR might not make any money in isolation but as a loss-leader type product it could make a lot of difference overall to QF international sales by driving traffic to the QF brand.



They would have to have the route break even at least. It would not be great for a company that only recently had its financial troubles and lots of efficiency drives (read layoffs) to splash the cash on a route that is marginal at best. What happens when the traffic isn't there on the route other than more cost cutting and layoffs, and this only for some sort of marketing.
 
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hvusslax
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:18 pm

mariner wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Keep in mind that with regards to customs, that is how it works just about everywhere else in the world. In the EU, only immigration is cleared at the first point of entry. Customs is done at the last point of entry. So from a customs point of view you always have this mingling on intra-EU flights. Of course the EU doesn't care very much about "eco-control" :)


Does every airport in Europe have customs, then? Wow, that's expensive.

mariner


Customs is generally pretty lax in Europe. Just some spot-checks that are part random and part intelligence-based. I rarely even see a customs agent when travelling in Europe although they are probably watching me through the tinted glass or on the monitors.
 
hz747300
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:55 pm

I like the idea of changing in Perth because you can still "Go the Rooster!" on your layover, versus the dining options available in the ME outposts which are not Australian chains or way over the top luxurious.
Keep on truckin'...
 
LGAviation
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:58 pm

hvusslax wrote:
mariner wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Keep in mind that with regards to customs, that is how it works just about everywhere else in the world. In the EU, only immigration is cleared at the first point of entry. Customs is done at the last point of entry. So from a customs point of view you always have this mingling on intra-EU flights. Of course the EU doesn't care very much about "eco-control" :)


Does every airport in Europe have customs, then? Wow, that's expensive.

mariner


Customs is generally pretty lax in Europe. Just some spot-checks that are part random and part intelligence-based. I rarely even see a customs agent when travelling in Europe although they are probably watching me through the tinted glass or on the monitors.


Virtually all airports in Europe are international and since even within the EU there are some restrictions on the movement of cigarettes, they have to have customs. That being said, I have entered Europe dozens of times in the past years and have not once been asked questions by customs officials.
2016: ASP AUH AYQ BNE CBR CGK CGN CNS DAC DOH DPS DRW DWC DXB FRA HAM HIR IST LHR MEL MUC PER SYD TXL
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:06 pm

I don't think it makes sense for Perth to be a hub for Eastern Australia. If you have to stop somewhere, you might as well stop half-way and take advantage of the fuel savings and increased payload.

However, it could be good for Perth in the sense that Qantas could offer non-stop flights to Perth and then some kind of package of coupons to fly around Australia. 17 hours isn't such a big step up from the 14 hours it takes to London from Singapore.
 
A35J
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:57 pm

Just some observations about the International vs. Domestic origin of any tag to MEL which from my quick reading of the thread nobody has mentioned yet.

To my mind, one of the biggest advantages of the flight MEL - PER - LHR (assuming that is the routing) is the domestic terminal in MEL. Theoretically, passengers going to LHR could arrive an hour, even less, before their flight leaves MEL. None of the hassle of international travel which would allow more work to be done in MEL that day. Fly to PER and have all the checks of International travel done whilst in transit (wasted time anyway) before reboarding the flight which was transformed into an international gate whilst the passengers go through customs etc. (we already know it will use a 'swing gate') ready for the flight to London.

This would apply for all other cities in Australia where passengers would conceivably connect to the PER - LHR flight too and would be great for the business travellers this flight is targeted at.

Arrival into Australia might be more problematic given customs requirements. I'm not sure how that would work.
 
redroo
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:58 pm

It makes great sense for Perth to be the western hub. It would be a no brainer if the city was a little further north.

Qantas can consolidate "western" traffic through an existing station. You can now feed traffic from the eastern states to potentially new destinations in Europe, India and Africa. Think what United do at SFO and EWR on the eastern coast in USA.

As AJ has said there will be a time saving for those from Sydney and Melbourne because the layover in Perth will be less than DXB so net net it will be quicker than DXB.

It also might bring a few more tourists into WA from Europe and maybe even the eastern states !!
 
soectre99
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:14 am

2 flights per day?

