coolian2
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:27 am

We all know this will be SYD-PER-LHR.

Sydney Airlines doesn't really have another option.
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/CRJ-700/-900
 
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LionelHutz
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:31 am

Hmmm, if in all of this QF9 / 10 becomes simply MEL-DXB-MEL or is dropped for an EK codeshare it saves having to give up the undoubtedly nice income being generated on the QF slots at LHR that are leased to BA. :dollarsign:
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:35 am

If connections with are a priority, the timing would have to be something like this:

Depart PER 10pm arrive LHR 7am +1
Depart LHR 9:30am arrive PER 9:30am +1

The plane could do a RT to Adelaide giving ADL a direct flight to LHR.

If connections in PER aren't important then you could flip the times of day and leave LHR and arrive PER at 8:30pm, leave Perth at 9am to arrive LHR at 6pm. The 789 could still do a SYD or MEL red eye but who is going to want to book that through flight? A brain scrambling 4:30hr red eye after a 15 hour flight?
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:23 am

There are some advantages for those traveling from the east coast via Perth:
To London: first leg is domestic so check in time is later and don't have to go through immigration, this is done while transiting through Perth. This is worth at least an hour.
From London: immigration will be handled in Perth. The last leg would be domestic so saves time exiting the airport
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Andy33
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:20 am

ikramerica wrote:
If connections with are a priority, the timing would have to be something like this:

Depart PER 10pm arrive LHR 7am +1
Depart LHR 9:30am arrive PER 9:30am +1

The plane could do a RT to Adelaide giving ADL a direct flight to LHR.

If connections in PER aren't important then you could flip the times of day and leave LHR and arrive PER at 8:30pm, leave Perth at 9am to arrive LHR at 6pm. The 789 could still do a SYD or MEL red eye but who is going to want to book that through flight? A brain scrambling 4:30hr red eye after a 15 hour flight?


But LHR slots are timed. QF have four arrivals slots, the ones used for QF1 from SYD/DXB (06:50) and QF9 from MEL/DXB (12:40), and the two leased to BA. Similarly there are four departure slots, 20:45 for QF2 to DXB/SYD, 11:55 for QF10 to DXB/MEL, plus two leased to BA. At the moment the SYD and MEL flights interwork to reduce time on the ground at LHR.
Hopefully someone will know the timings of the leased slots, as these and the two pairs of slots currently being used are the only ones available to QF, short of trading slots with another friendly airline or buying on the open market. QF can't just pick times that suit them.
 
soectre99
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:49 am

I don't think DRW flights will have any influence. When we commuted there from Europe over the years, it was honestly easier to hop on JQ to SIN, then BA/QF(pre 2013) to LHR. They also have the MH option now.

QF will have not issues filling the seat IMO. Perth has a huge expat-Brit population, as does the UK with Perthians. This flight would make a week-long trip viable for these people. They will eat this flight up.

Then there is also Rio Tinto and BHP's London office, BP, plus countless other major financial institutions with invested interest in the WA mining & energy market.

A no-brainer really.. Wait for the follow up with CDG/FRA/FCO
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:59 am

QF had 3 pre 0700 arrivals into LHR and a lunchtime one. There were 2 midday 1200-1300 departures and 2 2130-2230 departures.

Not sure of the timing for PER but would be a 2200 departure get to LHR at 0700ish I think with a 1200 departure getting to PER at midnight, not sure that's the best ex LHR, but saves aircraft down time.

No idea really will be interesting to see how they schedule it.
coolian2 wrote:
We all know this will be SYD-PER-LHR.

Sydney Airlines doesn't really have another option.


Pretty sure they will do 787 mx in MEL so ex MEL seems likely initially. Anything could happen. Especially if they drop one A380 flight to LHR I'd say ex MEL with the A380 ex SYD-DXB.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:01 am

Andy33 wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
If connections with are a priority, the timing would have to be something like this:

Depart PER 10pm arrive LHR 7am +1
Depart LHR 9:30am arrive PER 9:30am +1

The plane could do a RT to Adelaide giving ADL a direct flight to LHR.

If connections in PER aren't important then you could flip the times of day and leave LHR and arrive PER at 8:30pm, leave Perth at 9am to arrive LHR at 6pm. The 789 could still do a SYD or MEL red eye but who is going to want to book that through flight? A brain scrambling 4:30hr red eye after a 15 hour flight?


