usflyer123
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:59 pm

is it currently being used only for LHR-KUL?
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DolphinAir747
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:44 pm

Surprised BA will not be buying them. BA needs a lot of new longhaul aircraft.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:55 pm

Having travelled in a Corsair 743 with more than 550 seats, I'm sure a 700 seats A380 will be much better.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:18 pm

DolphinAir747 wrote:
Surprised BA will not be buying them. BA needs a lot of new longhaul aircraft.


It still costs a fortune to redo entire A380 cabin assuming engines and other technical aspect match. MH filling premium cabin space with economy seats is relatively cheaper. I am sure they can put it back to its original config.

Are these flights one way ie., do they ferry empty plane back and pick passengers at a later date.

I think overall it is an excellent idea, there are lot of countries happy to charter these.
 
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LeCoqFrancais
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:25 pm

Aesma wrote:
Having travelled in a Corsair 743 with more than 550 seats, I'm sure a 700 seats A380 will be much better.

Yes, wasn't Air Austral supposed to operate an A380 with some 800 seats? Never happened however, which might be a good thing...
dtw2hyd wrote:
DolphinAir747 wrote:
Surprised BA will not be buying them. BA needs a lot of new longhaul aircraft.


It still costs a fortune to redo entire A380 cabin assuming engines and other technical aspect match. MH filling premium cabin space with economy seats is relatively cheaper. I am sure they can put it back to its original config.

Are these flights one way ie., do they ferry empty plane back and pick passengers at a later date.

I think overall it is an excellent idea, there are lot of countries happy to charter these.

I'm pretty sure both BA and MH have Trent powered A380s, as for the other specs, I really don't know.
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KarelXWB
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:32 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
What are used 380s going for?


Currently $114.7 to 224.5 million, see viewtopic.php?p=19137129
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Planesmart
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:57 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
What are used 380s going for?


Currently $114.7 to 224.5 million, see viewtopic.php?p=19137129


That's the disclosed offer prices. And the offer price is never THE price. No used A380's have ever been sold.

Sale / leaseback deals are not representative in any shape or form, as these are front, back or both end loaded. And tax issues, or absence of tax, muddy the waters further.
 
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:07 am

usflyer123 wrote:
is it currently being used only for LHR-KUL?


for scheduled flight, yes, those A380 only fly for the 2x daily KUL-LHR .
MH already signed agreements with local travel agencies for Umrah charter contract.
and the surplus A380 is doing those charter flights for routes KUL-JED and KUL-MED respectively
 
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:15 am

blueflyer wrote:
Tellingly this pilgrimage fleet will be operated in a stand-alone unit separate from MAS. An effective way to shield MAS from losses from the operations.


MAS did something similar action in past. If I'm not mistaken, the last Boeing 747-4H6 ,9M-MPQ for MAS was configured @ refurbished with high-density seats.
the configuration was 12F (in the nose section) and 442Y (upper deck all Y seats) , and this plane was specifically dedicated to MAS Charter division, and doing a lot of Hajj and umrah charter.
 
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:45 am

A 700 seater should be just fine. Do hajj charters have business class? Either way it will have normal pitch and seat width. The downstairs will feel like a roomier 747 charter, upstairs like a A346 with sloped walls.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:04 am

A380-800 can seat 853 single class
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:01 am

LeCoqFrancais wrote:
Malaysia Airlines Bhd. said it will use six surplus Airbus Group SE A380 superjumbos to form the core of a fleet of 700-seat jets dedicated to transporting Muslim travelers on the annual Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca.
Peter Bellew, the carrier’s chief executive officer, met with Airbus’s senior management in Toulouse, France, on Wednesday to hammer out details of the plan, he said in an interview, adding that the meetings were “very positive.”
Establishing a religious-charter operation is attractive because it would offer guaranteed revenues and predictable fares, passenger numbers and plane requirements, according to the CEO, who also looked at selling the A380s to Chinese airlines. The week-long Hajj and year-round Umrah pilgrimage could employ 20 superjumbos within five years and Bellew said the business might also tap further aircraft coming off lease or unwanted by other carriers.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... aysia-plan


From that article:
The business would most likely be established as a separate entity under Malaysian ownership and with a local air operator’s certificate, the CEO said.


Very nice to see something happening, finally. We have and had so many threads what the A388 should look like, what kind of wing it should have, how many the world needs ;-) and so on and so on. So this is finally a nice change.

