4holer wrote:

I wonder if the new ownership of the website is scrambling to register the domain name escalators.net?

I'm sure the Kone and the Otis fanboys can't wait to get into it on the new forums.

paulsaz wrote:

AA had a 767 drop in yesterday as a sub ORD-PHX-DFW. Didn't get a chance to see it, we don't get a lot of AA widebody love in PHX, other than the A330.

I believe that will change. I think by end of year, our two AM HNL turns (7A&10A) will be combined into a single 10A turn on a 330 that comes in from CLT or DFW. The 757s aren't sticking around for forever and I think its just a matter of when the slack can be found in the 330 fleet by allocating 777/787 to the existing 330 routes.

This year I think we had had the 330 scheduled more than we ever have before and it has been packed every day on its way out (inbound not as much).

alasizon wrote:

paulsaz wrote:

AA had a 767 drop in yesterday as a sub ORD-PHX-DFW. Didn't get a chance to see it, we don't get a lot of AA widebody love in PHX, other than the A330.

I believe that will change. I think by end of year, our two AM HNL turns (7A&10A) will be combined into a single 10A turn on a 330 that comes in from CLT or DFW. The 757s aren't sticking around for forever and I think its just a matter of when the slack can be found in the 330 fleet by allocating 777/787 to the existing 330 routes.

This year I think we had had the 330 scheduled more than we ever have before and it has been packed every day on its way out (inbound not as much).

I thought they were transitioning to the MAX...has this changed recently? I've always been skeptical of them replacing the 757s with 737s, but always seem to hear that as the official line.

wn676 wrote:

alasizon wrote:

paulsaz wrote:

AA had a 767 drop in yesterday as a sub ORD-PHX-DFW. Didn't get a chance to see it, we don't get a lot of AA widebody love in PHX, other than the A330.

I believe that will change. I think by end of year, our two AM HNL turns (7A&10A) will be combined into a single 10A turn on a 330 that comes in from CLT or DFW. The 757s aren't sticking around for forever and I think its just a matter of when the slack can be found in the 330 fleet by allocating 777/787 to the existing 330 routes.

This year I think we had had the 330 scheduled more than we ever have before and it has been packed every day on its way out (inbound not as much).

I thought they were transitioning to the MAX...has this changed recently? I've always been skeptical of them replacing the 757s with 737s, but always seem to hear that as the official line.

I don't think the official line has been firmed up yet, but I suspect that if the MAX truly has the legs and the performance, then yes that will be the choice for everything but HNL. HNL uses so much cargo capacity that I think it will end up being on a widebody. I'm skeptical about the MAX performance in the heat given we have Hawaii departures departing around 1300-1500 which isn't kind to A/C performance. Hawaii certainly will not be dropped out of PHX but its a matter of finding the right combination of aircraft to meet the market. The 321NEO I don't think will have the legs either (when you factor in reality and not what the brochure says) and the 330 is too much plane for KOA & LIH except for during peak periods and I don't think the 330 could make it out of LIH. If the 767 wasn't going to be retired so soon, I could certainly see it operating in tandem with the DFW flights and the 787 simply doesn't have the slack. I think we will end up with some sort of MAX/NEO combo for OGG, KOA and LIH if the performance can be figured out. The other option is to add frequency and go for using some of the LAA sharkleted 319s which I believe do have the required legs and would probably add at least 1 additional flight a day per destination.

alasizon wrote:

wn676 wrote:

alasizon wrote:

I believe that will change. I think by end of year, our two AM HNL turns (7A&10A) will be combined into a single 10A turn on a 330 that comes in from CLT or DFW. The 757s aren't sticking around for forever and I think its just a matter of when the slack can be found in the 330 fleet by allocating 777/787 to the existing 330 routes.

This year I think we had had the 330 scheduled more than we ever have before and it has been packed every day on its way out (inbound not as much).

I thought they were transitioning to the MAX...has this changed recently? I've always been skeptical of them replacing the 757s with 737s, but always seem to hear that as the official line.

I don't think the official line has been firmed up yet, but I suspect that if the MAX truly has the legs and the performance, then yes that will be the choice for everything but HNL. HNL uses so much cargo capacity that I think it will end up being on a widebody. I'm skeptical about the MAX performance in the heat given we have Hawaii departures departing around 1300-1500 which isn't kind to A/C performance. Hawaii certainly will not be dropped out of PHX but its a matter of finding the right combination of aircraft to meet the market. The 321NEO I don't think will have the legs either (when you factor in reality and not what the brochure says) and the 330 is too much plane for KOA & LIH except for during peak periods and I don't think the 330 could make it out of LIH. If the 767 wasn't going to be retired so soon, I could certainly see it operating in tandem with the DFW flights and the 787 simply doesn't have the slack. I think we will end up with some sort of MAX/NEO combo for OGG, KOA and LIH if the performance can be figured out. The other option is to add frequency and go for using some of the LAA sharkleted 319s which I believe do have the required legs and would probably add at least 1 additional flight a day per destination.

I seem to recall sometime last year that the MAX was specifically mentioned over the NEO but I could be mistaken.

I certainly do not miss loading and unloading those HNL flights. Nothing like a 13k upload to start your morning. Agreed that cargo does dominate that route but then again AA did trade cargo capability for better economics moving to the 321H at LAX. I'm just not sure if cargo alone can justify the higher operating cost of a widebody over something like the MAX, in addition to the lost revenue from decreased connectivity and frequency; the early flights turn back to connect to the Flex bank and also compete against HA's schedule.

Still definitely skeptical though on takeoff performance, as you mentioned, especially in the mid to late afternoon. I remember the now-retired 240k 757s would often go out restricted in both the summer (heat) and winter (headwinds); surely the MAX couldn't do that much better. It would be intuitive as well to say that replacing two flights with one would be cheaper to operate. And we have seen AA move to the 772 seasonally out of DFW; if that were to ever go to the 330 I'd say PHX's chances would be considerably higher if it means they can save bringing the aircraft in from another hub and instead operate a W pattern.


Time will tell...and for the record, I really am pulling for the 330.

wn676 wrote:

alasizon wrote:

wn676 wrote:

I thought they were transitioning to the MAX...has this changed recently? I've always been skeptical of them replacing the 757s with 737s, but always seem to hear that as the official line.

I don't think the official line has been firmed up yet, but I suspect that if the MAX truly has the legs and the performance, then yes that will be the choice for everything but HNL. HNL uses so much cargo capacity that I think it will end up being on a widebody. I'm skeptical about the MAX performance in the heat given we have Hawaii departures departing around 1300-1500 which isn't kind to A/C performance. Hawaii certainly will not be dropped out of PHX but its a matter of finding the right combination of aircraft to meet the market. The 321NEO I don't think will have the legs either (when you factor in reality and not what the brochure says) and the 330 is too much plane for KOA & LIH except for during peak periods and I don't think the 330 could make it out of LIH. If the 767 wasn't going to be retired so soon, I could certainly see it operating in tandem with the DFW flights and the 787 simply doesn't have the slack. I think we will end up with some sort of MAX/NEO combo for OGG, KOA and LIH if the performance can be figured out. The other option is to add frequency and go for using some of the LAA sharkleted 319s which I believe do have the required legs and would probably add at least 1 additional flight a day per destination.

I seem to recall sometime last year that the MAX was specifically mentioned over the NEO but I could be mistaken.

I certainly do not miss loading and unloading those HNL flights. Nothing like a 13k upload to start your morning. Agreed that cargo does dominate that route but then again AA did trade cargo capability for better economics moving to the 321H at LAX. I'm just not sure if cargo alone can justify the higher operating cost of a widebody over something like the MAX, in addition to the lost revenue from decreased connectivity and frequency; the early flights turn back to connect to the Flex bank and also compete against HA's schedule.

Still definitely skeptical though on takeoff performance, as you mentioned, especially in the mid to late afternoon. I remember the now-retired 240k 757s would often go out restricted in both the summer (heat) and winter (headwinds); surely the MAX couldn't do that much better. It would be intuitive as well to say that replacing two flights with one would be cheaper to operate. And we have seen AA move to the 772 seasonally out of DFW; if that were to ever go to the 330 I'd say PHX's chances would be considerably higher if it means they can save bringing the aircraft in from another hub and instead operate a W pattern.


Time will tell...and for the record, I really am pulling for the 330.

For HNL specifically, I could see a very interesting pattern such as the below being operated on flex days. Adds seats (about 208, which is only 18 seats more than when the 18:00 757 departure is added) but given that the 767 is the mainstay of DFW-HNL, it allows for more widebody capacity and frees up the 772 for better usage.

CLT 0945
PHX 1130

PHX 1350
HNL 1800

HNL 2055
PHX 0555

PHX 0730
HNL 1130

HNL 1320
PHX 2210

PHX 2345
CLT 0650

Are any AA leased / branded gates widebody capable or do all of the widebody flights have to use the CUTE swing gates in N4?

