Airliners.net

Good! Now hopefully they get the ground handling figured out.

Outstanding news.

Still waiting for WOW Air to extend their PIT schedule past March. Most of their other N.A. schedules have already been extended.

Killer news. I always do my Berlin trips on Wednesdays. Definitely going to give this a shot next year.

flyPIT wrote:

Outstanding news.

Still waiting for WOW Air to extend their PIT schedule past March. Most of their other N.A. schedules have already been extended.

I checked the current cities. Only PIT, MIA, ORD, and SFO do not yet have schedules beyond March 2018. Larger aircraft juggling for these routes?

ConcourseZ wrote:

flyPIT wrote:

Outstanding news.

Still waiting for WOW Air to extend their PIT schedule past March. Most of their other N.A. schedules have already been extended.

I checked the current cities. Only PIT, MIA, ORD, and SFO do not yet have schedules beyond March 2018. Larger aircraft juggling for these routes?

Maybe for MIA (SFO is already an A330). So I don't see larger aircraft juggling for PIT or ORD but more an issue of deciding what frequency considering the slew of new destinations added in the Midwest. Considering the addition of CLE if WOW comes back with the same frequency at PIT I would consider it a win. Maybe we will be pleasantly surprised and see them go 6x weekly or daily during summer. WOW is certainly full of surprises.

Still thrilled about Condor. They will now offer more than double the capacity to PIT next year compared to this year.

Did a quick look at advance bookings on WOW for CLE and CVG. It looks like CLE gets 4x per week and so far the first two flights have no seats sold. CVG looks like 3x per week even though the calendar has it as daily. A few seats have been sold for the first two flights.

jetBlue upgauged their 10:30am arrival, flight 1485, the last 3 days to an A320, which was a nice surprise yesterday while spotting. It appears they're back to E190s tomorrow but jetBlue's scheduling seems a bit more volatile than most. Any chance this is a sign of something permanent given the increased competition on the route or was it just a holiday weekend change?

corkscrew wrote:

jetBlue upgauged their 10:30am arrival, flight 1485, the last 3 days to an A320, which was a nice surprise yesterday while spotting. It appears they're back to E190s tomorrow but jetBlue's scheduling seems a bit more volatile than most. Any chance this is a sign of something permanent given the increased competition on the route or was it just a holiday weekend change?

They have said before that BOS-PIT is one of their most profitable routes. It makes sense that we would eventually see that route stimulated enough to handling a mix of e190s and 320s. But the new competition from delta may push the prices down and hurt B6's profitability as well.

The Pittsburgh Regional Alliance is once again accompanying the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra on their European tour. Specifically they are in London to drum up UK investment in Pittsburgh with an emphasis on the energy industry.
http://www.pittsburghregion.org/pghlondon2017/

http://www.pittsburghregion.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/IntlStrengthsUK.pdf

The reason I mention it here is because the ACAA has sent representatives on these trips in the past, especially to London. Not sure if that is the case here though.

pitbosflyer wrote:

They have said before that BOS-PIT is one of their most profitable routes. It makes sense that we would eventually see that route stimulated enough to handling a mix of e190s and 320s. But the new competition from delta may push the prices down and hurt B6's profitability as well.

With B6 going up to 6x daily I doubt they would put A320's on the route, especially with DL entering the market on top of it. B6 really needs to start looking at PIT-JFK again. Still surprised WN didn't add PIT-BOS when they had the chance. Speaking of WN, PBI becomes the second market after PHL to be dropped since they began PIT well over 10 years ago.

flyPIT wrote:

Still surprised WN didn't add PIT-BOS when they had the chance. Speaking of WN, PBI becomes the second market after PHL to be dropped since they began PIT well over 10 years ago.

WN has never failed to disappoint me in PIT.

Interesting to see that the newly announced IND-CDG gets a deeper commitment in terms of off season flying than PIT-CDG. IND is absolutely booming of late with new service announcements both in terms of West Coast service and now Europe.

GSP psgr wrote:

Interesting to see that the newly announced IND-CDG gets a deeper commitment in terms of off season flying than PIT-CDG. IND is absolutely booming of late with new service announcements both in terms of West Coast service and now Europe.

PIT-CDG was also year round during the first two years as stipulated by the revenue guarantee. 4x weekly 757 at PIT vs. 3x weekly 767 at IND (which is out of 757 range). I'm curious if that 3x weekly at IND sticks after the two years. OTOH IND-CDG is a hub to hub route for FX so that 767 might come in handy although I'm not familiar enough with the FX pilot scope clause to know if this would be allowed.

Don't forget, IND has tons of DL FFers left over from NWA focus city days. The route makes perfect sense, seasonal or not.

Anyone know what this flight is about?
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BSK656/history/20170911/1505Z/BGSF/KPIT

ConcourseZ wrote:

Did a quick look at advance bookings on WOW for CLE and CVG. It looks like CLE gets 4x per week and so far the first two flights have no seats sold. CVG looks like 3x per week even though the calendar has it as daily. A few seats have been sold for the first two flights.

The seatmap is not a reflection of the amount of seats sold as most tickets don't include an assigned seat. There's no way to see the future load from public information.

flyPIT wrote:

Anyone know what this flight is about?
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BSK656/history/20170911/1505Z/BGSF/KPIT

Interesting! Nothing list in terms of "scheduled departure" on Flight Aware for it....

Cush wrote:

flyPIT wrote:

Anyone know what this flight is about?
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BSK656/history/20170911/1505Z/BGSF/KPIT

Interesting! Nothing list in terms of "scheduled departure" on Flight Aware for it....

Looks like whomever chartered this went up 6 days ago:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BSK655/history/20170905/1235Z/KPIT/BGSF

GSP psgr wrote:

I was trying to think of what an Alaska schedule at PIT might look like, and will take a stab at it:

-1x daily LAX
-4w SEA
-3w SFO
-1w SAN (weekend svc)

Maybe 4 cities to start with isn't realistic, but two or three might be.

Also, if Delta wanted to play a bit bigger at PIT, I could see them adding something like 2x BOS, 2x RDU, 1x CVG, 1x LAX (maybe they can make it work where everyone else has failed).

Do you think PIT-DAL would work for AS?

jeffrey1970 wrote:

GSP psgr wrote:

I was trying to think of what an Alaska schedule at PIT might look like, and will take a stab at it:

-1x daily LAX
-4w SEA
-3w SFO
-1w SAN (weekend svc)

Maybe 4 cities to start with isn't realistic, but two or three might be.

Also, if Delta wanted to play a bit bigger at PIT, I could see them adding something like 2x BOS, 2x RDU, 1x CVG, 1x LAX (maybe they can make it work where everyone else has failed).

Do you think PIT-DAL would work for AS?

Doesn't AS start with SEA daily service first by itself for most cities and add from there after they see how that goes? I would imagine they would treat PIT the same way.

I am pretty sure that is how it started at MCI and STL before they later added others.
BNA/IND/MSY only has SEA, although they adding Virgin to SFO
MKE only has SEA year round (PDX seasonal)
SAT only has SEA
Omaha had SEA only first.

The website for the proposed reconfiguration plan is up-

http://pittransformed.com/

Vesty wrote:

The website for the proposed reconfiguration plan is up-

http://pittransformed.com/

Looks like it would be pretty nice. Looks expensive too but maybe it's worth it. I haven't been to PIT since 2004 so does it need it?

AirportRival wrote:

Vesty wrote:

The website for the proposed reconfiguration plan is up-

http://pittransformed.com/

Looks like it would be pretty nice. Looks expensive too but maybe it's worth it. I haven't been to PIT since 2004 so does it need it?

Does it "NEED IT" probably not. That being said it would probably give us a leg up. I was at IND this weekend and it struck me at how beautiful and modern their airport is. With that airport being my first and last impression of the city. It did alot to make me see the city as a thriving former rust belt city (maybe even more so than Pittsburgh). All that happened even though I know on paper Indianapolis is pretty similar to us. So yes I do think some efforts beyond new flooring could really help. Our airport is is starting to look very dated, and not a great representation of who Pittsburgh now is.

The cost is the biggest roadblock in my mind. We are just getting to the point of paying off the current building and thus letting us cut landing fees for the airlines.

flyPIT wrote:

GSP psgr wrote:

Interesting to see that the newly announced IND-CDG gets a deeper commitment in terms of off season flying than PIT-CDG. IND is absolutely booming of late with new service announcements both in terms of West Coast service and now Europe.

PIT-CDG was also year round during the first two years as stipulated by the revenue guarantee. 4x weekly 757 at PIT vs. 3x weekly 767 at IND (which is out of 757 range). I'm curious if that 3x weekly at IND sticks after the two years. OTOH IND-CDG is a hub to hub route for FX so that 767 might come in handy although I'm not familiar enough with the FX pilot scope clause to know if this would be allowed.

It is actually 3x weekly during the winter and daily during the summer. The subsidies on this route are strange. Instead of revenue guarantees, DL makes more money the more tickets they sell on the route. The Indiana payouts go up instead of down if the route does well.

Vesty wrote:

The website for the proposed reconfiguration plan is up-

http://pittransformed.com/

Certainly a bold move, but I'm excited about it. PIT will actually be a (partially) a modern looking and feeling airport. I'm glad their plan was not simply to demolish the ends of A and B, though it looks like it's still in the cards. New parking area looks a little smaller, no?

Their PDF has diagrams of all the "alternatives" they considered. I was curious to see them.
http://pittransformed.com/wp-content/up ... -Final.pdf

I couldn't tell, when will this construction actually start? It says it will open in 2023...

Video of the new plan. Looks like crap in my opinion. 0% interesting or inspiring architecturally.

https://vimeo.com/233158810

PITflier wrote:

Video of the new plan. Looks like crap in my opinion. 0% interesting or inspiring architecturally.

https://vimeo.com/233158810

To clarify I'm not against the clean modern look, this just doesn't stand out to me at all.

Agreed it could be pushed a bit further. Maybe these are just preliminary? A lot of these large projects go through big changes.

PITexpress wrote:

Vesty wrote:

The website for the proposed reconfiguration plan is up-

http://pittransformed.com/

Certainly a bold move, but I'm excited about it. PIT will actually be a (partially) a modern looking and feeling airport. I'm glad their plan was not simply to demolish the ends of A and B, though it looks like it's still in the cards. New parking area looks a little smaller, no?

Their PDF has diagrams of all the "alternatives" they considered. I was curious to see them.
http://pittransformed.com/wp-content/up ... -Final.pdf

I couldn't tell, when will this construction actually start? It says it will open in 2023...

One of the drawbacks listed there about the current airport.."Difficulty wayfinding" Really? I think its one of the easier airports to navigate..

Article says construction would start in 2019: http://triblive.com/local/allegheny/127 ... al-airport

I think it looks sexy. No tax dollars being used..hope we won't pay for it by higher fares to/from PIT... I bet it gets approved. Maybe it will entice Amazon, hah.

I wonder if this will include any renovations to the existing concourses. New paint/carpet etc.

CaptainMidnight wrote:

No tax dollars being used..

Estimated cost is $1.1b. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that was the cost of the original landside/airside complex. Granted that was in 1986(?) dollars.

CaptainMidnight wrote:

hope we won't pay for it by higher fares to/from PIT...

Because that has never happened to us before!

I think it's a big, unnecessary thing. the current setup is more or less fine as it is; even if there is still a lot of empty space on the main terminal. The problem certainly isn't landside either. PIT should be focusing on keeping costs as low as possible.

PITflier wrote:

CaptainMidnight wrote:

No tax dollars being used..

Estimated cost is $1.1b. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that was the cost of the original landside/airside complex. Granted that was in 1986(?) dollars.

CaptainMidnight wrote:

hope we won't pay for it by higher fares to/from PIT...

Because that has never happened to us before!

Yes it cost $1 billion back then. Probably close to $2 billion in 2017 dollars?

That $1 billion back then also included $150 million for the Southern Expressway (I-376).

I am really not happy with these concepts or the associated costs with them... Like others have mentioned, we are almost done paying the debt on the old airport, and will take on new debt to follow through on these plans?? That's a terrible idea... Like when I was young and took out a bunch of credit cards, paid off the debt after any years, and then went head first into debt again. It's insane!

Passengers care more about the "price" and "fare" than the overall surroundings. Since a lot of our traffic is O&D, people are arriving at the airport before their flight, and leaving upon exiting the plane. Our shops/restaurants are more than enough to pass some time.

