PIT Update Discussion Thread 2016-2017

GSP psgr · Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:08 pm

PIT-SEA took long enough.....though my guess is that without the VX merger, this would have happened a year or two ago. SFO and the QX shortages have been eating capacity left and right.

Honestly, I think Delta missed a trick here: Had they added SEA, LAX, CVG, RDU, and maybe SLC, they could have made a significant, yet modest play for business travelers without going too far out of their comfort zone. RDU's going to be somewhere they end up eventually anyways, LAX has no serious competition at the high end, and SEA's probably getting subsidized anyways.

CaptainMidnight · Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:44 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
AS interlines with American right? Good move as far as FF are concerned.

I think mostly until January 1, 2018: http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com ... ry-1-2018/

CaptainMidnight · Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:47 pm

pitbosflyer wrote:
Yep bookable already on Alaska's website.

PIT - SEA 5:20 pm
SEA - PIT 8:25 am

Also I assume these are introductory rates. Because the prices are super cheap.

That's great. Nice to see, long time coming.

CaptainMidnight · Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:43 pm

This will also be another connection option for travel to Hawaii.

tphuang · Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:46 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
AS interlines with American right? Good move as far as FF are concerned.

Interline doesn't help ff. By next year there really isn't much reward for aa flyers to fly on as unless they bought the aa code share.

AaronPGH · Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:37 pm

tphuang wrote:
Interline doesn't help ff. By next year there really isn't much reward for aa flyers to fly on as unless they bought the aa code share.

Got it. Didn't realize that the agreements were ending either.

ConcourseZ · Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:12 am

flyPIT wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
1:30pm air service press conference: https://www.facebook.com/PITairport/pos ... 8210448933

It’s a west coast destination that “will help shape the region’s future”. The still pic looks like something from the HQ2 video.
http://www.wtae.com/article/airport-off ... e/13732285

So maybe SEA is finally getting their PIT flight

You called it weeks ago, flypit, that adding this flight would be easy regarding HQ2.

Runway28L · Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:49 pm

Has there been any new info on the progress of acquiring charter flights from China? Haven't heard anything about that in quite some time other than that they were still awaiting approval.

Lemieux · Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:25 pm

Runway28L wrote:
Has there been any new info on the progress of acquiring charter flights from China? Haven't heard anything about that in quite some time other than that they were still awaiting approval.

IIRC that's exactly where they are, haven't really seen any movement on it

Cush · Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:58 pm

Don't forget aside from this hyped China flight, we are still waiting on that South American carrier (i.e. COPA). Lots of "When's" going on at the moment....

But with all of this potential, why are they still planning on right sizing the terminal? What IF someone like Alaska decided to increase flights at PIT, or Spirit, or Southwest? What if there was a new airline that wanted to start up here. Where do they go? What about diversions? PIT likes to promote themselves as the place to divert when the east coast gets hit by bad weather. What will they do when there are no gates available?

dabpit · Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:47 pm

Cush wrote:
But with all of this potential, why are they still planning on right sizing the terminal? What IF someone like Alaska decided to increase flights at PIT, or Spirit, or Southwest? What if there was a new airline that wanted to start up here. Where do they go? What about diversions? PIT likes to promote themselves as the place to divert when the east coast gets hit by bad weather. What will they do when there are no gates available?

They will be fine with losing a few gates if the whole airport goes common use and the airport starts managing the gates. Most of the airlines don't utilize their gates efficiently (i.e. AA in concourse B).

CaptainMidnight · Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:08 pm

Any chance DL competes on the SEA route? I would think so if PIT would win the Amazon bid, not sure about now though

Cush · Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:16 pm

CaptainMidnight wrote:
Any chance DL competes on the SEA route? I would think so if PIT would win the Amazon bid, not sure about now though

100% They would compete if we won the bid. No questions asked! But for now, since there is a subsidy, it is only Alaska that is willing to take the risk, or lack thereof.

flyPIT · Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:31 pm

ConcourseZ wrote:
You called it weeks ago, flypit, that adding this flight would be easy regarding HQ2.

Yep, the one item that Pittsburgh lacked regarding the HQ2 bid was the one most easily fixed. You can't build a subway line or set up a CMU or University of Pittsburgh overnight. But an airline route is a different story. Besides, PIT-SEA would have happened regardless of the H2Q bid; it is the largest unserved market from SEA.