Can anybody explain why he had to discuss this with Airbus? Will they do the conversion? You would think that replacing the seats could be done by an Asian company and not necessarily by Airbus.
Or is it because of:

Manufacturers have expressed an interest in participating in the new entity on an equity or risk-sharing basis, while other governments could even take an ownership, he said.


LeCoqFrancais wrote:
This would be a serious sardine can...

Actually no, if I may say so. As others have pointed out, if you divide the number of planned seats by the bigger cabin area of the A388 it should be ok or even better compared to what they usually use for that kind of flights.
 
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:30 am

Finally, some innovative use of the A380 (outside of EK)! I have long advocated that using the A380 exclusively as premium flagship severely limits its application, and that many A380 operators have a too premium confiuration which their route networks cannot sustain. As Tim Clark repeatedly says, other airlines "don't get" how the A380 works, and how its vast cabin space can be utilized efficiently.
This new operation by MAS will be closely observed by other airlines as a test case. If it works, we could see more of this in the future.
Looks like BA will have to look elsewhere for its used A380s...
 
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:30 am

Finally they get around this idea. This is the only way to get A380 work for them. Make them 850 seater, put the fleet into a separate subsidiary, and charter them out for flights to Mecca from all over the world. They probably don't need 6 for this purpose but at least it will allow them to break-even on 3 or 4 A380.
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:40 am

Aesma wrote:
Having travelled in a Corsair 743 with more than 550 seats, I'm sure a 700 seats A380 will be much better.


Assuming it will be all-Y class, an A380 with 700 seats should have about the same seating density as any current A380 in Y class, meaning better than most other widebodies. With high-density configurations (but still 10-abreast on the main deck), an A380 can accommodate over 800 passengers. Maximum certified seating per the type certificate is 853 (538 on main deck and 315 on upper deck).
 
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:48 am

j1960amme wrote:

> What are used 380s going for?

According to the Bloomberg Article, pretty much zero:


Hey, if the price is right, I'll buy one. And if it's free, I'd gladly take it off their hands ;)
 
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:12 am

I think that if MH can secure wet lease or charter contracts with Saudia and a few other countries like Indonesia, this might become a viable business. Using the A380 in a high density configuration will ensure that CASK/CASM is lower.
 
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Re: Malaysia Airlines retrofits Airbus A380 fleet for Hajj flights

Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:28 am

Don't forget that Malaysa alone has one of the largest population of Muslims in the world. They have a growing middle class so more who can afford to do the Hajj and Umrah trips. Perhaps too they might wet lease to other airlines in the Muslim world for similar use, at other times in the year wet lease to other airlines in the Muslim world, maybe in South Asia for other regional holiday use.
 
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:04 am

An update from the latest CAPA summit:

“We’re the proud owners of six spaceships, also known as A380s” -Malaysia Airlines CEO Peter Bellew

Malaysia Airlines will soon announce name for “Project Hope” that will move A380s to a separate Malaysian AOC for charters

Malaysia CEO Bellew: we will prove second-hand A380 market can work. We may even add A380s to Project Hope.


https://twitter.com/CAPA_Aviation

Sounds a bit desperate if you need to call it "Project Hope".
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flee
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:29 am

raylee67 wrote:
All MH needs in its network is A320/A321 to cover all Asian routes + 787 or A350 to cover Australia/NZ/London.

But now if they are stuck with the A380, may be they can consider converting them to 800-seat full economy class planes for Hajj flights. Wet lease them to Saudia for that.

The A380s will be retired from MH use from 2018 and will be replaced by A359s. After retirement, the A380s will be transferred to a dedicated charter carrier operating on a different AOC.

It is not clear whether they will also use the A359 for regional routes - they have taken options to lease the A339 but so far, nothing definitive was mentioned about replacing their current A330s.

For the narrow body fleet, it would appear that they have settled for the B737Max. See: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ts-427882/
 
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:59 am

Could that 'project hope' be the rumored dedicated hajj carrier?
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:17 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Could that 'project hope' be the rumored dedicated hajj carrier?

I would think so as well.

KarelXWB wrote:
Sounds a bit desperate if you need to call it "Project Hope".