Does AA pay for the CUTE gates in a per use basis or is certain access given to them as part of their general T4 lease?

I'm just curious if this impacts widebody usage by AA in any way out of PHX. Especially if WN decides it wants to launch international flights from PHX.

Vctony wrote:

Are any AA leased / branded gates widebody capable or do all of the widebody flights have to use the CUTE swing gates in N4?

Does AA pay for the CUTE gates in a per use basis or is certain access given to them as part of their general T4 lease?

I'm just curious if this impacts widebody usage by AA in any way out of PHX. Especially if WN decides it wants to launch international flights from PHX.

Currently none of the T4 regular gates are capable of widebody service. That being said, the new A30 could easily have a second lead-in line added that would be 332 capable (I don't think the length is there for the 333).

As far as payment for the CUTE gates go, its more or less a per-use fee structure for domestic flights. However, there are certain provisions that go on in the background that takes gates OOS, ASR, regating, use of B21 by OALs, etc. into consideration. I seem to recall hearing once that each segment at a CUTE gate cost $250 in use fees (so a HNL-PHX-OGG routing would cost $500) but I may be wrong.

As far as WN goes, I imagine they will launch once S1 is up and running because N4 would likely be reconfigured to allow for WN use of B19/B21 and AA would gain the lost gates back on S1.

alasizon wrote:

Vctony wrote:

Are any AA leased / branded gates widebody capable or do all of the widebody flights have to use the CUTE swing gates in N4?

Does AA pay for the CUTE gates in a per use basis or is certain access given to them as part of their general T4 lease?

I'm just curious if this impacts widebody usage by AA in any way out of PHX. Especially if WN decides it wants to launch international flights from PHX.

Currently none of the T4 regular gates are capable of widebody service. That being said, the new A30 could easily have a second lead-in line added that would be 332 capable (I don't think the length is there for the 333).

As far as payment for the CUTE gates go, its more or less a per-use fee structure for domestic flights. However, there are certain provisions that go on in the background that takes gates OOS, ASR, regating, use of B21 by OALs, etc. into consideration. I seem to recall hearing once that each segment at a CUTE gate cost $250 in use fees (so a HNL-PHX-OGG routing would cost $500) but I may be wrong.

As far as WN goes, I imagine they will launch once S1 is up and running because N4 would likely be reconfigured to allow for WN use of B19/B21 and AA would gain the lost gates back on S1.

Thanks for the explanation.

Has AA committed to some and/or all of S1?

Vctony wrote:

alasizon wrote:

Vctony wrote:

Are any AA leased / branded gates widebody capable or do all of the widebody flights have to use the CUTE swing gates in N4?

Does AA pay for the CUTE gates in a per use basis or is certain access given to them as part of their general T4 lease?

I'm just curious if this impacts widebody usage by AA in any way out of PHX. Especially if WN decides it wants to launch international flights from PHX.

Currently none of the T4 regular gates are capable of widebody service. That being said, the new A30 could easily have a second lead-in line added that would be 332 capable (I don't think the length is there for the 333).

As far as payment for the CUTE gates go, its more or less a per-use fee structure for domestic flights. However, there are certain provisions that go on in the background that takes gates OOS, ASR, regating, use of B21 by OALs, etc. into consideration. I seem to recall hearing once that each segment at a CUTE gate cost $250 in use fees (so a HNL-PHX-OGG routing would cost $500) but I may be wrong.

As far as WN goes, I imagine they will launch once S1 is up and running because N4 would likely be reconfigured to allow for WN use of B19/B21 and AA would gain the lost gates back on S1.

Has AA officially committed to some and/or all of S1?

Currently, no. I don't believe any of it is committed. I believe what will end up happening is S1 will be used to relocate Mainline capacity off N3 and N3 will end up as all Regional with the even side configured for E175s. Rough math says the lost 10 gates on N3 would be replaced by 8 gates on S1 and AA would lose 3 gates on N4 (B17-B21) for WN INTL with N3 becoming a 17-18 gate concourse for regional, a net gain of 3-4 gates depending on the layout. That would allow AA to add ~100 regional departures or so a day and still give some more room for growth. On the flip side, they could end up only taking the west half of S1 which would still allow for a net gain of 2-3 regional gates by redoing B4-B12 (B14-B7 would remain Mainline).

alasizon wrote:

paulsaz wrote:

AA had a 767 drop in yesterday as a sub ORD-PHX-DFW. Didn't get a chance to see it, we don't get a lot of AA widebody love in PHX, other than the A330.

I believe that will change. I think by end of year, our two AM HNL turns (7A&10A) will be combined into a single 10A turn on a 330 that comes in from CLT or DFW. The 757s aren't sticking around for forever and I think its just a matter of when the slack can be found in the 330 fleet by allocating 777/787 to the existing 330 routes.

This year I think we had had the 330 scheduled more than we ever have before and it has been packed every day on its way out (inbound not as much).

Are you talking a 332 or a 333? A 332 with it's current seating would result in a net drop of over 100 seats a day.
It would seem to me switching a 330 for a 787/777 on some of the European routes like VCE/ATH would be overkill. I could see the LHR routes going to 777's, again I will say I'm not in know and as a paying customer I would much prefer the 330 over the 787/777 if I have to fly coach.

910A wrote:

alasizon wrote:

paulsaz wrote:

AA had a 767 drop in yesterday as a sub ORD-PHX-DFW. Didn't get a chance to see it, we don't get a lot of AA widebody love in PHX, other than the A330.

I believe that will change. I think by end of year, our two AM HNL turns (7A&10A) will be combined into a single 10A turn on a 330 that comes in from CLT or DFW. The 757s aren't sticking around for forever and I think its just a matter of when the slack can be found in the 330 fleet by allocating 777/787 to the existing 330 routes.

This year I think we had had the 330 scheduled more than we ever have before and it has been packed every day on its way out (inbound not as much).

Are you talking a 332 or a 333? A 332 with it's current seating would result in a net drop of over 100 seats a day.
It would seem to me switching a 330 for a 787/777 on some of the European routes like VCE/ATH would be overkill. I could see the LHR routes going to 777's, again I will say I'm not in know and as a paying customer I would much prefer the 330 over the 787/777 if I have to fly coach.

I believe it would be a 333 which would be a 60 seat drop overall. Not ideal.

alasizon wrote:

I believe it would be a 333 which would be a 60 seat drop overall. Not ideal.

Makes more sense, I read the 333 now are going to stay until the end of 2018, hence the delay of the 350's. Hawaiian is retiring their 763 over the next two years, so I would expect to see them operate a 332 perhaps early next year from PHX.

910A wrote:

alasizon wrote:

I believe it would be a 333 which would be a 60 seat drop overall. Not ideal.

Makes more sense, I read the 333 now are going to stay until the end of 2018, hence the delay of the 350's. Hawaiian is retiring their 763 over the next two years, so I would expect to see them operate a 332 perhaps early next year from PHX.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the 333s end up staying for a lot longer and ending up as domestic birds. They work great for hub-hub and Hawaii.

paulsaz wrote:

AA had a 767 drop in yesterday as a sub ORD-PHX-DFW. Didn't get a chance to see it, we don't get a lot of AA widebody love in PHX, other than the A330.

Just a little correction, it was DFW-PHX-DFW.

910A wrote:

It would seem to me switching a 330 for a 787/777 on some of the European routes like VCE/ATH would be overkill.

VCE and ATH are both flown with the 333, so using the 772 or 788/9 would actually represent a loss of seats (although both versions of the 772 have a larger J cabin).

910A wrote:

Hawaiian is retiring their 763 over the next two years, so I would expect to see them operate a 332 perhaps early next year from PHX.

PHX will probably be one of the last to switch over since I believe it is only mainland station that does overnight maintenance checks on the 767.

Is the S1 project in the RFP process still or has the contract been awarded and they've started moving forward?

alasizon wrote:

910A wrote:

alasizon wrote:

I believe it would be a 333 which would be a 60 seat drop overall. Not ideal.

Makes more sense, I read the 333 now are going to stay until the end of 2018, hence the delay of the 350's. Hawaiian is retiring their 763 over the next two years, so I would expect to see them operate a 332 perhaps early next year from PHX.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the 333s end up staying for a lot longer and ending up as domestic birds. They work great for hub-hub and Hawaii.

I've wondered if they would end up doing to the 333s what UA has done to some of their 772s. Since they're already in a fairly dense configuration they could probably skip a retrofit, unless they could tighten up the J cabin even more.

Osubuckeyes wrote:

Is the S1 project in the RFP process still or has the contract been awarded and they've started moving forward?

An RFP for design has yet to be issued. The last I heard, it's still in the planning stage...HNTB was doing conceptual gate layouts a few months back.

Is it in the opinion of the other PHX fans that it's inevitable until AS starts PHX-Cali? With the 175's they could easily do LAX,SFO and maybe even SAN. Or heck maybe they'd send VX to start the service.
AS even flew to FLG and PRC to lax a handful of years ago(something else I hope returns).
I think the carrier with the most potential for growth in PHX is Alaska, we have suggested multiple times on this forum that our favorite airport is best suited for an airline of this size, not saying it will be a hub or even a focus city but there really aren't any airlines other than the current top 2 (AA & WN) that are growing. All the other airlines have been the same size in PHX for years, I wish things would get shaken up a bit.

allegiantflyer wrote:

Is it in the opinion of the other PHX fans that it's inevitable until AS starts PHX-Cali? With the 175's they could easily do LAX,SFO and maybe even SAN. Or heck maybe they'd send VX to start the service.
AS even flew to FLG and PRC to lax a handful of years ago(something else I hope returns).
I think the carrier with the most potential for growth in PHX is Alaska, we have suggested multiple times on this forum that our favorite airport is best suited for an airline of this size, not saying it will be a hub or even a focus city but there really aren't any airlines other than the current top 2 (AA & WN) that are growing. All the other airlines have been the same size in PHX for years, I wish things would get shaken up a bit.

I've long thought that if AA shrinks too much AS will partially fill the void. I do think that if the PHX hub is eliminated by AA (which is unlikely), AS would come to set up a focus city.

Otherwise, I'd expect most of the growth to be F9 (the airline that has grown the most at PHX) and WN with some opportunistic AS and DL growth, a stable UA, B6, HA, AC, WS, SY, NK, and some contraction by AA.

It would be nice to see HA get some competition on cargo out of PHX

With DL expanding in BOS considerably over the past year or two. I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibility to see PHX-BOS on DL. AA has a near monopoly. Additionally, I find it kind of amazing that AM can't manage to work anything out of PHX.

Hi, I'm visiting Phoenix next week and I hoping to get some shots of the Hawaiian flight leaving. I understand this is scheduled to leave at 8am, but can anyone help with the most likely runway to be used? Thanks!

Passenger numbers fell to 2009 numbers in 2016.

Osubuckeyes wrote:

With DL expanding in BOS considerably over the past year or two. I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibility to see PHX-BOS on DL. AA has a near monopoly. Additionally, I find it kind of amazing that AM can't manage to work anything out of PHX.

With only 1 flight as competition it's safe to say AA has monopoly on PHX-BOS

scbriml wrote:

Hi, I'm visiting Phoenix next week and I hoping to get some shots of the Hawaiian flight leaving. I understand this is scheduled to leave at 8am, but can anyone help with the most likely runway to be used? Thanks!

Usually it would be 7L, that's normally the departure runway in the morning.

scbriml wrote:

Hi, I'm visiting Phoenix next week and I hoping to get some shots of the Hawaiian flight leaving. I understand this is scheduled to leave at 8am, but can anyone help with the most likely runway to be used? Thanks!

Better than 90% of the time, it'll be 7L. The airport tends to be in East Flow in the mornings, then shifts around 10am. If operations dictated West Flow, then it would depart 25R, but it wouldn't be a common occurrence. I do recall on a few occasions when I worked in the TRACON that HAL requested an 8/26 departure, but it was very rare.

That said, BA B744s always come and go off the north runway. It's not hard to get some great photos of her landing with the Papagos in the background.

Enjoy Phoenix! The weather is great this time of year! My fiance will also be there next week, so she's been rubbing it in for weeks.

monsoon84 wrote:

Usually it would be 7L, that's normally the departure runway in the morning.

atcsundevil wrote:

Better than 90% of the time, it'll be 7L. The airport tends to be in East Flow in the mornings, then shifts around 10am. If operations dictated West Flow, then it would depart 25R, but it wouldn't be a common occurrence. I do recall on a few occasions when I worked in the TRACON that HAL requested an 8/26 departure, but it was very rare.

scbriml wrote:

Hi, I'm visiting Phoenix next week and I hoping to get some shots of the Hawaiian flight leaving. I understand this is scheduled to leave at 8am, but can anyone help with the most likely runway to be used? Thanks!

The majority of HA's departures use 8/26. 262 of the last 364 departures have used 8/26, or about 72%. This has been the case ever since HA moved their gate to the north side of T3.

7L/25R does see the bulk of the airport's departures, however.

wn676 wrote:

The majority of HA's departures use 8/26. 262 of the last 364 departures have used 8/26, or about 72%. This has been the case ever since HA moved their gate to the north side of T3.

7L/25R does see the bulk of the airport's departures, however.

Ah -- it's been a few years since I worked there, so clearly things have changed! I stand corrected.

atcsundevil wrote:

wn676 wrote:

The majority of HA's departures use 8/26. 262 of the last 364 departures have used 8/26, or about 72%. This has been the case ever since HA moved their gate to the north side of T3.

7L/25R does see the bulk of the airport's departures, however.

Ah -- it's been a few years since I worked there, so clearly things have changed! I stand corrected.

No worries....just didn't want to see him camped out somewhere like 40th and see Hawaiian go off the north side!

dc10lover wrote:

Passenger numbers fell to 2009 numbers in 2016.

What's your source? According to the airport's December 2016 stats, CY2016 saw 43,383,528 passengers. CY2009 totaled 37,824,982 passengers...obviously we're still well above that number. T4 alone saw about 8.1m more passengers than in did in 2009.

https://skyharbor.com/About/Information ... Statistics

Speaking of departure runways, anyone know why all the departures early Tuesday morning were off rwy 8? Saw several WN flights taxi over that way before mine departed from 7L like normal.

monsoon84 wrote:

Usually it would be 7L, that's normally the departure runway in the morning.

atcsundevil wrote:

Better than 90% of the time, it'll be 7L. The airport tends to be in East Flow in the mornings, then shifts around 10am. If operations dictated West Flow, then it would depart 25R, but it wouldn't be a common occurrence. I do recall on a few occasions when I worked in the TRACON that HAL requested an 8/26 departure, but it was very rare.

wn676 wrote:

The majority of HA's departures use 8/26. 262 of the last 364 departures have used 8/26, or about 72%. This has been the case ever since HA moved their gate to the north side of T3.

7L/25R does see the bulk of the airport's departures, however.

Guys, thanks for the info. So it looks like my best option is to head to the roof of the T4 carpark for the HA. Then I might head out to 40th to catch departures off 7L.

Thanks again!

Looks like WN will occupy S1 exclusively when it opens in 2021.

https://skyharbor.com/Media/PressReleas ... ent-in-phx

Maverick623 wrote:

Looks like WN will occupy S1 exclusively when it opens in 2021.

https://skyharbor.com/Media/PressReleas ... ent-in-phx

Heard that this will include a new BHS/CBIS for WN as well. Their current set up has, shall we say, some unique limitations, and has been a huge factor in restricting growth in PHX. The new two-bay hangar expansion is also about to enter the design phase; that project itself will increase their footprint considerably.

Maverick623 wrote:

Looks like WN will occupy S1 exclusively when it opens in 2021.

https://skyharbor.com/Media/PressReleas ... ent-in-phx

I can't see how WN needs another eight gates unless they grow considerably (to me three to four would have given them plenty of room). Congrats to PHX but a disappointment it wasn't AA as I think AA growth would have led to new markets that are currently unserved by PHX. Looks now like the only opportunity for AA to grow is to tighten up banks and share more gates between Mainline and Eagle.

wn676 wrote:

Heard that this will include a new BHS/CBIS for WN as well. Their current set up has, shall we say, some unique limitations, and has been a huge factor in restricting growth in PHX. The new two-bay hangar expansion is also about to enter the design phase; that project itself will increase their footprint considerably.

The BHS is much needed. To be fair, all of T4 is a bit of a mess in that department.

Maverick623 wrote:

Looks like WN will occupy S1 exclusively when it opens in 2021.

https://skyharbor.com/Media/PressReleas ... ent-in-phx

I guess Im a little disappointed, I was really hoping some of the under dogs would be given space to bring more competition for consumers, or maybe AA would have been able to serve new destinations that haven't been served before. All claps to WN.

With that said, I have zero idea what WN is going to do with a whole new concourse, that's a lot of space to expand with.

allegiantflyer wrote:

I guess Im a little disappointed, I was really hoping some of the under dogs would be given space to bring more competition for consumers, or maybe AA would have been able to serve new destinations that haven't been served before. All claps to WN.

Yes I found it a little disappointing as well, but to the point of adding more gates for smaller carriers, remember that T3 South will be opening with 5 more gates than are currently used today (though not a net increase in total gates). That could potentially represent dozens of additional flights.

alasizon wrote:

Maverick623 wrote:

Looks like WN will occupy S1 exclusively when it opens in 2021.

https://skyharbor.com/Media/PressReleas ... ent-in-phx

I can't see how WN needs another eight gates unless they grow considerably (to me three to four would have given them plenty of room). Congrats to PHX but a disappointment it wasn't AA as I think AA growth would have led to new markets that are currently unserved by PHX. Looks now like the only opportunity for AA to grow is to tighten up banks and share more gates between Mainline and Eagle.

I see AA in a bit of a tough spot now, considering of course that they actually intend to continue incrementally expanding. Unless they start filling out lighter banks or, as you mentioned, tightening them up, they're a little landlocked.

Are we sure WN is going to continue to occupy all of S3 and S4 once S1 is completed? It seems to me WN could move operations to S1, S2, and maybe trade some gates on S3 and/or S4 with carriers that currently are operating out of N4 to give them some international gates.

The only station in the WN system that currently has more than 30 gates is MDW. The gate count at MDW also includes international gates. There's no way that WN needs 32 domestic gates in PHX unless they plan on making PHX the largest station in the system. Remember WN operates approximately the same amount of daily departures out of DAL as it does PHX and it currently uses 16 gates in DAL.

I'd imagine that there has to be some sort of corresponding move that hasn't been made public as of yet.

Vctony wrote:

Are we sure WN is going to continue to occupy all of S3 and S4 once S1 is completed? It seems to me WN could move operations to S1, S2, and maybe trade some gates on S3 and/or S4 with carriers that currently are operating out of N4 to give them some international gates.

The only station in the WN system that currently has more than 30 gates is MDW. The gate count at MDW also includes international gates. There's no way that WN needs 32 domestic gates in PHX unless they plan on making PHX the largest station in the system. Remember WN operates approximately the same amount of daily departures out of DAL as it does PHX and it currently uses 16 gates in DAL.

I'd imagine that there has to be some sort of corresponding move that hasn't been made public as of yet.

Any idea what their gate count is in DEN? I agree that it seems unlikely they'll operate all 32 gates, not when there's flexibility in their current operation. Their operation used to be quite a bit larger at PHX several years ago IIRC, and that was done with the current 24 gate count. That tells me they have a fair amount of expansion possible within their current constraints. Since WN doesn't appear to be in the midst of a colossal fleet expansion, nor would it appear they'll focus growth specifically on PHX in the coming years, eight additional gates would be a poor utilization of facilities, and one I would assume they aren't willing to pay for. While I have no doubt that WN may be the sole tenant in S1, it makes me wonder what the plan is for S4 -- something tells me it won't involve WN, at least not exclusively.

atcsundevil wrote:

While I have no doubt that WN may be the sole tenant in S1, it makes me wonder what the plan is for S4 -- something tells me it won't involve WN, at least not exclusively.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they shift their operations from S4 to S3-S1. They won't be able to use one gate down there once the 300s leave the fleet. I wouldn't be at all disappointed if they did that either. I'm no fan of the C gates.

I know I've posted about this in the past, but it's interesting seeing how the WN operation has changed over the past 5-10 years. Remember when RON planes were double parked in the alley between S4/S3 and up against Twy R?

On another note, I wonder if they're going to update the murals in D with the new Heart livery?

atcsundevil wrote:

Vctony wrote:

Are we sure WN is going to continue to occupy all of S3 and S4 once S1 is completed? It seems to me WN could move operations to S1, S2, and maybe trade some gates on S3 and/or S4 with carriers that currently are operating out of N4 to give them some international gates.

The only station in the WN system that currently has more than 30 gates is MDW. The gate count at MDW also includes international gates. There's no way that WN needs 32 domestic gates in PHX unless they plan on making PHX the largest station in the system. Remember WN operates approximately the same amount of daily departures out of DAL as it does PHX and it currently uses 16 gates in DAL.

I'd imagine that there has to be some sort of corresponding move that hasn't been made public as of yet.

Any idea what their gate count is in DEN? I agree that it seems unlikely they'll operate all 32 gates, not when there's flexibility in their current operation. Their operation used to be quite a bit larger at PHX several years ago IIRC, and that was done with the current 24 gate count. That tells me they have a fair amount of expansion possible within their current constraints. Since WN doesn't appear to be in the midst of a colossal fleet expansion, nor would it appear they'll focus growth specifically on PHX in the coming years, eight additional gates would be a poor utilization of facilities, and one I would assume they aren't willing to pay for. While I have no doubt that WN may be the sole tenant in S1, it makes me wonder what the plan is for S4 -- something tells me it won't involve WN, at least not exclusively.

