MH to place order for 25 widebodies by end of 2017

Channex757 · Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:29 pm

I would not be surprised if MH is kicking the tyres soon on those AerCap lease returns from Air Berlin. Pratt engined A330s are just what MH likes, and the deal would involve AerCap who they also deal with.

Some cheap, fast availability widebody lift for them?

A330freak · Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:41 pm

Signing of the order/MoU has taken place. Order is as follows.

“We intend to increase the number of Boeing planes to be purchased by MAS. We have committed to 25 planes of the 737 MAX 10, plus eight 787 Dreamliners, and a very strong probability—not possibility—that we will add 24-25 more 737 MAX 10 in the near future.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/malaysia ... 00746.html

And from their CEO, the aircraft will be delivered from May 2019. No mention of variant however a model of a -9 can be seen.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BY9X-HnH0PA/

I'd be interested to see how many options for the 787 they have or if they intend to lease more aircraft. As others have said, this order of 8 is much less than the number of aircraft they said they were looking for.

Stitch · Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:49 pm

A330freak wrote:
No mention of variant however a model of a -9 can be seen...I'd be interested to see how many options for the 787 they have or if they intend to lease more aircraft. As others have said, this order of 8 is much less than the number of aircraft they said they were looking for.

Current CEO Peter Bellew seems to be taking a more pragmatic view at running MH compared to his predecessors. The Malaysian air market is growing, but that growth seems to be from the LCCs who are currently engaged in a fare war which has driven down prices significantly, especially on domestic flights. So he may now feel that significantly increasing the widebody fleet is not a prudent idea and instead is starting smaller to handle planned expansion into North Asia.

LAXintl · Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:03 am

Boeing news release

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2017-09-12- ... 13471564=1

=

8 x 787-9
8 x 737MAX-8

Stitch · Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:12 am

LAXintl wrote:
Boeing news release:
8 x 787-9

Interesting. I would have expected the 787-10, but the 787-9 would give them similar passenger capacity to the A330-900 with more cargo space and much better range so it is a more flexible platform and more "future-proof" should they decide to launch more long-haul missions down the road.

TheFlyingDisk · Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:15 am

Stitch wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Boeing news release:
8 x 787-9

Interesting. I would have expected the 787-10, but the 787-9 would give them similar passenger capacity to the A330-900 with more cargo space and much better range so it is a more flexible platform and more "future-proof" should they decide to launch more long-haul missions down the road.

The 787-10 would be too similar in size to the A359 wouldn't it? Now that wouldn't have made sense.

qf789 · Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:19 am

LAXintl wrote:
Boeing news release

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2017-09-12- ... 13471564=1

=

8 x 787-9
8 x 737MAX-8

The MOU signed includes 8 787-9's by converting 8 existing 737MAX orders plus the 8 737MAX8 are purchase rights

behramjee · Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:19 am

This is a brave "outside the box" thinking move which is very well thought of.

Hopefully now the future "owned" WB fleet will revolve around the B789 for long haul and B781 for high density regional services.

Stitch · Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:23 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
The 787-10 would be too similar in size to the A359 wouldn't it? Now that wouldn't have made sense.

The 787-10 offers two more rows of Economy and 4 more LD3 positions so it's about 3% larger in passenger capacity and 10% larger in cargo capacity. However, I believe the better comparison would have been versus the A330-900 where the 787 is about 12% and 25% larger, respectively, in passenger and cargo.

jbs2886 · Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:55 am

qf789 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Boeing news release

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2017-09-12- ... 13471564=1

=

8 x 787-9
8 x 737MAX-8

The MOU signed includes 8 787-9's by converting 8 existing 737MAX orders plus the 8 737MAX8 are purchase rights

Those 737MAX orders must have had favorable conversion rights to the 787. Congrats to Boeing and MH.

jupiter2 · Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:04 am

I'm as surprised by the choice of the 787 as most, but saying that, it is an excellent choice. It will reach of all of Europe and will be just at home on the regional routes out of Malaysia. But the choice has sure gotten a lot of fan boys knickers in a knot, you'd think your favourite player has jumped ship to the cross town rival. The reality is that the 789 can do everything that MH needs now, while providing a possible ULH aircraft for the future. Should work well with their 359s.

