One thing that's interesting is the elimination of split departure and arrival levels. With few exceptions only smaller regional airports have everything on one level. I'm not sure I'm sold on that but I'm willing to keep an open mind.

Here's my big issue-After STL was dehubbed (2009ish) we were going to demolish the D councorce but didn't because the airport director was encouraged by WN's growth. Low and behold, we reopened gates in the D concourse this summered added a bunch of WN destinations. By limiting PIT's terminals this possibility will never happen. Not to mention, they are also dumping tons of cash.

They've been working on the master plan for 3 years. Amazon's RFP is only a week old. Having said that I'm sure they wanted this released before the RFP closes which is next month IIRC.

They have been working on "A" related design plan for less than 2 years, not 3. This is the first public view of this relatively detailed grandiose design. IMO, this release timing is directly related to the Amazon RFP, particularly since a key requirement is "proximity to an "International" Airport, with Daily Direct flights to Seattle (HQ1), New York, San Francisco/Bay Area, and Washington, D.C." If I was evaluating a submitted Pittsburgh proposal, the city would be eliminated as non-compliant on that requirement alone, as PIT cannot guarantee that any airline will service those routes by the Proposal submission date. This deficiency is even more pronounced when you view it relative to the other potential competitors. So the ? becomes, what would entice a major airline to commit starting non-stop daily service between PIT and SEA/SFO within the next 2 months - IMO - nothing other than huge $ incentives - not going to happen. If I were preparing the PIT proposal, I'd make every attempt to down play the airline route and International deficiency, by presenting a plan to aggressively pursue the required west coast routes as well as several DAILY International routes. I'd support my intent by presenting the $1B Plan as a regional commitment to the airport's near term growth.

The bottom image shows 28L/10R missing.

acentauri wrote:

They have been working on "A" related design plan for less than 2 years, not 3. This is the first public view of this relatively detailed grandiose design.

Actually 4 years.
"3.When did the Master Plan Update process start?
The ACAA started work on the MPU in October 2013."
http://pittransformed.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/FINALREWRITTEN-FAQS_BRANDEDVERSION_9122017_2_PDFVersion.pdf

They did not come up with the "grandiose design" of mating a new landside terminal to the airside in a week. In fact hints have been dropped for at least a year. Ms Cassotis publicly stating the tram needs to go, the int'l arrival process needs to be streamlined, the fact they redid the floor in the airside core but not the landside terminal. Furthermore in August they stated master plan details would be unveiled in Sept. Again, this was before the Amazon RFP. But like I said they certainly wanted to get this out before that RFP closes.

acentauri wrote:

IMO, this release timing is directly related to the Amazon RFP, particularly since a key requirement is "proximity to an "International" Airport, with Daily Direct flights to Seattle (HQ1), New York, San Francisco/Bay Area, and Washington, D.C." If I was evaluating a submitted Pittsburgh proposal, the city would be eliminated as non-compliant on that requirement alone, as PIT cannot guarantee that any airline will service those routes by the Proposal submission date. This deficiency is even more pronounced when you view it relative to the other potential competitors. So the ? becomes, what would entice a major airline to commit starting non-stop daily service between PIT and SEA/SFO within the next 2 months - IMO - nothing other than huge $ incentives - not going to happen. If I were preparing the PIT proposal, I'd make every attempt to down play the airline route and International deficiency, by presenting a plan to aggressively pursue the required west coast routes as well as several DAILY International routes. I'd support my intent by presenting the $1B Plan as a regional commitment to the airport's near term growth.

The fact we lack a nonstop to SEA today is such a non-issue wrt Attracting Amazon. PIT will get a SEA flight even without Amazon, its just a matter of time. Of all the requirements in the RFP this is the easiest to rectify. Whomever lands HQ2 will shell out billions in incentives. CMH paid $1.7 million for service to the Bay Area. Are we really suppose to believe a couple million dollars to guarantee a SEA flight is an obstacle in an overall package totaling in the billions? The State would probably even pay an operator to fly a private shuttle for Amazon if that's what it takes. Its just not an issue.

ConcourseZ wrote:

The bottom image shows 28L/10R missing.

No its not. You don't know where 10R/28L lies in relation to that photo.

I do know where it lies in relation to the photo. There are several taxiways which connect to the left of 28C/10C. The photo does not show them nor are there existing roads to the left of the center runway. The image certainly does not show 14/32.

ConcourseZ wrote:

I do know where it lies in relation to the photo. There are several taxiways which connect to the left of 28C/10C. The photo does not show them nor are there existing roads to the left of the center runway. The image certainly does not show 14/32.

Correction, I was looking at 28R/10L.

If you have not already, I recommend watching the press release. Not a whole lot of additional info in it, I felt even more comfortable with the idea of the new landside terminal.

The big thing that was being made known is that these are only the most basic of renderings. They have not even hired an architect yet. So while it does look sort of bland with all the white, I would expect the final terminal to be more refined and "Pittsburgh like".

I had not looked at everything before I commented the first time... but I was sort of disappointed that they are tearing down the "knuckles" in A/B. I'm. Not a fan of the jet-bridge out of a jet-bridge type gates many airports have that they are planning on putting at the end both A and B terminals.

flightsimer wrote:

If you have not already, I recommend watching the press release. Not a whole lot of additional info in it, I felt even more comfortable with the idea of the new landside terminal.

The big thing that was being made known is that these are only the most basic of renderings. They have not even hired an architect yet. So while it does look sort of bland with all the white, I would expect the final terminal to be more refined and "Pittsburgh like".