"Pittsburgh airport paying Qatar Airways up to $1.48M for cargo service"
http://triblive.com/local/allegheny/12964320-74/pittsburgh-airport-paying-qatar-airways-up-to-148m-for-cargo-service
That's a good chunk of change. At first look I'd say its too much for what we are getting; the first incentive deal at PIT where I feel this way. But I still think the overall goal with this service is to demonstrate to QR a cargo demand at PIT, which will help the longer term goal of landing a passenger service - of which belly cargo will be key. Hopefully the goals are met and the second 6 months results in a reduced incentive.

Flaps · Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:57 pm

There are rumored to be deals pending regarding the QR flight. Kind of but not exactly a "build it and they will come" type scenario. An existing service had to be in place in order to bring these to fruition as opposed to the business bringing the flight. Not the typical way things work but not unheard of either. Time will tell.

ConcourseZ · Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:07 pm

Flaps wrote:
There are rumored to be deals pending regarding the QR flight. Kind of but not exactly a "build it and they will come" type scenario. An existing service had to be in place in order to bring these to fruition as opposed to the business bringing the flight. Not the typical way things work but not unheard of either. Time will tell.

A while back, the County was supposed to make a pitch to QR about making PIT their domestic passenger hub, once new regs were in place to allow QR flights between US airports. Sound familiar to anyone?

ctrabs0114 · Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:27 pm

ConcourseZ wrote:
Flaps wrote:
There are rumored to be deals pending regarding the QR flight. Kind of but not exactly a "build it and they will come" type scenario. An existing service had to be in place in order to bring these to fruition as opposed to the business bringing the flight. Not the typical way things work but not unheard of either. Time will tell.

A while back, the County was supposed to make a pitch to QR about making PIT their domestic passenger hub, once new regs were in place to allow QR flights between US airports. Sound familiar to anyone?

It did sound familiar at the time, but considering the direction ACAA is taking with regards to rebuilding the Airside Terminal at KPIT, I don't think a QR domestic hub would fit ACAA's current vision for the airport.

flymco753 · Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:18 pm

ConcourseZ wrote:
Flaps wrote:
There are rumored to be deals pending regarding the QR flight. Kind of but not exactly a "build it and they will come" type scenario. An existing service had to be in place in order to bring these to fruition as opposed to the business bringing the flight. Not the typical way things work but not unheard of either. Time will tell.

A while back, the County was supposed to make a pitch to QR about making PIT their domestic passenger hub, once new regs were in place to allow QR flights between US airports. Sound familiar to anyone?

With the whole debocale with the Open Skies agreement that won’t happen any time soon, if anything, making QR a hub at PIT would hurt air service from US airlines.

flyPIT · Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:15 pm

ConcourseZ wrote:
A while back, the County was supposed to make a pitch to QR about making PIT their domestic passenger hub, once new regs were in place to allow QR flights between US airports. Sound familiar to anyone?

That was a pitch to Emirates in 2014. I don't even think that trip to Dubai ever happened. Someone must have educated Mr. Fitzgerald on the fact this would be an impossible idea due to cabotage rules.

flyPIT · Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:52 pm

Forgot to add a link to my post above:
http://www.post-gazette.com/local/region/2014/01/31/Allegheny-County-wooing-Emirates-airline/stories/201401310091

flyPIT · Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:54 pm

I figured this is a good article worth sharing:
https://www.nextpittsburgh.com/latest-news/pittsburgh-debut-alaska-airlines-fly-nonstop-daily-flight-seattle/

PIT-SEA market had 15% growth this year, and that's without a nonstop. Also more flights to come if this one does well but that's not a surprise.

ctrabs0114 · Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:07 pm

flyPIT wrote:
I figured this is a good article worth sharing:
https://www.nextpittsburgh.com/latest-news/pittsburgh-debut-alaska-airlines-fly-nonstop-daily-flight-seattle/

PIT-SEA market had 15% growth this year, and that's without a nonstop. Also more flights to come if this one does well but that's not a surprise.

From AS or other carriers (i.e. DL, WN, NK)?

flyPIT · Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:02 am

ctrabs0114 wrote:
From AS or other carriers (i.e. DL, WN, NK)?

Considering AS does not serve PIT as of yet a reasonable deduction would be all carriers.

Runway28L · Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:07 am

Noticed WW has been swapping out the A321 for the A320neo a few times recently, including tonight's flight.

I wonder how their currently doing now that the winter season is well underway.