Stitch · Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:13 am

While I also expected this order to go A330-900, the MH fleet is predominately Boeing by around a 2.5 to 1 ratio and MH has had a long relationship with Boeing going back to the 707 and including the 747 and 777. And they appear to have selected the 737 MAX as their narrowbody fleet going forward, including the MAX-10. So perhaps there is synergy with adding the 787-9, especially if they're looking at more conservative growth.

flee · Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:47 am

Stitch wrote:
While I also expected this order to go A330-900, the MH fleet is predominately Boeing by around a 2.5 to 1 ratio and MH has had a long relationship with Boeing going back to the 707 and including the 747 and 777. And they appear to have selected the 737 MAX as their narrowbody fleet going forward, including the MAX-10. So perhaps there is synergy with adding the 787-9, especially if they're looking at more conservative growth.

Yes, MAB has a long history with Boeing - their predecessor, Malaysia-Singapore Airlines (MSA) were one of the few airlines that had the 737-100.

Yes, many people here cannot see the rationale for the choice as they have stated that their focus is on China and Asia. A return to Europe is on the back burner.

However, this order won't see deliveries begin till 2019 - by then Brexit will be well on the way and there may be a need for MH to operate flights to the EU. As I said in my post upthread, they might want to return to AMS and CDG by then. They may also want to restart FRA.

The B789 (or even B787-10) may also be the replacement for the current A330 fleet. I suspect that is because it is available with GE engines - MAB does not seem to have a very good relationship with RR and there are no choices on the A350/A330 neo. So having a GE engined fleet of B787s will seem to be a good idea.

Momo1435 · Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:53 am

Political or not, this deal will provide them with a very versatile plane, capable of many different roles in a fleet. Congrats to MH and Boeing.

716131 · Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:22 am

Maybe the larger A350-1000 for the next aircraft or even the A350ULR

JerseyFlyer · Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:23 am

This is a "package deal" by Malaysia Inc.

The Bloomberg article says the Malaysian government pension fund will invest USD3 to 4 billion in US infrastructure development. It also strangely says the Malaysian govt will try to persuade Air Asia to use GE engines!

That said, the 789s will be a good solution for future EU and US routes where the A350 is too big, though they may be deployed regionally initially.

I can still see additional A330 ceos arriving by lease soon, and maybe neos also later, as they are better optimised for regional flying from KL.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... yptr=yahoo

flee · Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:50 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
It also strangely says the Malaysian govt will try to persuade Air Asia to use GE engines!

Yes, rather strange considering Airasia's fleet of A320s is exclusively on CFM-56 and CFM-LEAP-1A engines right now! So it is already a major user of GE technology and it even has a GE logojet in its fleet!

frigatebird · Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:01 am

mercure1 wrote:
I dont see anything fishy with order.

It been well known MH was considering the 787. There is a growing group of airlines that are also opting for 787/350 mix, so MH would not be unique. MH certainly has long relationship with Boeing over multiple models.
Also order announcement during PM trip to US is also quite logical the same manner Airbus orders are routinely announced during visits to France and Germany by foreign leaders.

Anyhow congrats Boeing. One can't deny the 787 has turned out to be an excellent aircraft across the industry after having a rough start.

True, many airlines will operate both 787 and A350 fleets. However just 8 and 6 of each seem to lack economy of scale.

And yes, aircraft deal are often announced by political leaders, indeed major Airbus are sometimes announced during visits of Germany or France. The following is rather unusual though:

JerseyFlyer wrote:
The Bloomberg article says(...) the Malaysian govt will try to persuade Air Asia to use GE engines!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... yptr=yahoo

The Boeing press release quote MH's CEO Peter Bellew: "....The extraordinary range of the 787-9 gives an ability to operate to any point in Europe and some USA destinations in the future from Kuala Lumpur..."

flee wrote:
However, this order won't see deliveries begin till 2019 - by then Brexit will be well on the way and there may be a need for MH to operate flights to the EU. As I said in my post upthread, they might want to return to AMS and CDG by then. They may also want to restart FRA.

Perhaps MH discovered the 787-9 can be operated to other European destinations profitably, the A350 being perhaps too large for destinations other than LHR. Just a guess, I don't know.

Momo1435 · Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:03 am

And if they don't use CFM engines they will have to use PW, which are even more American then CFM.

Well, they can always try to persuade Airbus to add GE engines as an option for the A350 and the A330neo. Not that it will happen, but it sounds good for the American public, Trump "trying his best" to secure American jobs.

Jayafe · Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:04 am

Stitch wrote:
So I guess we can presume every Airbus RFP win that has been or will be followed with a visit by an EU government official is also a purely political decision?

Makes you wonder how any airline makes money when all their fleet decisions are made to appease foreign politicians who happen to be in countries related to the various OEMs.

No one said all. This specific one is.

WIederling · Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:12 am

Stitch wrote:
Makes you wonder how any airline makes money when all their fleet decisions are made to appease foreign politicians who happen to be in countries related to the various OEMs.

Overbearing backstage pressuring has a long history with the US.
And nobody changes his "spots" overnight.
Enough communications released to make that obvious.
Then the MAGA drive would call for even more pressuring
as lack of wide interest in US made products is a reality.

KarelXWB · Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:06 am

Stitch wrote:
Bellew has stated his focus is on North Asia and increasing MH's average load factor from the 70th to 80th percentile range to those markets. He also wants to cut back on domestic capacity to keep away from the price war currently being engaged by Malaysian LCCs in that market. All of which favors the 787-10 model of the family - it has the range for North Asia at full payload and it offers room to grow if they are successful in expanding into Japan, Korea, Taiwan and China.

flee wrote:
The B789 (or even B787-10) may also be the replacement for the current A330 fleet.

Stitch wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Boeing news release:
8 x 787-9

Interesting. I would have expected the 787-10, but the 787-9 would give them similar passenger capacity to the A330-900 with more cargo space and much better range so it is a more flexible platform and more "future-proof" should they decide to launch more long-haul missions down the road.

It's a nice theory, but I doubt that's the reason why MH ordered a handful 787s.

Based on Aircraft Values, And Lease Pricing we know the A350/787 is an expensive airplane to just replace the A330. Combine that piece of information with the following quote of Malaysia Airlines' CEO:

Airline CEO Peter Bellew previously axed plans to send the A350 to Auckland, and ruled out other destinations such as Australia and Tokyo, saying "it’s an expensive aircraft and we have to find something meaty and significant to do with it. We hope to find something more than nine hours."

So if MH believes the A350 is too expensive for missions below nine hours, then for sure the 787 is too expensive as well because its price tag is in the same ballpark as the A350.

To me that sounds like MH will deploy the 787 on long-haul destinations, and have yet to select an A330 replacement aircraft.

flee · Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:17 am

KarelXWB, thanks for the analysis and it all makes sense. Do note that this MoU is a very political announcement, with the PM of Malaysia and Donald Trump boasting that it is good for the US economy! So I am not sure if this is going to be the final order that will be signed.

Also do note that this is a conversion of an order for the 737Max 8 - so perhaps, there might have been a discount that was big enough to tip the balance in favour of the 787.

scotron11 · Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:41 am

Stitch wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I'm kind of surprised the A330neo did not win. Cheaper to purchase, cheaper to maintain, lots of trained pilots around, lots of spare parts, etc. Good range, good capacity, good economy. What am I missing?

Well a new a.net narrative appearing to be forming is that it's a move to get the US Department of Justice to loosen up on their investigation into the Malaysian Prime Minister's involvement in the 1MDB scandal. I am presuming MH's previous purchase of the A380 and leasing of the A350 has already appeased the European Union, so an additional A330neo order was not required.

100% Stitch! I've followed the 1MDB saga for a while now....and this guy Najib is out to save his own skin. Not only the purchase of the 787, he also specifically mentioned GE engines....what a crook! This is an MOU right? Just wonder if that would change if Najib loses the upcoming election.

KarelXWB · Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:44 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
I can still see additional A330 ceos arriving by lease soon, and maybe neos also later, as they are better optimised for regional flying from KL.

Actually MH confirmed that a separate A330 lease deal for 7 second hand aircraft is still in the works.

PM · Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:50 am

flee wrote:
MAB does not seem to have a very good relationship with RR

Why would you say that?

flee · Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:51 am

Yes, the A330 lease is a short term urgent requirement. So it is separate from the long term A330 fleet replacement. I think they will be needed when the oldest of MAB's A333s reach 10 years of age, the replacements will kick in.

Airbus should not be complacent - already, the MAB CEO has said he does not like the crazy asking prices. Perhaps Boeing paid more attention to that statement than Airbus.

PM · Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:53 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
It also strangely says the Malaysian govt will try to persuade Air Asia to use GE engines!