"The Perth-London Boeing 787 service is expected to carry around 150,000 passengers per year"

http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-to-fly-b ... early-2018
 
AsiaTravel
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:16 am

soectre99 wrote:
2 flights per day?

"The Perth-London Boeing 787 service is expected to carry around 150,000 passengers per year"

http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-to-fly-b ... early-2018


No, that is about the capacity of a year round return not-full 789. (236 seats*2 flights (one each way)*365 days=172,280)
 
timtam
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:04 am

redroo wrote:
It makes great sense for Perth to be the western hub. It would be a no brainer if the city was a little further north.

Qantas can consolidate "western" traffic through an existing station. You can now feed traffic from the eastern states to potentially new destinations in Europe, India and Africa. Think what United do at SFO and EWR on the eastern coast in USA.

As AJ has said there will be a time saving for those from Sydney and Melbourne because the layover in Perth will be less than DXB so net net it will be quicker than DXB.

It also might bring a few more tourists into WA from Europe and maybe even the eastern states !!


QF has indicated there will be cost savings from using Perth, where they have existing operations on the ground versus using Dubai where they have to source everything from outside.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:43 am

The upgrades to PER airport will include 3 swing gates

Construction will take part in the Southern end of Terminal 3 and will take place from April 2017 and be finished by December 2017

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/skys-the ... b88325272z

Proposed schedule (mentioned in above article)

PER-LHR 1930-600+1
LHR-PER 1100-1000+1
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qf789
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:47 am

AsiaTravel wrote:
soectre99 wrote:
2 flights per day?

"The Perth-London Boeing 787 service is expected to carry around 150,000 passengers per year"

http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-to-fly-b ... early-2018


No, that is about the capacity of a year round return not-full 789. (236 seats*2 flights (one each way)*365 days=172,280)


Bare in mind that passengers to/from Australia in late April/all of May and late October/all November are typically lower than other times of the year on all carriers, particularly AUS-Europe
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aviationaware
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:07 pm

smi0006 wrote:

Because this aircraft won't be dedicated just to PER-LHR, but the fleet will do US routes and Asian routes.


Hardly possible with 8 frames and the other purported EU routes planned.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:12 pm

aviationaware wrote:
smi0006 wrote:

Because this aircraft won't be dedicated just to PER-LHR, but the fleet will do US routes and Asian routes.


Hardly possible with 8 frames and the other purported EU routes planned.


The EU routes such as FRA, CDG & FCO wont come online until the next batch of 789's are ordered
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A388
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:15 pm

I haven't read all the posts about the QF nonstop flight from Australia to the U.K. but congratulations to QF!!! I assume this will be the longest 787(-9) route? Will nonstop flights from SYD to LHR eventually be possible too with the A350-1000 or 787-10 or 777-8/-9 (probably with weight penalties/restrictions)?


A388
 
Armodeen
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:42 pm

My question is this: If a regular off the shelf 789 can fly this route, then what is the point of niche aircraft such as the A359ULR or 778?
 
DaufuskieGuy
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:17 pm

Armodeen wrote:
My question is this: If a regular off the shelf 789 can fly this route, then what is the point of niche aircraft such as the A359ULR or 778?


Configured with 25-50 fewer seats than UA/AA use with their 789 - in that sense it's not completely off the shelf. The 359/777 would allow far greater capacity.
 
traindoc
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:55 pm

And on Yahoo, they are showing a Qatar A380, with their headline about Qantas starting this flight! Let the "fake news" continue.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:11 pm

Armodeen wrote:
My question is this: If a regular off the shelf 789 can fly this route, then what is the point of niche aircraft such as the A359ULR or 778?
It will barely make it and will be weight restricted (but still worthwhile doing). An A359ULR or 778 would be able to fly it comfortably with plenty of payload.


A388 wrote:
I haven't read all the posts about the QF nonstop flight from Australia to the U.K. but congratulations to QF!!! I assume this will be the longest 787(-9) route? Will nonstop flights from SYD to LHR eventually be possible too with the A350-1000 or 787-10 or 777-8/-9 (probably with weight penalties/restrictions)?