Flaps · Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:37 am

Runway28L wrote:
Noticed WW has been swapping out the A321 for the A320neo a few times recently, including tonight's flight.

I wonder how their currently doing now that the winter season is well underway.

That flight looked to be pretty full inbound. I'd estimate around 160-170 give or take a few. The G4 flight right ahead of it through customs had 149 aboard and I'd say there were 20-30 more off of WOW.

flyPIT · Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:58 pm

CaptainMidnight wrote:
Any chance DL competes on the SEA route? I would think so if PIT would win the Amazon bid, not sure about now though

It could happen even without the Amazon bid; its an easy $500,000 for DL. An incentive cannot apply to only one carrier on a route with more than one. See CLE-KEF.

AaronPGH · Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:22 pm

Ahh, so DL can get the incentive as well? I thought it was just the first airline to a route that got it.

flyPIT · Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:51 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
Ahh, so DL can get the incentive as well? I thought it was just the first airline to a route that got it.

You may be correct wrt the waived landing fees but as far as handouts go (the $500,000) I don't think they can play favorites. Everyone is entitled to it or no one. Now can DL in two years come in and start PIT-SEA the day before the AS subsidy expires and say "OK now we want our $500,000 for two years"? I don't think it works that way either. I need to do more research.

Jshank83 · Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:26 pm

I thought airports can have incentives for new airlines that come in (which AS could use in this case but DL can't) and for starting a new route from the airport no one runs. I also thought it was the first to start it, but I definitely could be wrong. It wouldn't be playing favorites if everyone is entitled to be first. DL had as much of a chance to be first as AS but chose not to start it before them. Again I could be off base though so if someone knows the answer I will defer to them.

flyPIT · Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:00 pm

Looks like this comes down to whether it is an "incentive" or "subsidy" as defined by the FAA, the length of the assistance (one year or two), and who is providing the assistance (the airport, which receives FAA grants) or non-airport entities such as tourism agencies which would be "destination marketing".

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_compliance/air_carrier_incentive/

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_compliance/media/air-carrier-incentive-2010.pdf

In terms of AS adding SEA-PIT I believe the funds are from outside the ACAA (no airport or FAA revenue involved). So upon further investigation it looks like the type of assistance AS is getting falls under "Destination Marketing" so would be outside the FAA programs outlined in the links above.

However, if DL would want to offer a PIT-SEA flight I would think the same offer is still on the table for them. With the long lead time before AS starts the flight next Sept DL could very easily beat AS to the punch by several months if they want.

flyPIT · Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:42 am

Yeah no to a combined Cleveland-Pittsburgh airport, but interesting video anyway:
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/11/21/pittsburgh-and-cleveland-shared-airport/

masseybrown · Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:54 am

flyPIT wrote:
Yeah no to a combined Cleveland-Pittsburgh airport, but interesting video anyway:
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/11/21/pittsburgh-and-cleveland-shared-airport/

The rail connection would be a good idea, though.

flyPIT · Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:29 pm

G4 changes at PIT - looks like the following all gain 1 weekly frequency next peak season, although I'm not sure about MYR. MYR might have had 5 this year:

PIT-JAX 3x weekly
PIT-MYR 5x weekly
PIT-PGD 5x weekly
PIT-SAV 3x weekly
PIT-PIE 5x weekly
PIT-SFB 4x weekly

masseybrown wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
Yeah no to a combined Cleveland-Pittsburgh airport, but interesting video anyway:
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/11/21/pittsburgh-and-cleveland-shared-airport/

The rail connection would be a good idea, though.

It would be cool to have but true high speed rail would be a near impossibility near Pittsburgh due to topography. It would need to be nearly totally underground or take a circuitous routing. Either way its cost prohibitive.

ncflyer · Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:43 pm

Super interesting video, I do find it too bad that these two cities don't cooperate on more, I think they'd both benefit. A big problem is that due to urban sprawl, people don't live downtown anymore, so it would add time for suburbanites just to get to the rail station.

The only thing in the video I disagree with is the Pittsburgh airport director. If Cleveburgh airport came about and PIT and CLE shut down, there wouldn't be less service--- there would definitely be more. Yeah OK some markets might suffer mildly due to collective overcapacity, but smaller markets like Jacksonville or Kansas City or Providence or etc. could work.

flyPIT · Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:06 pm

ncflyer wrote:
I think they'd both benefit. A big problem is that due to urban sprawl, people don't live downtown anymore, so it would add time for suburbanites just to get to the rail station.

