Saw a very interesting video while researching for a college paper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4lxLfBpO4o

Apparently Air France flew these between MIA and Haiti, as well as other destinations. Taking the low range into consideration, did Air France fly these over from Europe (via UK, Iceland, Greenland, Canada, etc) or was there a factory located in the United States, as United also operated this type of aircraft?

Also, any other examples of airlines operating aircraft in areas that wouldn't be typically expected? United's ATRs in Guam and Japan come to mind as well.

Blankbarcode wrote:

Saw a very interesting video while researching for a college paper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4lxLfBpO4o

Apparently Air France flew these between MIA and Haiti, as well as other destinations. Taking the low range into consideration, did Air France fly these over from Europe (via UK, Iceland, Greenland, Canada, etc) or was there a factory located in the United States, as United also operated this type of aircraft?

Also, any other examples of airlines operating aircraft in areas that wouldn't be typically expected? United's ATRs in Guam and Japan come to mind as well.

Sabena flew a 737 from DTW to YMX in the 1980s.

Don't know if these would fit your criteria but United and TWA 727's throughout Europe and Guyana Airways TU-154 at MIA and JFK, Delta Airlines Boeing 747 and Northwest Orient 707 at LHR

There are ways to ferry short range airplanes over long distances. Look at Hawaiian and how they got their DC9's and 717's to HNL from the factory (and back to the mainland when phasing out). It's easier from Europe to the US as the overwater distances are shorter - they can stop at Shannon, Rejkavik, Greenland, Gander, etc. And then it is a multi-top overland route to MIA for AF's CAravelles back in the '60's. To the South Pacific, they replace some seats with temporary fuel tanks to make it from the U.S. West Coast to HNL, and then can stop at multiple places (see today's "Island Hopper" flight on United from HNL to GUM with about 7 stops enroute.

Blankbarcode wrote:

or was there a factory located in the United States, as United also operated this type of aircraft?

No, they were all built in Toulouse and flown from there to their respective customers.

Air France had two resident Caravelles for many years and they only ever returned across the atlantic for maintenance.

One I remember was F-BJTA .

klm617 wrote:

Don't know if these would fit your criteria but United and TWA 727's throughout Europe and Guyana Airways TU-154 at MIA and JFK, Delta Airlines Boeing 747 and Northwest Orient 707 at LHR

Pan Am & Delta 727s throughout Europe as well

Delta 747 & NW 707s at LHR...I am assuming with DL, you meant back in the 70s.
DL & NW didn't serve LHR back then

Blankbarcode wrote:

Apparently Air France flew these between MIA and Haiti, as well as other destinations.

Air France still has short-haul ops from MIA with the A320

Speaking of MIA, Iberia used to have short haul ops (sort of a mini-hub) . to connect with the MAD flight.

First it was with DC-9s, then MD-87...and finally with A319s

727LOVER wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Don't know if these would fit your criteria but United and TWA 727's throughout Europe and Guyana Airways TU-154 at MIA and JFK, Delta Airlines Boeing 747 and Northwest Orient 707 at LHR

Pan Am & Delta 727s throughout Europe as well

Delta 747 & NW 707s at LHR...I am assuming with DL, you meant back in the 70s.
DL & NW didn't serve LHR back then

DL and NW had interline agreements with PA in the 70s . NW flew MSP-DTW-LHR and DL flew ATL-IAD-LHR

Blankbarcode wrote:

Also, any other examples of airlines operating aircraft in areas that wouldn't be typically expected? United's ATRs in Guam and Japan come to mind as well.

As far as I know, there's one AF A320 that flies around the Caribbean.

There was a sort of IB mini-hub at MIA for several years (with A319s, I think?) that served routes in Central and South America. I presume they (and AF today) had 5th freedoms, but I'm not sure.

Air France still has two A320s based in the French Caribbean that fly a bunch of regional routes. The biggest route it flies is a hopper route between Miami and Cayenne with stops in Port Au Prince, Fort de France and Pointe Pitre. AF has been flying to Miami for over 50 years, but it never flew Miami-Paris until 1986.

Braniff747SP wrote:

Blankbarcode wrote:

Also, any other examples of airlines operating aircraft in areas that wouldn't be typically expected? United's ATRs in Guam and Japan come to mind as well.

As far as I know, there's one AF A320 that flies around the Caribbean.

There was a sort of IB mini-hub at MIA for several years (with A319s, I think?) that served routes in Central and South America. I presume they (and AF today) had 5th freedoms, but I'm not sure.

The 2 AF A320s are based in the Caribbean, specifically at Point-a-Pitre (PTP), which is a D.O.M of France. Technically the flight is being flown to the U.S., from France - just not from Europe. The service is maintained year round, and also flies trunk routes within the French Caribbean DOM (notably, flying PTP-MIA, PTP-FDF, PTP-PAP, PTP-CAY as well as FDF-CAY, FDF-MIA, FDF-PTP). Of interest, though - is that AF also serves PAP from MIA (the A320s also do FDF-PAP and PTP-PAP). Haiti is not a D.O.M, so I wonder what the rules are that allow it.

This is the justification that Norweigan is using (seasonally) to serve PTP-BOS, PTP-JFK, PTP-BWI and PTP-FLL. As you can see though, the DY operation is much more focused on U.S. traffic.

The IB A320 mini-hub disbanded post September 2001. Tightened Visa restriction meant that passengers could no longer 'transit' via MIA without a U.S. Visa.

Also the Iberia DC-9 between MIA and Central America and British Eagle Viscount between IDL-BDA

[*]

klm617 wrote:

Also the Iberia DC-9 between MIA and Central America and British Eagle Viscount between IDL-BDA

I thought that operation used Britannias, not Viscounts.

