Airliners.net

qf789 wrote:

MH is nearing a deal to purchase as many as 30 A330neos though price is still a sticking point so a firm order wont be placed until September at the earliest

https://www.ausbt.com.au/malaysia-airli ... eet-revamp

That's a lot of new aircraft. MH is also in the progress of adding 6-7 used A330s.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-airli ... SKBN18V120

KarelXWB wrote:

qf789 wrote:

MH is nearing a deal to purchase as many as 30 A330neos though price is still a sticking point so a firm order wont be placed until September at the earliest

https://www.ausbt.com.au/malaysia-airli ... eet-revamp

That's a lot of new aircraft. MH is also in the progress of adding 6-7 used A330s.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-airli ... SKBN18V120

I'm guessing the "pricing sticking point" is MH low-balling Airbus and Rolls on the A330-900 and Trent 7000, seeing how willing they are to undersell the planes and engines. Used A330-300s will save MH a significant amount of capital, but operating costs will be higher (more maintenance). So if they can get new for a similar capital outlay, they'll enjoy lower operating costs.

KarelXWB wrote:

That's a lot of new aircraft. MH is also in the progress of adding 6-7 used A330s.

Lets remember MH has something like 20 A330s operating and has already parked its earliest 20+ year old -300 frames.

So when all said and done its going to be largely a replacement game with a little extra for growth.

mercure1 wrote:

So when all said and done its going to be largely a replacement game with a little extra for growth.

Article mentions 15 aircraft for replacement, and the remainder for expansion. That's quite some growth.

whatThe wrote:

Reuters reports that they will sign a MoU for eight 787s (model not mentioned) as part of Malaysia's Prime Minster's visit to the US this week. Could be a more formal announcement later today.

Malaysia Airlines to announce deal to buy 8 Boeing 787 jets: sources

But why only 8? The requirement apparently was for 25 jets.

Reuters reports that they will sign a MoU for eight 787s (model not mentioned) as part of Malaysia's Prime Minster's visit to the US this week. Could be a more formal announcement later today.

Malaysia Airlines to announce deal to buy 8 Boeing 787 jets: sources

The following article from Malaysia says it might by up to 50 aircraft (that figure would almost certainly include options and purchase rights)

The Malaysian Insight understands that beleaguered flag carrier Malaysia Airlines could sign for up to 50 Boeing 787 Dreamliners for long-haul routes that it intends to restart as part of its road to another initial public offer (IPO).

http://www.themalaysianinsight.com/s/14161/

Bizzare so what becomes of the 6 soon to be delivered A359's? Are they leased? These possible 787's will replace the A333 fleet I'm guessing? Personally I thought A333/A359 was a good mix for MH, A333 can cover everywhere except Europe and is good on the 8-9 hr Australia routes. A350 can cover any additional Europe flying.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

whatThe wrote:

Reuters reports that they will sign a MoU for eight 787s (model not mentioned) as part of Malaysia's Prime Minster's visit to the US this week. Could be a more formal announcement later today.

Malaysia Airlines to announce deal to buy 8 Boeing 787 jets: sources

But why only 8? The requirement apparently was for 25 jets.

With 7 additional A330 leases, 6 A350s and 8 787s, wouldn't MH have enough capacity on order?

KarelXWB wrote:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

whatThe wrote:

Reuters reports that they will sign a MoU for eight 787s (model not mentioned) as part of Malaysia's Prime Minster's visit to the US this week. Could be a more formal announcement later today.

Malaysia Airlines to announce deal to buy 8 Boeing 787 jets: sources

But why only 8? The requirement apparently was for 25 jets.

With 7 additional A330 leases, 6 A350s and 8 787s, wouldn't MH have enough capacity on order?

I was under the impression that the order will be for the long term replacements of the A330 - at least that was how it was portrayed previously by Bellew.

So will it be up to 50 or just the 8?

Hey Folks,

Najib is in the US to visit Trump, and as part of the visit, a deal for 8 units of B787 is going to be announced:

http://www.todayonline.com/business/mal ... ts-sources

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/bus ... ts-9208664

Does anyone know for which variant?

Fantastic news for MH and Boeing; congrats to both!

intothinair wrote:

Hey Folks,

Najib is in the US to visit Trump, and as part of the visit, a deal for 8 units of B787 is going to be announced:

http://www.todayonline.com/business/mal ... ts-sources

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/bus ... ts-9208664

Does anyone know for which variant?

Fantastic news for MH and Boeing; congrats to both!

Honestly I don't see why MAS would want 787s, but let's see about the possibilities...

787-8.... Maybe so they have something smaller than A330-300s? Would also provide a long-and-thin plane that could do Europe probably less expensively than an A330-300/900
787-9.... Maybe for longer routes that aren't sizeable enough for the A350s?
787-10... For thicker regional routes that need more capacity than an A330-300/900?

Still I don't see why MAS just doesn't go for the A330-900... the A330-900 could theoretically reach Dublin or even Madrid after all.

The 787s would need to offer much lower CASM to offset the A330neo's lower costs regarding acquisition and staff retraining (or lack thereof).

I am still wondering why Boeing 787 and why only 8 aircraft?

Some possibilities:

1 Operate B787s to CDG and/or AMS to relaunch routes to EU. With Brexit looming, it may be wise to re-establish the EU routes. This may require 6 aircraft for a daily service.

2 Operate the B787s to AKL - it is well known that currently, the A333s have a small payload restriction for this route. They have said that the A350 might be too big for the route - so a B787 might just be optimal. With that, they can free up the A333s for the Asian routes.

3 I think that they are still on course for about 6-8 more used A333s for deployment on their Asian routes.

Another order for the longer term (maybe about 25 aircraft) to replace the existing A333s may be placed once MAB has sorted out the terms to their favour.

StudiodeKadent wrote:

intothinair wrote:

Hey Folks,

Najib is in the US to visit Trump, and as part of the visit, a deal for 8 units of B787 is going to be announced:

http://www.todayonline.com/business/mal ... ts-sources

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/bus ... ts-9208664

Does anyone know for which variant?

Fantastic news for MH and Boeing; congrats to both!

Honestly I don't see why MAS would want 787s, but let's see about the possibilities...

787-8.... Maybe so they have something smaller than A330-300s? Would also provide a long-and-thin plane that could do Europe probably less expensively than an A330-300/900
787-9.... Maybe for longer routes that aren't sizeable enough for the A350s?
787-10... For thicker regional routes that need more capacity than an A330-300/900?

Still I don't see why MAS just doesn't go for the A330-900... the A330-900 could theoretically reach Dublin or even Madrid after all.

The 787s would need to offer much lower CASM to offset the A330neo's lower costs regarding acquisition and staff retraining (or lack thereof).

I have to agree, I really don't know why MH didn't go for the A330neo, it should have been a perfect fit. They've stated they're not really interested in restarting European destinations, and from what I've heard the competition on TPAC is so severe it's pretty hard to make good money. With the investments they made in A330ceo/A350 recently the A339 should have won this contest easily.

But maybe that's one of the reasons. Perhaps Airbus thought this one is in the bag, therefore they didn't discount very heavily and Boeing did? It happened before with Silkair when they ordered the 737MAX instead of the A320neo.

I can't see Boeing discounting the 787-8 deeply though, it's almost as expensive to build as a 787-9, so that one I dismiss.
The 787-9 is a good airplane, but the A339 is pretty close in efficiency. It's would be quite a bit more expensive for MH IMO, and I don't think Boeing would discount desperately low, considering how much cost they need to recover on the 787 program.
Only the 787-10 could make sense, if MH wants larger aircraft than the A330 they are currently flying.

But I still wonder how the 787 could be considered the best option available to MH.

frigatebird wrote:

StudiodeKadent wrote:

intothinair wrote:

Hey Folks,

Najib is in the US to visit Trump, and as part of the visit, a deal for 8 units of B787 is going to be announced:

http://www.todayonline.com/business/mal ... ts-sources

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/bus ... ts-9208664

Does anyone know for which variant?

Fantastic news for MH and Boeing; congrats to both!

Honestly I don't see why MAS would want 787s, but let's see about the possibilities...

787-8.... Maybe so they have something smaller than A330-300s? Would also provide a long-and-thin plane that could do Europe probably less expensively than an A330-300/900
787-9.... Maybe for longer routes that aren't sizeable enough for the A350s?
787-10... For thicker regional routes that need more capacity than an A330-300/900?

Still I don't see why MAS just doesn't go for the A330-900... the A330-900 could theoretically reach Dublin or even Madrid after all.

The 787s would need to offer much lower CASM to offset the A330neo's lower costs regarding acquisition and staff retraining (or lack thereof).

I have to agree, I really don't know why MH didn't go for the A330neo, it should have been a perfect fit. They've stated they're not really interested in restarting European destinations, and from what I've heard the competition on TPAC is so severe it's pretty hard to make good money. With the investments they made in A330ceo/A350 recently the A339 should have won this contest easily.

But maybe that's one of the reasons. Perhaps Airbus thought this one is in the bag, therefore they didn't discount very heavily and Boeing did? It happened before with Silkair when they ordered the 737MAX instead of the A320neo.

I can't see Boeing discounting the 787-8 deeply though, it's almost as expensive to build as a 787-9, so that one I dismiss.
The 787-9 is a good airplane, but the A339 is pretty close in efficiency. It's would be quite a bit more expensive for MH IMO, and I don't think Boeing would discount desperately low, considering how much cost they need to recover on the 787 program.
Only the 787-10 could make sense, if MH wants larger aircraft than the A330 they are currently flying.

But I still wonder how the 787 could be considered the best option available to MH.

I agree with your analysis. The 787-10 seems to be the variant MH would be mostly interested in... but do MH have many very high density Asian routes where the A330s aren't enough?

frigatebird wrote:

StudiodeKadent wrote:

I can't see Boeing discounting the 787-8 deeply though, it's almost as expensive to build as a 787-9, so that one I dismiss.
The 787-9 is a good airplane, but the A339 is pretty close in efficiency. It's would be quite a bit more expensive for MH IMO, and I don't think Boeing would discount desperately low, considering how much cost they need to recover on the 787 program.

Boeing may not be able to offer low discounts on 787s, but with MH being a MAX customer, who's to say they didn't manage to wrangle additional discounts on their MAX purchase?

StudiodeKadent wrote:

I agree with your analysis. The 787-10 seems to be the variant MH would be mostly interested in... but do MH have many very high density Asian routes where the A330s aren't enough?

Thanks. Perhaps MH sees the 787-10 as the only option for a competitive advantage over Garuda (A339 on order), AirAsiaX (A339 on order) and Scoot (787-8/9 fleet). But let's wait and see which variant(s) MH will choose.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

frigatebird wrote:

StudiodeKadent wrote:

I can't see Boeing discounting the 787-8 deeply though, it's almost as expensive to build as a 787-9, so that one I dismiss.
The 787-9 is a good airplane, but the A339 is pretty close in efficiency. It's would be quite a bit more expensive for MH IMO, and I don't think Boeing would discount desperately low, considering how much cost they need to recover on the 787 program.

Boeing may not be able to offer low discounts on 787s, but with MH being a MAX customer, who's to say they didn't manage to wrangle additional discounts on their MAX purchase?

Maybe they got a free upgrade to the MAX-10, who knows

And no one in earth knows why. Makes no sense at all...

It appears that Malaysia Airlines has chosen Boeing for the wide body order. Awesome and congrats to Boeing.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/12/reuters ... urces.html

Jayafe wrote:

And no one in earth knows why. Makes no sense at all...

Because it's a great and amazing aircraft? Just a thought.

FriscoHeavy wrote:

Jayafe wrote:

And no one in earth knows why. Makes no sense at all...

Because it's a great and amazing aircraft? Just a thought.

But it doesn't seem to fit their existing fleet as well as the A339 would which is also a great and amazing aircraft. So is the A359s that United is getting, but many don't seem to think so...

Looks like it might be a mixed A/B order with only 8 purchased.

They could always lease some more, just like they will lease their A350s. We'll know when this deal will actually be announced later today.

frigatebird wrote:

I have to agree, I really don't know why MH didn't go for the A330neo, it should have been a perfect fit. They've stated they're not really interested in restarting European destinations, and from what I've heard the competition on TPAC is so severe it's pretty hard to make good money. With the investments they made in A330ceo/A350 recently the A339 should have won this contest easily.

MH mentioned new aircraft orders for expansion too. Perhaps the 787 can perform some (planned) routes the A330neo cannot do?

FriscoHeavy wrote:

Jayafe wrote:

And no one in earth knows why. Makes no sense at all...

Because it's a great and amazing aircraft? Just a thought.

An amazing aircraft, indeed, which doesnt fit MH fleet, routes or expected growth at all.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/malaysia ... nance.html

Did not see elsewhere, please delete if this is a duplicate.

The two sources said Malaysia Airlines considered buying Airbus A330neos before settling on the 787 order.

I'm kind of surprised the A330neo did not win. Cheaper to purchase, cheaper to maintain, lots of trained pilots around, lots of spare parts, etc. Good range, good capacity, good economy. What am I missing? Is it just not seen as being the thing to have? Or:

"This has happened before with Malaysia Airlines - and other airlines in this region for that matter - where the government has decided to buy an airplane that wasn’t really required," Singapore-based Sobie said. "I think in this case the 787 is required anyway. But now that it is a political thing there are questions."

A little more to add, looks like they are also adding more 737s, though that was more expected:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... yptr=yahoo

Revelation wrote:

I'm kind of surprised the A330neo did not win. Cheaper to purchase, cheaper to maintain, lots of trained pilots around, lots of spare parts, etc. Good range, good capacity, good economy. What am I missing?

Well a new a.net narrative appearing to be forming is that it's a move to get the US Department of Justice to loosen up on their investigation into the Malaysian Prime Minister's involvement in the 1MDB scandal. I am presuming MH's previous purchase of the A380 and leasing of the A350 has already appeased the European Union, so an additional A330neo order was not required.

Stitch wrote:

Revelation wrote:

I'm kind of surprised the A330neo did not win. Cheaper to purchase, cheaper to maintain, lots of trained pilots around, lots of spare parts, etc. Good range, good capacity, good economy. What am I missing?

Well the new a.net narrative appearing to be forming is that it's a move to get the US Department of Justice to loosen up on their investigation into the Malaysian Prime Minister's involvement in the 1MDB scandal. I am presuming MH's previous purchase of the A350 and A380 has already appeased the European Union, so an additional A330neo order was not required.

Interesting point.

Are the A350's still on order?

Otherwise, what a nice add for MH. Hopefully it goes well for them. They have recovered from losing two airplanes pretty well and are doing much better.

ClipperYankee wrote:

Stitch wrote:

Revelation wrote:

I'm kind of surprised the A330neo did not win. Cheaper to purchase, cheaper to maintain, lots of trained pilots around, lots of spare parts, etc. Good range, good capacity, good economy. What am I missing?

Well the new a.net narrative appearing to be forming is that it's a move to get the US Department of Justice to loosen up on their investigation into the Malaysian Prime Minister's involvement in the 1MDB scandal. I am presuming MH's previous purchase of the A350 and A380 has already appeased the European Union, so an additional A330neo order was not required.

Interesting point.

I'm going to speculate the model to be selected will be the 787-10, which would offer MH an option for greater capacity on regional routes compared to the A330-900 while also not duplicating the long-haul capabilities of their incoming A350-900s that the 787-9 would. As such, like the A350 and A380 orders, it's a decision based on merit more than politics.

NichCage wrote:

Are the A350's still on order?

They're being leased from AerCap and yes, that contract is still in effect.

NichCage wrote:

Are the A350's still on order?

Otherwise, what a nice add for MH. Hopefully it goes well for them. They have recovered from losing two airplanes pretty well and are doing much better.

The Bloomberg story seems to confirm the leased A350s are still on.

ClipperYankee wrote:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... yptr=yahoo

It kind of addresses my A330neo question:

Malaysia had been in talks for the European planemaker’s A330neo wide-body jets but had been unable to reach a deal on price, Chief Executive Officer Peter Bellew said in an interview in June.

Yet it doesn't seem likely Boeing would underbid the 787 versus the A330neo.

NichCage wrote:

Are the A350's still on order?

Bloomberg says:

The airline leased six Airbus A350s from Air Lease Corp. to offer flights to London next year.

So I presume the answer is 'yes'.

Stitch wrote:

I'm going to speculate the model to be selected will be the 787-10, which would offer MH an option for greater capacity on regional routes compared to the A330-900 while also not duplicating the long-haul capabilities of their incoming A350-900s that the 787-9 would.

Makes sense from an operational point of view, and ticks the political boxes as well...

I guess it is because the 339 cant reach europe without load restrictions unlike the 788/789? If the 7810 is chosen then it should be for its extra capacity. However, as a Malaysian it wouldn't surprise me to know that this order is of some political agenda. I do think the 789 is the best option for MH and its future route network (359 to LHR, 789 for europe expansion (AMS, CDG), AKL or even SYD while the 333 covers PEK, PVG, NRT, ICN, PER, TPE and HKG).

Jayafe wrote:

FriscoHeavy wrote:

Jayafe wrote:

And no one in earth knows why. Makes no sense at all...

Because it's a great and amazing aircraft? Just a thought.

An amazing aircraft, indeed, which doesnt fit MH fleet, routes or expected growth at all.

The only one of those 3 criticism that is even potentially valid is the first one (doesn't match their fleet). If you think the 787 doesn't fit MH's routes or expected growth than the A330neo will not be any better in those regards.

Revelation wrote:

What am I missing?

The 787 offers more range capabilities.

I'm surprised aswell, was really expecting a new order for more A350s (if they want to restart European routes like AMS and CDG) and A330NEOs to complement and eventually replace the existing A330-fleet for regional and medium haul routes.

Revelation wrote:

What am I missing?

KarelXWB wrote:

The 787 offers more range capabilities.

rttlnsnk wrote:

I guess it is because the 339 cant reach europe without load restrictions unlike the 788/789?

FLJ wrote:

I'm surprised aswell, was really expecting a new order for more A350s (if they want to restart European routes like AMS and CDG) and A330NEOs to complement and eventually replace the existing A330-fleet for regional and medium haul routes.

I don't see MH expanding back into Europe beyond the A350 service to London near-term - their current CEO Peter Bellew axed those routes because they were underperforming. Sure, the A350's will burn 20-25% less fuel than the 777-200ERs formerly on those routes, but fuel is "cheap" and the capital costs of the A350s will be far higher. So adding more would not really change the equation to make those axed routes suddenly profitable, IMO.

Bellew has stated his focus is on North Asia and increasing MH's average load factor from the 70th to 80th percentile range to those markets. He also wants to cut back on domestic capacity to keep away from the price war currently being engaged by Malaysian LCCs in that market. All of which favors the 787-10 model of the family - it has the range for North Asia at full payload and it offers room to grow if they are successful in expanding into Japan, Korea, Taiwan and China.

Did anyone mention 1MDB ? Maybe there is a deal pending.

Stitch wrote:

Revelation wrote:

I'm kind of surprised the A330neo did not win. Cheaper to purchase, cheaper to maintain, lots of trained pilots around, lots of spare parts, etc. Good range, good capacity, good economy. What am I missing?

Well a new a.net narrative appearing to be forming is that it's a move to get the US Department of Justice to loosen up on their investigation into the Malaysian Prime Minister's involvement in the 1MDB scandal. I am presuming MH's previous purchase of the A380 and leasing of the A350 has already appeased the European Union, so an additional A330neo order was not required.

The PM is not party to the DoJ investigation.

Bellew previously did say that the 787 was under consideration. Why can't this be a Boeing victory on merit?

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Stitch wrote:

Revelation wrote:

I'm kind of surprised the A330neo did not win. Cheaper to purchase, cheaper to maintain, lots of trained pilots around, lots of spare parts, etc. Good range, good capacity, good economy. What am I missing?

Well a new a.net narrative appearing to be forming is that it's a move to get the US Department of Justice to loosen up on their investigation into the Malaysian Prime Minister's involvement in the 1MDB scandal. I am presuming MH's previous purchase of the A380 and leasing of the A350 has already appeased the European Union, so an additional A330neo order was not required.

The PM is not party to the DoJ investigation.

Bellew previously did say that the 787 was under consideration. Why can't this be a Boeing victory on merit?

Because it smacks of politics.

Regardless of the cause, this is a big blow to the A330neo program, MH were seem as a shoe in not so long ago. Congrats to Boeing.

Armodeen wrote:

Because it smacks of politics.

Regardless of the cause, this is a big blow to the A330neo program, MH were seem as a shoe in not so long ago. Congrats to Boeing.

But why is it political? The 787 was on MH's list as well. It's not like they weren't considering it at all.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

But why is it political? The 787 was on MH's list as well. It's not like they weren't considering it at all.

Indeed, all the political smell, the visit to the US and the surprise with the announcement is just a coincidence

Jayafe wrote:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

But why is it political? The 787 was on MH's list as well. It's not like they weren't considering it at all.

Indeed, all the political smell, the visit to the US and the surprise with the announcement is just a coincidence

Just because a politician is making the announcements doesn't mean it's a politically motivated decision. Like I said, it could be that Boeing was able to offer good terms on MH's purchases. Don't forget that the airline also have 737MAX on order too.

Since there's already reports that the A330neo prices are a sticking point for Bellew, this could just as well be true.

I dont see anything fishy with order.

It been well known MH was considering the 787. There is a growing group of airlines that are also opting for 787/350 mix, so MH would not be unique. MH certainly has long relationship with Boeing over multiple models.
Also order announcement during PM trip to US is also quite logical the same manner Airbus orders are routinely announced during visits to France and Germany by foreign leaders.

Anyhow congrats Boeing. One can't deny the 787 has turned out to be an excellent aircraft across the industry after having a rough start.

Revelation wrote:

The two sources said Malaysia Airlines considered buying Airbus A330neos before settling on the 787 order.

I'm kind of surprised the A330neo did not win. Cheaper to purchase, cheaper to maintain, lots of trained pilots around, lots of spare parts, etc. Good range, good capacity, good economy. What am I missing? Is it just not seen as being the thing to have? Or:

"This has happened before with Malaysia Airlines - and other airlines in this region for that matter - where the government has decided to buy an airplane that wasn’t really required," Singapore-based Sobie said. "I think in this case the 787 is required anyway. But now that it is a political thing there are questions."

There are about 600 787s in service now. As more and more get built, production costs drop, allowing for lower prices (there is still a mountain of deferred production cost, but it is shrinking now). Maintenance costs drop as more MROs work on the 787 and get experience with the plane. Spare parts around the world are increasingly becoming more available and PMA options are entering the market. Reliability has also improved to around 99%. I believe that As time goes on the cost advantages of the A330neo begin to shrink. I think more recent 787 orders like this one along with Westjet and Air Tahiti Nui demonstrate that the 787 is coming closer to the A330neo in pricing and maintenance costs. The 787 can win a sales competition against the A330neo.

Jayafe wrote:

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

But why is it political? The 787 was on MH's list as well. It's not like they weren't considering it at all.

Indeed, all the political smell, the visit to the US and the surprise with the announcement is just a coincidence

So I guess we can presume every Airbus RFP win that has been or will be followed with a visit by an EU government official is also a purely political decision?

Makes you wonder how any airline makes money when all their fleet decisions are made to appease foreign politicians who happen to be in countries related to the various OEMs.