steeler83
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:52 pm

I would say consider banking some of the international flights before doing something drastic like converting domestic gates to international use. If the highly coveted LHR flight and this rumored DUB flight are landed, we may see a banking of international flights.

Exciting times for PIT!!
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GSP psgr
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:48 pm

Well, PIT didn't get anything out of the big F9 route announcement and lost LAS, so that's the opposite of good. Ironically, before WN came in and muscled F9 out of it's pure DEN hub/spoke operation, I thought a PIT/DEN hub combo could have been a big winner for them.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:14 pm

steeler83 wrote:
I would say consider banking some of the international flights before doing something drastic like converting domestic gates to international use. If the highly coveted LHR flight and this rumored DUB flight are landed, we may see a banking of international flights.

Exciting times for PIT!!

The flights are already banked. Banked for connections in KEF, CDG, and FRA. Furthermore it would not be good to make an all out effort to attract another carrier only to say "by the way we need you to arrive and depart within this time period." That should be up to the convenience of the airline. This isn't LHR; if everyone wants to arrive at 5pm - including the charters - PIT should make every effort to accommodate that. But that's a couple additions away before it becomes a problem.


GSP psgr wrote:
Well, PIT didn't get anything out of the big F9 route announcement and lost LAS, so that's the opposite of good. Ironically, before WN came in and muscled F9 out of it's pure DEN hub/spoke operation, I thought a PIT/DEN hub combo could have been a big winner for them.

I'm interested to see if LAS comes back next Spring. I guess NK starting 9 routes from PIT including LAS did not help F9 here. But that's fine, I'd rather see NK and G4 have a strong operation here because their scheduling is not nearly as volatile as F9's. I'm mildly disappointed they did not add anything today, but at the same time not overly excited for the cities that did see numerous additions. I'd rather see a couple solid daily route additions by WN or AS instead of eight 3x weekly flights by F9, 80% of which will be gone in 14 months based on their track record.
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CaptainMidnight
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:29 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
Well, PIT didn't get anything out of the big F9 route announcement and lost LAS, so that's the opposite of good. Ironically, before WN came in and muscled F9 out of it's pure DEN hub/spoke operation, I thought a PIT/DEN hub combo could have been a big winner for them.


Wonder how this will affect WN and NK's fares (if any)?

Looks like F9's PIT-LAS route had a popularity rate of about 6.5% over the past year: http://flightaware.com/insight/airline/KPIT/KLAS/FFT

$46,000 revenue per flight seems low?
 
HTCone
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:34 pm

DUB has full US CBP preclearance. Flights arriving from DUB to the US arrive as domestic flights and do not require International gates/terminals.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:40 pm

HTCone wrote:
DUB has full US CBP preclearance. Flights arriving from DUB to the US arrive as domestic flights and do not require International gates/terminals.

Yep, major brain fart on my end. Thanks for the correction.
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HTCone
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:17 pm

flyPIT wrote:
HTCone wrote:
DUB has full US CBP preclearance. Flights arriving from DUB to the US arrive as domestic flights and do not require International gates/terminals.

Yep, major brain fart on my end. Thanks for the correction.


I'd hardly call it major! It just means it's easier for smaller airports to fit in a DUB service, as BDL shows
 
Skym88
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:51 am

Is there a news source regarding the possible PIT - DUB Flight?
 
AaronPGH
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:56 pm

Lots of chatter in other threads about Norwegian announcing new US routes in a few weeks
 
bravoindia
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:34 am

A lot of talk around LNAA trying to get service ABE to PIT. Hopefully surveys help and something comes to fruition.
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:57 am

It would seem crazy that PIT gets a 4th European flight while some of our competing peer cities still have none. I was curious about how O&D demand compares among the cities so I referenced the trusty Brookings Institute data. The data is getting old (2011) but it should still give a good comparison when making a city vs. city comparison.

I was pleasantly surprised to see demand from PIT top all the cities I compared to, in some cases more than double the demand. I combined CLE and CAK.Since Ireland is so small I also included data for SNN which could fall into the catchment area for a nonstop flight to DUB.

City - DUB - SNN - Combined

PIT - 7500 - 2400 - 9900
STL - 7000 - 1700 - 8700
RDU - 5800 - 1700 - 6500
CLE/CAK - 5300/400 - 2500/0 - 7800/400 (8200 total)
AUS - 5500 - 2900 - 8400
BNA - 4900 - 1100 - 6000
IND - 4500 - 200 - 6500
CMH - 3900 - 1200 - 5100
CVG - 3600 - 2000 - 5600
MSY - 3500 - 700 - 4200, much like
*BDL 800 - 200 -1000

Having said that, the raw numbers are still low but I can see demand to DUB being stimulated very much with a new nonstop much like PIT-KEF has been. O&D is more desirable than connections and considering the above I could see Norwegian offering PIT-DUB/LGW a few times a week each.

https://www.brookings.edu/interactives/global-gateways-international-aviation-in-metropolitan-america/

* Incidentally the one city that did not have DUB service at the time but now does is the one with the least demand (BDL)
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:12 am

Some typos in my last post, here it is corrected:



I was pleasantly surprised to see demand from PIT to DUB top all the cities I compared to, in some cases more than double the demand. I combined CLE and CAK. Since Ireland is so small I also included data for SNN which could fall into the catchment area for a nonstop flight to DUB.