But LHR slots are timed. QF have four arrivals slots, the ones used for QF1 from SYD/DXB (06:50) and QF9 from MEL/DXB (12:40), and the two leased to BA. Similarly there are four departure slots, 20:45 for QF2 to DXB/SYD, 11:55 for QF10 to DXB/MEL, plus two leased to BA. At the moment the SYD and MEL flights interwork to reduce time on the ground at LHR.
Hopefully someone will know the timings of the leased slots, as these and the two pairs of slots currently being used are the only ones available to QF, short of trading slots with another friendly airline or buying on the open market. QF can't just pick times that suit them.


I would say that if the MEL flight is dropped we would see QF1 retimed to depart later from SYD and arrive at LHR and 1240 and depart at its normal time while the PER flight would land at LHR at 7am and depart at 1155am, however if the MEL flight is kept QF will likely have to keep 2 aircraft on the ground all day as the 2 leased slots are early morning arrivals and evening departures from LHR

BA leased the 2 slot pairs from the 25/3/2012, below is the schedule of QF's operation into LHR in October 2011. The slots were discussed in the Australian Aviation thread a few months ago and unfortunately when I looked for QF's schedule at the time this is the closest one I could find.

QF1 SYD 1755 - 2315 BKK 45+1 - 700+1 LHR
QF2 LHR 2215 - 540+1 BKK 1710+1 - 615+2 SYD

QF9 MEL1630 - 2120 SIN 2305 - 540+1 LHR
QF10 LHR 2130 - 1730+1 SIN 1945+1 - 600+2 MEL

QF29 MEL 2350 - 550+1 HKG 735+1 - 1330+1 LHR
QF30 LHR 2230 - 1720+1 HKG 1855+1 - 655+1 MEL

QF31 SYD 1710 - 2330 SIN 2359 - 635+1 LHR
QF32 LHR 1205 - 755+1 SIN 940+1 - 2020+1 SYD
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:05 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
Not sure of the timing for PER but would be a 2200 departure get to LHR at 0700ish I think with a 1200 departure getting to PER at midnight, not sure that's the best ex LHR, but saves aircraft down time.



A 12noon departure from LHR would get into 12pm the following day, not at midnight
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:07 am

So this tweet seems to suggest a daily double between PER and LHR?

https://twitter.com/ColinBarnett/status ... 3374363648

Or has the WA premier just included the return flight in that number? :P

Thinking about if more I don't get the idea raised in AusBT http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-to-axe-m ... 80-flights that QF 9 / 10 MEL-DXB-LHR will be dropped due to being unable to support the increased number of QF seats to LHR.

Why drop 14 F, 64 J, 35 Y+ and 371 Y seats to accommodate 42 J, 28 Y+ and 166 Y seats for a PER-LHR service? Even if EK adds another codeshare to MEL? :?
Or do they plan to do a daily double out of PER for a slight bump in J and Y+ and a slight decrease in Y seats to LHR?
That would require 4 x 789's whilst only freeing up 2 x A388's.

Ahhh, ABC news just reported it will use 4 x 789's, daily double! :shock:
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:07 am

qf789 wrote:
1. Delhi-San Francisco (8,159nm*) operated by Air India with Boeing 777-200LR (*Pacific Ocean routing eastwards from Delhi only)

DEL-SFO is nowhere remotely near that length, and I doubt any routing they're taking is increasing the distance by nearly 1,500nm.


globalcabotage wrote:
And MEL-DFW & SYD-ORD are in line for the 789. Hope to see it happen!

SYD-ORD with a 789 is more of an AvGeek fantasy than anything that's likely to be seriously contemplated.
It's more than 700nm longer than SFO-SIN, which itself already pushes the 789 to the limits.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:08 am

ikramerica wrote:
If connections with are a priority, the timing would have to be something like this:

Depart PER 10pm arrive LHR 7am +1
Depart LHR 9:30am arrive PER 9:30am +1

The plane could do a RT to Adelaide giving ADL a direct flight to LHR.

If connections in PER aren't important then you could flip the times of day and leave LHR and arrive PER at 8:30pm, leave Perth at 9am to arrive LHR at 6pm. The 789 could still do a SYD or MEL red eye but who is going to want to book that through flight? A brain scrambling 4:30hr red eye after a 15 hour flight?



The 9am departure would appeal to me as I hate long haul flights that arrive early am, and hotel at the other end does not allow check in till early pm. plus i dont sleep on flights so a view would be nice although 40% would be water . Trouble is many from eastern states would have to red eye or overnight in Perth
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:21 am

LAX772LR wrote:
qf789 wrote:
1. Delhi-San Francisco (8,159nm*) operated by Air India with Boeing 777-200LR (*Pacific Ocean routing eastwards from Delhi only)

DEL-SFO is nowhere remotely near that length, and I doubt any routing they're taking is increasing the distance by nearly 1,500nm.

Except it is. AI flies over the pacific on the outbound leg to make use of jetstreams, causing the flight to be well over 9000mi (actual distance flown) vs about 7702mi great circle route...
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AIC ... /VIDP/KSFO
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:28 am

qf789 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
Not sure of the timing for PER but would be a 2200 departure get to LHR at 0700ish I think with a 1200 departure getting to PER at midnight, not sure that's the best ex LHR, but saves aircraft down time.



A 12noon departure from LHR would get into 12pm the following day, not at midnight


Ah right maybe it will be something like that then?!

LionelHutz wrote:
So this tweet seems to suggest a daily double between PER and LHR?

https://twitter.com/ColinBarnett/status ... 3374363648

Or has the WA premier just included the return flight in that number? :P

Thinking about if more I don't get the idea raised in AusBT http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-to-axe-m ... 80-flights that QF 9 / 10 MEL-DXB-LHR will be dropped due to being unable to support the increased number of QF seats to LHR.

Why drop 14 F, 64 J, 35 Y+ and 371 Y seats to accommodate 42 J, 28 Y+ and 166 Y seats for a PER-LHR service? Even if EK adds another codeshare to MEL? :?
Or do they plan to do a daily double out of PER for a slight bump in J and Y+ and a slight decrease in Y seats to LHR?
That would require 4 x 789's whilst only freeing up 2 x A388's.

Ahhh, ABC news just reported it will use 4 x 789's, daily double! :shock:


I'd be very surprised if it launched double daily or else QF would have said so themselves.

As to why they would reduce seats into LHR QF have said while the route has improved it is a tough route to make money on with 30 plus airlines doing one stop. It's a yield issue for QF and the A380 could do better elsewhere.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:53 am

rebr wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
qf789 wrote:
1. Delhi-San Francisco (8,159nm*) operated by Air India with Boeing 777-200LR (*Pacific Ocean routing eastwards from Delhi only)

DEL-SFO is nowhere remotely near that length, and I doubt any routing they're taking is increasing the distance by nearly 1,500nm.

Except it is. AI flies over the pacific on the outbound leg to make use of jetstreams, causing the flight to be well over 9000mi (actual distance flown) vs about 7702mi great circle route...
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AIC ... /VIDP/KSFO


Every route is longer than the great circle distance. Just taking this one into account but not for others makes no sense. I took SQ21 EWR-SIN and we flew straight over London (I saw Millennium Dome for the first time) and it must have been over 10,230mi but with strong winds it still took the same time as other times when it went close to the North Pole. So does this make SIN-EWR suddenly more than 10000mi vs around 9500mi great circle?
Same for SFO-SIN: it goes much more southerly than SIN-SFO and will be often over 9000mi to avoid the strong headwinds you can find more notherly. SFO-SIn can go close to Hawaii and then it is about 9200mi.
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 742 743 744 752 762 772 773 77W 789 A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:04 am

LionelHutz wrote:
So this tweet seems to suggest a daily double between PER and LHR?

https://twitter.com/ColinBarnett/status ... 3374363648

Or has the WA premier just included the return flight in that number? :P

Thinking about if more I don't get the idea raised in AusBT http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-to-axe-m ... 80-flights that QF 9 / 10 MEL-DXB-LHR will be dropped due to being unable to support the increased number of QF seats to LHR.

Why drop 14 F, 64 J, 35 Y+ and 371 Y seats to accommodate 42 J, 28 Y+ and 166 Y seats for a PER-LHR service? Even if EK adds another codeshare to MEL? :?
Or do they plan to do a daily double out of PER for a slight bump in J and Y+ and a slight decrease in Y seats to LHR?
That would require 4 x 789's whilst only freeing up 2 x A388's.

Ahhh, ABC news just reported it will use 4 x 789's, daily double! :shock:


I think QF is being bold with this route - double daily is idiotic to start a route with. Has any carrier ever started a route double daily?

I'm in two minds about MEL-LHR 380 usage may make sense - to be honest march 2018 is along way away, I'm sure QF maybe not even be close to a decision. This 789 announcement is so early to leverage off all the public discussion around the Perth airport. The AusBT article is based on a leak from QF probs just an idea that was drifted and a low level person wants their 5mins. If the sales are that's poor and the route was bleeding money they'd pull it now. I still feel QF should be able to generate enough demand ex-MEL & PER to support both.

Plus the investment in their brand new lounge in LHR indicates growth to me, not a reduction in capacity.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:10 am

smi0006 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Qantas Press Release

http://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media- ... to-london/

Flights to start in March 2018
QF's flights to AKL & SIN will also operate from T3/T4
Airfare's will go on sale in April 2017


Makes sense to me!! Well done by all! Interesting Qantas list this as world third longest flight. And their modelling showes some connections from the east coast and Adelaide.

Makes sense for Perth airport they now can unlock more international capacity in T1 in peak, when they were struggling. With QF agreeing to move in 2025 pushes back their investment timeline a couple of years.

Hope we see a MEL-DFW; MEL-PER-LHR-PER-MEL-DFW-MEL


To be honest I don't think it will ease congestion at T1 as once construction starts on T5 which should begin next year, T1 will be down one gate plus most likely the 2 parking bays next to it as well
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:13 am

LionelHutz wrote:
Ahhh, ABC news just reported it will use 4 x 789's, daily double! :shock:

Not on the east coast! They just said "the flight will operate daily, using 4 Dreamliners" That, of course, does not make any sense. Depending on the schedule and layover times it could take up to 3 frames, more likely 2.5 frames as is done with the A380s currently. Four aircraft would NOT be enough to run double daily, that would take at least 5.
I just chalk it up to the usual media carelessness.

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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:15 am

rebr wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
qf789 wrote:
1. Delhi-San Francisco (8,159nm*) operated by Air India with Boeing 777-200LR (*Pacific Ocean routing eastwards from Delhi only)

DEL-SFO is nowhere remotely near that length, and I doubt any routing they're taking is increasing the distance by nearly 1,500nm.

Except it is. AI flies over the pacific on the outbound leg to make use of jetstreams, causing the flight to be well over 9000mi (actual distance flown) vs about 7702mi great circle route...
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AIC ... /VIDP/KSFO

First, if flight aware is the source for this, then I definitely don't believe the numbers are accurate, as it screws that sorta thing up all the time.

Second, I'm well aware that flights deviate far beyond the GC, but does the person who listed that think that DEL-SFO is the only flight in the world to do so? Why list a supposed 1500nm+ deviation for that flight, but list the GC for all the others? That's more my objection.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:17 am

Gemuser wrote:
LionelHutz wrote:
Ahhh, ABC news just reported it will use 4 x 789's, daily double! :shock:

Not on the east coast! They just said "the flight will operate daily, using 4 Dreamliners" That, of course, does not make any sense. Depending on the schedule and layover times it could take up to 3 frames, more likely 2.5 frames as is done with the A380s currently. Four aircraft would NOT be enough to run double daily, that would take at least 5.
I just chalk it up to the usual media carelessness.

Gemuser


I agree with that. The only reports I could find of the route going double daily are the media outlets that wouldn't be able to tell between a 737 and an A380
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:22 am

Gemuser wrote:
LionelHutz wrote:
Ahhh, ABC news just reported it will use 4 x 789's, daily double! :shock:

Not on the east coast! They just said "the flight will operate daily, using 4 Dreamliners" That, of course, does not make any sense. Depending on the schedule and layover times it could take up to 3 frames, more likely 2.5 frames as is done with the A380s currently. Four aircraft would NOT be enough to run double daily, that would take at least 5.
I just chalk it up to the usual media carelessness.

Gemuser


It does seem strange. To clarify they said 4 x Dreamliners, not explicity "daily double".

Approximately 17 hours each way should give time, even with a layover off a few hours in LHR (depending on what slots they use)?
A high utilisation factor no doubt.

I can accept the news mucking it up, but the Premier of WA did tweet 14 flights a week as well. :?
Maybe creative interpretation with the return flight :P
The ABC didn't just pull the figure of 4 dreamliners out of nowhere though. :?
Last edited by LionelHutz on Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:27 am

Interesting day to announce QF's 1st Dream)liner route!
With time I'd say QF will establish a "spoke" hub on the west coast re-entering markets such as FRA & CDG. If PER-LHR is successful 8 Dream)liners ain't going to cut it.

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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:43 am

Something doesn't make sense to me. Currently the longest route for a 787-9 is United Airlines UA-1 at 7,339 nm (16hr, 20mins flying time) but this route is 18+ hours flying time. How do they stretch the flying time to accommodate this? They will have to drastically cut weight (seats and passengers) to maximize fuel burn to fly this long. The price of a ticket will have to be astronomical to cover the cost! No way will they make a sustained profit. No ULR route ever has...
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:47 am

I am so beyond happy this has eventuated! Where have all the nay-sayers who were so adamant it would NEVER happen got to?
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:52 am

ACATROYAL wrote:
Something doesn't make sense to me. Currently the longest route for a 787-9 is United Airlines UA-1 at 7,339 nm (16hr, 20mins flying time) but this route is 18+ hours flying time. How do they stretch the flying time to accommodate this? They will have to drastically cut weight (seats and passengers) to maximize fuel burn to fly this long. The price of a ticket will have to be astronomical to cover the cost! No way will they make a sustained profit. No ULR route ever has...


The flight wont be 18+ hours, that was just inflated by the media. The flight will take about 17 hours flying PER-LHR and as a little as 15 hours on the return LHR-PER sector

The 14,498km flight, which will take about 17 hours on the Perth-London leg and 15 hours coming back, will be the first ever non-stop flight between Australia and Europe



http://www.airlineratings.com/news/949/ ... ad-in-2018
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:58 am

LionelHutz wrote:

It does seem strange. To clarify they said 4 x Dreamliners, not explicity "daily double".

Approximately 17 hours each way should give time, even with a layover off a few hours in LHR (depending on what slots they use)?
A high utilisation factor no doubt.

I can accept the news mucking it up, but the Premier of WA did tweet 14 flights a week as well. :?
Maybe creative interpretation with the return flight :P
The ABC didn't just pull the figure of 4 dreamliners out of nowhere though. :?


On the top of the press release from the state government it says the following

14 direct flights between the two cities every week on 236-seat Dreamliner


So I would take that as 7 flights to LHR and another 7 from LHR. Obviously news outlets such as the ABC have picked that up and assumed double daily flights

https://news.wa.gov.au/deal-done-on-per ... p-flights/
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:06 pm

qf789 wrote:
LionelHutz wrote:

It does seem strange. To clarify they said 4 x Dreamliners, not explicity "daily double".

Approximately 17 hours each way should give time, even with a layover off a few hours in LHR (depending on what slots they use)?
A high utilisation factor no doubt.

I can accept the news mucking it up, but the Premier of WA did tweet 14 flights a week as well. :?
Maybe creative interpretation with the return flight :P
The ABC didn't just pull the figure of 4 dreamliners out of nowhere though. :?


On the top of the press release from the state government it says the following

14 direct flights between the two cities every week on 236-seat Dreamliner


So I would take that as 7 flights to LHR and another 7 from LHR. Obviously news outlets such as the ABC have picked that up and assumed double daily flights

https://news.wa.gov.au/deal-done-on-per ... p-flights/


I'm surprised the ABC did the maths on that (incorrectly I guess) to create the figure of 4 x 789's, rather than just parrot the news release. Oh, well.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:30 pm

qf789 wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
LionelHutz wrote:
Ahhh, ABC news just reported it will use 4 x 789's, daily double! :shock:

Not on the east coast! They just said "the flight will operate daily, using 4 Dreamliners" That, of course, does not make any sense. Depending on the schedule and layover times it could take up to 3 frames, more likely 2.5 frames as is done with the A380s currently. Four aircraft would NOT be enough to run double daily, that would take at least 5.
I just chalk it up to the usual media carelessness.

Gemuser


I agree with that. The only reports I could find of the route going double daily are the media outlets that wouldn't be able to tell between a 737 and an A380



Premier of western Australia also quoted x 2 daily, who was directly involved with the negotiations.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:31 pm

qf789 wrote:
Qantas and the operators of Perth Airport are poised to strike a deal within days to allow the first non-stop flights from Australia to Europe through the airline’s domestic terminal.

With Qantas boss Alan Joyce set to fly to WA tomorrow to make an announcement alongside airport chiefs and Premier Colin Barnett, it is understood the airline and Perth Airport are close to finalising the landmark agreement.


https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/ ... ngs/#page1

First flights have previously been reported to start in April 2018


Keen to know if this will be at the 'slot expense' of the A380s from MEL and SYD via DXB or if this is something they can start independently. If so, what of an extension to BNE?
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:00 pm

ndhair37 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Qantas and the operators of Perth Airport are poised to strike a deal within days to allow the first non-stop flights from Australia to Europe through the airline’s domestic terminal.

With Qantas boss Alan Joyce set to fly to WA tomorrow to make an announcement alongside airport chiefs and Premier Colin Barnett, it is understood the airline and Perth Airport are close to finalising the landmark agreement.


https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/ ... ngs/#page1

First flights have previously been reported to start in April 2018


Keen to know if this will be at the 'slot expense' of the A380s from MEL and SYD via DXB or if this is something they can start independently. If so, what of an extension to BNE?


QF have 2 LHR slots currently leased to BA... There was another article stating QF cutting the MEL-DXB-LHR in favour of PER-LHR, I highly doubt it and wouldn't read to much into it.

EK413
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Bluebird191
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:09 pm

EK413 wrote:

QF have 2 LHR slots currently leased to BA... There was another article stating QF cutting the MEL-DXB-LHR in favour of PER-LHR, I highly doubt it and wouldn't read to much into it.

EK413


You sure? My sources have regularly told me that the current QF9/10 A380 flight MEL-DXB-LHR is highly favoured by staff using their travel benefits for non-rev travel to DXB and LHR, simply because they know they can get a seat. Loads are consistently much lower than on QF1/2, but I don't know the pax load average or what they're getting for the flights.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:25 pm

ACATROYAL wrote:
Something doesn't make sense to me. Currently the longest route for a 787-9 is United Airlines UA-1 at 7,339 nm (16hr, 20mins flying time) but this route is 18+ hours flying time. How do they stretch the flying time to accommodate this? They will have to drastically cut weight (seats and passengers) to maximize fuel burn to fly this long. The price of a ticket will have to be astronomical to cover the cost! No way will they make a sustained profit. No ULR route ever has...

SFO-SIN is an 18 hour flight, and the Winter is just starting:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL1 ... /KSFO/WSSS
PER-LHR will be at least 500nm longer however:
1) The head winds won't be nearly as disruptive.
2) QF will have fewer seats.
The weaker winds will probably cancel out the extra distance and we'll end up with a 17-18 hour flight, which we already know from SFO-SIN that it can be done.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:45 pm

It would be a shame to kill the Mel - LHR A380, the Perth 787 should be Qantas third daily flight to LHR along with the current two A380's. I would rather stop in Singapore or Dubai then Perh on my way to the UK. Imagine if flying from LHR to Perth to continue on to Melbourne or Sydney passengers have to clear customs and re-check luggage, it sounds like the unfriendly States of America. Qantas should be selling the Perth to LHR 787-9 flights as the gateway to Western Australia not the gateway to all Australia.

"Nonstop to Australia" should not mean "one stop" to Sydney and Melbourne over Perth, what is the difference between that and changing in Singapore, Doha or Dubai? I love the idea of 787-9 but perhaps using them to open new North American routes is better, Miami or Chicago would be nice.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:53 pm

What no one (I think) has yet mentioned is if this may tempt BA or even VS to beat them to it as they already have the aircraft, and BA at least can draw significant European traffic and has a low density 787
 
AnsettB727
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:00 pm

This will be great for Europeans heading down under for their first visit, especially those Brits with friends/relatives in Perth. But as an east-coast Australian, you won't catch me flying to LHR via Perth. I don't want to go all the way over there to then change aircraft and keep flying another 17 hours.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:13 pm

jrfspa320 wrote:
What no one (I think) has yet mentioned is if this may tempt BA or even VS to beat them to it as they already have the aircraft, and BA at least can draw significant European traffic and has a low density 787


Not a chance with VS, but if BA see there's money to be made they may follow.

But BA would probably need onward codeshares on QF to support the route.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is whether QF launching PER-LHR will see onward codeshares with BA at LHR reinstated as almost all of these were removed when QF started codesharing with EK.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:15 pm

Another thing I find somewhat mildly interesting is that there will be no F cabin offered on LHR-PER - just due to the sector length I'm wondering if there would be a market for F (even if limited). Of course the 789 is quite small to have a 4-class cabin and I realize that it's probably not worth installing 4 F seats at the expense of 6-8 J.

To the naysayers above - pretty sure QF will have no trouble filling the pointy end - even from SYD/MEL, I'm sure QF loyalists will be more than happy to stay on QF metal the entire way to LHR. I cannot imagine being in Y for this duration, but QF service standards are pretty good so I'm sure they'll make the most of it. Curious to see what the new PE seat looks like. Wish QF well on this route - good on them for taking a chance on this!
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:58 pm

9w748capt wrote:
Another thing I find somewhat mildly interesting is that there will be no F cabin offered on LHR-PER - just due to the sector length I'm wondering if there would be a market for F (even if limited). Of course the 789 is quite small to have a 4-class cabin and I realize that it's probably not worth installing 4 F seats at the expense of 6-8 J.


While there probably is a market for F QF has decided to not have F for fleet simplification. There will be some routes which the 789 will be eventually be put on where F would not sell and to have F in a small subfleet of aircraft would not be ideal. During QF's restructuring program, fleet simplification was a big focus which saw the A330 fleet going from 6 configurations to 2 and the 744 fleet going from 8 configurations to 1 (currently there are 2 configurations on the 744, the 2 oldest still are 4 class and will be retired once the 789's come into the fleet)
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readytotaxi
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:23 pm

What is the Int arrival experience like at PER? Are there enough boarder staff and so on, better than SYD ?
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ikramerica
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:01 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
What is the Int arrival experience like at PER? Are there enough boarder staff and so on, better than SYD ?

They say it will be using the D terminal so none of that is relevant. When I was there QF had a good size lounge, but it would be overcrowded if this flight left at the same time as they MEL/SYD/BNE red eyes.
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:31 pm

ikramerica wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
What is the Int arrival experience like at PER? Are there enough boarder staff and so on, better than SYD ?

They say it will be using the D terminal so none of that is relevant. When I was there QF had a good size lounge, but it would be overcrowded if this flight left at the same time as they MEL/SYD/BNE red eyes.



Can you expand how using the D terminal will make the number of border staff irrelevant? Even if they are using a terminal that is used for domestic flights if the flight arrives internationally the passengers will still need to go through passport control and customs when arriving in Perth, right?
 
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Re: Qantas set to announce non-stop PER-LHR flights within days

Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:54 pm

scbriml wrote:
Weather and ATC restrictions could easily add more than that to any flight. Flights very often have to take sub-optimal routes.


I'm more than aware, go back and read the post I was originally responding to. DXB is not the most efficient stopover point between Australia and Europe.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:58 pm

Flight from Melbourne to London must be odds on to be cancelled or converted into Melbourne to Dubai return. The arrival time of the return leg in Melbourne is too late for any non Melbourne passengers to take a domestic flight into any curfew airports. So the London to Sydney flight is always full whilst the London to Melbourne flight seems to always have spare seats.

There is a large number of flyers who go from ADL to MEL or SYD to take the QF flights to Dubai. Most of these will now prefer to go through Perth.

QF would know the exact number of flyers from ADL who go via MEL and SYD and would have been able to factor this into their calculations. Taking a very rough guess I suggest this could be around 100 and maybe as many as 150 passengers per day. If they can recapture some of the flyers they are sending out via the daily direct EK flights from Adelaide to Dubai then the numbers for Perth could be even more promising.

QF used to run an a330 out of Adelaide to Singapore to link up with the a380 flights to London and many would transfer onto those flights (though they were not daily flights). So that possibly supports that QF can capture up to 200 seats out of ADL.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:53 pm

This might be attractive for those going between PER and the eastern US/Canada. Here are the GC distances:

PER-LHR-JFK: 12460 nm
PER-SYD-LAX-JFK: 12004 nm
PER-SYD-DFW-JFK: 12010 nm

So you would spend one more hour in an airplane, but have only one connection and clear customs at the final destination.

Distance wise, it is shorter to go via Asia:
PER-NRT-JFK: 11664 nm

However I am not sure how long the wait is in NRT to make a OneWorld connection to/from PER. NRT-JFK has good frequency but the other major eastern US markets such as BOS, IAD, and PHL have very limited or nonexistent OW service from NRT. Compare that to BA/AA from LHR with hourly flights to JFK and good frequency to BOS, IAD, etc. Assuming BA would codeshare, going via LHR could be more convenient or even faster if the schedules work out. It is only 2nm longer than PER-DXB-JFK on EK.
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ozglobal
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Re: Qantas set to announce non-stop PER-LHR flights within days

Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:39 pm

redroo wrote:
People like to bag Perth...

Nothing to do with Perth as a good or bad place: this is about geography and logistics and passenger experience vs economics.

More than 80% of the Australian market for the Kangaroo route live in the East. Perth is a transcontinental flight away. There is ZERO improvement in experience in flying MEL/SYD/BNE - PER - LHR vs MEL/SYD/BNE - HKG/SIN - LHR for example. Zero. I don't need to change terminal or clear immigration in HKG or SIN or DXB as some are claiming. SIN is approx 7 hrs from MEL, PER is around 4 at least. I have to change terminal in PER and checkin my luggage and clear Immigration. What for??? I can only assume QF are betting on high yield mining sector traffic to fill J at premium prices so that Y is almost a non-issue.
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mariner
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Re: Qantas set to announce non-stop PER-LHR flights within days

Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:53 pm

ozglobal wrote:
I have to change terminal in PER and checkin my luggage and clear Immigration. What for??? I can only assume QF are betting on high yield mining sector traffic to fill J at premium prices so that Y is almost a non-issue.


Except that you don't have to change terminal at PER. These flights will leave from the domestic terminal, which will be restructured:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-11/p ... 18/8110266

"Perth-London flights announced by Qantas for 2018

Mr Joyce said the airline's new 787 Dreamliner aircraft would be used on the route, which would operate from the domestic terminal at Perth Airport from March 2018.


The domestic terminal will also be used for the Qantas flights to SIN and the seasonal flights to AKL.

Qantas may well be betting on some high yield mining sector traffic, but I surely wouldn't dismiss VFR form the enormous British community in Perth, and I surely wouldn't ignore foreign tourism, for whom the flight is quite attractive.

A tourist can now arrive in Perth, see the sights of Western Australia - Monkey Mia and the dolphins, e.g. and even the Kimberleys - then go on to the rest of Australia and leave from MEL or SYD or BNE, all on one airline and without having to backtrack.

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ikramerica
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:58 pm

enzo011 wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
What is the Int arrival experience like at PER? Are there enough boarder staff and so on, better than SYD ?

They say it will be using the D terminal so none of that is relevant. When I was there QF had a good size lounge, but it would be overcrowded if this flight left at the same time as they MEL/SYD/BNE red eyes.



Can you expand how using the D terminal will make the number of border staff irrelevant? Even if they are using a terminal that is used for domestic flights if the flight arrives internationally the passengers will still need to go through passport control and customs when arriving in Perth, right?

anyone's experience is or staffing at the Perth Int terminal is irrelevant because they won't be using it. They will fly from the domestic terminal and staffing will be specifically done for the flight. It could be overstaffed or understaffed but we can't know until then.

It's like asking about the new FIS at LAX T2 based on people's experience with TBIT. Not directly correlated.
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:31 pm

The suggestion, unless I've totally misinterpreted everything thus far, is that the service will be MEL-PER-LHR and return, with a gate in what is currently PER's QF domestic terminal being configured for quick changes between domestic and international service.

My presumption is that the MEL-PER and PER-MEL legs will be treated as continuing sectors ("tags") rather than domestic connections and so they will depart from and arrive into MEL as international flights. Therefore passengers to and from MEL will go through customs and immigration there, and only passengers joining or leaving in PER will need the formalities performed there. Since it won't be at the current PER international terminal it's a bit harder to predict the experience.

I expect that QF are actively planning for a more than small amount of MEL-LHR v.v. demand on the service to offset yield concerns with the WA market, particularly as the J product on the 787 is generally held, based on the A330, to be better than that on the A380.

Using this service to the replace the current QF9 and 10 is something that seems implausible but at the same time quite reasonable. The QF/EK JV is metal-neutral, after all, so filling the MEL-DXB-LHR gap with an EK flight will only be problematic to people who would prefer QF metal AND who don't fancy going via PER for whatever reason (cue 787 9-abreast Y discussion). I also seem to recall that the current QF9/10 timing exists more to benefit A380 fleet utilisation and reliability figures than it does to best serve passenger demand, so completely freeing-up the A380s scheduled for that route is not necessarily a bad thing.

LHRFlyer wrote:
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is whether QF launching PER-LHR will see onward codeshares with BA at LHR reinstated as almost all of these were removed when QF started codesharing with EK.


That's actually a very interesting question. I'd take a guess though at it being more likely that passengers for not-LHR will continue to be sent through DXB, although perhaps a small set of QF codeshares to "major" Euro destinations would come back, and perhaps one or two UK domestics such as MAN and GLA. It'll depend a lot on how this flight fits into the QF-EK arrangement.
In the opposite direction, BA still maintain their code on certain QF SYD and SIN flights as feed to and from their LHR-SIN-SYD service, so it'll be interesting to see whether or not they throw a few on to and from PER.
 
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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:49 pm

XAM2175 wrote:
My presumption is that the MEL-PER and PER-MEL legs will be treated as continuing sectors ("tags") rather than domestic connections and so they will depart from and arrive into MEL as international flights. Therefore passengers to and from MEL will go through customs and immigration there, and only passengers joining or leaving in PER will need the formalities performed there. Since it won't be at the current PER international terminal it's a bit harder to predict the experience.


I don't read it that way. I've been flying internationally for seven decades and within my experience, you go through border control at your first port of entry into any country. There may be exceptions to this, but I've never found 'em.

It was certainly true at LAX, for example, and JFK, where there was a well-organised process for this. Arriving as an international, you'd go through immigration, pick up your bags and go through customs and immediately take your bags to a station for those bags, which were ticketed through, to be transferred to your onward domestic flight.

A couple of months ago, I flew into the EU, at CDG, and we went through border control there - no matter what onward connection anyone had.

So I assume that LHR pax bound for MEL will go through border control at PER. I'm not sure how else it could work, because I don't know how they could seperate the international pax on PER-MEL from the purely domestic pax. Someone carrying drugs or their person, e.g., or banned food stuffs, could hand them over to a domestic passenger.

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Re: Qantas announces non-stop PER-LHR flights

Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:26 pm

According to this article, QF is not only launching non-stop service between LHR and PER, but is also looking at non-stops between PER and CDG, FRA and FCO, all with the 787-9.
http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-to-fly-b ... early-2018
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