Well, we have some a.net-members who would call the entire A380-programme that way. ;-)

Without kidding, let's see with what they will come up (name, concept, fleet, routes etc.). IIRC they wanted to start this new AOC until the end of this year.
 
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:08 pm

Would these examples be to expensive to refurbish/make attractive to NH?

They're already taking the 3 from the Skymark order/conversion. Is Hawaii the only use for the aircraft?

Could the MH birds fit (at lower than new costs), at NH - given that they are essentially taking 3 birds (at 'new' costs), if only they wished to expand in future?

Both the lessor, and Airbus would likely be glad to facilitate such a deal, as it would minimize risk to the current A380 lines, and the sooner the better, as far as the A380s sales are concerned.

At decent costs, the A380 could be a decent solution to high costs of operation at specific Japanese airports (NRT comes to mind), in the same way that KE uses theirs at ICN.

Is the Japanese market (with NH and JL) so much so different than the South Korean (with OZ and KE) that the A380 is not workable? Understanding that the Japanese market is perhaps more diverse (in the amount of airports capable of service in Japan, versus the number in South Korea, as well as different economies) - does that limit the ability of the A380 to operate where it does best, on hub-hub routes where slot restrictions, or capacity constraints make it shine? Or is it the Japanese ethos? Anecdotally, both JL and NH are known for their rather space luxurious international configurations. The A380s costs would have to be lowered quite significantly for it to work on the domestic-regional network profitably, so I doubt that we will see them deployed there.
 
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:42 pm

2175301 wrote:
BasilFawlty wrote:
Revelation wrote:
MAS can't find buyers for six frames all no older than five years.

Perhaps their asking price is too high? ;)


My understanding is that MAS was willing to take a noticeable loss, as any option they have is a loosing proposition.

So I doubt it was a question of price.


Everything has it's price. If they were offered at USD1, even IAG would buy with the wrong engines. It's a question of degree.

All we can be sure of, is they weren't prepared to go low enough, and/or they are not really serious about disposal.

Threatening to change the interiors and use on Hajj is probably a red herring, to speed the EK JV, including some legislative changes required.
 
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:47 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
Would these examples be to expensive to refurbish/make attractive to NH?

They're already taking the 3 from the Skymark order/conversion. Is Hawaii the only use for the aircraft?

Could the MH birds fit (at lower than new costs), at NH - given that they are essentially taking 3 birds (at 'new' costs), if only they wished to expand in future?

Both the lessor, and Airbus would likely be glad to facilitate such a deal, as it would minimize risk to the current A380 lines, and the sooner the better, as far as the A380s sales are concerned.

At decent costs, the A380 could be a decent solution to high costs of operation at specific Japanese airports (NRT comes to mind), in the same way that KE uses theirs at ICN.

Is the Japanese market (with NH and JL) so much so different than the South Korean (with OZ and KE) that the A380 is not workable? Understanding that the Japanese market is perhaps more diverse (in the amount of airports capable of service in Japan, versus the number in South Korea, as well as different economies) - does that limit the ability of the A380 to operate where it does best, on hub-hub routes where slot restrictions, or capacity constraints make it shine? Or is it the Japanese ethos? Anecdotally, both JL and NH are known for their rather space luxurious international configurations. The A380s costs would have to be lowered quite significantly for it to work on the domestic-regional network profitably, so I doubt that we will see them deployed there.


EK is getting the Skymark frames -- ref: Emirates just bought the jumbo jets that helped bankrupt another airline.

NH is getting new-built frames.
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:40 am

flee wrote:
Why does every airline specific A380 thread degenerate into another discussion about the A380 model's general failure in the marketplace?

This thread, like the SQ one, has gone way off topic.


Because the anti-A380 crowd can never resist an opportunity to dump on the aircraft. It's just the same ol' criticisms being repeated time and again, and some of them are baseless.

spacecookie wrote:
the a380 will never become profitable.)


I don't care, it isn't my money.

It's a magnificent machine, for me the most comfortable aircraft in the skies, the only aircraft on which I don't get claustrophobia after about seven hours flying. I will go out of my way to fly it.

Given that Emirates makes in work in almost all circumstances, from shorter haul NZ to Australia (three hours) to ULH DXB-AKL (seventeen hours), I scratch my head when I hear that other airlines have problems with it.

In this case, MAS was struggling financially long before the A380 - Wiki refers to the three periods of unprofitability in the last twenty or so years - and I'm pleased to see the new CEO thinking outside the box.

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Channex757
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:29 am

Lots of inaccuracies above for a start.

MH is talking about high density Hajj and Umrah work. Those tourists are NOT low yield. It's a once in a lifetime trip that the travel arrangers frequently get good money for organising, especially at Hajj time. South East Asia also has Umrah pilgrims year round. They don't take much baggage either. Using an A380 in high density is actually a good fit for the plane as the CASM will be rock bottom if the seat count is increased substantially.

In the quieter months MH could even charter the planes out. Indonesia is another big source of Umrah pilgrims.

I'm also seeing a lot of MH advertising online at the moment with keen fares ex-London. Looks like the new bosses are thinking constructively and even looking to expand into new areas of business. The premium heavy fitout of the A380 isn't doing any good at the moment but turning them into a high density people lugger for a solid source of traffic like Mecca is fresh new thinking and well within the capabilities of the A380. Perhaps these same pilgrims might appreciate something else beyond a clapped out 747 of which there are vanishingly fewer about nowadays.
 
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:14 am

mariner wrote:
flee wrote:
Why does every airline specific A380 thread degenerate into another discussion about the A380 model's general failure in the marketplace?

This thread, like the SQ one, has gone way off topic.


Because the anti-A380 crowd can never resist an opportunity to dump on the aircraft. It's just the same ol' criticisms being repeated time and again, and some of them are baseless.

spacecookie wrote:
the a380 will never become profitable.)


I don't care, it isn't my money.

It's a magnificent machine, for me the most comfortable aircraft in the skies, the only aircraft on which I don't get claustrophobia after about seven hours flying. I will go out of my way to fly it.

Given that Emirates makes in work in almost all circumstances, from shorter haul NZ to Australia (three hours) to ULH DXB-AKL (seventeen hours), I scratch my head when I hear that other airlines have problems with it.

In this case, MAS was struggling financially long before the A380 - Wiki refers to the three periods of unprofitability in the last twenty or so years - and I'm pleased to see the new CEO thinking outside the box.

mariner


I like the a380, I am on one right now (dab-Bcn)
The problem is that in very limited cases the a380 works well, Boeing predicted the marked better.
And we need to see a change here because if not the future for the a380 will be verry bad.
 
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:15 am

Revelation wrote:
EK is getting the Skymark frames -- ref: Emirates just bought the jumbo jets that helped bankrupt another airline.

NH is getting new-built frames.


Thank you for correcting me.
 
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:29 am

Mariner wrote:
Because the anti-A380 crowd can never resist an opportunity to dump on the aircraft.


Pointing out program reality = dumping on the A380.

Many a.netters apparently want our forum to be a "safe space" for A380 fandom. Maybe we should all respect their feelings and post trigger warnings in advance of any topic: "Trigger warning: The following contains frank discussions of the A380's failure as an Airbus product. Blankets and warm milk are available in the student center for individuals who experience these discussions as microaggressions."
 
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:39 am

On another note - MH's looking for their A330 replacement with an order of up to 25 widebodies. I'm surprised they don't just go with the A350XWB given that they're already going to get 4 to replace the A380 on the LHR route.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... -next-year
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:08 am

neutrino wrote:
zkojq wrote:
On another note, I'm rather frustrated at how the quality of comments on these forums has fallen substantially since the website stopped charging for membership.

Yeah, those pesky new members on a free- lunch. ;) (where's the "duck" emoticon when I need it?)
Seriously, there are a few new contributors of real quality, especially those who had been lurking for a long time who know what they are talking about. Otoh, quite a number came across as clueless but trying to be smart, indiscriminately sh#tting all over the place. As just one example, take a look at the now high number of those OPs that posted wrongly here in Civil Aviation when its patently obvious the subject matter belong to some other sections. The mods certainly had, and still will be having, a busy time moving them to where they should be in the first place.


I hope I'm in the good category not the bad one LOL! Honestly even though I joined after membership became free I believe free membership brought down the quality of the forums. I just try to ask for answers when I don't know and give them if I do know.

