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stl07 wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

I'm happy for BNA but ultimately I find the announcement depressing. So many wins from smaller metro areas on the international front yet Cleveland seems to be without hope. I'm tired of driving to PIT or DTW for decent fares or nonstop service. I'm tired of purchasing a two ticket option to Europe from CLE to save money. . . . so many wonderful things going on in NE Ohio, yet the airport, both its aesthetic and its service--- bush league.

NOOOO. Cleveland is not without hope. Cleveland is smart. I can see why everyone on this forum is upset, but really, CLE (and STL, Sacramento) are the smarter ones, unlike these much smaller cities like BNA and NOLA who pump multi millions of dollars into the airlines checkbooks for a flight (PIT too). Buying out a route is not sustainable, nor justifiable when many people in these cities are under poverty line and the infrastructure needs help.

PIT-CDG on DL has been 100% self sustaining for 7 years with no additional tax payer incentives provided.

pgh234 wrote:

stl07 wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

I'm happy for BNA but ultimately I find the announcement depressing. So many wins from smaller metro areas on the international front yet Cleveland seems to be without hope. I'm tired of driving to PIT or DTW for decent fares or nonstop service. I'm tired of purchasing a two ticket option to Europe from CLE to save money. . . . so many wonderful things going on in NE Ohio, yet the airport, both its aesthetic and its service--- bush league.

NOOOO. Cleveland is not without hope. Cleveland is smart. I can see why everyone on this forum is upset, but really, CLE (and STL, Sacramento) are the smarter ones, unlike these much smaller cities like BNA and NOLA who pump multi millions of dollars into the airlines checkbooks for a flight (PIT too). Buying out a route is not sustainable, nor justifiable when many people in these cities are under poverty line and the infrastructure needs help.

PIT-CDG on DL has been 100% self sustaining for 7 years with no additional tax payer incentives provided.

Yeah but look at WOW air (plus that's seasonal and on a DL 757).

pgh234 wrote:

stl07 wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

I'm happy for BNA but ultimately I find the announcement depressing. So many wins from smaller metro areas on the international front yet Cleveland seems to be without hope. I'm tired of driving to PIT or DTW for decent fares or nonstop service. I'm tired of purchasing a two ticket option to Europe from CLE to save money. . . . so many wonderful things going on in NE Ohio, yet the airport, both its aesthetic and its service--- bush league.

NOOOO. Cleveland is not without hope. Cleveland is smart. I can see why everyone on this forum is upset, but really, CLE (and STL, Sacramento) are the smarter ones, unlike these much smaller cities like BNA and NOLA who pump multi millions of dollars into the airlines checkbooks for a flight (PIT too). Buying out a route is not sustainable, nor justifiable when many people in these cities are under poverty line and the infrastructure needs help.

PIT-CDG on DL has been 100% self sustaining for 7 years with no additional tax payer incentives provided.

Glad to hear that and shows medium sized cities can make it work. It calls to mind over the years reading claims by a.netters that sometimes it takes a while for a route to become profitable. But of course, that was only in reference to our most prestigious cities that an airline must serve with heavy competition. I guess it's all right for an airline to absorb those kind of teething costs if true. So it seems medium or smaller sized and non hub cities...it's make it or loose it.

greenair727 wrote:

1. The UA hub closure was not a 'sudden loss'.

The decision was foreseeable, but the implementation was sudden: announcement in February, implementation began in March, hub and employees gone by June.

I won't agrue your other points, they are reasonable.

As of this morning, AA has moved into their new gates on C.

swacle wrote:

As of this morning, AA has moved into their new gates on C.

Wow, that was quick...haha. I'll have to scope it out next week. The first few were good looking with improved seating and lighting.

fun2fly wrote:

swacle wrote:

As of this morning, AA has moved into their new gates on C.

Wow, that was quick...haha. I'll have to scope it out next week. The first few were good looking with improved seating and lighting.

Only took 3 months! lol.

^ And promptly, CLE updated their terminal map which now shows AA in C. The flight status screen shows they are still using some of the common-use C gates, however. Maybe it will take a schedule adjustment to fit everything into 5 gates - or maybe using a common gate a couple of times a day is cheaper than renting it full time.

[quote="masseybrown"]^ And promptly, CLE updated their terminal map which now shows AA in C. The flight status screen shows they are still using some of the common-use C gates, however. Maybe it will take a schedule adjustment to fit everything into 5 gates - or maybe using a common gate a couple of times a day is cheaper than renting it full time.[/quote

How many of Concourse A's 13 gates are Frontier, Spirit and Allegiant + odd ball carriers actually using?

fun2fly wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

^ And promptly, CLE updated their terminal map which now shows AA in C. The flight status screen shows they are still using some of the common-use C gates, however. Maybe it will take a schedule adjustment to fit everything into 5 gates - or maybe using a common gate a couple of times a day is cheaper than renting it full time.[/quote

How many of Concourse A's 13 gates are Frontier, Spirit and Allegiant + odd ball carriers actually using?