That's the main problem I have with the idea. Not a central airport but ground access to it. Unless you live downtown you would need to get to downtown first to catch the train. That would mean 99% of the catchment area would need to get downtown. What are they gonna do, build 10,000 parking spaces at Station Square?

The CMU professor envisioned using the existing rail lines at Station Square. Those are owned by freight lines, are heavily used, and even if the freight lines agreed it would be anything but high speed.

ncflyer wrote:
The only thing in the video I disagree with is the Pittsburgh airport director. If Cleveburgh airport came about and PIT and CLE shut down, there wouldn't be less service--- there would definitely be more. Yeah OK some markets might suffer mildly due to collective overcapacity, but smaller markets like Jacksonville or Kansas City or Providence or etc. could work.

Yeah I don't know what she was on about there. Like you said some markets like SFB or MYR might see some overall capacity reduction but think about all the new markets. PDX, SAN, SNA, SJC, YVR, YUL, MCI, SLC, SAT etc etc, Europe and Caribbean service increased exponentially, Asia. It would most certainly become a legacy hub. Then that brings back all the smaller regional cities as well.

But not gonna happen. Pittsburgh and Cleveland are too far apart and are their own regions unlike Baltimore and Washington.

nmdrdh787 · Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:22 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Yeah no to a combined Cleveland-Pittsburgh airport, but interesting video anyway:
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/11/21/pittsburgh-and-cleveland-shared-airport/

I like how they asked a small consulting firm in DEN for their opinion but didn't ask the one involved with the PIT master plan (R&A).

FOund his comment funny but true. Idea is decent but it needs a bit more analysis and Im sure it isn't worth it to do it.

ctrabs0114 · Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:57 am

Cleveland and Pittsburgh can't even agree on sports teams, so why would anybody think the two cities would cooperate on this scheme? Dumbest ... idea ... ever.

ConcourseZ · Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:46 pm

Using the logic presented by the researcher, BWI, IAD, and DCA should all be shut down and build one mega airport. They are all closer together than PIT-CLE. Not going to happen. On technical merit, makes sense. When you consider all of the other variables, dumb idea.

midway7 · Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:50 am

Question for you guys in PIT - I was perusing the arrival / departure information on the website this morning and I see Southwest is no longer using the higher numbered A gates. As recently as this past summer, I used to see Southwest flights arriving and departing from gates A11 - A21, now it looks like they use 4 gates, A1, A3, A7, and A9. Based on departures this morning, it looks like they could have as many as six aircraft overnight off the gates and then towed in for flights. Where do these aircraft park and why are they no longer using the higher A gates for at least RON operations. Just curious.

DeltaL1011Flyer · Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:17 pm

midway7 wrote:
Question for you guys in PIT - I was perusing the arrival / departure information on the website this morning and I see Southwest is no longer using the higher numbered A gates. As recently as this past summer, I used to see Southwest flights arriving and departing from gates A11 - A21, now it looks like they use 4 gates, A1, A3, A7, and A9. Based on departures this morning, it looks like they could have as many as six aircraft overnight off the gates and then towed in for flights. Where do these aircraft park and why are they no longer using the higher A gates for at least RON operations. Just curious.

It looks like they still RON at 11-21 odd, but are moved to 1-9 odd for departure in the morning... I assume it's because of the unique WN boarding process...the higher numbered gates don't have the numbered dividers in the holdrooms for departures.

DeltaRules · Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:29 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Yeah no to a combined Cleveland-Pittsburgh airport, but interesting video anyway:
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/11/21/pittsburgh-and-cleveland-shared-airport/

Are they drinking from the same bottle as the Congressman who wanted to merge CMH/LCK/DAY/CVG/CLE/CAK/YNG into two airports in Ohio?

ncflyer · Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:08 pm

ConcourseZ wrote:
Using the logic presented by the researcher, BWI, IAD, and DCA should all be shut down and build one mega airport. They are all closer together than PIT-CLE. Not going to happen. On technical merit, makes sense. When you consider all of the other variables, dumb idea.

It is an unworkable idea I'm not going to disagree with that point. But in Baltimore/DC, or NYC the existing airports are all quite large and serve unique niches. And certainly in DC traffic is a nightmare compared to CLE/PIT region. The point the professor is making is that building one shared airport would bring scale to the region's air service, something neither CLE nor PIT has. No reason this region shouldn't have nonstops to places like MCI or SAN or SAT-- building a common airport would increase the odds tremendously. Won't ever happen but on that point I agree with him. DC airports already have those options amongst the three of them.