Back to the thread. I believe the A380 has a place in the world just not a big one. I also think it was just a big undertaking for an airline of that size. They should've gone with something more familiar and cost effective. The problem is hindsight is 20/20. Now that they are stuck with the aircraft they need to do whatever they can to make it work for them regardless of if it's a good aircraft or not.
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:16 am

I bet KE, CZ probably won't have too much problems with A380 - although KE seems to realize that they have put too much business class seats there. (It's 94 business-class seats on the entire upper deck) Both airlines have extensive business flying to slot-restricted airports with high volume, so they needed something larger than 77W. KE can fly only 10-weekly flights to CDG, 1 daily flight to LHR, and struggles to find slots for LAX. A380 is a niche aircraft, for slot-restricted routes with high-volume traffic, and it will serve well for many Asian airlines flying to Europe (due to tight slot restrictions in LHR/CDG, and also bilateral restrictions)
 
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:55 am

I thought Cathay Pacific was going to pick these up on the cheap and use the on the Kangaroo route, and EK blocked it. Haha... love internet rumors.
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:09 am

Matt6461 wrote:
Mariner wrote:
Because the anti-A380 crowd can never resist an opportunity to dump on the aircraft.


Pointing out program reality = dumping on the A380.

Many a.netters apparently want our forum to be a "safe space" for A380 fandom.


Or maybe it would just be nice if a topic about "airline X does something with an A380" was talking about - you know - airline X doing something with an A380...

Instead of being "I told you the A380 was a mistake" by post 3 EVERY SINGLE TIME.
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:12 am

Matt6461 wrote:
Pointing out program reality = dumping on the A380.

Many a.netters apparently want our forum to be a "safe space" for A380 fandom.


What a silly idea.

I'm a veteran of the old a.net A380 wars, back in the mid-2000's, and it just gets boring when people go on saying thy same thing over and over - how many years now? Although at least the days are gone when some a.netters swore the aircraft would never get off the ground.

So mostly I don't bother to read threads about the A380, what's the point? I do turn up from time to time just to see if anything has changed. Sadly, it hasn't. There's was a thread last week in which a poster insisted that the A380 killed Skymark - the airline which didn't die.

I'm not sure what your contribution to this thread is. It's supposed to be about what MAS is intending to do with the aircraft.

I can't think why it matters to you blokes so very much. If Airbus eventually stops production, which will happen one day, I'll just keep flying it for as long as I can. But - it is still flying and Airbus is still making it. Image

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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:49 am

At the end of the day MAS needs to think long and hard about recouping money that's currently being lost on the 380. I do believe with the consensus that 'Project Hope' could be the Hajj pilgrimage. 3 years ago PIA utilised a B743 on Hajj flights so there could be a chance they could be re-purposed for this.
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:04 am

I'm assuming MAS purchasing the A380 was nothing more really than a vanity project ? Obviously other types may have been better suited, but as has already been said, 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing. I seem to recall a similar 'vanity project' accusation being levelled at certain 747 purchasers back in the 70's. With that in mind, were MAS hoping to attract bums on seats simply using the appeal of a 'headline aircraft' ?
 
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:09 am

Many airlines have found that the A380's best economics occur when it operates flights of about 8-10 hours. Many airlines have also found out that the days of first class flying are numbered. High density configurations are becoming more and more prevalent on all types of aircraft. The A380, although initially promoted by Airbus as a cruiseliner in the air, is no exception - it needs more seats to make it a stronger economic performer.

EK is one of the first airlines to realise how it can operate the A380 profitably. MAS is also realising this - unfortunately, it can only see this kind of high density A380 working for a Haj and Umrah charter operation for the next few years.

The A380 is a little ahead of its time. More and more airports are becoming slot constrained and airlines are reacting. A320 operators are upgauging to A321. A330 operators are upgauging to A350s, Boeing 767 operators are upgauging to B777s, etc.

Sooner or later, the upgauging of aircraft will need aircraft the size of the A380. The only question is when. And will the A380 still be around when that happens....

I think what MAS are planning for their A380 fleet should work better than the current arrangement of it flying the KUL-LHR route. It should also be more profitable than selling them at a huge loss.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:56 am

Matt6461 wrote:
Mariner wrote:
Because the anti-A380 crowd can never resist an opportunity to dump on the aircraft.


Pointing out program reality = dumping on the A380.

Many a.netters apparently want our forum to be a "safe space" for A380 fandom. Maybe we should all respect their feelings and post trigger warnings in advance of any topic: "Trigger warning: The following contains frank discussions of the A380's failure as an Airbus product. Blankets and warm milk are available in the student center for individuals who experience these discussions as microaggressions."


I think we already know exactly what you think, you have said it so many times. This was a thread about MAS plans for the A380.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:00 am

JannEejit wrote:
I'm assuming MAS purchasing the A380 was nothing more really than a vanity project ? Obviously other types may have been better suited, but as has already been said, 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing. I seem to recall a similar 'vanity project' accusation being levelled at certain 747 purchasers back in the 70's. With that in mind, were MAS hoping to attract bums on seats simply using the appeal of a 'headline aircraft' ?


MAS was wasn't doing so badly till their recent disasters. It's not just the A380s that weren't paying their way when the bottom dropped out of their business. The A380 does attract bums on seats for Emirates since they charge a premium for them compared to the 777 seats.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:37 am

flee wrote:
Many airlines have also found out that the days of first class flying are numbered. High density configurations are becoming more and more prevalent on all types of aircraft. The A380, although initially promoted by Airbus as a cruiseliner in the air, is no exception - it needs more seats to make it a stronger economic performer.

EK is one of the first airlines to realise how it can operate the A380 profitably. MAS is also realising this


This is a strange thing - maybe it's Leahy's fault, I'm not sure - when I was minimally involved in the early A380 development as a student, it was ALL ABOUT mass transit, medium to long haul, low CASM. Yet EK seems to have been the ONLY airline to actually go this way instead of hitting "flagship mode" (well, actually, they kind of did both - flagship up front, bums-on-seats (in comfort) at the back).

It would have been very interesting to see Air Austral's A380s in operation and if that would have influenced the other airlines in any way...
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:23 pm

JannEejit wrote:
I'm assuming MAS purchasing the A380 was nothing more really than a vanity project ? Obviously other types may have been better suited, but as has already been said, 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing. I seem to recall a similar 'vanity project' accusation being levelled at certain 747 purchasers back in the 70's. With that in mind, were MAS hoping to attract bums on seats simply using the appeal of a 'headline aircraft' ?


It was a vanity project by a megalomaniac Prime Minister who wanted to ape Singapore because of his inferiority complex. A friend who worked for MH had told me that based on studies done by their fleet planners the 77W was the perfect 747 replacement, but the A380 was chosen because SQ has it. By the time of the first turnaround era it was too late for them to cancel the order - they posted their largest profit in 2009 on the back of penalty payments from Airbus & to return said payments would wipe out their profits.

As a matter of fact, I feel that even their 15 747 purchase in the late 1990s was a vanity project. The 777 order was fine since it was a replacement for the DC-10 & the A330 ordered by the previous management didn't have the 777s range, but 15 747 doesn't make sense especially back then when travelling overseas isn't really something that most Malaysians do. And when the 1998 Asian Financial Crisis, I just don't understand why they didn't cancel said order when the enormity of the economic crisis hits home.

It's a pity because MH had been a profitable enterprise before that PM started his privatization agenda and sold a part of the company to one of his cronies which ran the airline to the ground.
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Revelation
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:50 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
MAS was wasn't doing so badly till their recent disasters. It's not just the A380s that weren't paying their way when the bottom dropped out of their business. The A380 does attract bums on seats for Emirates since they charge a premium for them compared to the 777 seats.


That's a well known issue. It's called capacity risk. The A380 might pay its way when things are going well, but when they are not, it's a financial bloodbath.

mariner wrote:
There's was a thread last week in which a poster insisted that the A380 killed Skymark - the airline which didn't die.


Strange to read you making this statement since you yourself admitted the Skymark corporation that bought the A380 is dead and its investors largely wiped out, and has been replaced by another one with its name and branding.

Since you're so optimistic about the A380, when do you think the new Skymark will be buying replacement A380s? After all, what matters the most is that you get to fly on as many A380s as possible, not that the operator makes any money flying A380s.

flee wrote:
I think what MAS are planning for their A380 fleet should work better than the current arrangement of it flying the KUL-LHR route. It should also be more profitable than selling them at a huge loss.


I'm not optimistic. If this new plan does work out, how long will it be before other airlines enter the market and squash yields? Doesn't it bother you that no other major airline has "discovered" this niche? Doesn't it bother you that the only ones participating in this niche are minor players who don't have the burden of making payments on relatively new A380s?