They have 24 gates in DEN (same as PHX).

There's an article on azcentral (attached below) where the WN president does indicate that they may be giving up gates on their other concourses:

http://www.azcentral.com/story/travel/a ... /98920440/

chrisair wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

While I have no doubt that WN may be the sole tenant in S1, it makes me wonder what the plan is for S4 -- something tells me it won't involve WN, at least not exclusively.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they shift their operations from S4 to S3-S1. They won't be able to use one gate down there once the 300s leave the fleet. I wouldn't be at all disappointed if they did that either. I'm no fan of the C gates.

I know I've posted about this in the past, but it's interesting seeing how the WN operation has changed over the past 5-10 years. Remember when RON planes were double parked in the alley between S4/S3 and up against Twy R?

On another note, I wonder if they're going to update the murals in D with the new Heart livery?

They still do RON aircraft in the alley (mostly Sa/Su).

I didn't even think about the possibility of WN giving up S4 to other carriers which certainly would put things back in balance and lead to WN having a better concourse layout/experience from a passenger perspective.

WN has 4 C gates that can't fit anything bigger than a 737-700W. It's cheaper for WN to build 8 new 737-800MAX available gates. This will in short term give WN 4 new gates for expansion. It will also give WN the future flexibility to close down 4 C gates at a time to redo spacing and fuel pits making all C gates 737-800MAX capable by 2025 and beyond if growth opportunities are available.

From my understanding C gates 1 and 11 will be eliminated
To accomplish the required spacing. Giving WN 6 new gates when all is accomplished 2025 and beyond.

Flyguy

Vctony wrote:

They have 24 gates in DEN (same as PHX).

There's an article on azcentral (attached below) where the WN president does indicate that they may be giving up gates on their other concourses:

http://www.azcentral.com/story/travel/a ... /98920440/

And yet DEN manages something like 40+ more departures a day than PHX. Which I guess are numbers formerly seen in PHX. I guess it could be safely concluded that they have no reason for all four south piers.

alasizon wrote:

I didn't even think about the possibility of WN giving up S4 to other carriers which certainly would put things back in balance and lead to WN having a better concourse layout/experience from a passenger perspective.

Yeah, WN would get shiny new/newish concourses in S1 and S2, while retaining S3. If they move out of S4, it actually gives the city some incentive to do some minor renovations on S3/S4...they'll need to sell those gates somehow.

I hate to say this, because it would be devastating for AZA, but this is the perfect opening for G4.....

alasizon wrote:

They still do RON aircraft in the alley (mostly Sa/Su).

I haven't seen planes double parked like the old days in a while. Occasionally I'll see a -300 sitting on one of the RON spots that butt up against Twy R.

wnflyguy wrote:

From my understanding C gates 1 and 11 will be eliminated
To accomplish the required spacing. Giving WN 6 new gates when all is accomplished 2025 and beyond.

Not sure why they'd knock out C11 when they won't be able to use the one across the hall after the 300s are gone. Unless C12 is being redone to fit something larger.

chrisair wrote:

alasizon wrote:

They still do RON aircraft in the alley (mostly Sa/Su).

I haven't seen planes double parked like the old days in a while. Occasionally I'll see a -300 sitting on one of the RON spots that butt up against Twy R.

I'll admit its been a while since they have had more than the three RON spots filled. I think the last time I saw anything beyond that was back in Decemberish.

chrisair wrote:

wnflyguy wrote:

From my understanding C gates 1 and 11 will be eliminated
To accomplish the required spacing. Giving WN 6 new gates when all is accomplished 2025 and beyond.

Not sure why they'd knock out C11 when they won't be able to use the one across the hall after the 300s are gone. Unless C12 is being redone to fit something larger.

Presumably a removal of C11 would allow everything to swing over that way which would allow C12 to go from a pedestal jetway to a nicer and newer apron drive jetway as well as reduce the risk of someone smacking into the connector walkway. Of course if WN doesn't stay in S4, the point is more moot as the new tenant (whether it be AA or G4, the two most likely) would more than likely dictate the new layout.

I don't know what WN's standards are for wingtip spacing but S3 should be able to be adjusted to fit 700s in C1/C2/C8 and 800s in all the rest. I don't think they need to eliminate a gate there. If they do, C1 certainly makes the most sense.

Anyone know whose A340 is parked over at South Cargo? I saw it parked Thursday afternoon over at B24ish when my flight took off. Didn't get a good look at it, though.