At peak times In have seen 2 NK, 2 G4, and 4 F9 at gates at the same time.

On the subject of international route development, CLE has an RFQ on the street for marketing suppport that includes a couple of tasks that indicate to me they anticipate cooperative marketing campaigns with airlines starting new routes.

"F. Assist in the development of marketing programs for the department and in support of new service announcements for airlines that receive marketing incentives ..."

"G. The services provided may be utilized in, but not limited to, the production of brochures and other promotional literature in multiple languages ... "

You can read the whole thing on the airport website, but the bolded portions say to me that CLE anticipates promoting and providing a promotional subsidy for new international routes.

^Interesting. I hope F & G, above, are new items in the RFP and/or that they signify something. This RFP/contract is one the city always has running, but I don't know if the 'air service incentive' language is new or just 'boilerplate' from last time. One of the questions in Addendum #4 is: "It was mentioned in the pre-proposal conference that previous years spends have been between $500,000 and $1.8M. Can you elaborate on what you’d anticipate for the coming year’s budget?".... so this is a regular - standing contracting and not necessarily tied to imminent new service. That said, who's in the incumbent? If attracting/selling the city for int'l air services (to airlines) was part of their purview, they've clearly failed as well, though it looks like the work is retainer-based and by assignment, so if CLE didn't give them any specific tasks for this, its not really the company's fault....

DoT put some nice numbers out today. May domestic boardings at CLE were 385.1K, the best number for the month since 2009. O&D at BKL was 1,836, a 71% load factor, Ultimate's best month since they started flying.

^Good to hear. Any updates on BKL service? Ultimate quietly dropped MMU (which I was not surprised about, being 3x/week and requiring overnights on both ends, and being so far from Manhattan), but any news on Chicago? Silver? Porter?

greenair727 wrote:

^Good to hear. Any updates on BKL service? Ultimate quietly dropped MMU (which I was not surprised about, being 3x/week and requiring overnights on both ends, and being so far from Manhattan), but any news on Chicago? Silver? Porter?

I suspect Ultimate is having trouble acquiring aircraft. With the prospect of cheap fuel for a good while, the price of used E135s had firmed up - maybe beyond what UE wants to pay..

fun2fly wrote:

How many of Concourse A's 13 gates are Frontier, Spirit and Allegiant + odd ball carriers actually using?

A currently has only 12 gates (A4 was permanently closed when NK took A2 & A6; and there was never an A13).

I didn't even know CGF was closed for a bit...

"Cuyahoga County Airport To Reopen after Runway Project
August 1, 2017, 12:05 PM

Cleveland Cuyahoga County Airport will reopen its sole Runway 6/24 on Thursday after a more than two-month reconstruction project of the 5,100-foot surface. According to the county authority, the $9 million job—paid for by FAA grants (90 percent), the Ohio DoT and the county—involved milling and resurfacing the runway, in addition to adding a new taxiway connector. Due to the need for the surface to cure completely, the runway will be closed again on August 19 and 20 to install grooves in its surface...."

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ay-project

^^ why was A4 permanently closed?

greenair727 wrote:

I didn't even know CGF was closed for a bit...

"Cuyahoga County Airport To Reopen after Runway Project
August 1, 2017, 12:05 PM

Cleveland Cuyahoga County Airport will reopen its sole Runway 6/24 on Thursday after a more than two-month reconstruction project of the 5,100-foot surface. According to the county authority, the $9 million job—paid for by FAA grants (90 percent), the Ohio DoT and the county—involved milling and resurfacing the runway, in addition to adding a new taxiway connector. Due to the need for the surface to cure completely, the runway will be closed again on August 19 and 20 to install grooves in its surface...."

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ay-project

It's been a weird deal. The opened it for a few hours the other day, even though the project was not done. Several airplane owners moved their private planes to Lake County for two months.

fun2fly wrote:

It's been a weird deal. The opened it for a few hours the other day, even though the project was not done. Several airplane owners moved their private planes to Lake County for two months.

A couple of hours to let Nextant deliver some planes? I wish the runway extension had been approved. Current lengths limit business; the longer length wouldn't have increased traffic that much.

greenair727 wrote:

^^ why was A4 permanently closed?

I don't think NK could park 3 A320-sized planes in that tight space that was originally built for Allegheny's BAC 1-11's and DC-9's (and the occasional Allegheny Commuter Heron). So they removed the A4 jetway and blocked the door.

Looking at the May carrier statistics for CLE, there appeared to be growth across most all airlines. Even mainline United was up over the prior May. May 2017 was Frontier's busiest month ever at CLE.

May 2017 mainline domestic pax (increase from May 2016)

WN 120,147 (10.6%)
F9 113,204 (22.6%)
UA 106,633 (16.3%)

lakeeffect wrote:

Looking at the May carrier statistics for CLE, there appeared to be growth across most all airlines. