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KarelXWB
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:33 pm

I guess everyone saw this announcement coming? The past months we heard lots of hints/rumors.
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Gemuser
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:57 pm

mariner wrote:
XAM2175 wrote:
My presumption is that the MEL-PER and PER-MEL legs will be treated as continuing sectors ("tags") rather than domestic connections and so they will depart from and arrive into MEL as international flights. Therefore passengers to and from MEL will go through customs and immigration there, and only passengers joining or leaving in PER will need the formalities performed there. Since it won't be at the current PER international terminal it's a bit harder to predict the experience.


I don't read it that way. I've been flying internationally for seven decades and within my experience, you go through border control at your first port of entry into any country. There may be exceptions to this, but I've never found 'em. mariner

I am with XAM2175 on this. Australia has never had such a policy [at least for many decades]. There are numerous examples, the latest I'm aware of is when QF8 DFW-SYD stoped in BNEit worked as XAM2175 explained. Another example, which I have flown is the former CNS-NRT flight. The aircraft originated in SYD [International Terminal] and carried domestic passengers under the D system.
As the aircraft MUST originate on the east coast and a number of posts above have stated it will be MEL, [although the QF Press Release is silent on the matter] it seems unlikely that the east coast - PER flight will operate as anything other than an international flight. Having said that the "swing gate" idea is AFAIK, unique in Australia so this may affect things in ways I cannot imagine.

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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:03 pm

I dd MEM-DFW-BNE-AKL

Arrival checks were in Auckland
Bollocks.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:18 pm

LionelHutz wrote:
It does seem strange. To clarify they said 4 x Dreamliners, not explicity "daily double".

Approximately 17 hours each way should give time, even with a layover off a few hours in LHR (depending on what slots they use)?
A high utilisation factor no doubt.

To the 17 hours each way PER-LHR you need to add transit time in PER and the about 5 hours or so to MEL/SYD/BNE. So assuming 90 minutes transit its going to be about 23.5 hours each way, too far for 2 aircraft to do a daily rotation, but not far enough to require 4 aircraft.
The only other alternatives to sending the aircraft through to the east coast that I can see are: 1) establish a B787 maintenance base in PER and run a captive operation, HIGHLY unlikely or 2) a "W" patten rotation such as east coast-somewhere-PER-LHR-somewhere-east coast or something similar over LHR, except that as far as we know to date this will be QFs only LHR B789 service.

With timings like this and especially if passengers have to make a connection, rather than a transit stop I really, really can't see this service being particularly attractive to east coast traffic except for those that have some objection to the DXB transit, which while they undoubtedly exist do not appear to be a large number.

But we shall see, won't we?

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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:33 pm

mariner wrote:
I don't read it that way. I've been flying internationally for seven decades and within my experience, you go through border control at your first port of entry into any country. There may be exceptions to this, but I've never found 'em.
...
A couple of months ago, I flew into the EU, at CDG, and we went through border control there - no matter what onward connection anyone had.
...
I don't know how they could seperate the international pax on PER-MEL from the purely domestic pax. Someone carrying drugs or their person, e.g., or banned food stuffs, could hand them over to a domestic passenger.


Gemuser wrote:
Australia has never had such a policy [at least for many decades]. There are numerous examples, the latest I'm aware of is when QF8 DFW-SYD stoped in BNEit worked as XAM2175 explained. Another example, which I have flown is the former CNS-NRT flight. The aircraft originated in SYD [International Terminal] and carried domestic passengers under the D system.


Australia isn't really any exception to this - it's just that we have a fairly unique "extra" category of international flight that happens to be wholly domestic, in the sense that the international flight can call at one Australian port and then continue to another. For the LHR-PER-MEL passenger, PER-MEL isn't a domestic connection, it's a continuation of an international flight from LHR that happened to stop at PER instead of DXB or SIN or suchlike. As Gemuser notes, this was the arrangement for QF8 and for all manner of other tag flights. Many many moons ago, in fact, I flew Ansett BNE-SYD-CHC and return in exactly this fashion.

Your US and CDG examples are indeed though the more common ways of doing it - tag flights are treated as domestic sectors with or without cabotage rights.

As to the separation of domestic passengers from international; it is done administratively with the D-pass system and legally by making *all* passengers on tag flights subject to customs and quarantine control.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:39 pm

XAM2175 wrote:
As to the separation of domestic passengers from international; it is done administratively with the D-pass system and legally by making *all* passengers on tag flights subject to customs and quarantine control.


That seems extraordinarily cumbersome to me, and onerous for the domestic pax affected - (do they have to have passports for a domestic flight?) - but each to their own.

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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:41 pm

XAM2175 wrote:
it's just that we have a fairly unique "extra" category of international flight that happens to be wholly domestic, in the sense that the international flight can call at one Australian port and then continue to another.


BA also had this arrangement when they did long-haul tag-on flights to MAN for their LGW services to MCO, ISB and BGI, THe CAA stopped them from going after any purely MAN-LGW passengers, leaving Dan Air in sole charge the passenger rights for that route
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:54 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Distance wise, it is shorter to go via Asia:
PER-NRT-JFK: 11664 nm

However I am not sure how long the wait is in NRT to make a OneWorld connection to/from PER. NRT-JFK has good frequency but the other major eastern US markets such as BOS, IAD, and PHL have very limited or nonexistent OW service from NRT. Compare that to BA/AA from LHR with hourly flights to JFK and good frequency to BOS, IAD, etc. Assuming BA would codeshare, going via LHR could be more convenient or even faster if the schedules work out. It is only 2nm longer than PER-DXB-JFK on EK.


OW already serves PER one-stop to US East Coast, and you can fly PER-HKG-JFK at 11804mi (and EWR, ORD and BOS). Short of IAD, I'm not sure what major US East Coast market would have that much traffic to/from PER.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:01 pm

mariner wrote:
XAM2175 wrote:
As to the separation of domestic passengers from international; it is done administratively with the D-pass system and legally by making *all* passengers on tag flights subject to customs and quarantine control.


That seems extraordinarily cumbersome to me, and onerous for the domestic pax affected - (do they have to have passports for a domestic flight?) - but each to their own.

mariner


Oh yes, it is cumbersome for the domestic passengers, because they're subject to international security regulations (nudoscopy, LAG rules, etc), earlier check-in times (QF specify 60 minutes for domestic passengers departing international terminals, rather than 30 for standard domestic), and full border controls at both ends.

The passenger must also be carrying satisfactory proof of ID - a passport, Australian driver's license, etc - which is matched to the ticket at check-in when the D-pass is issued, after which both the pass and ID are presented at both exit and entry immigration:

Image

Granted, when I flew QF8 I was fast-tracked through entry immigration and sent unchecked through customs and quarantine, but they did run a dog past me on the way.

I feel that the D-pass system only exists because somebody felt that domestic passengers should have the option of using the tags, but not because they actually wanted people to use them. My trip on QF8 even cost me a whole dollar more than the mainline domestic flight five minutes later (but still worth it for a 744ER against a 738...)

I feel also that the airside transit between domestic ports is far nicer for actual international passengers than the American way, if you compare DFW-BNE-SYD or LHR-PER-MEL with BNE-LAX-JFK, for example.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:07 pm

Not to change the subject but does the 789 have the range to do SYD-IST non stop? I know TK has discussed service between Australia and Turkey in the past. Will QF order 789's for Jetstar in the future?
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:24 pm

ikramerica wrote:
anyone's experience is or staffing at the Perth Int terminal is irrelevant because they won't be using it. They will fly from the domestic terminal and staffing will be specifically done for the flight. It could be overstaffed or understaffed but we can't know until then.

It's like asking about the new FIS at LAX T2 based on people's experience with TBIT. Not directly correlated.



In a way you are correct, but the experience at the airport could be a guide on how they will operate it in the future. I understand that the current experience in one terminal isn't in any way indicative of how it is in a terminal that isn't even open yet, but if they understaffed Border Control at the current terminal is there any reason, other than they won't, that this will not happen in the new terminal as well?

It will be interesting if passengers will be allowed to stay on the aircraft when it arrives in Perth or if they will have to leave the aircraft and wait in the terminal for the departing flight. Maybe they will be asked to wait in a secure area away from other passengers if they have cleared immigration already or they will be allowed to roam the terminal at their leisure.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:28 pm

XAM2175 wrote:
Oh yes, it is cumbersome for the domestic passengers, because they're subject to international security regulations (nudoscopy, LAG rules, etc), earlier check-in times (QF specify 60 minutes for domestic passengers departing international terminals, rather than 30 for standard domestic), and full border controls at both ends.


If I have to go through all that crap flying domestically MEL-PER, I think I'll avoid Qantas and the idea of domestic pax going through customs inspection of luggage is somewhat ludicrous, but hey, that's Australia.

I prefer the American system - when you're coming into the country you're coming into the country and all the processes are done then - and I'm surprised by what you describe, especially with regard to eco-control.

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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:15 pm

mariner wrote:
XAM2175 wrote:
Oh yes, it is cumbersome for the domestic passengers, because they're subject to international security regulations (nudoscopy, LAG rules, etc), earlier check-in times (QF specify 60 minutes for domestic passengers departing international terminals, rather than 30 for standard domestic), and full border controls at both ends.


If I have to go through all that crap flying domestically MEL-PER, I think I'll avoid Qantas and the idea of domestic pax going through customs inspection of luggage is somewhat ludicrous, but hey, that's Australia.
I prefer the American system - when you're coming into the country you're coming into the country and all the processes are done then - and I'm surprised by what you describe, especially with regard to eco-control.
mariner

Its NOT cumbersome for domestic passenger at all. You check in at the International terminal [I prefer this in SYD], you must have photo id [which you don't need for domestic], you go in the door to outwards C&I, go down the "domestic" lane set up off to one side, show your boarding pass & go to your gate. When arriving you do the same thing entre by the domestic lane, pick up your bags [which also have a big D on them and exit with NO customs or AQIS inspections.
It no more of a hassel, at least in SYD than the domestic terminals.

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Re: Qantas set to announce non-stop PER-LHR flights within days

Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:07 am

redroo wrote:
People like to bag Perth...


Australians remain pretty parochial based on State lines. So those in the Eastern States will have a natural bias against this. However if your a business traveler you dont care about State lines. You want to take the quickest route with the smallest interruption land that will get you to London in the best condition to get straight to work. If this flight means you land in London better able to get straight to work then the flight will be a winner with business travelers and that is all that really matters. Business is the key to profitability. Economy is just there to make up the numbers and cover costs.

Perth is arguably the prettiest of the major cities in Australia with arguably the best beaches of any of the major cities (and I am not from Perth). What has always worked against it is its distance from the East Coast. Becoming the hub for flights to Europe could open up significant new opportunities for Perth. From a European travellers perspective, Perth would be a great stopover to spend a few days before heading to your final destination.

12% of Perth's population was born in the UK - by far the highest proportion of any Australian city. Both Perth and Adelaide are the most English of all of the Australian cities. Almost 30% of the population of both Perth and Adelaide are of English descent.

Its a great move by QF and it will work well.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:17 am

XAM2175 wrote:
I feel that the D-pass system only exists because somebody felt that domestic passengers should have the option of using the tags, but not because they actually wanted people to use them.


Did not the D-pass system come into place during the 1989 Pilots' Dispute? I vaguely remember international carriers being allowed to carry domestic-only passengers on domestic sectors during the dispute.

I think QF then kept started it again up when they took over TN in 1992, in order to earn some extra revenue and offer passengers more choice. I do not think QF were permitted to carry domestic-only passengers before they took over TN (with the exception of during the Pilots' Dispute) - but I could be wrong.
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:20 am

+1 @timtam
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:28 am

Gemuser wrote:
Its NOT cumbersome for domestic passenger at all. You check in at the International terminal [I prefer this in SYD], you must have photo id [which you don't need for domestic], you go in the door to outwards C&I, go down the "domestic" lane set up off to one side, show your boarding pass & go to your gate. When arriving you do the same thing entre by the domestic lane, pick up your bags [which also have a big D on them and exit with NO customs or AQIS inspections.
It no more of a hassel, at least in SYD than the domestic terminals.

Gemuser


Colour me confused. Image

I was responding to a poster who said the system was far more complicated than that, and in your simple version of it I have no idea how they keep the international pax "seperate" from the domestic pax, and thus from the possible transfer off illegal goods, unwanted germs, insects, etc.

If the international pax are not cleared at the first arrival point, how can they be "in Australia" - yet it seems they are.

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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:46 am

mariner wrote:
Colour me confused. Image
I was responding to a poster who said the system was far more complicated than that, and in your simple version of it I have no idea how they keep the international pax "seperate" from the domestic pax, and thus from the possible transfer off illegal goods, unwanted germs, insects, etc.
If the international pax are not cleared at the first arrival point, how can they be "in Australia" - yet it seems they are.mariner

Its a legal thing. Even if you are in Australian airspace you are not "in Australia" until you clear C&I. When domestic passengers use an international tag [from international terminal to international terminal] they are not in Australia, they reenter when they pass back through C&I, even though the D Pass system allows them to by pass the lines. C&I must be happy with the effectiveness of the system as its been in use for years.

BTW the sitution described in my previous post details my trip to & from CNS just before the CNS-NRT flight was canned.

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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:54 am

Gemuser wrote:
Even if you are in Australian airspace you are not "in Australia" until you clear C&I.


The uncleared pax are mingling with non-sterile Australian pax in a free - Australian - environment.

Gemuser wrote:
C&I must be happy with the effectiveness of the system as its been in use for years.


If that's what it is, that's what it is, but given Australia's obsessive border control policies in other areas I remain surprised - even astonished - that they're prepared to take that risk.

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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:00 am

mariner wrote:
XAM2175 wrote:
Oh yes, it is cumbersome for the domestic passengers, because they're subject to international security regulations (nudoscopy, LAG rules, etc), earlier check-in times (QF specify 60 minutes for domestic passengers departing international terminals, rather than 30 for standard domestic), and full border controls at both ends.


If I have to go through all that crap flying domestically MEL-PER, I think I'll avoid Qantas and the idea of domestic pax going through customs inspection of luggage is somewhat ludicrous, but hey, that's Australia.

I prefer the American system - when you're coming into the country you're coming into the country and all the processes are done then - and I'm surprised by what you describe, especially with regard to eco-control.

mariner

Except that for international passengers, it is much preferable to not have to handle your bags during the intermediate stop as well, but just the once at the final destination. Yes, it can be a pain for domestic passengers, but they at least have the option of taking a "regular" flight if they wish to do that.
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:08 am

DavidByrne wrote:
Except that for international passengers, it is much preferable to not have to handle your bags during the intermediate stop as well, but just the once at the final destination..


Sure, it may be.

But I must be a very old-fashioned Australian because I thought this was about the security - especially the bio-security - of Australia, not the convenience to passengers.

I'm old enough to remember when we all had to sit in the cabin and be sprayed with insecticide when we arrived at an Australian entry port.

mariner
Last edited by mariner on Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:18 am

Bluebird191 wrote:
EK413 wrote:

QF have 2 LHR slots currently leased to BA... There was another article stating QF cutting the MEL-DXB-LHR in favour of PER-LHR, I highly doubt it and wouldn't read to much into it.

EK413


You sure? My sources have regularly told me that the current QF9/10 A380 flight MEL-DXB-LHR is highly favoured by staff using their travel benefits for non-rev travel to DXB and LHR, simply because they know they can get a seat. Loads are consistently much lower than on QF1/2, but I don't know the pax load average or what they're getting for the flights.


Where would an additional 2 x A380's be deployed? I understand the SYD-HKG A380 seasonal returns over the peak Xmas period but I don't see the route supporting all year round A380 services.

EK413
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:35 am

KarelXWB wrote:
I guess everyone saw this announcement coming? The past months we heard lots of hints/rumors.


Well I wouldn't go that far as to say everyone saw this announcement coming. QF actually kept their cards close to their chest at the start. PER-LHR did eventually seem to be the front runner however the last 2 weeks of November there were consistent reports of QF and Perth Airport being at war with each other. Here in Perth we practically had daily reports of how the flights could be axed before they even started. You had QF sticking firm with a seemless transfer in T3/T4 and you had Perth Airport sticking firm with having the flight at T1 and having passengers bussed across the tarmac and neither one willing to budge. While this was happening the State government was just sitting back watching this implode. It wasn't until several prominent business leaders started pressuring the government to intervene that the government did actually join in the discussions. Personally I wasn't confident of PER-LHR taking place until news reports came out 2 days ago saying an announcement was imminent.
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:44 am

EK413 wrote:

Where would an additional 2 x A380's be deployed? I understand the SYD-HKG A380 seasonal returns over the peak Xmas period but I don't see the route supporting all year round A380 services.

EK413


Though this wont probably happen they could use the A380 on QF127/128 and the second daily flight could operate at a reduce frequency (lets say 4 weekly) and the other 3 weekly services could be moved to either increase MEL or BNE or maybe restart PER

Alternatively by the time 2018 the oldest A380's will mark 10 years old so maybe we will see an announcement of a cabin refurbishment, also at some point they will also need to be repainted as well so without adjusting the current maintenance schedule this may be an option as well
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:45 am

qf789 wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
I guess everyone saw this announcement coming? The past months we heard lots of hints/rumors.


Well I wouldn't go that far as to say everyone saw this announcement coming. QF actually kept their cards close to their chest at the start. PER-LHR did eventually seem to be the front runner however the last 2 weeks of November there were consistent reports of QF and Perth Airport being at war with each other. Here in Perth we practically had daily reports of how the flights could be axed before they even started. You had QF sticking firm with a seemless transfer in T3/T4 and you had Perth Airport sticking firm with having the flight at T1 and having passengers bussed across the tarmac and neither one willing to budge. While this was happening the State government was just sitting back watching this implode. It wasn't until several prominent business leaders started pressuring the government to intervene that the government did actually join in the discussions. Personally I wasn't confident of PER-LHR taking place until news reports came out 2 days ago saying an announcement was imminent.


Interesting that the QF flights to SIN along with the seasonal AKL flights will also move across. I wonder if this means QF will close the QantasClub in the current International terminal and build a new facility in the space to be modified to handle the International flight. Also no word about Jetstar flights to Bali moving across but would also make sense to move them and have the whole QF group operating from the 1 precinct.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:09 am

Sydscott wrote:
qf789 wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
I guess everyone saw this announcement coming? The past months we heard lots of hints/rumors.


Interesting that the QF flights to SIN along with the seasonal AKL flights will also move across. I wonder if this means QF will close the QantasClub in the current International terminal and build a new facility in the space to be modified to handle the International flight. Also no word about Jetstar flights to Bali moving across but would also make sense to move them and have the whole QF group operating from the 1 precinct.



When Qantas didn't have any international flight out of Perth they did not close the Qantas Club as it is used by other airlines
ie Etihad, Cathay, Qatar etc.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:10 am

mariner wrote:
I'm old enough to remember when we all had to sit in the cabin and be sprayed with insecticide when we arrived at an Australian entry port. mariner

This still happens on some airlines, especially those with few flights to Australia. I had it on BA SIN-SYD in 2013.

sydscott wrote:
Interesting that the QF flights to SIN along with the seasonal AKL flights will also move across. I wonder if this means QF will close the QantasClub in the current International terminal and build a new facility in the space to be modified to handle the International flight. Also no word about Jetstar flights to Bali moving across but would also make sense to move them and have the whole QF group operating from the 1 precinct

There doesn't seem to be any overlap with QF/JQ international departures, so JQ could also make the move. They're less reliant on connections, so could just as easily stay put.
The PER domestic lounges were recently upgraded and are currently superior to the lounge at Terminal 1. They kept the T1 lounge even after SIN-PER was cancelled, so they might keep it to make some extra money from all the other airlines who use it.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:38 am

What is the likeliness of Syd-JFK with a 787?
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:42 am

I think it's safe the say the qantas club in international will close when the QF flights move over to domestic
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:02 am

redroo wrote:
I think it's safe the say the qantas club in international will close when the QF flights move over to domestic



Didn't close when they had no services, they make a bit of money out of other airlines that run out of the international.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:23 am

mariner wrote:
I thought this was about the security - especially the bio-security - of Australia, not the convenience to passengers.

Agree that there are many ways that security could be compromised by mixing international passengers with domestic passengers, especially if the domestic passengers get a free pass through customs. However, given that the current system allows it, from a pax point of view it IS definitely more convenient to only handle your bags the once.
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:28 am

Curiousflyer wrote:
What is the likeliness of Syd-JFK with a 787?


The 787 does not have range for a non-stop SYD-JFK, previously when QF CEO has been asked about such a flight he has mentioned the 778
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:17 am

Gemuser wrote:
LionelHutz wrote:
It does seem strange. To clarify they said 4 x Dreamliners, not explicity "daily double".

Approximately 17 hours each way should give time, even with a layover off a few hours in LHR (depending on what slots they use)?
A high utilisation factor no doubt.

To the 17 hours each way PER-LHR you need to add transit time in PER and the about 5 hours or so to MEL/SYD/BNE. So assuming 90 minutes transit its going to be about 23.5 hours each way, too far for 2 aircraft to do a daily rotation, but not far enough to require 4 aircraft.
The only other alternatives to sending the aircraft through to the east coast that I can see are: 1) establish a B787 maintenance base in PER and run a captive operation, HIGHLY unlikely or 2) a "W" patten rotation such as east coast-somewhere-PER-LHR-somewhere-east coast or something similar over LHR, except that as far as we know to date this will be QFs only LHR B789 service.

With timings like this and especially if passengers have to make a connection, rather than a transit stop I really, really can't see this service being particularly attractive to east coast traffic except for those that have some objection to the DXB transit, which while they undoubtedly exist do not appear to be a large number.

But we shall see, won't we?

Gemuser


I was assuming when they said 4 x 789's that it would solely be PER-LHR enough for daily double, but that looks unlikely (who knows where the ABC pulled that figure of 4 aircraft from).
If the flight does operate MEL-PER-LHR-PER-LHR that's about 40-42 hrs in flight time, which could be operated daily by 3 aircraft for a respectable 14 hrs a day of utilisation.
When I was discussing this a few weeks ago I believe someone mentioned if they operated solely PER-LHR maintenance might be done at LHR (BA?)

As for the attractiveness of the direct flight over the DXB stop, a lot of people on these forums seem to dislike DXB, it is worth something to attracting pax, how much remains to be seen.

Dropping QF 9 / 10 might make sense if yield is not great, plus allows them to keep those profitable slots at LHR leased to BA.

EK413 wrote:
Bluebird191 wrote:
EK413 wrote:

QF have 2 LHR slots currently leased to BA... There was another article stating QF cutting the MEL-DXB-LHR in favour of PER-LHR, I highly doubt it and wouldn't read to much into it.

EK413


You sure? My sources have regularly told me that the current QF9/10 A380 flight MEL-DXB-LHR is highly favoured by staff using their travel benefits for non-rev travel to DXB and LHR, simply because they know they can get a seat. Loads are consistently much lower than on QF1/2, but I don't know the pax load average or what they're getting for the flights.


Where would an additional 2 x A380's be deployed? I understand the SYD-HKG A380 seasonal returns over the peak Xmas period but I don't see the route supporting all year round A380 services.

EK413


I believe SYD-HKG is one of QF's most heavily patronized 744 routes so it is a possible place for an A388 to be deployed.
However SYD-HND uses two 744's to operate and also puts up decent load factors and could allow the A338's to be redeployed and the 744's retired.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:23 am

Don't get it. They have to block seats anyway - why go 3-3-3 instead of going 2-4-2 and not having to block? Makes no sense except for the domestic legs, which shouldn't be the thing to care about in this equation.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:46 am

aviationaware wrote:
Don't get it. They have to block seats anyway - why go 3-3-3 instead of going 2-4-2 and not having to block? Makes no sense except for the domestic legs, which shouldn't be the thing to care about in this equation.


Because this aircraft won't be dedicated just to PER-LHR, but the fleet will do US routes and Asian routes. And capacity on the day will vary depending on flight planning, and cargo - why reduce the flexibility? Most people would rather a vacant seat next to them with an arm rest that raises than a mildly wider seat.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:39 am

Local business & tourism leaders have welcomed the decision and have the described as a "game changing" economic breakthrough for WA

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western ... 2e05292273

Also QF CEO Alan Joyce spoke on sunrise this morning, video can be seen through above link

Highlights of interview include

Economy class tickets may possibly cheaper, supper efficient aircraft plus PER currently has a lot of the infrastructure that QF uses (catering, ground support, etc) now it will be cheaper to fly through PER than DXB or SIN
Flights from East coast-PER-LHR will save an hour over existing transfer points DXB & SIN
Flights from PER-LHR will save 3 hours over existing transfer points DXB & SIN
Customs & Immigration - wont be the long queues compared to other terminals/airports, making it a lot more efficient
The 789 is the most luxurious aircraft QF have put into the air
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747m8te
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:43 am

mariner wrote:
XAM2175 wrote:
My presumption is that the MEL-PER and PER-MEL legs will be treated as continuing sectors ("tags") rather than domestic connections and so they will depart from and arrive into MEL as international flights. Therefore passengers to and from MEL will go through customs and immigration there, and only passengers joining or leaving in PER will need the formalities performed there. Since it won't be at the current PER international terminal it's a bit harder to predict the experience.


I don't read it that way. I've been flying internationally for seven decades and within my experience, you go through border control at your first port of entry into any country. There may be exceptions to this, but I've never found 'em.

It was certainly true at LAX, for example, and JFK, where there was a well-organised process for this. Arriving as an international, you'd go through immigration, pick up your bags and go through customs and immediately take your bags to a station for those bags, which were ticketed through, to be transferred to your onward domestic flight.

A couple of months ago, I flew into the EU, at CDG, and we went through border control there - no matter what onward connection anyone had.

So I assume that LHR pax bound for MEL will go through border control at PER. I'm not sure how else it could work, because I don't know how they could seperate the international pax on PER-MEL from the purely domestic pax. Someone carrying drugs or their person, e.g., or banned food stuffs, could hand them over to a domestic passenger.

mariner


All countries vary with this process, some require clearance at the first port of entry, while others, like many European countries can clear and collect their bags at final destination on international to domestic sectors (though if entering Europe and going to another schengen member state that can be different). Australia is the former where if the passenger is connecting onto a pure domestic flight they have to clear at the first point of entry, however if the flight is an international tag on you don't until your final port.

For example, if QF run the flight like they used to do QF8 that ran DFW-BNE-SYD, those pax going to SYD stayed in transit in international in BNE (no clearing or collecting their bags) before re-boarding for SYD where they arrived at international terminal and cleared customs there...I have done this flight on a number of occasions. Also in the same way pax who fly CX to BNE on the HKG-CNS-BNE run don't clear or collect bags until they arrive in BNE. So it is possible QF could run the flight exactly the same way LHR-PER-MEL, and it would simply be the other destinations that would have to clear in PER, which makes no difference as to now if they connect to BNE, ADL or CBR for example from the QF flights into SYD or MEL...just they will now have the added benefit of only one stop flight and not two so it is a win!

Even though that is an option for them, I don't see it set up like that for other factors. One detractor for them from doing this set up like QF did DFW-BNE-SYD is those wanting to use the lounge. When they did this in BNE because the flight was through the international terminal pax could use the QF international lounge. The swing gate at PER is going to be an international sterile area (that the QF lounge isn't going to be a part of unless they plan to build an additional lounge...) at the domestic terminal in PER, which would technically require pax to clear into Australia in PER if they wanted to use the lounge as it will be directly accessible to standard domestic pax, so unable to mix both pax types. So the way I understand it pax MEL-PER-LHR wll depart MEL from domestic arrive into PER, where in transit they can access the lounge or what ever before clearing customs and boarding their flight onward to LHR and vise versa...the exact same way these swing gates/small international gates are done currently in ADL/CBR/DRW.
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:44 am

mariner wrote:
If I have to go through all that crap flying domestically MEL-PER, I think I'll avoid Qantas and the idea of domestic pax going through customs inspection of luggage is somewhat ludicrous, but hey, that's Australia.


I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding the process - this may apply ONLY to the presently-hypothetical MEL-PER and PER-MEL sectors of the MEL-PER-LHR-PER-MEL flight which will probably end up as the future QF9 and 10.

QF will not be providing this service for the benefit of domestic passengers - that's what all the other normal MEL-PER services exist for. Even in my QF8 example there was a standard domestic departure to SYD five minutes after QF8. If I'd travelled on that flight I would have saved a dollar, had 30 minutes extra to check in, not had to go through the nudoscope or adhere to the LAG rules at security, and had a much more pleasant arrival experience in Sydney. The only people taking QF8 solely between BNE and SYD were people making international connections at Sydney, because clearing departure controls in BNE and arriving into T1 in SYD made such connections much easier, and foamers such as myself who specifically wanted to bag the 744ER.

And therein lies the reason, I feel, for the continued existence of Australia's "international" domestic flights - they are easier for the international passenger. Operating this way means that the MEL-LHR and LHR-MEL passenger will have exactly the same flight experience transiting PER as they would at any of the traditional Kangaroo or Falcon Route transits.

Gemuser seems to paint a somewhat different picture of how the D-Pass system works, and it might be completely correct in his experience. I've never used it departing from SYD. In my understanding though from a customs and quarantine perspective the D-passenger is considered to have left Australia when they board the flight and is liable to inspection when they "return" at their destination, even though in most cases that inspection is nothing more than a cursory glance. But if I might turn that around a bit - C&Q paid as much attention to me when I arrived at SYD on a D-pass from BNE as they did when I arrived in MEL from LHR. Make of that what you will.

In the end it could all be completely moot - QF may decide not to offer the D-pass service, or it may end up being run as 747m8te suggests; fully domestic between MEL and PER, although personally I would be surprised at that.
Last edited by XAM2175 on Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
slinky09
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:53 am

Depending on turnaround times and other factors on utilization including the PER-MEL add on, this route is likely to use 3 to 4 aircraft at any time, would that be correct? QF must be sure that it's more worthwhile than other options for such aircraft utilization and maybe think they will be able to charge premium pricing for some of the seats ...
 
Btblue
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:54 am

Does anybody know when these are likely to be bookable?
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:57 am

Btblue wrote:
Does anybody know when these are likely to be bookable?


From April 2017
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:06 am

slinky09 wrote:
Depending on turnaround times and other factors on utilization including the PER-MEL add on, this route is likely to use 3 to 4 aircraft at any time, would that be correct? QF must be sure that it's more worthwhile than other options for such aircraft utilization and maybe think they will be able to charge premium pricing for some of the seats ...


It would only take 2.5 to 3 aircraft at most, currently both QF1/2 and QF9/10 to LHR use about 5 aircraft between them

The whole trip (MEL-PER-LHR-PER-MEL) would take about 50-51 hours

MEL-PER 4 hrs
ground time 2 hrs
PER-LHR 17 hrs
ground time 5 hours (this is based on a 7am arrival and 12 noon departure)
LHR-PER 15-16 hrs
ground time 2 hours
PER-MEL 3hrs35mins
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:36 am

XAM2175 wrote:
I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding the process - this may apply ONLY to the presently-hypothetical MEL-PER and PER-MEL sectors of the MEL-PER-LHR-PER-MEL flight which will probably end up as the future QF9 and 10.


I understand it completely. Except that I've been given two different and conflicting versions of how it operates. Which to believe? And as an Australian, I don't like either version.

Yours seems un-necesarily overly-complicated for a domestic flight and the other version, the simpler "D" one, seems to me to be more careless of Australia's eco-security. An international passenger who is wearing shoes that they have worn on a foreign farm could - always could - transmit all sorts of microbes and one is enough.

It is - or should be - an extraordinarily simple process. When you enter a country you go through all the checks. I don't see a lot of point in doing the checks after the horse may have bolted.

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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:46 am

I don't really see any vast conflict between my description and the one given by Gemuser, because we're describing the same process but from what sounds like slightly different experiences at different airports.

I also can't help but think you're getting stuck on viewing these as viable domestic flights, which they are not and have never been, with the exception of vhtje's suggestion that the D-Pass system entered use during the Pilot's Strike when cabotage restrictions were suspended. Since then it has merely been an "if you really want to" option that QF have kept around.

It's worth noting that the D-Pass system isn't at use at all at the moment because no airline with domestic traffic rights in Australia is currently flying these tag sectors, and even when they were, the number of domestic passengers being carried was minuscule. JQ used to offer them on on the services between BNE and MEL when they had to rotate the 788 but often as not they'd be cancelled and sent empty because nobody wanted to go through the extra hassle for no benefit UNLESS they were making an international connection at either end AND knew that flying the tag made it easier.

The D-Pass procedure - in my experience, anyway - is not overly complicated but it is more effort than just taking a bog-standard domestic. A D-Pass passenger is subject to the exact same security screening as a true international passenger. A D-Pass passenger must present at exit immigration to be identified and have their boarding pass stamped. Gemuser says in SYD there was a priority line for this; at BNE there wasn't. A D-Pass passenger on arrival must present at inbound immigration to be identified again and their boarding pass will be stamped again. At SYD there is a priority line for this. The D-Pass passenger then collects their luggage and enters the queue for customs and quarantine like any other passenger, whereupon the C&Q staff have the right to send the D-passenger for the same scrutiny as any other passenger. There is no dedicated bypass arrangement - it is at the discretion of the screeners.

Hell, I arrived from LHR once and was sent past all the screening apart from the baggage X-ray. When I asked to have my carry-on bag hand-screened on the basis I had a lot of unprocessed film in it, I was simply handed it back without it even being opened and sent to the exit.

I respect your long experience in these matters hugely, but I fear we might be coming at this from opposing angles without meaning to. I view the carriage of D-passengers on this service as being limited mainly to people who really want to fly the 789 over a 738 or A332. The loads may be such that D-seats aren't even available with any sort of regularity, particularly if this service replaces the current QF9/10 arrangement and even more so if the timings are better.

I do also genuinely believe that this arrangement is superior for the genuine international passenger.
 
luftaom
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:21 am

Lovely bit of political rent seeking by QF to get the WA government to cough up $14 million of taxpayers' money. They are masters at this. Their recent strategy of backgrounding certain media organisations, getting lots of free airtime and whipping up public desire for 'how great will this be' - all whilst trying to get the WA government a few months out from an election to back a private enterprise with public cash. Well played ... very well played.
airliners.net's passenger - simultaneously connecting and flying direct.
 
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mariner
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:28 am

XAM2175 wrote:
I also can't help but think you're getting stuck on viewing these as viable domestic flights, which they are not and have never been, with the exception of vhtje's suggestion that the D-Pass system entered use during the Pilot's Strike when cabotage restrictions were suspended. Since then it has merely been an "if you really want to" option that QF have kept around.


If Qantas sells MEL-PER-LHR as only an international flight - in the same way that MEL-DXB-LHR is only an international flight - then there isn't a problem. It may be a bummer for those, like me, who dislike flying straight through and always have a stopover for two or three days at the intermediate point, but I expect I could cope.

But there are some assumptions in that. The MEL-PER leg would have to be fairly full to make it worth while, at least to the same extent that MEL-DXB is, so if that's your suggestion of what's going to happen, it doesn't leave a lot of room for additional pax from PER to LHR. Maybe that's what they want, maybe it is just another route MEL-LHR with, effectively, a refuelling stop at PER.

That isn't how they're selling it at the moment, though. The original Qantas press release doesn't mention MEL.

http://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media- ... to-london/

QANTAS TO FLY NON-STOP PERTH TO LONDON

And since - I assume - they want to leave some room on the plane for SYD pax who want to fly to London via PER, or ADL pax, they'd need room on the flight to accommodate them and they can't do that if PER-LHR is full of MEL originating pax.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... dreamliner

"Qantas to Fly Direct Perth-London in 17 Hours With Dreamliner

Qantas expects some customers on Australia’s east coast to fly to Perth to pick up the non-stop London service."


I note that it says from the East Coast, not just MEL, so I have no idea what they are planning to do, but it sure sounds to as if they expect domestic feed from the East Coast at PER to LHR, which would mean either they're all going to travel as D pax or the planes are going to be half empty.

XAM2175 wrote:
I do also genuinely believe that this arrangement is superior for the genuine international passenger.


As opposed to the "not genuine" international passenger? LOL.

I've already given an opinion on that. I am more concerned with Australia's security than the fact that incoming pax may have to collect their bags twice.

And of course, you may be right in all you say. But I don't have to like it.

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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:33 am

XAM2175 wrote:
I don't really see any vast conflict between my description and the one given by Gemuser, because we're describing the same process but from what sounds like slightly different experiences at different airports.

I also can't help but think you're getting stuck on viewing these as viable domestic flights, which they are not and have never been, with the exception of vhtje's suggestion that the D-Pass system entered use during the Pilot's Strike when cabotage restrictions were suspended. Since then it has merely been an "if you really want to" option that QF have kept around.

It's worth noting that the D-Pass system isn't at use at all at the moment because no airline with domestic traffic rights in Australia is currently flying these tag sectors, and even when they were, the number of domestic passengers being carried was minuscule. JQ used to offer them on on the services between BNE and MEL when they had to rotate the 788 but often as not they'd be cancelled and sent empty because nobody wanted to go through the extra hassle for no benefit UNLESS they were making an international connection at either end AND knew that flying the tag made it easier.

The D-Pass procedure - in my experience, anyway - is not overly complicated but it is more effort than just taking a bog-standard domestic. A D-Pass passenger is subject to the exact same security screening as a true international passenger. A D-Pass passenger must present at exit immigration to be identified and have their boarding pass stamped. Gemuser says in SYD there was a priority line for this; at BNE there wasn't. A D-Pass passenger on arrival must present at inbound immigration to be identified again and their boarding pass will be stamped again. At SYD there is a priority line for this. The D-Pass passenger then collects their luggage and enters the queue for customs and quarantine like any other passenger, whereupon the C&Q staff have the right to send the D-passenger for the same scrutiny as any other passenger. There is no dedicated bypass arrangement - it is at the discretion of the screeners.

Hell, I arrived from LHR once and was sent past all the screening apart from the baggage X-ray. When I asked to have my carry-on bag hand-screened on the basis I had a lot of unprocessed film in it, I was simply handed it back without it even being opened and sent to the exit.

I respect your long experience in these matters hugely, but I fear we might be coming at this from opposing angles without meaning to. I view the carriage of D-passengers on this service as being limited mainly to people who really want to fly the 789 over a 738 or A332. The loads may be such that D-seats aren't even available with any sort of regularity, particularly if this service replaces the current QF9/10 arrangement and even more so if the timings are better.

I do also genuinely believe that this arrangement is superior for the genuine international passenger.


Actually D-Pass is still in use at the moment, once or twice a week with JQ still doing it from BNE on 787s, and the CX BNE-CNS/CNS-BNE leg still gets domestic only pax (yes I know you can't book that flight independently but pax who have purchased a round trip with CX can book it and fly it domestically without continuing on that day using d-pass). And at BNE there is still a priority line for it at both outwards and inwards immigration (when they know there is expected domestic traffic), and the D-Pass does exempt passengers from customs and quarantine, unless they have reasons to be suspicious of you of course!
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:27 am

I reckon the best idea would be to position the 787 into Perth via a domestic flight in place of the regular a330, that way an a330 could be freed up and flown elsewhere, meanwhile QF could begin the actual flight number in Melbourne on a MEL-PER-LHR routing but the MEL-PER sector is on a 737 carrying the people who originate in MEL who don't wish on going to customs/immigration in Perth
 
ozglobal
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:36 pm

luftaom wrote:
Lovely bit of political rent seeking by QF to get the WA government to cough up $14 million of taxpayers' money. They are masters at this. Their recent strategy of backgrounding certain media organisations, getting lots of free airtime and whipping up public desire for 'how great will this be' - all whilst trying to get the WA government a few months out from an election to back a private enterprise with public cash. Well played ... very well played.


I hope the WA government negotiated to get their public money back when QF decides to cancel this service for "operational reasons."
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
airbazar
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:04 pm

mariner wrote:
XAM2175 wrote:
Oh yes, it is cumbersome for the domestic passengers, because they're subject to international security regulations (nudoscopy, LAG rules, etc), earlier check-in times (QF specify 60 minutes for domestic passengers departing international terminals, rather than 30 for standard domestic), and full border controls at both ends.


If I have to go through all that crap flying domestically MEL-PER, I think I'll avoid Qantas and the idea of domestic pax going through customs inspection of luggage is somewhat ludicrous, but hey, that's Australia.
I prefer the American system - when you're coming into the country you're coming into the country and all the processes are done then - and I'm surprised by what you describe, especially with regard to eco-control.


It's not like that is the standard process for all domestic operations. You still have a choice.
But I have to disagree. Having to collect bags and wait in some times long customs and immigration lines leads to far too many missed connections. I would much rather clear it at the very end but that's just not a feasible alternative in the U.S.

mariner wrote:
But I must be a very old-fashioned Australian because I thought this was about the security - especially the bio-security - of Australia, not the convenience to passengers.
I'm old enough to remember when we all had to sit in the cabin and be sprayed with insecticide when we arrived at an Australian entry port.

So am I. My guess is that they trust the boarding airport and care far more about what's in the hold than what's in the passenger cabin.

Keep in mind that with regards to customs, that is how it works just about everywhere else in the world. In the EU, only immigration is cleared at the first point of entry. Customs is done at the last point of entry. So from a customs point of view you always have this mingling on intra-EU flights. Of course the EU doesn't care very much about "eco-control" :)

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