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
It was a vanity project by a megalomaniac Prime Minister who wanted to ape Singapore because of his inferiority complex. A friend who worked for MH had told me that based on studies done by their fleet planners the 77W was the perfect 747 replacement, but the A380 was chosen because SQ has it. By the time of the first turnaround era it was too late for them to cancel the order - they posted their largest profit in 2009 on the back of penalty payments from Airbus & to return said payments would wipe out their profits.

As a matter of fact, I feel that even their 15 747 purchase in the late 1990s was a vanity project. The 777 order was fine since it was a replacement for the DC-10 & the A330 ordered by the previous management didn't have the 777s range, but 15 747 doesn't make sense especially back then when travelling overseas isn't really something that most Malaysians do. And when the 1998 Asian Financial Crisis, I just don't understand why they didn't cancel said order when the enormity of the economic crisis hits home.

It's a pity because MH had been a profitable enterprise before that PM started his privatization agenda and sold a part of the company to one of his cronies which ran the airline to the ground.


Interesting post. I also wondered about the size of their fleet relative to their needs. Other posts have said the only international route they have that makes money is LHR. It seems to me they'd be better off with a 789/7810 or A350/A330 combination. However, since they don't have bankruptcy available to them (from what I've been told) they will need to have the A380 millstone around their necks for as long as they can bear it.
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Strato2
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:36 pm

Revelation wrote:
RickNRoll wrote:
MAS was wasn't doing so badly till their recent disasters. It's not just the A380s that weren't paying their way when the bottom dropped out of their business. The A380 does attract bums on seats for Emirates since they charge a premium for them compared to the 777 seats.


That's a well known issue. It's called capacity risk. The A380 might pay its way when things are going well, but when they are not, it's a financial bloodbath.


Hyperbole is never far away when Amerikan anti-A380 crowd takes another dump.
 
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flee
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:48 pm

Revelation wrote:
[
flee wrote:
I think what MAS are planning for their A380 fleet should work better than the current arrangement of it flying the KUL-LHR route. It should also be more profitable than selling them at a huge loss.


I'm not optimistic. If this new plan does work out, how long will it be before other airlines enter the market and squash yields? Doesn't it bother you that no other major airline has "discovered" this niche? Doesn't it bother you that the only ones participating in this niche are minor players who don't have the burden of making payments on relatively new A380s?

I am not surprised at your pessimism. Time will tell ...
 
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Revelation
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:51 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
RickNRoll wrote:
MAS was wasn't doing so badly till their recent disasters. It's not just the A380s that weren't paying their way when the bottom dropped out of their business. The A380 does attract bums on seats for Emirates since they charge a premium for them compared to the 777 seats.


That's a well known issue. It's called capacity risk. The A380 might pay its way when things are going well, but when they are not, it's a financial bloodbath.


Hyperbole is never far away when Amerikan anti-A380 crowd takes another dump.


Feel free to add your comments about how MAS is not suffering capacity risk right now. Otherwise, you're just ranting.
The gun is NOT a precious symbol of freedom
It is a deadly cancer on American society
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That is impervious to evidence
 
LondonCity
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:24 pm

neutrino - Is the price in Malaysian $ or US $ ? If this was a local ad (for the Malaysian market) then one would expect the price to be displayed in local currency.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:05 pm

LondonCity wrote:
neutrino - Is the price in Malaysian $ or US $ ? If this was a local ad (for the Malaysian market) then one would expect the price to be displayed in local currency.


No dollars in Malaysia, it's ringgit (MYR).

If you'e referring to this quote:

Still, the displayed amount of SGD841 or USD619, SIN-LHR-SIN, in the website is really (but not ridiculously) low too.


Then he specifically stated 841 SINGAPORE dollars or 619 US dollars...

(By the way, I booked a similar price (converted to GBP) London to KL return in a couple of months - it's the real deal.)
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Stitch
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Re: MAS changes A380 plans, again

Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:39 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
I'm assuming MAS purchasing the A380 was nothing more really than a vanity project?


It was a vanity project by a megalomaniac Prime Minister who wanted to ape Singapore because of his inferiority complex...As a matter of fact, I feel that even their 15 747 purchase in the late 1990s was a vanity project.


Sounds logical. MH was one of the original launch customers for the 747-500 and 747-600, as well, so sounds like they went with what was "biggest" regardless of suitability to task.

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