A388

787-10 has even less range than the 789 so will be a no-go. SYD-LHR will need to be A359ULR/778 or a future 789ER/LR variant.
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thegeek
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:04 am

All this agro between Perth Airport and Qantas to run MEL-PER as an international sector? I don't believe it. They could have just done that to/from T1 like all international flights at PER already do.

I don't think QF's other international flights out of PER are moving from T1 either although I'm open to correction on that one.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:12 pm

Not everyone is convinced about the economics of this route:

Qantas has been understandably upbeat about the prospects for the route, but not all are convinced.

Some industry sources that FlightGlobal spoke to were dubious about the underlying economics of the proposed route. They say that the low seat count on Qantas's 787s coupled with the additional staffing, fuel and catering costs mean that the per-seat operating costs would be higher than the net benefit of operating nonstop. Thus, it will have to charge a premium just to cover costs.

Qantas has been reluctant to talk about the fares it will charge, saying only that they will be broadly in line with those offered by its competitors.

However, that may prove difficult given the competitiveness of the market, which has been driven by a major growth in capacity from Asian and Middle Eastern carriers in recent years. Analysis of FlightGlobal schedules data using SRS Analyzer shows that, on a typical day, there are already 10 viable one-stop flights between Perth and London, based on a maximum connection time of four hours each way.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... me-432401/
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mdavies06
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:43 pm

soectre99 wrote:
2 flights per day?

"The Perth-London Boeing 787 service is expected to carry around 150,000 passengers per year"

http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-to-fly-b ... early-2018



Perhaps someone in the know is hinting the route will eventually be increased to double daily. That's too optimistic for the beginning, but won't be entirely surprising a few years down the road.

To be honest, if domestic to international is such a terrible way of connecting, why do we see people fly US-SFO/LAX-Australia instead of via YVR or AKL for example?
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:28 am

The rock lobster industry says the non-stop flight will allow them to enter into the European market for the first time

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/wa-lobst ... b88331298z

In the printed version in todays paper it also mentions both WA & Tasmanian tourism are pushing for a direct flight between PER & HBA which currently does not exist
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Gemuser
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:06 pm

mdavies06 wrote:
Perhaps someone in the know is hinting the route will eventually be increased to double daily. That's too optimistic for the beginning, but won't be entirely surprising a few years down the road.

While I wish everyone well with this I will be surprised if the route lasts more than a few years. I don't think PER O&D is sufficient, I can't see many from SYD connecting in PER because LHR is useless for connecting to Europe and offers no advantage over DXB except to the few who have an objections to a Middle East stop over. If the service runs out of MEL [as expected] and it is an international flight from MEL then it may get decent loads from MEL BUT it seems it will be a domestic flight from MEL which will not appeal to the business/FFs passengers because who wants to make a connection instead of a transit stop?

Gemuser
 
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mariner
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:10 pm

Gemuser wrote:
While I wish everyone well with this I will be surprised if the route lasts more than a few years. I don't think PER O&D is sufficient, I can't see many from SYD connecting in PER because LHR is useless for connecting to Europe and offers no advantage over DXB except to the few who have an objections to a Middle East stop over. If the service runs out of MEL [as expected] and it is an international flight from MEL then it may get decent loads from MEL BUT it seems it will be a domestic flight from MEL which will not appeal to the business/FFs passengers because who wants to make a connection instead of a transit stop?

Gemuser


Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I don't see the problem, and I'm slightly startled by the negative attitudes to it. I don't understand your point about SYD pax at all. Those who fly through DXB are still arriving at your "useless for connections" LHR and they still do it. Still, even if you're right about SYD, the service may well, timed for connection, attract quite a few from ADL.

It may have little or no advantage over DXB but it is a one airline alternative, and I think the number of people who might prefer to avoid the Middle East may be higher than we might suppose, and not just Australia's Jewish community. Anyone who voted for Pauline Hanson's crowd might - might - prefer to avoid DXB, especially in times of flare-ups in the M. E.

If it runs as an international flight out of MEL it should be at least as attractive as MEL-DXB-LHR - especially if that is dropped or reduced, as some have suggested - and if it is a domestic flight MEL-PER, then it will be - presumably - same plane through service. Pax will have to go through border control somewhere - be it MEL or PER - but neither is exactly arduous. Or each is equally arduous, depending on your point of view.

I have some trouble thinking of PER as an eventual hub for European flights, but on a conceptual level, a subjective level, this one route is profoundly important - the first time the two continents will be connected with non-stop service and I little doubt it will, at least for the first years, attract quite a lot of "novelty" passengers. For all its history, Australia has laboured under the tyranny of distance and with this flight the distance suddenly becomes a little less tyrannous, even if it is a similar duration. It may even be of greater conceptual meaning to pax from the UK, but that's no bad thing.

If I'm wrong or if I am being overly optimistic about all this, so be it, I've been wrong or overly optimistic before, but I don't see a lot of point in negativity about something which is, by any standard, a leap forward.

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redroo
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:45 am

Don't under estimate the potential O&D from Perth to the UK. From the ABS "Around one in every eight residents of Perth was born in the UK (12% or 184,000 people). This is the largest overseas-born population group living in Perth by quite a margin, and the largest overseas-born population group found in any capital city in Australia." There are POMs everywhere in Perth.
 
waoz1
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:38 am

Mariner I think its because its not from Sydney or Melbourne is the reason is getting bagged so much.

You wait for a Sydney-Chicago or a Melbourne-Dallas
Then you will hear all the benefits of the long non stop flight and how they would all do it :)

I think the same as redroo the English population is huge in Perth and there is a lot of positive things coming from people I know in the UK that if its that easy to get to Australia they will come. I have family already considering it, especially if they don't have to travel via the middle east. I personally will avoid Dubai did it once never again.... no help, overcrowded...

Also rubbish about transferring in Perth, ever tried transferring to an international flight in Sydney or Brisbane... isnt the easiest of tasks (bus or train). At least ours will be in the same terminal.

Sorry but that's my vent before xmas :)
 
redroo
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:38 am

@waoz1 "Mariner I think its because its not from Sydney or Melbourne is the reason is getting bagged so much." +1
 
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LionelHutz
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:18 am

redroo wrote:
Don't under estimate the potential O&D from Perth to the UK. From the ABS "Around one in every eight residents of Perth was born in the UK (12% or 184,000 people). This is the largest overseas-born population group living in Perth by quite a margin, and the largest overseas-born population group found in any capital city in Australia." There are POMs everywhere in Perth.


If this does operate MEL-PER-LHR, it will be interesting to see how much traffic originates from PER compared to MEL on this flight.
Given the not inconsiderable population of PER (and broader WA) with its potential business and leisure travel traffic (many of whom would be currently using the multitude of one-stop services to LHR with EK, EY, TG, MH, SQ, etc), along with the large UK born population, is it possible MEL-PER-LHR might actually be majority PER O&D traffic?

Why would QF not have opted to instead start as solely PER-LHR 3 x week, requiring only one 789 (Yes, with a high utilisation rate) to test the concept?
 
redroo
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:51 am

The route has to operate MEL-PER-LHR because all the initial 787s are going to be based in MEL.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:23 am

waoz1 wrote:
Mariner I think its because its not from Sydney or Melbourne is the reason is getting bagged so much.

You wait for a Sydney-Chicago or a Melbourne-Dallas
Then you will hear all the benefits of the long non stop flight and how they would all do it :)

I think the same as redroo the English population is huge in Perth and there is a lot of positive things coming from people I know in the UK that if its that easy to get to Australia they will come. I have family already considering it, especially if they don't have to travel via the middle east. I personally will avoid Dubai did it once never again.... no help, overcrowded...

Also rubbish about transferring in Perth, ever tried transferring to an international flight in Sydney or Brisbane... isnt the easiest of tasks (bus or train). At least ours will be in the same terminal.

Sorry but that's my vent before xmas :)


Exactly! As someone from BNE, I am so excited about this route being able to fly BNE-PER-LHR, one stop with Qantas all the way through rather than having to go two stops via BNE-SYD/MEL-DXB-LHR! Going to be a big time saver...(sure I could fly other carriers, and have tried many others that fly one stop to LHR, I personally prefer flying QF). And to all those complaining about the flight time, I've done QF7/8 between SYD and DFW a few times in economy, a flight that is only one hour longer PER-LHR isn't going to be any worse...and this is coming from a 2m tall guy...i'm going to appreciate the inch extra legroom!
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:06 am

redroo wrote:
Don't under estimate the potential O&D from Perth to the UK. From the ABS "Around one in every eight residents of Perth was born in the UK (12% or 184,000 people). This is the largest overseas-born population group living in Perth by quite a margin, and the largest overseas-born population group found in any capital city in Australia." There are POMs everywhere in Perth.



I don't think anyone thinks there isn't the demand between Perth and the UK, it is whether the demand is there for the Perth-LHR direct flight. I am also wondering if the flights will be price competitive against the one stop options seeing as they will have less seats to sell and the cost to run the flight will be more as well. Will the price from the East Coast to LHR via Perth also have a premium to cover the cost of the flight? If not it means the tickets from Perth will have to be even more expensive to cover the costs of operating the flight.

The other question is whether the demand from Perth to the UK is to LHR only. Its all good to have a direct flight to LHR but if you have family in the North of the UK you either have to take another flight or a long train journey or car trip. The advantage of EK for instance in this case would be a direct flight to what many would consider secondary airports in the UK. Yes you have to go through the zoo of Dubai, but if you aren't going to LHR you will need to go through the "wonderful" Heathrow experience. You will be trading one zoo for another.
 
CXfirst
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:18 am

Went via DXB during their morning wave the other day. Standing in that line for security was a complete mess. As I stood there, there were people next to me complaining and saying that this was the absolute worst part of the trip.

I've seen a lot of people saying it is good to break up the trip a bit, like DXB does. However, if that stopover is spent standing in a queue that is busting at its seams and then possibly going for a long walk (not an issue if you fly QF though) for what could be a tight connection, it doesn't really help. It just adds to the stress of travel.

I do see the appeal of transiting through PER.
 
waoz1
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:32 am

Your right CXfirst

Dubai runs at a strange speed. Ive experienced longest wait for doors to open on an aircraft and more security lines than a football match. Signage blends into one and no one to help.

Wont do it again
 
lancelot07
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:50 am

mariner wrote:
Does every airport in Europe have customs, then? Wow, that's expensive.

mariner

Yes, just about every airport. You see, Europe does not equal EU.
 
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mariner
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:16 am

enzo011 wrote:
The other question is whether the demand from Perth to the UK is to LHR only. Its all good to have a direct flight to LHR but if you have family in the North of the UK you either have to take another flight or a long train journey or car trip.


Which people do all the time, and if you're going to the south, Portsmouth or Southampton, say, it isn't a long car journey, it's a couple of hours, or there are trains.

For anyone in the west of England, the nearest intercontinental airport is probably LHR - I wouldn't drive from Cornwall to Manchester, or even Birmingham, to catch a flight that I could just as easily get from LHR.

Sure, there's a pretty good market for flights to/from MAN, and for some of the other English airports as well, but the greater choice is at LHR. And bear in mind that the population of southern England alone is just under 30 million, and the majority of business people want to spend at least some time in London, as do the overwhelming majority of tourists going to the UK.

lancelot07 wrote:
Yes, just about every airport. You see, Europe does not equal EU.


Europe or EU, I'm happy they think they can afford it. Image

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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LionelHutz
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:04 am

redroo wrote:
The route has to operate MEL-PER-LHR because all the initial 787s are going to be based in MEL.


It does appear that way with MEL-LAX announced, however it was posited that PER-LHR could be operated by an isolated pair (or one, if 3 x weekly) of aircraft from the rest of the QF 789 routes.

Is it really worth the commitment of 3 of QF's new 789's to run MEL-PER-LHR? When 1 or 2 aircraft could operate PER-LHR, either 3 x week or daily, dependant on how demand pans out.
Or is this the indication QF 9 and 10 will be dropped if it works out?

Whilst daily service is a stronger proposition for a route, I find it hard to believe a 3 x week service PER-LHR wouldn't do quite nicely, drawing enough O&D traffic whilst allowing more of the 789's to open other routes.

I believe MEL-PER-LHR has a reasonable chance of success but do in reflection find it surprising to commit 3 of what is only 8 aircraft.
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:34 am

LionelHutz wrote:
redroo wrote:
The route has to operate MEL-PER-LHR because all the initial 787s are going to be based in MEL.


It does appear that way with MEL-LAX announced, however it was posited that PER-LHR could be operated by an isolated pair (or one, if 3 x weekly) of aircraft from the rest of the QF 789 routes.

Is it really worth the commitment of 3 of QF's new 789's to run MEL-PER-LHR? When 1 or 2 aircraft could operate PER-LHR, either 3 x week or daily, dependant on how demand pans out.
Or is this the indication QF 9 and 10 will be dropped if it works out?

Whilst daily service is a stronger proposition for a route, I find it hard to believe a 3 x week service PER-LHR wouldn't do quite nicely, drawing enough O&D traffic whilst allowing more of the 789's to open other routes.

I believe MEL-PER-LHR has a reasonable chance of success but do in reflection find it surprising to commit 3 of what is only 8 aircraft.


I guess it will depend on the operational pattern that QF go with.

There is still over a year to go before PER-LHR commences and in that time I am sure the airline will assess the best way forward.
 
qf002
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:53 am

LionelHutz wrote:
Is it really worth the commitment of 3 of QF's new 789's to run MEL-PER-LHR? When 1 or 2 aircraft could operate PER-LHR, either 3 x week or daily, dependant on how demand pans out.


They can do both MEL-PER-LHR and MEL-LAX daily with 4 frames. QF are experts when it comes to maximising utilisation, they know what they are doing.

I think PER-LHR will end up being a big success for QF. One-stop PER-LHR fares seem broadly comparable with SYD-DFW fares and that service is profitable despite being very expensive to operate. They would be silly not to go all-in from the beginning, this is a huge, proven market not an experimental new venture. People just need to wrap their heads around PER being comparable to DXB, SIN or HKG as a connecting point.
 
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LionelHutz
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:11 pm

qf002 wrote:
LionelHutz wrote:
Is it really worth the commitment of 3 of QF's new 789's to run MEL-PER-LHR? When 1 or 2 aircraft could operate PER-LHR, either 3 x week or daily, dependant on how demand pans out.


They can do both MEL-PER-LHR and MEL-LAX daily with 4 frames. QF are experts when it comes to maximising utilisation, they know what they are doing.

I think PER-LHR will end up being a big success for QF. One-stop PER-LHR fares seem broadly comparable with SYD-DFW fares and that service is profitable despite being very expensive to operate. They would be silly not to go all-in from the beginning, this is a huge, proven market not an experimental new venture. People just need to wrap their heads around PER being comparable to DXB, SIN or HKG as a connecting point.


Hmmm, didn't consider they would combine MEL-PER-LHR with MEL-LAX.
Looking at GCMap that could be done with 4 frames (high utilisation rate, probably around 18 hours a day?)

Well if they make a success of it, I guess we may see destinations like CDG, FCO, FRA, etc offered.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:12 pm

LionelHutz wrote:
qf002 wrote:
LionelHutz wrote:
Is it really worth the commitment of 3 of QF's new 789's to run MEL-PER-LHR? When 1 or 2 aircraft could operate PER-LHR, either 3 x week or daily, dependant on how demand pans out.


They can do both MEL-PER-LHR and MEL-LAX daily with 4 frames. QF are experts when it comes to maximising utilisation, they know what they are doing.

I think PER-LHR will end up being a big success for QF. One-stop PER-LHR fares seem broadly comparable with SYD-DFW fares and that service is profitable despite being very expensive to operate. They would be silly not to go all-in from the beginning, this is a huge, proven market not an experimental new venture. People just need to wrap their heads around PER being comparable to DXB, SIN or HKG as a connecting point.


Hmmm, didn't consider they would combine MEL-PER-LHR with MEL-LAX.
Looking at GCMap that could be done with 4 frames (high utilisation rate, probably around 18 hours a day?)

Well if they make a success of it, I guess we may see destinations like CDG, FCO, FRA, etc offered.


qf002 is right on the money here in regards to utilization. QF are experts to maximizing utilization plus they have a vast amount of experience of flying LH/ULH routes

PER-LHR is due to start sometime in March, though no date has been confirmed yet it isn't starting until they have the 4th frame delivered. Currently we know that the first 3 frames are due for delivery on 12/10/17, 1/12/17 and 31/12/17.

The utilization on a daily MEL-PER-LHR and a 6 weekly MEL-LAX route works outs to be 16.64 hrs a day (16hrs38mins a day). This worked out to be 466hrs and 5 minutes a week for the 4 frames and just over 116hrs and 30 minutes a week per frame

As I mentioned in the Australian Aviation thread QF could use the MEL-PER leg as purely international and have the MEL-LAX extended to PER so it terminates/starts in PER. It would be one way of making sure the MEL-PER load factor better. They could use the QF9/10 or whatever it may be plus the QF95/96 flight numbers on the MEL-PER leg. QF would be able to market the LAX flights from PER as a same plane service (something we have never had) plus there would be no need to change terminals either
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Ryanair01
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:45 pm

In quick response to the multiple posts above regarding operating costs, in particular that ULH can not be profitable etc etc.

Quick simple look. QF already has lots of capacity from the east coast to Perth. It will not cost them an extra dime to funnel passengers across to Perth because the capacity already exists today, yes they have to fly the 787 to Perth from the east coast, which surely just means swapping out a current A330? The incremental cost is 17 hours flying from PER to LHR. However against that extra 17 hours, you have a 20+ hour saving in flight time by cancelling MEL-DXB-SYD and a second saving from ground costs in DXB.

Yes ULH can be tough on fuel (and therefore costs), because you take off heavy. However as you can see from the above, there are some big offsets in this particular case. On balance this looks like a cost saving exercise.

Passengers travelling to other European destinations will need to use Emirates the whole way (loosing the QF option), but I can't see that being a huge problem for QF as they revenue/cost share with EK anyway. Underneath the PR spin, QF are making quite an efficiency in available network seat km by culling a daily A380 rotation to Europe from the east coast and replacing it with a much smaller 787. QF are betting LHR passengers will take the PER route with its lower incremental costs for the network and those heading to other European destinations will simply be reallocated to EK flights.
 
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LionelHutz
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:19 pm

qf789 wrote:
As I mentioned in the Australian Aviation thread QF could use the MEL-PER leg as purely international and have the MEL-LAX extended to PER so it terminates/starts in PER. It would be one way of making sure the MEL-PER load factor better. They could use the QF9/10 or whatever it may be plus the QF95/96 flight numbers on the MEL-PER leg. QF would be able to market the LAX flights from PER as a same plane service (something we have never had) plus there would be no need to change terminals either


Ahhh, yes, operating PER-MEL-LAX would be another benefit to load factors.

Ryanair01 wrote:
Passengers travelling to other European destinations will need to use Emirates the whole way (loosing the QF option), but I can't see that being a huge problem for QF as they revenue/cost share with EK anyway. Underneath the PR spin, QF are making quite an efficiency in available network seat km by culling a daily A380 rotation to Europe from the east coast and replacing it with a much smaller 787. QF are betting LHR passengers will take the PER route with its lower incremental costs for the network and those heading to other European destinations will simply be reallocated to EK flights.


The savings of replacing the MEL-DXB-LHR A388 rotation, with a MEL-PER-LHR 789 rotation I would guess are quite favourable.
ULH with a premium heavy configuration is not cheap, but neither is the A388...
 
enzo011
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:05 pm

mariner wrote:
Which people do all the time, and if you're going to the south, Portsmouth or Southampton, say, it isn't a long car journey, it's a couple of hours, or there are trains.

For anyone in the west of England, the nearest intercontinental airport is probably LHR - I wouldn't drive from Cornwall to Manchester, or even Birmingham, to catch a flight that I could just as easily get from LHR.

Sure, there's a pretty good market for flights to/from MAN, and for some of the other English airports as well, but the greater choice is at LHR. And bear in mind that the population of southern England alone is just under 30 million, and the majority of business people want to spend at least some time in London, as do the overwhelming majority of tourists going to the UK.



The airport that is closest to people living south of London is in London as there isn't any international gateways that is served by the major airlines like further north in the UK. If you go further north you start getting more options of flying into Birmingham, Manchester and the other airports that are served not just by EK but by the other ME3 airlines. The discussion was that Perth has a lot of people from the UK and this will help with the demand. I am offering the opinion that not all of those ex-UK travelers will find LHR convenient. If you have family in Liverpool and you are going home to visit them then if you choose to fly direct with Qantas you will still need to either connect to another flight to MAN or Liverpool, or you will have a 4 hours or more drive ahead of you. That seems to negate any advantage the direct flying had unless you are travelling to London specifically.

We will only know how demand is and if the route makes any money after a few months of operation. It will be interesting to see if this will happen for QF.
 
AngMoh
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:18 pm

redroo wrote:
Don't under estimate the potential O&D from Perth to the UK. From the ABS "Around one in every eight residents of Perth was born in the UK (12% or 184,000 people). This is the largest overseas-born population group living in Perth by quite a margin, and the largest overseas-born population group found in any capital city in Australia." There are POMs everywhere in Perth.


So now Perth is great, even though just recently QF did not think Perth was worth any international flight at all.

qf002 wrote:
LionelHutz wrote:
Is it really worth the commitment of 3 of QF's new 789's to run MEL-PER-LHR? When 1 or 2 aircraft could operate PER-LHR, either 3 x week or daily, dependant on how demand pans out.


They can do both MEL-PER-LHR and MEL-LAX daily with 4 frames. QF are experts when it comes to maximising utilisation, they know what they are doing.

I think PER-LHR will end up being a big success for QF. One-stop PER-LHR fares seem broadly comparable with SYD-DFW fares and that service is profitable despite being very expensive to operate. They would be silly not to go all-in from the beginning, this is a huge, proven market not an experimental new venture. People just need to wrap their heads around PER being comparable to DXB, SIN or HKG as a connecting point.


PER-LHR will only be a success if it is cheaper or the same than any other option. The traffic is retired people "going home to mother England". Business wise it does not make sense, otherwise QF would not have killed all international flights from PER and made it a Jetstar only airport for international flights.
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mariner
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:41 pm

enzo011 wrote:
The discussion was that Perth has a lot of people from the UK and this will help with the demand. I am offering the opinion that not all of those ex-UK travelers will find LHR convenient. If you have family in Liverpool and you are going home to visit them then if you choose to fly direct with Qantas you will still need to either connect to another flight to MAN or Liverpool, or you will have a 4 hours or more drive ahead of you. That seems to negate any advantage the direct flying had unless you are travelling to London specifically.


I guess I'm missing your point, because that's always been true. Anyone from Perth who wants to get to Liverpool can fly PER-DXB-MAN and drive or get the train from there. I don't think anyone flies MAN-LPL, so it will continue to be true, this new flight doesn't change anything for them. It is also possible that a fair number of those VFR pax going to the north will still fly into LHR because they want to experience London at one end of their trip or the other.

My family lives in the south of England - Portsmouth/Southampton area - and on my most recent trip I avoided LHR altogether by flying into CGD, getting Eurostar to Kent and driving from there. I don't go back often and I wanted to experience some of the English countryside along the way. But I still went up to London (train) from my sister's house for the experience of London, which, for someone who lives in the New Zealand wood-woop, is extraordinary. AKL-PER-LHR doesn't change much for me, but I may - may - still use it if I go back again because I have to stop somewhere, so why not PER?

There remains the vast number of people who, no matter where they from in the UK or the families they are visiting live in the UK, fly into LHR and I assume that the efficient Qantas has studied those traffic patterns.

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