City - DUB - SNN - Combined

PIT - 7500 - 2400 - 9900
STL - 7000 - 1700 - 8700
RDU - 5800 - 1700 - 7500
CLE/CAK - 5300/400 - 2500/0 - 7800/400 (8200 total)
AUS - 5500 - 2900 - 8400
BNA - 4900 - 1100 - 6000
IND - 4500 - 2000 - 6500
CMH - 3900 - 1200 - 5100
CVG - 3600 - 2000 - 5600
MSY - 3500 - 700 - 4200
*BDL 800 - 200 -1000
FLYi
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:25 am

flyPIT wrote:
Some typos in my last post, here it is corrected:



I was pleasantly surprised to see demand from PIT to DUB top all the cities I compared to, in some cases more than double the demand. I combined CLE and CAK. Since Ireland is so small I also included data for SNN which could fall into the catchment area for a nonstop flight to DUB.

City - DUB - SNN - Combined

PIT - 7500 - 2400 - 9900
STL - 7000 - 1700 - 8700
RDU - 5800 - 1700 - 7500
CLE/CAK - 5300/400 - 2500/0 - 7800/400 (8200 total)
AUS - 5500 - 2900 - 8400
BNA - 4900 - 1100 - 6000
IND - 4500 - 2000 - 6500
CMH - 3900 - 1200 - 5100
CVG - 3600 - 2000 - 5600
MSY - 3500 - 700 - 4200
*BDL 800 - 200 -1000


Yeah I actually agree with you, I have thought a DUB-PIT flight might be able to work, but these numbers confirm that...
 
PitTraveler
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:49 pm

Interesting info, thanks for posting. Do you think all these flights to Europe have potential to generate some kind of meaningful connecting traffic? Or not really because they are all stand alone?

flyPIT wrote:
Some typos in my last post, here it is corrected:



I was pleasantly surprised to see demand from PIT to DUB top all the cities I compared to, in some cases more than double the demand. I combined CLE and CAK. Since Ireland is so small I also included data for SNN which could fall into the catchment area for a nonstop flight to DUB.

City - DUB - SNN - Combined

PIT - 7500 - 2400 - 9900
STL - 7000 - 1700 - 8700
RDU - 5800 - 1700 - 7500
CLE/CAK - 5300/400 - 2500/0 - 7800/400 (8200 total)
AUS - 5500 - 2900 - 8400
BNA - 4900 - 1100 - 6000
IND - 4500 - 2000 - 6500
CMH - 3900 - 1200 - 5100
CVG - 3600 - 2000 - 5600
MSY - 3500 - 700 - 4200
*BDL 800 - 200 -1000
 
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:39 pm

PitTraveler wrote:
Interesting info, thanks for posting. Do you think all these flights to Europe have potential to generate some kind of meaningful connecting traffic? Or not really because they are all stand alone?

flyPIT wrote:
Some typos in my last post, here it is corrected:



I was pleasantly surprised to see demand from PIT to DUB top all the cities I compared to, in some cases more than double the demand. I combined CLE and CAK. Since Ireland is so small I also included data for SNN which could fall into the catchment area for a nonstop flight to DUB.

City - DUB - SNN - Combined

PIT - 7500 - 2400 - 9900
STL - 7000 - 1700 - 8700
RDU - 5800 - 1700 - 7500
CLE/CAK - 5300/400 - 2500/0 - 7800/400 (8200 total)
AUS - 5500 - 2900 - 8400
BNA - 4900 - 1100 - 6000
IND - 4500 - 2000 - 6500
CMH - 3900 - 1200 - 5100
CVG - 3600 - 2000 - 5600
MSY - 3500 - 700 - 4200
*BDL 800 - 200 -1000


They could all be viable with the right mixture of frequency, airfare, and timing. It would be interesting to see if there are a lot of WN flights arriving when the European flights arrive. There's the connection traffic.
 
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:21 pm

Pittsburgh - China flights start pushed back to next summer. PIT traffic still climbing.
http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transp ... 1707210147
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:23 pm

PitTraveler wrote:
Interesting info, thanks for posting. Do you think all these flights to Europe have potential to generate some kind of meaningful connecting traffic? Or not really because they are all stand alone?

Meaningful connecting traffic? Not really although there probably is some but it would mean having two itineraries other than the few that connect on DL from the CDG flight. The greatest potential for these flights to draw additional passengers is to continue to attract people who drive to PIT from hours away.


ConcourseZ wrote:
Pittsburgh - China flights start pushed back to next summer. PIT traffic still climbing.
http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transp ... 1707210147

I'm glad they gave an update on this and the reasoning makes sense. With a 6 month lead in time for sales to begin it shouldn't be that long before we know which cities/frequencies/airline/etc.
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slvfly
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:28 pm

Very curious what you guys think about the quote from Christina Cassotis on the Porter flight.

Ms. Cassotis was not pleased with the decision and blamed it on the airline’s marketing efforts.

“I really believe that they did not go about selling this market properly and, unfortunately, they weren’t really receptive to our suggestions,” she said. “We were really disappointed because we think it’s a good market and people were flying it, especially inbound for a lot of sporting events.”

The authority hopes to recruit another airline to provide competition to Air Canada, which offers four flights a day to Toronto.


I know Porter had a bunch of radio ads, and I think they had a billboard on Banksville IIRC.

Also, "recruit another airline" = WestJet Encore IMO.
 
Flaps
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:28 pm

I don't think it was a lack of promotion but maybe ineffective promotion. She might have a point in that regard. They never established any kind of US point of sale. Their traffic is very heavily skewed to the Canadian side. Bishop just isn't that big of a selling point on the PIT end. IMHO Encore wold be a better fit for the market as it would provide a much stronger network for connections than PD could.
 
AaronPGH
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:02 pm

I never once saw an ad or any type of marketing explaining the route or the time saving benefits of landing right in the center of Toronto. It was a super simple message to convey to folks, and they didn't do it.

I could literally pay $140ish bucks and walk straight to the beach to meet my Toronto friends if I wanted.
 
Flaps
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:31 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
I never once saw an ad or any type of marketing explaining the route or the time saving benefits of landing right in the center of Toronto. It was a super simple message to convey to folks, and they didn't do it.

I could literally pay $140ish bucks and walk straight to the beach to meet my Toronto friends if I wanted.


They did market Bishop extensively. It wasn't effective because from the PIT side those benefits weren't very important. They mattered to about 1-3 US passengers per day. The rest of the plane would be Canadian. Toronto itself isn't that big of a draw from here. A lot of people visiting there from PIT drive it in combination with other destinations.

Bishop itself and its limited connecting options is the problem in this market. Its benefits are very valuable to a very small segment of the market (you for example). For the PIT market as a whole it added little to no value. Most of the O&D traffic drives. The portion that flies is heavily tilted toward connections and Bishop is limited in that regard. PD's clientele is almost exclusively upscale Canadian travelers. Hence the full loads for every Penguin and Steeler home game. Otherwise, they carried limited connecting traffic (mostly to Montreal) and very little US originating traffic.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:07 am

I'm not sure i agree with Ms.Cassotis on this one. Porter did plenty of advertising at the start of service both on radio and Facebook. Much more than Condor and WOW ever did. Home games are not gonna cut it when it comes to scheduled service.

Image
Image

If anything the ACAA did not promote Downtown Toronto on this end.

Like I said a couple weeks ago WestJet Encore is the next option and incentives would be huge, but in this case they would also need to be made available to Air Canada since it is the same route. Probably not gonna happen.
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Cush
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:29 pm

I don't understand why some people are surprised by this, or why some people say that ACAA didn't promote the route enough. PIT doesn't have a lot of O&D traffic to/from Toronto to justify the two services. Why do you think we have had only a CRJ or Dash 8 on the PIT-YYZ route with AC? When I've flown through YYZ to/from PIT, the flight is full of mostly connecting passengers heading onward to Europe/Asia.

Porter provides a great niche service, as my buddy loved flying them when visiting his wife's family up in Toronto. However, Porter is more O&D, and since there are very few people starting/ending their journey in Toronto, AC and YYZ make more sense.

I agree that the only viable player to fill the void would be Westjet with their connections.

Nothing really lost with Porter though. It was a boutique style airline that won't really impact PIT in any way.
Fly me to the moon let me play among the stars.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:23 am

"As Norwegian Air invades the U.S., Pittsburgh sees its chance for flights to London "
http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2017/07/28/norwegian-airlines-norwegian-air-shuttle-pittsburgh-flights-london-pit-airport-wow-airlines-condor-airlines/stories/201707280078



Some very positive remarks:

"Norwegian Air Shuttle definitely is looking at Pittsburgh as “a potential viable destination to launch flights from Europe” over the next couple of years, said Anders Lindstrom, director of communications.

“Absolutely, Pittsburgh is on the radar for the next few years. It comes back to the aircraft type and capability,” he said Thursday.

The discount carrier emerged as a potential candidate for a London-Pittsburgh route in an interview that its CEO Bjorn Kjos gave to CNN last month." ....... "Norwegian Air Shuttle expects delivery of those jets in 2019. That, he added, “will create opportunities for Pittsburgh."



But regarding BA re-entering PIT, not so much:

"The airport authority has been actively courting British Airways to launch a nonstop flight to London from Pittsburgh. But so far the airline hasn’t taken the bait.

Blair Pomeroy, a longtime aviation strategy consultant who has worked with British Airways in the past, said he expects the airline to announce another U.S. destination soon, but that it won’t be Pittsburgh.

Mr. Pomeroy said he has been told by British Airways officials that the authority has been losing out because it has not been willing to offer the same multi-year risk-sharing packages that some other cities are in an effort to score the service.

Maryland, for instance, is offering British Airways nearly $6 million a year to maintain its nonstop service to London from Baltimore. Last year, New Orleans got the prestigious flight after its tourism bureau offered the airline $1.4 million a year for three years to help the flight.

Ms. Cassotis has said that money is not the reason Pittsburgh isn’t getting the flight. Mr. Kerlik said Thursday that while the authority won’t divulge its offer, Mr. Pomeroy’s statement regarding the lack of a similar risk-sharing package isn’t accurate.
"
FLYi
 
slvfly
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:10 pm

I'm on the fence about the whole BA thing. On one hand, $6 million seems like a ridiculous amount of money for a subsidy. On the other hand, BWI is paying the same amount per flight (~$16,000) that we are for Condor.
 
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:18 pm

Must be another reason BA is not coming in. They are part of OneWorld as is American. Don't want to jeopardize connection traffic at the hubs with non-stop service? American doesn't want them here? Yet BA will fly LHR - MSY non-stop? I don't see the potential there. It's metro rank is 45. Traveled there many times on business. It's a market you want to leave.
 
CaptainMidnight
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:53 pm

Norwegian's fleet is 787-9s (can PIT accommodate wide bodies?), 737-800s, and 737 Max 8s. They fly to LGW, so PIT-LGW is a little over 3,700 miles. I think that is near the upper limit of the range of the Max 8s, maybe it can be done.

They started taking delivery of the Max 8s this summer and they ordered 100, so maybe that will help their decision to fly to PIT.
 
Lemieux
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:16 pm

Looks like a UA 772 from IAH to EWR just diverted, buddy who works at Trego-Dugan just took a few snaps of it.

EDIT: It's UA 2793
Last edited by Lemieux on Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kpitrrat
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:17 pm

Yes, PIT can accommodate widebodies (albeit in a limited fashion). It currently sees Condors 763 from FRA and has seen BA 747/767's in the past. In addition there have been numerous 777 and A333/2 diversions, all of which have all been parked at the terminal. Gate C61 was made with dual jetways to accommodate 747's. Should there be another widebody A/C with regularly scheduled flights I think the concern would be with ground operations and possibly Customs. The facility itself gates/runways will not be an issue.

Edit: Forgot to mention the A388 diversion his last winter during a large east coast storm. However, that A/C was parked over at Atlantic along with its 773 companion.
 
Lemieux
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:19 pm

kpitrrat wrote:
In addition there have been numerous 777 and A333/2 diversions

IIRC we had an Emirates 380 divert here in the winter too
Full time internet idiot. A319/20/21/332/333, Boeing 733/734/738/752/753/762/763/77W, CR2/7/9, de Havilland DHC-8, Embraer 140/145/175/190, MD82/88.
 
Cush
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:02 pm

Does anyone have photos of that? Would be awesome to see an A380 here in PIT! Even if it was just a diversion!
Fly me to the moon let me play among the stars.
 
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:12 pm

Ever since WOW Air started PIT and ORK there has been a surprising number of travel essays about Pittsburgh in the Irish media. The latest from today:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/travel/lots-to-do-in-downtown-usa-city-of-pittsburgh-455898.html

Unfortunately WOW is dumping Cork; hopefully it won't dampen demand for the KEF-PIT flight as there seems to be a decent local market to Ireland. OTOH that development might help the cause for a DUB nonstop.



Looks like Condor's on time departure performance from PIT has not improved. Another on time arrival at PIT last night followed by a pushback over 2 hours late. Whatever is going on there its ridiculous.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CFG99/history/20170728/2330Z/KPIT/EDDF
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AaronPGH
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:32 am

There was a giant press tour that happened with 15+ euro journalists touring Pittsburgh at the launch of the flights. All reports are that they had the time of their lives and left thinking it was the best city tour ever. (here's an MTV UK result: http://www.mtv.co.uk/travel/news/8-reas ... thought-of ). If you want a model of exactly how to launch a flight, it seems like ACAA, VisitPittsburgh and WOW all pulled a slam dunk working in tandem. Both entities understand how to create new demand from each end, which is not how all airlines think when launching routes. This is required in a city like Pittsburgh if you're attempting something like this, and why we have a leg up versus other disorganized rust belt cities.

I don't know as much about Condor, but I hope they did the same. My personal gut has said that if any of these flights fail it will be them. WOW and DL serve two totally different markets. Condor is this weird middle ground, and they don't seem to be as aggressive as WOW in marketing new cities, at least publicly. Hopefully Condor is more behind the scenes business oriented in their marketing (getting contracts from big companies) and isn't having a problem. Does anyone know their load factors? WOW seems to be doing really well – I have friends on there every week and they all report pretty full planes.

As far as Porter goes, sure they may have advertised, but *what* exactly were they advertising? AC's bread and butter is connections. Porter, being a new entry that sort of fills a smaller JetBlue zone in Canada, had two compelling arguments to make when they came to town. 1) They drop you off right downtown (I didn't even know they had a city airport previously!), and 2) you can now get to all of eastern Canada for cheap (it used to be $500+ to go anywhere). In Pittsburgh, their opportunity was in convincing people who used to drive to Toronto or Montreal to fly instead, because now it's less than half the price. In Toronto, their opportunity was to convince people who don't have cars and can't drive to Pittsburgh to fly them non-stop from town without trying to round up friends with cars. I have seen these exact scenarios in my work, time and time again. Anecdotes yes, but when you're talking about small prop planes, it adds up.

I see they ran ads, but did any of those ads focus in on those exact markets? The only message I'm getting from the ones posted above is "yeah, we go there now", which is not compelling to anyone. If you're a business traveler, you don't care because your flights have always been paid for by work. If you're someone who normally drives, that ad doesn't resonate either because it says nothing about the convenience or price, and your experience every time you've looked for flights has been absurd, $500+, don't waste your time. Why would you be looking at flying in the first place if this is you?

Porter's goal with marketing, if they were going to hit this right, was to ignore the business traveler and focus on the folks going to Toronto, Montreal, and leisure destinations in eastern Canada. These are the people who were previously either driving, or skipping a trip they wanted to do because of flights costs. I know for a fact that a ton of art scene people slowly began paying attention to how cheap it was to connect to Montreal (finally!), but they never got the chance to align a trip before they were canceled. This "aha!" moment happened at the end of Porter's run, not the beginning like it should have. There was an opportunity to launch out of the gate with this messaging on both ends, but it didn't happen. I'm assuming that has a lot to do with why Christina said what she said about their marketing.

*grain of salt* - I'm a marketing and leisure travel / arts / hospitality guy. I also feel like I am part of the newer wave of Pittsburgh, but I am a peripheral airline guy. Marketing not operations. I'm saying all of this as someone in my early 30s who flies 4 times a month for business and arts reasons to these cities, and these are things I notice personally and in my industry. I can't get away from WOW wherever I go, it invades my life. Porter was a fart in the wind. Why?
 
Lemieux
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:58 pm

As stated above, looking back on it, Porter served a niche market that shouldn't have lasted as long as it did, that shouldn't deter any new INTL routes (cough cough Dublin) from coming into PIT.
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:26 am

AaronPGH wrote:
There was a giant press tour that happened with 15+ euro journalists touring Pittsburgh at the launch of the flights. All reports are that they had the time of their lives and left thinking it was the best city tour ever. (here's an MTV UK result: http://www.mtv.co.uk/travel/news/8-reas ... thought-of ). If you want a model of exactly how to launch a flight, it seems like ACAA, VisitPittsburgh and WOW all pulled a slam dunk working in tandem. Both entities understand how to create new demand from each end, which is not how all airlines think when launching routes. This is required in a city like Pittsburgh if you're attempting something like this, and why we have a leg up versus other disorganized rust belt cities.

I don't know as much about Condor, but I hope they did the same. My personal gut has said that if any of these flights fail it will be them. WOW and DL serve two totally different markets. Condor is this weird middle ground, and they don't seem to be as aggressive as WOW in marketing new cities, at least publicly. Hopefully Condor is more behind the scenes business oriented in their marketing (getting contracts from big companies) and isn't having a problem. Does anyone know their load factors? WOW seems to be doing really well – I have friends on there every week and they all report pretty full planes.

As far as Porter goes, sure they may have advertised, but *what* exactly were they advertising? AC's bread and butter is connections. Porter, being a new entry that sort of fills a smaller JetBlue zone in Canada, had two compelling arguments to make when they came to town. 1) They drop you off right downtown (I didn't even know they had a city airport previously!), and 2) you can now get to all of eastern Canada for cheap (it used to be $500+ to go anywhere). In Pittsburgh, their opportunity was in convincing people who used to drive to Toronto or Montreal to fly instead, because now it's less than half the price. In Toronto, their opportunity was to convince people who don't have cars and can't drive to Pittsburgh to fly them non-stop from town without trying to round up friends with cars. I have seen these exact scenarios in my work, time and time again. Anecdotes yes, but when you're talking about small prop planes, it adds up.

I see they ran ads, but did any of those ads focus in on those exact markets? The only message I'm getting from the ones posted above is "yeah, we go there now", which is not compelling to anyone. If you're a business traveler, you don't care because your flights have always been paid for by work. If you're someone who normally drives, that ad doesn't resonate either because it says nothing about the convenience or price, and your experience every time you've looked for flights has been absurd, $500+, don't waste your time. Why would you be looking at flying in the first place if this is you?

Porter's goal with marketing, if they were going to hit this right, was to ignore the business traveler and focus on the folks going to Toronto, Montreal, and leisure destinations in eastern Canada. These are the people who were previously either driving, or skipping a trip they wanted to do because of flights costs. I know for a fact that a ton of art scene people slowly began paying attention to how cheap it was to connect to Montreal (finally!), but they never got the chance to align a trip before they were canceled. This "aha!" moment happened at the end of Porter's run, not the beginning like it should have. There was an opportunity to launch out of the gate with this messaging on both ends, but it didn't happen. I'm assuming that has a lot to do with why Christina said what she said about their marketing.

*grain of salt* - I'm a marketing and leisure travel / arts / hospitality guy. I also feel like I am part of the newer wave of Pittsburgh, but I am a peripheral airline guy. Marketing not operations. I'm saying all of this as someone in my early 30s who flies 4 times a month for business and arts reasons to these cities, and these are things I notice personally and in my industry. I can't get away from WOW wherever I go, it invades my life. Porter was a fart in the wind. Why?



This is an excellent summary.

I think with Porter however it might not be fair to compare them to WOW Air or Condor wrt marketing and promotion. These are intercontinental airlines that fly wide bodies; I would not think a regional airline can afford to expend the same amount of resources on that stuff as the bigger carriers. Regardless I still think a 70 seater was a bit to much airplane for the route.

I agree about the ACAA, VisitPittsburgh, the Pittsburgh Regional Alliance, the universities, and local corporations all being on the same page regarding air service development. I have never seen this level of cooperation here or elsewhere and it is huge.
FLYi
 
slvfly
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:51 pm

DL 97 has now been cancelled two days in a row. Anyone know why? Equipment issue?
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:45 pm

slvfly wrote:
DL 97 has now been cancelled two days in a row. Anyone know why? Equipment issue?

Its using a different flight number today for some reason.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL9925/history/20170803/1000Z/LFPG/KPIT

Quite a day yesterday for diversions, at least 3 AA A321s and 2 DL 763s from LAX alone plus many more including rare appearances by Virgin America and WestJet.

On that topic, what an embarrassment for PIT the other day when UA to diverted a 787 from CDG-IAD to PIT... only to divert it again to CLE before landing here (discussed in the CLE thread). Most likely because of a lack of customs personnel due to our own scheduled int'l requirements. That, after all the smoke PIT officials made a few years ago to airlines that they should send their int'l diversions to PIT. This most likely cost United thousands of dollars in wasted fuel and if I were them I would be hesitant to list PIT as an alternate in the future for int'l arrivals.
FLYi
 
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:06 am

Just returned from Iceland. Outbound to KEF had about 20 seats available; return today had about 5 available. Today's equipment was TF-SON, ex-UTair. Still has cabin placards of English/Cyrillic. Some WOW observations. Cabin crew all from Iceland. All female. They wear either a skirt or a dress with a 3/4 jacket, scarf, and a flight cap. All have their hair in a bun. Before and after flight they are in heels (same type for all). During cabin service, the jackets and caps come off and on go the sandals (same type for all). This is a bit of a throw back to an earlier era in aviation and a bit sexist as well. Flight crews seem to come from the UK, and Germany. I believe the inaugural flight had a female captain or 1st. Four attendants on each flight. Service is good. KEF is a zoo. I don't think they were prepared for the amount of people coming through. Some gates seem to have been created in the hallways, with seating along the wall. WOW needs better instructions on what to do and where to take your luggage. Immigration was smooth. At PIT, we taxied for about 5 minutes. After deplaning, the customs area was crowded but moved swiftly. Our luggage arrived 30 minutes after we deplaned. When we arrived at baggage claim, the Paris luggage was being returned. We had luggage at Claim #1. The belt needs some attention. Very loud screeching sounds in places. Exiting went smoothly. This is where leaving Intl makes no sense. We went on this convoluted path to the train, where the majority of the doors were blocked off, even though TSA is at the other end. Can anyone explain why leaving this area still seems to be an issue for, I imagine, TSA? WO does a good job marketing their service, with cabin graphics that set it apart from the others. The fuchsia paint and cabin uniform color scheme is also good. Even the registration numbers is unique, taking a bland, invisible function and being creative with it. Also, when going through immigration at PIT, there were a lot of passengers in the EU/other countries line. That's very good news!
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:24 am

ConcourseZ wrote:
Just returned from Iceland. Outbound to KEF had about 20 seats available; return today had about 5 available. Today's equipment was TF-SON, ex-UTair. Still has cabin placards of English/Cyrillic. Some WOW observations. Cabin crew all from Iceland. All female. They wear either a skirt or a dress with a 3/4 jacket, scarf, and a flight cap. All have their hair in a bun. Before and after flight they are in heels (same type for all). During cabin service, the jackets and caps come off and on go the sandals (same type for all). This is a bit of a throw back to an earlier era in aviation and a bit sexist as well. Flight crews seem to come from the UK, and Germany. I believe the inaugural flight had a female captain or 1st. Four attendants on each flight. Service is good. KEF is a zoo. I don't think they were prepared for the amount of people coming through. Some gates seem to have been created in the hallways, with seating along the wall. WOW needs better instructions on what to do and where to take your luggage. Immigration was smooth. At PIT, we taxied for about 5 minutes. After deplaning, the customs area was crowded but moved swiftly. Our luggage arrived 30 minutes after we deplaned. When we arrived at baggage claim, the Paris luggage was being returned. We had luggage at Claim #1. The belt needs some attention. Very loud screeching sounds in places. Exiting went smoothly. This is where leaving Intl makes no sense. We went on this convoluted path to the train, where the majority of the doors were blocked off, even though TSA is at the other end. Can anyone explain why leaving this area still seems to be an issue for, I imagine, TSA? WO does a good job marketing their service, with cabin graphics that set it apart from the others. The fuchsia paint and cabin uniform color scheme is also good. Even the registration numbers is unique, taking a bland, invisible function and being creative with it. Also, when going through immigration at PIT, there were a lot of passengers in the EU/other countries line. That's very good news!


Thanks for the detailed trip report although I'm not sure what is sexist about an all female cabin crew (happens plenty of times in the US as do all male crews). I imagine the "convoluted" path to the train is the temporary solution to get to baggage claim without the need for TSA re-screening that would be required to enter the airside.

Great to hear about the full flights, I was starting to think demand for the service is dropping off based on fare comparisons with the BWI flight.
FLYi
 
slvfly
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:41 am

I agree that the final part of the customs process is a bit funky. But without it, everyone would have to go through that small security checkpoint (which would be a disaster).
 
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:06 am

flyPIT wrote:
ConcourseZ wrote:
Just returned from Iceland. Outbound to KEF had about 20 seats available; return today had about 5 available. Today's equipment was TF-SON, ex-UTair. Still has cabin placards of English/Cyrillic. Some WOW observations. Cabin crew all from Iceland. All female. They wear either a skirt or a dress with a 3/4 jacket, scarf, and a flight cap. All have their hair in a bun. Before and after flight they are in heels (same type for all). During cabin service, the jackets and caps come off and on go the sandals (same type for all). This is a bit of a throw back to an earlier era in aviation and a bit sexist as well. Flight crews seem to come from the UK, and Germany. I believe the inaugural flight had a female captain or 1st. Four attendants on each flight. Service is good. KEF is a zoo. I don't think they were prepared for the amount of people coming through. Some gates seem to have been created in the hallways, with seating along the wall. WOW needs better instructions on what to do and where to take your luggage. Immigration was smooth. At PIT, we taxied for about 5 minutes. After deplaning, the customs area was crowded but moved swiftly. Our luggage arrived 30 minutes after we deplaned. When we arrived at baggage claim, the Paris luggage was being returned. We had luggage at Claim #1. The belt needs some attention. Very loud screeching sounds in places. Exiting went smoothly. This is where leaving Intl makes no sense. We went on this convoluted path to the train, where the majority of the doors were blocked off, even though TSA is at the other end. Can anyone explain why leaving this area still seems to be an issue for, I imagine, TSA? WO does a good job marketing their service, with cabin graphics that set it apart from the others. The fuchsia paint and cabin uniform color scheme is also good. Even the registration numbers is unique, taking a bland, invisible function and being creative with it. Also, when going through immigration at PIT, there were a lot of passengers in the EU/other countries line. That's very good news!