A couple of years back Air Asia X did order GE CF6 on a handful (3?) of A330-200s. That order was later swallowed up into a big A330neo order with, of course, RR.

But something dodgy was going on.

flee · Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:54 am

PM wrote:
flee wrote:
MAB does not seem to have a very good relationship with RR
Why would you say that?

From their experience dealing with RR on the A380s - they had to ground some aircraft while waiting for spare parts. Fortunately, it was not such a serious issue because MAB does not utilise their A380s intensively.

PM · Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:55 am

flee wrote:
PM wrote:
flee wrote:
MAB does not seem to have a very good relationship with RR
Why would you say that?

From their experience dealing with RR on the A380s.

Which has been what? I'm not arguing. I just wasn't aware there was an issue.

KarelXWB · Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:50 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
I think more recent 787 orders like this one along with Westjet and Air Tahiti Nui demonstrate that the 787 is coming closer to the A330neo in pricing and maintenance costs.

The A330neo was not part of the RFP. Air Tahiti Nui is an A340 operator and the A330neo cannot perform routes like CDG-LAX and PPT-NRT. So it was quite obvious TN would need an 787 or A350 to replace the A340s.

KarelXWB · Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:01 am

LAXintl wrote:
Boeing news release

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2017-09-12- ... 13471564=1

=

8 x 787-9
8 x 737MAX-8

Press release includes a nice render of the aircraft:

81819 · Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:34 am

I always look at TAP Portugal and Finnair as examples when comparing the economics of the A330NEO and A350/787.

Finnair ordered the A350 for flights to Asia as it was the best suited for the missions they fly, whereas TAP P ordered the A330NEO as it was the best suited for their route network (South America).

Malaysia Airlines have always expressed their interest in the 787, but have been hesitant because of the purchase price. This suggests the economics and mission capability of the 787 best suits Malaysia Airlines aircraft needs.

NZ321 · Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:04 pm

Serious pong about this one IMHO. Agree with "smacks of politics" comments above. Makes no sense at all.

Polot · Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:12 pm

I guess this thread is a good indication of what all future threads will look like if a A330ceo customer opts for the 787 over the A330neo.

Some people here seem to think the A330neo is smaller/lighter and/or the 787 is larger/heavier than the two planes actually are. This will probably serve as a wakeup call for Airbus in regards to taking current A330ceo customers seriously when pitching the A330neo and not assume an automatic win. Perhaps that is why A330neo sales have been slow among airlines.

Revelation · Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:13 pm

NZ321 wrote:
Agree with "smacks of politics" comments above. Makes no sense at all.

I think I'd say it makes a small amount of sense, but the stench of politics is in the air.

MrHMSH · Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:17 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
I think more recent 787 orders like this one along with Westjet and Air Tahiti Nui demonstrate that the 787 is coming closer to the A330neo in pricing and maintenance costs.

The A330neo was not part of the RFP. Air Tahiti Nui is an A340 operator and the A330neo cannot perform routes like CDG-LAX and PPT-NRT. So it was quite obvious TN would need an 787 or A350 to replace the A340s.

You sure? CDG-LAX is only 4927nm, it's only marginally longer than NAN-LAX which is flown with the A333. PPT-LAX is even shorter.

Though I'm not sure how much we can take orders like this to be representative of how close the 787 is to matching the maintenance and pricing, there seems a stronger than normal whiff of politics here.

KarelXWB · Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:23 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
You sure? CDG-LAX is only 4927nm, it's only marginally longer than NAN-LAX which is flown with the A333. PPT-LAX is even shorter.

ESAD range would be longer. CDG-LAX and PPT-NRT are 12-hour routes, the A330neo cannot do that with the A340 payload.

MrHMSH · Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:27 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
You sure? CDG-LAX is only 4927nm, it's only marginally longer than NAN-LAX which is flown with the A333. PPT-LAX is even shorter.

ESAD range would be longer. CDG-LAX and PPT-NRT are 12-hour routes, the A330neo cannot do that with the A340 payload.

I see. Thanks for clarifying.

Jayafe · Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:33 pm

Polot wrote:
I guess this thread is a good indication of what all future threads will look like if a A330ceo customer opts for the 787 over the A330neo.

You mean is only indication of such thing? A political decision is not a trend...

KarelXWB · Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:33 pm

Revelation wrote:
The two sources said Malaysia Airlines considered buying Airbus A330neos before settling on the 787 order.

I'm kind of surprised the A330neo did not win. Cheaper to purchase, cheaper to maintain, lots of trained pilots around, lots of spare parts, etc. Good range, good capacity, good economy. What am I missing? Is it just not seen as being the thing to have? Or:

Interestingly, Peter Bellew on Twitter didn't rule out the A330neo at all (see below).

Note that MH secured A330neo lease options with Air Lease Corporation in 2015.

Is MH going to operate a handful aircraft of each type (A330ceo/A330neo/787/A350)?

https://twitter.com/peterbellew/status/ ... 5007017985

Momo1435 · Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:37 pm

Maybe one should see this order as a late replacement for the 777-200ERs.

They already operated both the 777s and the A333s with a identical lay-out. so operating a A330/A350 and 787 is not really that far fetched for this airline.

JerseyFlyer · Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:59 pm

Quoting PM
A couple of years back Air Asia X did order GE CF6 on a handful (3?) of A330-200s. That order was later swallowed up into a big A330neo order with, of course, RR.

But something dodgy was going on.

I remember that, it did seem odd. But Air Asia cannot hang GE on their large 333neo order! I suppose they do have a choice on any extra ceos they may take before the neos arrive.

As to the MAB potential neo order, which seems still on the cards, it seems Airbus is not wanting ti discount early sales too drastically, unlike Boeing on early 787 sales.

KarelXWB · Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:07 pm

rttlnsnk wrote:
I guess it is because the 339 cant reach europe without load restrictions unlike the 788/789?

As per AirAsia X the A330neo cannot reach Europe from KUL without payload restrictions.

frigatebird · Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:15 pm

KarelXWB wrote:

Is MH going to operate a handful aircraft of each type (A330ceo/A330neo/787/A350)?

And take out a leaf out TG's book? Looks like it. At least they could try and standardize on one engine manufacturer - but that would have to be RR.... Which would lead the PM to :hissyfit:

(Malaysia's PM, not our own dear PM, on the contrary :spin:

)

flee · Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:17 pm

NZ321 wrote:
Serious pong about this one IMHO. Agree with "smacks of politics" comments above. Makes no sense at all.

I think those who are not fully aware of the goings on at Malaysia Airlines in the past 20 or so years will not know about the level of political interference there is in the running of the airline.

This was supposed to cease with the establishment of MAB. The past practices were supposed to have ceased with the old company. But many observers of the airline are now saying that the temptation to get political mileage out of the state owned airline is too great. Lets hope that MAB stay on course and that this order is a purely business and commercial decision.

flee · Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:25 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
Maybe one should see this order as a late replacement for the 777-200ERs.

Yes, I think you may be correct. I have always thought that the sudden retirement of the 777s was premature.

Perhaps MAB thinks that 8 aircraft will be sufficient for the plans of a limited long haul network. I am hearing that KUL-AMS, KUL-NRT and KUL-AKL are potential routes for the B789. Perhaps KUL-NRT was included because there might be a possibility of restoring the NRT-LAX service.

Stitch · Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:16 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
It's a nice theory, but I doubt that's the reason why MH ordered a handful 787s...So if MH believes the A350 is too expensive for missions below nine hours, then for sure the 787 is too expensive as well because its price tag is in the same ballpark as the A350. To me that sounds like MH will deploy the 787 on long-haul destinations, and have yet to select an A330 replacement aircraft.

Well the 787-9 has the ability to be deployed on long-haul (over 8-10 hours) missions that the A330-900 cannot, so they could use it now on shorter missions and if their turnaround warrants restarting LH, they can move the 787s over to it. However, now that they're still evidently considering the A330-900 for North Asia, perhaps the 787-9 has the better economics to make a return to Europe work (with LHR specifically having high enough traffic to support the A350-900).

drgreendds · Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:40 pm

And there it is...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 9s-441069/

KarelXWB · Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:03 pm

As for additional A330s, perhaps Air Berlin's A330s will be placed at MH:

Malaysia Airlines Bhd. (MAB) still wants to lease additional Airbus A330s to cover short-term needs, despite the carrier’s new commitment to order Boeing 787-9s. Following the announcement of the 787 deal this week, the carrier “confirms that we are actively exploring [used] high-specification A330s,” MAB told Aviation Daily. The airline said it has had “very attractive offers from bankrupt European airlines,”

Malaysia Airlines Continues A330 Lease Negotiations

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