I had not looked at everything before I commented the first time... but I was sort of disappointed that they are tearing down the "knuckles" in A/B. I'm. Not a fan of the jet-bridge out of a jet-bridge type gates many airports have that they are planning on putting at the end both A and B terminals.

Ricondo & Associates has their name attached to the video. However they appear to be more into operational design and planning than architecture. But here are some of their other projects including Abu Dhabi which this design appears to be modeled after.
http://www.ricondo.com/our-services/projects.php

I agree this is all very preliminary. They might even go with a complete rebuild of the concourses while they are at it. I don't see how they are architecturally compatible with any new landside building.

YNG pushing Southern Airways to consider YNG-PIT:
http://www.vindy.com/news/2017/sep/13/officials-step-up-efforts-to-attract-air/?mobile

I would really like to see the ACAA try to incorporate some small funding to get the 28X line up to par. Remove the IKEA stop, add luggage racks, address some traffic choke points along the route with PennDot, possibly even rebrand the line to boost ridership. A modest cash infusion to address that line should go a long way considering the whole spine line BRT that PAT is planning clocks in at $200 million. Small tweaks should chop at least 20 minutes off the travel time each way.

Otherwise, for a lot of the students, tourists not renting a car, or city residents who don't own cars, it'll be the same frustrating or expensive situation to get to the new gleaming airport.

Does anyone know if the current 28C can be extended? If 28L is mothballed, a longer, new 28L would be good.

AaronPGH wrote:

I would really like to see the ACAA try to incorporate some small funding to get the 28X line up to par. Remove the IKEA stop, add luggage racks, address some traffic choke points along the route with PennDot, possibly even rebrand the line to boost ridership. A modest cash infusion to address that line should go a long way considering the whole spine line BRT that PAT is planning clocks in at $200 million. Small tweaks should chop at least 20 minutes off the travel time each way.

Otherwise, for a lot of the students, tourists not renting a car, or city residents who don't own cars, it'll be the same frustrating or expensive situation to get to the new gleaming airport.

Agreed, this would be best. Somehow someway. As the region's only public transit option to the airport, it is lacking. The 28X should not be going through the shopping center to get to the airport but does due to the service cuts they had to make a few years ago.
About eight years PAT worked with a consulting firm on a Transit Development Plan to improve routes and service. One of the results was the 28X would run straight from Downtown/Oakland to the Airport via the West Busway and the G1 would service Robinson. It was actually implemented seven years ago: http://transitpgh.blogspot.com/2010/11/ ... -this.html

Maybe someday the 28X will go back to a direct connection with more frequency and/or service times.

flyPIT wrote:

acentauri wrote:

They have been working on "A" related design plan for less than 2 years, not 3. This is the first public view of this relatively detailed grandiose design.

Actually 4 years.
"3.When did the Master Plan Update process start?
The ACAA started work on the MPU in October 2013."
http://pittransformed.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/FINALREWRITTEN-FAQS_BRANDEDVERSION_9122017_2_PDFVersion.pdf

They did not come up with the "grandiose design" of mating a new landside terminal to the airside in a week. In fact hints have been dropped for at least a year. Ms Cassotis publicly stating the tram needs to go, the int'l arrival process needs to be streamlined, the fact they redid the floor in the airside core but not the landside terminal. Furthermore in August they stated master plan details would be unveiled in Sept. Again, this was before the Amazon RFP. But like I said they certainly wanted to get this out before that RFP closes.

acentauri wrote:

IMO, this release timing is directly related to the Amazon RFP, particularly since a key requirement is "proximity to an "International" Airport, with Daily Direct flights to Seattle (HQ1), New York, San Francisco/Bay Area, and Washington, D.C." If I was evaluating a submitted Pittsburgh proposal, the city would be eliminated as non-compliant on that requirement alone, as PIT cannot guarantee that any airline will service those routes by the Proposal submission date. This deficiency is even more pronounced when you view it relative to the other potential competitors. So the ? becomes, what would entice a major airline to commit starting non-stop daily service between PIT and SEA/SFO within the next 2 months - IMO - nothing other than huge $ incentives - not going to happen. If I were preparing the PIT proposal, I'd make every attempt to down play the airline route and International deficiency, by presenting a plan to aggressively pursue the required west coast routes as well as several DAILY International routes. I'd support my intent by presenting the $1B Plan as a regional commitment to the airport's near term growth.

The fact we lack a nonstop to SEA today is such a non-issue wrt Attracting Amazon. PIT will get a SEA flight even without Amazon, its just a matter of time. Of all the requirements in the RFP this is the easiest to rectify. Whomever lands HQ2 will shell out billions in incentives. CMH paid $1.7 million for service to the Bay Area. Are we really suppose to believe a couple million dollars to guarantee a SEA flight is an obstacle in an overall package totaling in the billions? The State would probably even pay an operator to fly a private shuttle for Amazon if that's what it takes. Its just not an issue.

ConcourseZ wrote:

The bottom image shows 28L/10R missing.

No its not. You don't know where 10R/28L lies in relation to that photo.

I was re-reading this article: http://triblive.com/local/allegheny/127 ... al-airport
and caught this nugget: "One hurdle for Amazon choosing Pittsburgh is the lack of a nonstop flight to Seattle. If Amazon chose Pittsburgh, nonstop service to Seattle could easily be added, Cassotis said, but the airport would like to have it before then."

So it can *easily* be added? If it is so easy why hasn't it been done yet? I know she is saying that because Amazon coming here would make demand for a SEA route but how do they know of current demand if it isn't offered? Chicken and egg scenario I guess. Who is the primary airline that serves SEA..Delta?

""There will be more land opened up for development. We heard there are people looking," said Cassotis, giving a nod to online retail giant Amazon, which is looking for a place for its sought-after second headquarters."

Hmm Amazon occupying the old landside terminal site?

CaptainMidnight wrote:

I was re-reading this article: http://triblive.com/local/allegheny/127 ... al-airport
and caught this nugget: "One hurdle for Amazon choosing Pittsburgh is the lack of a nonstop flight to Seattle. If Amazon chose Pittsburgh, nonstop service to Seattle could easily be added, Cassotis said, but the airport would like to have it before then."

So it can *easily* be added? If it is so easy why hasn't it been done yet? I know she is saying that because Amazon coming here would make demand for a SEA route but how do they know of current demand if it isn't offered? Chicken and egg scenario I guess. Who is the primary airline that serves SEA..Delta?

""There will be more land opened up for development. We heard there are people looking," said Cassotis, giving a nod to online retail giant Amazon, which is looking for a place for its sought-after second headquarters."

Hmm Amazon occupying the old landside terminal site?

For an airport that doesn't even have business/first class service to Los Angeles and off/on service to San Francisco, I wouldn't be exactly holding my breath on Seattle service.

GSP psgr wrote:

CaptainMidnight wrote:

I was re-reading this article: http://triblive.com/local/allegheny/127 ... al-airport
and caught this nugget: "One hurdle for Amazon choosing Pittsburgh is the lack of a nonstop flight to Seattle. If Amazon chose Pittsburgh, nonstop service to Seattle could easily be added, Cassotis said, but the airport would like to have it before then."

So it can *easily* be added? If it is so easy why hasn't it been done yet? I know she is saying that because Amazon coming here would make demand for a SEA route but how do they know of current demand if it isn't offered? Chicken and egg scenario I guess. Who is the primary airline that serves SEA..Delta?

""There will be more land opened up for development. We heard there are people looking," said Cassotis, giving a nod to online retail giant Amazon, which is looking for a place for its sought-after second headquarters."

Hmm Amazon occupying the old landside terminal site?

For an airport that doesn't even have business/first class service to Los Angeles and off/on service to San Francisco, I wouldn't be exactly holding my breath on Seattle service.

I agree, but Cassotis makes it seem like adding service to SEA would be at the relative snap of the finger and says they'd like to have it done before Amazon would even come here.

Ugh! How i hate this new forum software and how it positions the "quotes" when quoting someone....

I think starting SEA service would be easy... "Hey Airlines, here is a $X.XXX million incentive to start service, who wants it?"....

It's just that right now, I don't know if we have the 'demand' to serve SEA, when we can't even keep LAX/SFO...

I think that is what Mrs. C is saying.

Random thought popped into my head, can any widebodies fit in A or B?

Apologies if this has been mentioned and i missed it... But did anyone see that Qatar reposted their PIT-DOH Cargo flights? According to their schedules, it starts October 12th on a 77X.

http://www.qrcargo.com/docs/08.Summer%2 ... 202017.pdf

PITflier wrote:

Random thought popped into my head, can any widebodies fit in A or B?

They would fit on the outside of either concourse at certain gates. US would regularly park their 767-200s there.

CaptainMidnight wrote:

GSP psgr wrote:

CaptainMidnight wrote:

I was re-reading this article: http://triblive.com/local/allegheny/127 ... al-airport
and caught this nugget: "One hurdle for Amazon choosing Pittsburgh is the lack of a nonstop flight to Seattle. If Amazon chose Pittsburgh, nonstop service to Seattle could easily be added, Cassotis said, but the airport would like to have it before then."

So it can *easily* be added? If it is so easy why hasn't it been done yet? I know she is saying that because Amazon coming here would make demand for a SEA route but how do they know of current demand if it isn't offered? Chicken and egg scenario I guess. Who is the primary airline that serves SEA..Delta?

""There will be more land opened up for development. We heard there are people looking," said Cassotis, giving a nod to online retail giant Amazon, which is looking for a place for its sought-after second headquarters."

Hmm Amazon occupying the old landside terminal site?

For an airport that doesn't even have business/first class service to Los Angeles and off/on service to San Francisco, I wouldn't be exactly holding my breath on Seattle service.

I agree, but Cassotis makes it seem like adding service to SEA would be at the relative snap of the finger and says they'd like to have it done before Amazon would even come here.

United and American dominate LA and SFO. PIT doesn't fit into their hub schemes so whatever service we get from them is filler for their networks. SWA chief says PIT us under-served. WN could fly to the west coast. That might happen. As far as SEA/TAC, DL may pick that up as they are going after AS. DL could make a pre-emptive entry. Sounds like the incentives are there if anyone wants them. DL certainly has the name recognition and brand loyalty established here. All of these flights might happen soon. Too many other details always in the mix. Only the ACAA knows the status. My thoughts.

Re SEA, PIT is now the largest MSA by far without a nonstop flight. If AS and DL keep expanding at SEA then a PIT flight will happen in due time. Ms. Cassotis is right on point. My $ is on AS and hopefully they add SFO with it.

CaptainMidnight wrote:

Hmm Amazon occupying the old landside terminal site?

More like the existing long term and extended term lots, which will become available for development or added to the WTC site. Page 9:
http://pittransformed.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Public-PowerPoint-Final.pdf

IF Amazon chooses Pittsburgh they really need to be near downtown IMO. Lower Hill District site.

krod031 wrote:

Apologies if this has been mentioned and i missed it... But did anyone see that Qatar reposted their PIT-DOH Cargo flights? According to their schedules, it starts October 12th on a 77X.

http://www.qrcargo.com/docs/08.Summer%2 ... 202017.pdf

That's freakin' awesome, lets hope it actually begins this time. Very similar schedule from before, however outbound from PIT there will be a flight to LGG in addition to LUX.

flyPIT wrote:

Re SEA, PIT is now the largest MSA by far without a nonstop flight. If AS and DL keep expanding at SEA then a PIT flight will happen in due time. Ms. Cassotis is right on point. My $ is on AS and hopefully they add SFO with it.

CaptainMidnight wrote:

Hmm Amazon occupying the old landside terminal site?

More like the existing long term and extended term lots, which will become available for development or added to the WTC site. Page 9:
http://pittransformed.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Public-PowerPoint-Final.pdf

IF Amazon chooses Pittsburgh they really need to be near downtown IMO. Lower Hill District site.

krod031 wrote:

Apologies if this has been mentioned and i missed it... But did anyone see that Qatar reposted their PIT-DOH Cargo flights? According to their schedules, it starts October 12th on a 77X.

http://www.qrcargo.com/docs/08.Summer%2 ... 202017.pdf

That's freakin' awesome, lets hope it actually begins this time. Very similar schedule from before, however outbound from PIT there will be a flight to LGG in addition to LUX.

For Amazon, why not the ALMONO site?

Qatar was hiring a few months ago. This looks like it will finally start.

ConcourseZ wrote:

Qatar was hiring a few months ago. This looks like it will finally start.

It's official; I started a separate thread about it.

flyPIT wrote:

One thing that's interesting is the elimination of split departure and arrival levels. With few exceptions only smaller regional airports have everything on one level. I'm not sure I'm sold on that but I'm willing to keep an open mind.

Somewhere in the press materials I remembered seeing a comment that the single level concept is expected to be a long term cost control measure. No elevators, escalators, or accessibility costs associated with those things.

Will be interested to see how it works.

What's everybody's thoughts on the reduction in gates? It's a larger reduction than I had expected, actually.

I think I understand the "dynamic gate" concept that will offset the gross reduction in gates, but whats the real potential for expansion with only 50 some gates?

You never know what the future may hold. Southwest could decide to do something large, something like Amazon could come along to be a game changer, new industries, etc.

I would be more comfortable if Ms. Cassotis would stop beating the "we aren't a hub anymore" drum for a moment and just say "But if some unforeseen chance shows itself - Here's how we would be ready, and why we would be attractive."

PitTraveler wrote:

flyPIT wrote:

One thing that's interesting is the elimination of split departure and arrival levels. With few exceptions only smaller regional airports have everything on one level. I'm not sure I'm sold on that but I'm willing to keep an open mind.

Somewhere in the press materials I remembered seeing a comment that the single level concept is expected to be a long term cost control measure. No elevators, escalators, or accessibility costs associated with those things.

Will be interested to see how it works.

What's everybody's thoughts on the reduction in gates? It's a larger reduction than I had expected, actually.

I think I understand the "dynamic gate" concept that will offset the gross reduction in gates, but whats the real potential for expansion with only 50 some gates?

You never know what the future may hold. Southwest could decide to do something large, something like Amazon could come along to be a game changer, new industries, etc.

I would be more comfortable if Ms. Cassotis would stop beating the "we aren't a hub anymore" drum for a moment and just say "But if some unforeseen chance shows itself - Here's how we would be ready, and why we would be attractive."

Christine wants people to focus on the situation now, which is fine. Even with the new terminal building, it looks like there is room to add some gates off of the existing "X" gate facility, if needed. If an unforeseen big surge in traffic happens, then some major construction/re-alignments would be needed. My opinion.

During the Q&A at the end of the press conference video ( https://www.facebook.com/PITairport/vid ... 0405383933 ) , she says the new terminal will be built for 18 million pax per year, and easily expandable up to 25 million. Seems like more than enough space for any kind of growth.

For any city which Amazon picks for HQ2 it's such a no brainer that domestic routes would be added in a nanosecond.

To me the real question is what is meant by international service in Amazons requirements. Is PIT or CVG token international service adequate. Or does Amazon really mean an airport like Dulles or ORD or ATL? Adding that level of international service at PIT, MCI, BNA, CMH, STL, etc to Asia and Europe is highly unlikely.

ncflyer wrote:

For any city which Amazon picks for HQ2 it's such a no brainer that domestic routes would be added in a nanosecond.

To me the real question is what is meant by international service in Amazons requirements. Is PIT or CVG token international service adequate. Or does Amazon really mean an airport like Dulles or ORD or ATL? Adding that level of international service at PIT, MCI, BNA, CMH, STL, etc to Asia and Europe is highly unlikely.

I don't think Amazon is going to go with a huge city like Chicago or Atlanta. I don't think those cities will give the kind of handouts that medium size markets will give. Plus those cities likely will not have the space available in the city core to allow Amazon to build a massive campus. Any of the cities you mention would come up with the subsidies necessary to add a bunch of flights. While it may not be the kind of network ORD and ATL has, they would surely add a flight to an Asian hub and maybe to another European hub. You could likely justify spending money on that. I hope which over municipality lands the new HQ doesn't mortgage the future of the state the way Wisconsin did with Foxconn.

Indy wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

For any city which Amazon picks for HQ2 it's such a no brainer that domestic routes would be added in a nanosecond.

To me the real question is what is meant by international service in Amazons requirements. Is PIT or CVG token international service adequate. Or does Amazon really mean an airport like Dulles or ORD or ATL? Adding that level of international service at PIT, MCI, BNA, CMH, STL, etc to Asia and Europe is highly unlikely.

I don't think Amazon is going to go with a huge city like Chicago or Atlanta. I don't think those cities will give the kind of handouts that medium size markets will give. Plus those cities likely will not have the space available in the city core to allow Amazon to build a massive campus. Any of the cities you mention would come up with the subsidies necessary to add a bunch of flights. While it may not be the kind of network ORD and ATL has, they would surely add a flight to an Asian hub and maybe to another European hub. You could likely justify spending money on that. I hope which over municipality lands the new HQ doesn't mortgage the future of the state the way Wisconsin did with Foxconn.

I have a gut feeling that it'll be either Detroit (lots of redevlopable space with first class air service) or Denver (highly educated, space isn't too expensive, good air connections).

GSP psgr wrote:

Indy wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

For any city which Amazon picks for HQ2 it's such a no brainer that domestic routes would be added in a nanosecond.

To me the real question is what is meant by international service in Amazons requirements. Is PIT or CVG token international service adequate. Or does Amazon really mean an airport like Dulles or ORD or ATL? Adding that level of international service at PIT, MCI, BNA, CMH, STL, etc to Asia and Europe is highly unlikely.

I don't think Amazon is going to go with a huge city like Chicago or Atlanta. I don't think those cities will give the kind of handouts that medium size markets will give. Plus those cities likely will not have the space available in the city core to allow Amazon to build a massive campus. Any of the cities you mention would come up with the subsidies necessary to add a bunch of flights. While it may not be the kind of network ORD and ATL has, they would surely add a flight to an Asian hub and maybe to another European hub. You could likely justify spending money on that. I hope which over municipality lands the new HQ doesn't mortgage the future of the state the way Wisconsin did with Foxconn.

I have a gut feeling that it'll be either Detroit (lots of redevlopable space with first class air service) or Denver (highly educated, space isn't too expensive, good air connections).

Detroit is a decent guess. For every city with a big strength like Detroit's air service, there is a weakness. For example, Detroit lacks an MIT or CMU type of engineering or AI presence. Although it's true UM isn't far away, and a good source of talent.

The Amazon situation is interesting for so many reasons. Will be fun to watch. We know what their list of priorities are, but not how they are weighted. For example, if air service is heavily weighted, Atlanta or Dallas sure feels like a winner. But if it's proximity to talent - maybe Boston?

Affordability and quality of life - Pittsburgh or Nashville maybe?

PitTraveler wrote:

GSP psgr wrote:

I have a gut feeling that it'll be either Detroit (lots of redevlopable space with first class air service) or Denver (highly educated, space isn't too expensive, good air connections).

Detroit is a decent guess. For every city with a big strength like Detroit's air service, there is a weakness. For example, Detroit lacks an MIT or CMU type of engineering or AI presence. Although it's true UM isn't far away, and a good source of talent.

The Amazon situation is interesting for so many reasons. Will be fun to watch. We know what their list of priorities are, but not how they are weighted. For example, if air service is heavily weighted, Atlanta or Dallas sure feels like a winner. But if it's proximity to talent - maybe Boston?

Affordability and quality of life - Pittsburgh or Nashville maybe?

Detroit's bigger problem is it's shambolic transit system, it makes PAT look world class. Pittsburgh's biggest weakness is the air service issue; but that's a relatively easier fix.

Some other thoughts: It won't be New York, DC, or Boston. All are too bloody expensive. I could see Philadelphia though. I also think it's an east of the Mississippi city for national balance; Denver's my western guess.

As for my guess at the top 10 candidates (in no order): PIT, PHL, DTW, DEN, RDU, AUS, ORD, MSP, ATL, CMH

I always love how CLE is like verboten in any serious discussion of Amazon yet PIT is a top-ten candidate.

Cleveland has actually had a faster growing economy than Pittsburgh for about 2+ years now. They're going to a high-growth area to recruit and retain candidates. No going to happen in SW PA (or NE Ohio for that matter either).

GSP psgr wrote:

PitTraveler wrote:

GSP psgr wrote:

I have a gut feeling that it'll be either Detroit (lots of redevlopable space with first class air service) or Denver (highly educated, space isn't too expensive, good air connections).

Detroit is a decent guess. For every city with a big strength like Detroit's air service, there is a weakness. For example, Detroit lacks an MIT or CMU type of engineering or AI presence. Although it's true UM isn't far away, and a good source of talent.

The Amazon situation is interesting for so many reasons. Will be fun to watch. We know what their list of priorities are, but not how they are weighted. For example, if air service is heavily weighted, Atlanta or Dallas sure feels like a winner. But if it's proximity to talent - maybe Boston?

Affordability and quality of life - Pittsburgh or Nashville maybe?

Detroit's bigger problem is it's shambolic transit system, it makes PAT look world class. Pittsburgh's biggest weakness is the air service issue; but that's a relatively easier fix.

Some other thoughts: It won't be New York, DC, or Boston. All are too bloody expensive. I could see Philadelphia though. I also think it's an east of the Mississippi city for national balance; Denver's my western guess.

As for my guess at the top 10 candidates (in no order): PIT, PHL, DTW, DEN, RDU, AUS, ORD, MSP, ATL, CMH

My colleagues from Detroit keep me very up to date on developmental things going around Detroit (sorry if I've just hijacked your thread). Last I know, from what they've sent me, huge development is going on Downtown including a new skyscraper. In my opinion that speaks new and a stronger infrastructure. I actually got a link from one of my colleagues yesterday explaining that at the very least, an "ATL style" transit system will be quickly built to connect a large and currently abandoned train station near Downtown, I also am interested to see how much time and money local business people are willing to put into it like Illitch, Gilbert and Gores. Just before I started typing I received a text with a link saying Amazon is planning a 3rd distribution center in Metro Detroit which shows Amazon's commitment to the area. As much as I'd like to see it come to Central Florida, we can't physically shove more people into a small area anymore, we're full. Detroit is claiming this is their Olympics, but I wish any city luck because this is a pretty big deal.

izbtmnhd wrote:

I always love how CLE is like verboten in any serious discussion of Amazon yet PIT is a top-ten candidate.

Cleveland has actually had a faster growing economy than Pittsburgh for about 2+ years now. They're going to a high-growth area to recruit and retain candidates. No going to happen in SW PA (or NE Ohio for that matter either).

Don't let population or economy numbers fool you, when you look below the surface of Pittsburgh there are drastic demographic shifts happening at a rapid rate – changes that give us a big boost for this HQ2: http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/ ... 1709140059

Clearly we've got a heavy case to make for ourselves, but I do think PGH has a real shot.

GSP psgr wrote:

PitTraveler wrote:

GSP psgr wrote:

I have a gut feeling that it'll be either Detroit (lots of redevlopable space with first class air service) or Denver (highly educated, space isn't too expensive, good air connections).

Detroit is a decent guess. For every city with a big strength like Detroit's air service, there is a weakness. For example, Detroit lacks an MIT or CMU type of engineering or AI presence. Although it's true UM isn't far away, and a good source of talent.

The Amazon situation is interesting for so many reasons. Will be fun to watch. We know what their list of priorities are, but not how they are weighted. For example, if air service is heavily weighted, Atlanta or Dallas sure feels like a winner. But if it's proximity to talent - maybe Boston?

Affordability and quality of life - Pittsburgh or Nashville maybe?

Detroit's bigger problem is it's shambolic transit system, it makes PAT look world class. Pittsburgh's biggest weakness is the air service issue; but that's a relatively easier fix.

Some other thoughts: It won't be New York, DC, or Boston. All are too bloody expensive. I could see Philadelphia though. I also think it's an east of the Mississippi city for national balance; Denver's my western guess.

As for my guess at the top 10 candidates (in no order): PIT, PHL, DTW, DEN, RDU, AUS, ORD, MSP, ATL, CMH

I think it will be Boston. Its the same reason Boston just convinced GE to pick them for their new headquarters. They have tons of air connections (including robust international). Close to talent such as MIT. Space downtown that they can develop. Already have a large office present that has been steadily growing. A really good public transit system. And a Governor that is willing to heavily sweeten the deal to land them. Also the chatter from inside Amazon makes it sound like Boston is a front runner. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... adquarters

I would love for that all to not be true. But I don't think Pittsburgh can offer a robust selection of flights even if Amazon opens up shop. Our international traffic needs lots of local demand + amazon traffic. New demand from Amazon employees alone won't be enought to add a bunch of new flights. Although it would surely help us get more west coast options.

http://www.post-gazette.com/business/te ... 1709140162

Why hop on a plane to ORD or MDW when you can ride in a Hyperloop pod? Real interesting to see if this actually comes to fruition.. Maybe it is something else Amazon will consider.

pitbosflyer wrote:

GSP psgr wrote:

PitTraveler wrote:

Detroit is a decent guess. For every city with a big strength like Detroit's air service, there is a weakness. For example, Detroit lacks an MIT or CMU type of engineering or AI presence. Although it's true UM isn't far away, and a good source of talent.

The Amazon situation is interesting for so many reasons. Will be fun to watch. We know what their list of priorities are, but not how they are weighted. For example, if air service is heavily weighted, Atlanta or Dallas sure feels like a winner. But if it's proximity to talent - maybe Boston?

Affordability and quality of life - Pittsburgh or Nashville maybe?

Detroit's bigger problem is it's shambolic transit system, it makes PAT look world class. Pittsburgh's biggest weakness is the air service issue; but that's a relatively easier fix.

Some other thoughts: It won't be New York, DC, or Boston. All are too bloody expensive. I could see Philadelphia though. I also think it's an east of the Mississippi city for national balance; Denver's my western guess.

As for my guess at the top 10 candidates (in no order): PIT, PHL, DTW, DEN, RDU, AUS, ORD, MSP, ATL, CMH

I think it will be Boston. Its the same reason Boston just convinced GE to pick them for their new headquarters. They have tons of air connections (including robust international). Close to talent such as MIT. Space downtown that they can develop. Already have a large office present that has been steadily growing. A really good public transit system. And a Governor that is willing to heavily sweeten the deal to land them. Also the chatter from inside Amazon makes it sound like Boston is a front runner. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... adquarters

I would love for that all to not be true. But I don't think Pittsburgh can offer a robust selection of flights even if Amazon opens up shop. Our international traffic needs lots of local demand + amazon traffic. New demand from Amazon employees alone won't be enought to add a bunch of new flights. Although it would surely help us get more west coast options.

My take is it will not be Denver. Amazon wants to be on the opposite end of the country. Same reason Austin won't be it plus the hurricane brings to light the vulnerability of being in that part of Texas long-term. Philadelphia....no. Too big and too congested and the research Amazon needs is not there. Same for Atlanta. Boston....could be but very expensive and traffic is horrible, just like Philadelphia and Atlanta. Detroit....a possibility, but the downtown is a mess. Millennials want to live in urban cores. Pittsburgh would seem to be a good all-arounder. A relatively short drive to DC. Short flights to the bigger cities. THE GLOBAL CENTER for AI and robotics. Influx of younger, educated people. High culture. Quality of life. Inexpensive to live. Pittsburgh just became a finalist for the Hyperloop. Another tech incentive to be here. Amazon has a research center here. Flights will be added if Amazon comes. There might be a bit of a rush amongst the airlines to add service. That being said, if a metro area decides to buy Amazon as it's pick, spend oodles in incentives, Bezos may grab at the biggest incentives. We can only speculate.

The list of cities Amazon is reportedly considering like when you are shopping for a house and have several ones you are interested in but they all have positives and negatives, you just have to weigh them appropriately and maybe make compromises..

Does Amazon own any private charter planes? I assume for the execs.

For the record, I don't think Pittsburgh gets Amazon HQ2, though I would not be surprised to see a smaller commitment like Google has at Bakery Square.

If Pittsburgh did land it, would that spur someone to put a hublet here (Southwest?, Delta a la RDU?, an Alaska Eastern operation)?

AaronPGH wrote:

izbtmnhd wrote:

I always love how CLE is like verboten in any serious discussion of Amazon yet PIT is a top-ten candidate.

Cleveland has actually had a faster growing economy than Pittsburgh for about 2+ years now. They're going to a high-growth area to recruit and retain candidates. No going to happen in SW PA (or NE Ohio for that matter either).

Don't let population or economy numbers fool you, when you look below the surface of Pittsburgh there are drastic demographic shifts happening at a rapid rate – changes that give us a big boost for this HQ2: http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/ ... 1709140059

Clearly we've got a heavy case to make for ourselves, but I do think PGH has a real shot.

No it really doesn't. SW Pa generates less jobs than NE Ohio now and it's not like NE Ohio is on fire. Needs to be in a job creation market and Pittsburgh is not that.

And NE Ohio's growth is not from manufacturing. It's health sector is growing at an insane 4-5% y-o-y which is why NE OH's job market is lifting past SW PA. Amazon is picking Boston or Denver or whatever trendy city is en-vogue.

PitTraveler wrote:

What's everybody's thoughts on the reduction in gates? It's a larger reduction than I had expected, actually.

I think I understand the "dynamic gate" concept that will offset the gross reduction in gates, but whats the real potential for expansion with only 50 some gates?

One thing I liked about Alternative 3 is that it would allow for much greater growth in the decades ahead. The chosen alternative is kinda boxed in there although there is room to add more gates in the intermediate term.

One thing I read that had me scratching my head:

"International arrivals’ space is poorly located
•Facility is too large"
Page 4:
http://pittransformed.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Public-PowerPoint-Final.pdf

As discussed a few weeks ago we had 5 scheduled int'l arrivals arrive within 45 minutes and a int'l United 787 diversion had to divert again to CLE because of it. Expensive for United and embarrassing for PIT. Considering they are heavily pursuing BA and/or Norwegian and Qatar Airways (passenger side) -all of which would be on the ground at the same time as our current European lineup - plus COPA and the China Charters. I can't imaging how they determined our current int'l facility is "too large".

Looks like Concourse C will maintain 6 int'l gates however and can be extended to add a couple more.

PitTraveler wrote:

I would be more comfortable if Ms. Cassotis would stop beating the "we aren't a hub anymore" drum for a moment and just say "But if some unforeseen chance shows itself - Here's how we would be ready, and why we would be attractive."

Agreed 100%

GSP psgr wrote:

I have a gut feeling that it'll be either Detroit (lots of redevlopable space with first class air service) or Denver (highly educated, space isn't too expensive, good air connections).

GSP psgr wrote:

Pittsburgh's biggest weakness is the air service issue; but that's a relatively easier fix.

Detroit does not have the top tier engineering and CS University that will be a requirement. We do.

If our biggest weakness is air service then we are looking good. If Amazon likes everything about Pittsburgh but the last remaining issue is flights to SEA and SFO all Bezos needs to do is place a call to Bradley Tilden and it will happen.

izbtmnhd wrote:

I always love how CLE is like verboten in any serious discussion of Amazon yet PIT is a top-ten candidate.

Cleveland has actually had a faster growing economy than Pittsburgh for about 2+ years now. They're going to a high-growth area to recruit and retain candidates. No going to happen in SW PA (or NE Ohio for that matter either).

Here are speculative short lists of potential contenders from 3 different tech industry publications:
PC Mag:
https://www.pcmag.com/news/356056/6-cit ... headquarte

Geekwire:
https://www.geekwire.com/2017/six-citie ... dquarters/

Venturebeat:
https://venturebeat.com/2017/09/07/5-u- ... r-for-hq2/

Cleveland is on none of them. Pittsburgh is the only city on all three. There's plenty of reasons with that, starting with CMU.

izbtmnhd wrote:

No it really doesn't. SW Pa generates less jobs than NE Ohio now and it's not like NE Ohio is on fire. Needs to be in a job creation market and Pittsburgh is not that.

And NE Ohio's growth is not from manufacturing. It's health sector is growing at an insane 4-5% y-o-y which is why NE OH's job market is lifting past SW PA.

Not according to this:
https://www.glassdoor.com/List/Best-Cities-for-Jobs-LST_KQ0,20.htm

izbtmnhd wrote:

Amazon is picking Boston or Denver or whatever trendy city is en-vogue.

This is what I see happening also. If they want everything on their list then no smaller city has a shot. Just adding Amazon isn't going to magically add all these new flights. They aren't flying full airplanes of people a day places. It might tip the scale for some flights that are close to being started but it isn't going to open up a hub or focus city or anything. I think it is likely somewhere east of the Mississippi but there is no reason a larger city won't fit what they want. Those larger cities check pretty much every box on the list. All the things that people count as strikes against larger cities I don't think offset all the positives Amazon will see in them. There are just as many strikes against smaller cities. For every "cost of living is too high" in a bigger city there is a "you can't fly anywhere from there" for the smaller city. For every "it is too crowded" in the bigger city there is a "not enough workforce" or "poor mass transit" in the smaller city. I think people just want to look at the positives in their city and the negatives in the others.

The idea that Cleveland is more economically vibrant than Pittsburgh has no basis in reality. Cleveland continues to lose population and is now ranked behind Cincinnati. Pittsburgh is ranked above Cincinnati. Columbus may pas up Cleveland soon. The job prospects here are good. Many, many jobs for educated people available. Ohio, as a whole, is too dependent on the auto industry. If the auto industry bailout didn't happen in 2009, Ohio would have become a depressed state.

izbtmnhd wrote:

AaronPGH wrote:

izbtmnhd wrote:

I always love how CLE is like verboten in any serious discussion of Amazon yet PIT is a top-ten candidate.

Cleveland has actually had a faster growing economy than Pittsburgh for about 2+ years now. They're going to a high-growth area to recruit and retain candidates. No going to happen in SW PA (or NE Ohio for that matter either).

Don't let population or economy numbers fool you, when you look below the surface of Pittsburgh there are drastic demographic shifts happening at a rapid rate – changes that give us a big boost for this HQ2: http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/ ... 1709140059

Clearly we've got a heavy case to make for ourselves, but I do think PGH has a real shot.

No it really doesn't. SW Pa generates less jobs than NE Ohio now and it's not like NE Ohio is on fire. Needs to be in a job creation market and Pittsburgh is not that.

And NE Ohio's growth is not from manufacturing. It's health sector is growing at an insane 4-5% y-o-y which is why NE OH's job market is lifting past SW PA. Amazon is picking Boston or Denver or whatever trendy city is en-vogue.

I'll give you that Cleveland should be on the list of potential cities. It's as deserving as many other cities on the list. Only Amazon knows where PIT and CLE truly rank - probably low - but at other large entities have recently created tech job in PIT, including but not limited to Uber, Google, and the Government.

I'd have to see the data that shows Cleveland having stronger economic growth - if you have any sources, please do share. Per that last report published by the Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA), Pittsburgh was ahead of CLE in both nominal GDP $, real GDP $, and real GDP growth. The BEA will be publishing it's full-year 2016 report on September 20th, so we will know soon if this reversed in 2016.

The two biggest things PIT has going for it are (1) Carnegie Mellon's strong tech programs, and (2) it's affordability/reasonable cost of living. Having access to world-class healthcare also helps, while airport/worldwide accessibility hurts. I'm not sure if #1 or 2 are strong enough to outweigh other cities like Boston or Denver, but their at least two strong "positives" to have in PIT's camp.

heavymetal wrote:

izbtmnhd wrote:

AaronPGH wrote:

Don't let population or economy numbers fool you, when you look below the surface of Pittsburgh there are drastic demographic shifts happening at a rapid rate – changes that give us a big boost for this HQ2: http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/ ... 1709140059

Clearly we've got a heavy case to make for ourselves, but I do think PGH has a real shot.

No it really doesn't. SW Pa generates less jobs than NE Ohio now and it's not like NE Ohio is on fire. Needs to be in a job creation market and Pittsburgh is not that.

And NE Ohio's growth is not from manufacturing. It's health sector is growing at an insane 4-5% y-o-y which is why NE OH's job market is lifting past SW PA. Amazon is picking Boston or Denver or whatever trendy city is en-vogue.

I'll give you that Cleveland should be on the list of potential cities. It's as deserving as many other cities on the list. Only Amazon knows where PIT and CLE truly rank - probably low - but at other large entities have recently created tech job in PIT, including but not limited to Uber, Google, and the Government.

I'd have to see the data that shows Cleveland having stronger economic growth - if you have any sources, please do share. Per that last report published by the Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA), Pittsburgh was ahead of CLE in both nominal GDP $, real GDP $, and real GDP growth. The BEA will be publishing it's full-year 2016 report on September 20th, so we will know soon if this reversed in 2016.

The two biggest things PIT has going for it are (1) Carnegie Mellon's strong tech programs, and (2) it's affordability/reasonable cost of living. Having access to world-class healthcare also helps, while airport/worldwide accessibility hurts. I'm not sure if #1 or 2 are strong enough to outweigh other cities like Boston or Denver, but their at least two strong "positives" to have in PIT's camp.

Every city has advantages and every city has weaknesses. However, no city truly fulfills everything on Amazon’s demanding wish list, therefore it seems like it is too early to determine who the frontrunners are, until Amazon releases its finalists.

Midwestindy wrote:

Every city has advantages and every city has weaknesses. However, no city truly fulfills everything on Amazon’s demanding wish list, therefore it seems like it is too early to determine who the frontrunners are, until Amazon releases its finalists.

I think the cities that most closely match what Amazon wants are Boston, Chicago, and Toronto; both are hugely expensive though. Amazon would have to decide that they're comfortable going with a non-Alpha city for Pittsburgh, Cleveland, or even somewhere like Detroit or Minneapolis to win out.

GSP psgr wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

Amazon would have to decide that they're comfortable going with a non-Alpha city for Pittsburgh, Cleveland, or even somewhere like Detroit or Minneapolis to win out.

They did that the first time with Seattle, they could do it again the second. Totally different situation at this point, but Bezos thinks outside of the box.

I'm sorry Pittsburgh people but the Feds put out stats month after month and Cleveland, while not as pretty as the Steel City, is growing faster than Pittsburgh in term of jobs. It's all at
http://www.bls.gov

In Eds and Meds Cleveland is even further ahead in the rate of job growth. It is what it is.

Feel free to fight Trump over it! Haha

Amazon is coming to neither place, so who really cares?

It doesn't matter. Cleveland can't hold a candle to the tech climate in Pittsburgh.