Thanks for the detailed trip report although I'm not sure what is sexist about an all female cabin crew (happens plenty of times in the US as do all male crews). I imagine the "convoluted" path to the train is the temporary solution to get to baggage claim without the need for TSA re-screening that would be required to enter the airside.

Great to hear about the full flights, I was starting to think demand for the service is dropping off based on fare comparisons with the BWI flight.


The sexist part being skirts and dresses, no pants, and a general look that they are "stewardesses" back when mostly men flew. Just an observation.
 
Cush
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:37 pm

I have a random question for everyone, as this is something I have never seen before.... About 1.5 months ago, my wife and I priced flights on WOW from PIT-KEF and back. The price was amazing! $350/rt for two people. We didn't pull the trigger, and a week later, I checked the same dates, and the price jumped up 2-3x, so we declined to book the trip (we were solely doing it because of the amazing price). Yesterday, I checked the same dates, and the prices had dropped back to the level they were at almost 2 months ago. How is that possible? I would assume the lower fare/class tickets had all been sold, so all that remains are the higher priced fares/classes. Is it common when a flight gets close to the departure, that the price can drop again to entice passengers to book?

Also, I haven't been in the International Arrivals Hall at PIT in many years, but I worked there as an Ambassador when I was in college 10+ years ago. Even back then it was in dire need of updating and repair. I can't believe the squeaky baggage belts haven't been fixed/updated. Wow!

It's a shame that the government has money to spend on needless employees in other places, yet for something important like Immigration/Customs, we lack the staffing necessary. I remember back in the day (when we had LGW/CDG/FRA on US), there were MANY ICE employees to keep up with the demand. Yes, there were long lines back then, but all in all, it went pretty smoothly.

I saw the Condor flight land the other night when we were out in Robinson. It felt great seeing such a nice widebody plane landing at PIT. I hope this service remains. I get really nervous about it as I feel that in 1-2 years the service will be dropped... Even worse, I fear what will happen when Mrs. C's contract ends with the airport in some time... Then it will be back to the "good ole boys" with county friends, and back to the same garbage we dealt with for years.
Fly me to the moon let me play among the stars.
 
HTCone
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:07 pm

Apparently EI are putting the A330 on DUB-IAD from next March, meaning there's a 757 spare for them from then. Dublin airport CEO hinted a few weeks ago that a DUB-PIT route announcement was on the horizon, didn't mention a carrier though.
 
AaronPGH
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:46 pm

Any chance the reason BA was never going to come to PIT was because they were going to deploy EI to Europe? Do those airlines coordinate on that level?
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:17 pm

I think they absolutely coordinate but it is not accurate to say "BA was never going to come to PIT". They have been in negotiations for years now; seems like it is a "he said she said" issue (reply #474) regarding what place incentives played in BA's avoiding PIT so far.

As far as Aer Lingus and a DUB flight it is pure speculation at this point.
FLYi
 
AaronPGH
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:39 pm

Sorry, yeah I should have worded that differently. Not "never".
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:28 am

What a zoo it must have been at customs today with 5 flights arriving within 57 minutes of each other.

SWQ914 B734 Punta Cana Int'l (PUJ / MDPC) Fri 07:33PM EDT
SWQ933 B733 Sangster Int'l (MBJ / MKJS) Fri 07:21PM EDT
CFG98 B763 Frankfurt Int'l (FRA / EDDF) Fri 07:04PM EDT
DAL97 B752 Charles de Gaulle/Roissy (CDG / LFPG) Fri 06:39PM EDT
WOW147 A321 Keflavik Int'l (KEF / BIKF) Fri 06:36PM EDT

On top of that it seems like the local weather has been crap every Friday. The Condor flight was all the way down over NoVa probably diverting to IAD or BWI at one point.
FLYi
 
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ConcourseZ
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:54 am

Just a thought about D8. If they do come to PIT with transatlantic service, how stable would this be. They have ordered a lot of aircraft which will give them a lot of debt. Should there be an economic downturn, it could be ugly for them. Thoughts?
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread Part 34

Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:58 pm

LBE's runway will be closed for about a week in Sept. It wasn't clear to me if Spirit's LBE flights will transfer to PIT or if PIT's existing schedule will absorb LBE's passengers.

Also, its nice to see they are now "contemplating" a terminal expansion as opposed to going ahead with it. Simply not needed; Spirit has reached stagnation there and is slowly reducing frequency.
http://triblive.com/local/westmoreland/12597995-74/arnold-palmer-regional-airport-to-get-scaled-back-apron-rehab
FLYi

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