Rajahdhani wrote:

[

The 2 AF A320s are based in the Caribbean, specifically at Point-a-Pitre (PTP), which is a D.O.M of France. Technically the flight is being flown to the U.S., from France - just not from Europe. The service is maintained year round, and also flies trunk routes within the French Caribbean DOM (notably, flying PTP-MIA, PTP-FDF, PTP-PAP, PTP-CAY as well as FDF-CAY, FDF-MIA, FDF-PTP). Of interest, though - is that AF also serves PAP from MIA (the A320s also do FDF-PAP and PTP-PAP). Haiti is not a D.O.M, so I wonder what the rules are that allow it.

This is the justification that Norweigan is using (seasonally) to serve PTP-BOS, PTP-JFK, PTP-BWI and PTP-FLL. As you can see though, the DY operation is much more focused on U.S. traffic.

Right - no 5th freedoms needed for flights ex-PTP, as it's covered by the open skies agreement between the US and the EU. Must have 5th freedoms for PAP-MIA, though.

Thanks for the informative post.

MAH4546 wrote:

Air France still has two A320s based in the French Caribbean that fly a bunch of regional routes. The biggest route it flies is a hopper route between Miami and Cayenne with stops in Port Au Prince, Fort de France and Pointe Pitre. AF has been flying to Miami for over 50 years, but it never flew Miami-Paris until 1986.

There are many earlier threads on this subject. Over the years AF has used the Caravelle, 727, 737 and A320 on the Caribbean routes from MIA.

klm617 wrote:

Sabena flew a 737 from DTW to YMX in the 1980s.

SN's DTW-YMX fights weren't operated by a 737. They were operated by an Air North 727, in full Air North colors.

SN typically used the middle gate at DTW's three gate Berry international terminal. The 727 seemed diminutive when there was a PA A310 on one side and a BA L-1011 on the other,

Air France also flew an A300 from JFK to FDF and PTP in the late 1970s. At the time, this was the only Airbus flying in North America, and the flights were supported by Airbus to build awareness of their aircraft in the US.

Like AF, KLM also operated a USA-Caribean network for many decades. This West-Indian network, as it was called, was launched by KLM in January 1935 to connect AUA-CUR. Over the years this network grew to link CUR and AUA with Venezuela, Haiti, Jamaica and in 1943 KLM received permission to open CUR-Miami. In 1964 KLM's West Indian network was renamed ALM and in 1969 KLM sold the airline to the Government of the Netherlands Antilles. In 1991 KLM regained a 40% share in ALM.


- MIA-CUR-MIA by KLM Convair


In the 1960's KLM DC8-50s and DC8-63s operated:
- JFK-AUA-JFK
- JFK-CUR-JFK
- JFK-SXM-JFK
- JFK-AUA-CUR-JFK

WA707atMSP wrote:

klm617 wrote:

Sabena flew a 737 from DTW to YMX in the 1980s.

SN's DTW-YMX fights weren't operated by a 737. They were operated by an Air North 727, in full Air North colors.

SN typically used the middle gate at DTW's three gate Berry international terminal. The 727 seemed diminutive when there was a PA A310 on one side and a BA L-1011 on the other,

I certainly was I have a picture of the Sabena 737 at Detroit. Later it was operated by a First Air 727 not Air North.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

klm617 wrote:

I certainly was I have a picture of the Sabena 737 at Detroit. Later it was operated by a First Air 727 not Air North.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

Thank you for the corrections! I had NO idea that SN 737s flew into DTW, and you're right about First Air, too.

WA707atMSP wrote:

klm617 wrote:

I certainly was I have a picture of the Sabena 737 at Detroit. Later it was operated by a First Air 727 not Air North.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

Thank you for the corrections! I had NO idea that SN 737s flew into DTW, and you're right about First Air, too.

If memory correct, Montreal-based regional carrier Nordair also operated tag-on services for Sabena for a while using 737-200s. They definitely did the same for El Al, operating between Mirabel airport (YMX) and certain U.S. points.

superjeff wrote:

[*]

klm617 wrote:

Also the Iberia DC-9 between MIA and Central America and British Eagle Viscount between IDL-BDA

I thought that operation used Britannias, not Viscounts.

British Eagle used Viscounts. BOAC used Britannias on IDL-BDA for a few years. In their August 1961 timetable BOAC had twice daily service IDL-BDA, one Britannia and one 707. Several flights continued to various Caribbean points.

There were also 6 707 nonstops a week in that timetable from IDL to several Caribbean points, plus one Britannia a week YUL-BDA-NAS-MBJ. All the BOAC Caribbean destinations were still British colonies then, like BDA still is today.

Flying a short-haul airliner on long(er) hauls, especially for positioning flights/ferry flights, etc. really is very much of a non - event.

You would probably be more surprised to hear that Danish charter airline Sterling (and it really did provide sterling service!) flew regularly to the US with Caravelles and 727s in the 1970s.... They operated heavy-weight variants of both types which I believe required only one stop en-route.

IIRC Varig flew Caravelle between GIG-MIA with 3 or 4 stops.

Viscount724 wrote:

WA707atMSP wrote:

klm617 wrote:

I certainly was I have a picture of the Sabena 737 at Detroit. Later it was operated by a First Air 727 not Air North.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

Thank you for the corrections! I had NO idea that SN 737s flew into DTW, and you're right about First Air, too.

If memory correct, Montreal-based regional carrier Nordair also operated tag-on services for Sabena for a while using 737-200s. They definitely did the same for El Al, operating between Mirabel airport (YMX) and certain U.S. points.

They did the Sabena 737 was leased to Nordair in the winter months to be operated by them there were times the Nordair 737 also showed up in Detroit. So I am sure there were many places in the Nordair network where the SN 737 showed up.