What if the PFC suddenly becomes $10-15/person to pay for these updates? For a family of 5-6 people, that's $50-$90 extra for what? Some different surroundings? Pittsburgh travelers are more budget conscious than anything. The only folks I know who pay more for tickets are friends who travel for business and need certain times for flights. Otherwise, it's all about the bottom line.

If they spend all this money for a new facility, and the PFC goes up, you are chasing away those from the surrounding areas (CLE/BUF/DC/ETC), which right now is what is helping our numbers, by drawing in from other areas.

I agree some updates/improvements are needed for the airport (especially the smells sometimes), but overall, these ideas/concepts are WAY over the top and a HUGE waste of money.

PIT has found a good niche right now and has had great success. I feel that these new concepts will do nothing to further our advancement and bring new business or lower costs.

Lets be real... When an airline is looking to start service somewhere, do they care how pretty or how ugly the terminal is? No.... They care about incentives and profit. That's it. Bottom line.

Look at the sad state of Berlin airport! I was there in January flying from Berlin to JFK, and the 'terminal' if you want to call it that, was nothing but a temporary structure with 2 cafes and some really miserable chairs. However, I didn't care because my ticket was next to nothing. I could have paid more and flown through FRA, or ZRH, or VIE, but i went for lowest cost.

That's how you win in the end. Cost...

Cush wrote:

I am really not happy with these concepts or the associated costs with them... Like others have mentioned, we are almost done paying the debt on the old airport, and will take on new debt to follow through on these plans?? That's a terrible idea... Like when I was young and took out a bunch of credit cards, paid off the debt after any years, and then went head first into debt again. It's insane!

Passengers care more about the "price" and "fare" than the overall surroundings. Since a lot of our traffic is O&D, people are arriving at the airport before their flight, and leaving upon exiting the plane. Our shops/restaurants are more than enough to pass some time.

What if the PFC suddenly becomes $10-15/person to pay for these updates? For a family of 5-6 people, that's $50-$90 extra for what? Some different surroundings? Pittsburgh travelers are more budget conscious than anything. The only folks I know who pay more for tickets are friends who travel for business and need certain times for flights. Otherwise, it's all about the bottom line.

If they spend all this money for a new facility, and the PFC goes up, you are chasing away those from the surrounding areas (CLE/BUF/DC/ETC), which right now is what is helping our numbers, by drawing in from other areas.

I agree some updates/improvements are needed for the airport (especially the smells sometimes), but overall, these ideas/concepts are WAY over the top and a HUGE waste of money.

PIT has found a good niche right now and has had great success. I feel that these new concepts will do nothing to further our advancement and bring new business or lower costs.

Lets be real... When an airline is looking to start service somewhere, do they care how pretty or how ugly the terminal is? No.... They care about incentives and profit. That's it. Bottom line.

Look at the sad state of Berlin airport! I was there in January flying from Berlin to JFK, and the 'terminal' if you want to call it that, was nothing but a temporary structure with 2 cafes and some really miserable chairs. However, I didn't care because my ticket was next to nothing. I could have paid more and flown through FRA, or ZRH, or VIE, but i went for lowest cost.

That's how you win in the end. Cost...

I certainly understand where you're coming from, and agree with some of it. I do disagree with you on some major things though.

Analyzing the situation in a vacuum, I don't disagree with your rationale on how airlines make decisions. But I think it's short sighted in the sense that the airport is a key component in shaping the perception of the city and region.

Take the Amazon situation, for example. While we likely won't win that sweepstakes, the city is competing constantly on smaller scales to retain, and recruit new companies. The city has made great progress in becoming "cool" again, to an extent. The airport is the first impression of the region for many business people and visitors.

So I'd suggest that you consider it an investment ok the demand side of things. Another piece of rebuilding the image of Pittsburgh, that can hopefully add to the productive population.

A few thoughts:
a) MEM is not spending a billion dollars on renovations after losing the NW hub; and MEM is a far less nice facility than PIT.
b) CVG is not spending a billion dollars on renovations after losing the DL hub, and CVG has the same plane train setup and is about as old as PIT.
c) STL is not spending a billion dollars on renovations after losing the AA hub; and STL has nearly the same sized empty space problem and is less nice than PIT.
d) CLE is not spending a billion dollars on renovations after losing the UA hub; and CLE has empty space problem and is less nice than PIT.

See a trend here?