Runway28L · Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:12 pm

DeltaL1011Flyer wrote:
midway7 wrote:
Question for you guys in PIT - I was perusing the arrival / departure information on the website this morning and I see Southwest is no longer using the higher numbered A gates. As recently as this past summer, I used to see Southwest flights arriving and departing from gates A11 - A21, now it looks like they use 4 gates, A1, A3, A7, and A9. Based on departures this morning, it looks like they could have as many as six aircraft overnight off the gates and then towed in for flights. Where do these aircraft park and why are they no longer using the higher A gates for at least RON operations. Just curious.

It looks like they still RON at 11-21 odd, but are moved to 1-9 odd for departure in the morning... I assume it's because of the unique WN boarding process...the higher numbered gates don't have the numbered dividers in the holdrooms for departures.

I flew out of PIT in August and that's exactly what I saw them doing, including towing a 73G from A17 to A5 for a departure to BWI. The main thing is that A1-A9 have all of the necessary items that WN needs for their boarding process (metal group boarding markers, TV monitors, etc) whereas A11-A22 do not, thus not being able to handle departures.

Before the wall in A was removed and UA/AC moved from C, WN was routinely using A8, A10, A12, and A14 for both RON arrivals and departures. They had temporary black boarding group markers at theses gates that could be removed or outfitted on the fly. Not entirely sure why WN is no longer doing that. Could have to do with WN's ownership of gates or leasing.

flyPIT · Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:23 pm

Speaking of WN, starting in April they will operate 2 flights on Sundays to both BNA and STL.

Runway28L · Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:36 pm

flyPIT wrote:
Speaking of WN, starting in April they will operate 2 flights on Sundays to both BNA and STL.

Heard that MSY is also going year-round. Is there any truth to that?

flyPIT · Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:47 pm

Runway28L wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
Speaking of WN, starting in April they will operate 2 flights on Sundays to both BNA and STL.

Heard that MSY is also going year-round. Is there any truth to that?

When first announced it was announced as seasonal but I think it has already been running year round since it began?

jsposaune · Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:37 am

Runway28L wrote:
DeltaL1011Flyer wrote:
midway7 wrote:
Question for you guys in PIT - I was perusing the arrival / departure information on the website this morning and I see Southwest is no longer using the higher numbered A gates. As recently as this past summer, I used to see Southwest flights arriving and departing from gates A11 - A21, now it looks like they use 4 gates, A1, A3, A7, and A9. Based on departures this morning, it looks like they could have as many as six aircraft overnight off the gates and then towed in for flights. Where do these aircraft park and why are they no longer using the higher A gates for at least RON operations. Just curious.

It looks like they still RON at 11-21 odd, but are moved to 1-9 odd for departure in the morning... I assume it's because of the unique WN boarding process...the higher numbered gates don't have the numbered dividers in the holdrooms for departures.

I flew out of PIT in August and that's exactly what I saw them doing, including towing a 73G from A17 to A5 for a departure to BWI. The main thing is that A1-A9 have all of the necessary items that WN needs for their boarding process (metal group boarding markers, TV monitors, etc) whereas A11-A22 do not, thus not being able to handle departures.

Before the wall in A was removed and UA/AC moved from C, WN was routinely using A8, A10, A12, and A14 for both RON arrivals and departures. They had temporary black boarding group markers at theses gates that could be removed or outfitted on the fly. Not entirely sure why WN is no longer doing that. Could have to do with WN's ownership of gates or leasing.

They CAN run departures out of the upper gates, and they do during IROPS, etc. They tow 5 or 6 of their originating aircraft from the upper gates to their leased gates every morning, mainly for the cost savings. It's cheaper to launch departures out of their leased gates than to pay for "per use" gates.

DeltaL1011Flyer · Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:32 am

Interesting post by Cranky Flier concerning Southern Airways Express:
http://crankyflier.com/2017/11/28/south ... kes-money/

Cush · Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:10 pm

Looks like PIT is getting nonstop service to Montreal! This was a surprise to see.

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transp ... 1711290114

PITexpress · Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:32 pm

Certainly unexpected! I had been wondering for years why this service didn't exist given the proximity of the cities and the number of international departures out of Montreal.

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