Airport design has a very European feel. Don't know if the current design is a detriment. Look at CLT (crap airport, yes with some new construction), PHL (even crappier). DFW......so 1970s. Hate that arc design. Yes, IND has a nice, new terminal. That would attract a company to locate/expand there? Cost is my big concern. While CLT is spending about 1-billion for their new construction, AAL doesn't seem to be flinching. Who's paying for that one? How would the refurbished PIT be financed?

Also, 28L/10R would be closed.

I actually like the look of the new terminal (although it looks an awful like IND's civic plaza), but I am really interested to see how this would be financed...

Midwestindy wrote:

I actually like the look of the new terminal (although it looks an awful like IND's civic plaza), but I am really interested to see how this would be financed...

In the presser, they said floating 20 and 30 year bonds as well as revenue from concessions and other development on the airport. It was interesting that they also said they would lower the passenger fees from $12+ per pax to $9+ per pax and promised not to raise the costs to the airlines.

ConcourseZ wrote:

Also, 28L/10R would be closed.

Why are they closing this runway? Doesn't seem to make much sense..

This may be a publicity scheme to place PIT in a better positiion for the Amazon HQ2 horse race. $1B in improvements and "no cost to passengers/airlines" - seems to support this theory.

ConcourseZ wrote:

Also, 28L/10R would be closed.

Where did you see this? That runway does need a complete reconstruction so it may make sense to mothball it instead. It would mean installing ILSs on 10C/28C however.

acentauri wrote:

This may be a publicity scheme to place PIT in a better positiion for the Amazon HQ2 horse race. $1B in improvements and "no cost to passengers/airlines" - seems to support this theory.

They've been working on the master plan for 3 years. Amazon's RFP is only a week old. Having said that I'm sure they wanted this released before the RFP closes which is next month IIRC.

The 28L/10R thing is in one of the FAQ's, next to last one if I recall. Isn't it the longest runway? seems weird that they would close it, but maybe just "temporarily" until movements pick up.

flyPIT wrote:

ConcourseZ wrote:

Also, 28L/10R would be closed.

Where did you see this? That runway does need a complete reconstruction so it may make sense to mothball it instead. It would mean installing ILSs on 10C/28C however.

acentauri wrote:

This may be a publicity scheme to place PIT in a better positiion for the Amazon HQ2 horse race. $1B in improvements and "no cost to passengers/airlines" - seems to support this theory.

They've been working on the master plan for 3 years. Amazon's RFP is only a week old. Having said that I'm sure they wanted this released before the RFP closes which is next month IIRC.

The runway comment is on the FAQ page, near the bottom, within a table about benefits to the airlines.

Agree on your last point. PIT changes and Amazon are unrelated items. Timing, however, could be everything.

Also, regarding the eliminated runway....look at one of the aerial concept images. You only see the current 28C/10C and open land next to that.

More on the closing runway....would the 112th and 911th pick that up for their ops, since it is the longest runway? Just a thought.

ConcourseZ wrote:

More on the closing runway....would the 112th and 911th pick that up for their ops, since it is the longest runway? Just a thought.

Meant to say 171st and 911th.

ConcourseZ wrote:

ConcourseZ wrote:

More on the closing runway....would the 112th and 911th pick that up for their ops, since it is the longest runway? Just a thought.

Meant to say 171st and 911th.

Possibly, but I doubt it.

It really is an unnecessary runway at this point. With 28C lengthened, no reason why it can't have the ILS and become the main runway.

With eastern flow, we currently land 10L and takeoff using 10C. With western flow, we land 28L, takeoff 28R. The only people using 28C are probably Republic planes repo'ing to another airport out of MX, the 911th and probably some business jets leaving Atlantic.



As for the master plan, I'm actually excited about this. I was really worried with the reduction of gates, but I actually like how they just took the western gates from C/D rather than actually tearing down a concourse wing(s). While the previews do look bland, I would be surprised to see the real terminal that way.

One of my biggest complaints about the current terminal is the lack of natural light. I'm not a claustrophobic person, but the lack of large windows on the exterior and the rather small skylights really make the terminal feel old and depressing.

ConcourseZ wrote:

Also, regarding the eliminated runway....look at one of the aerial concept images. You only see the current 28C/10C and open land next to that.

There are only two aerial images I've been able to find: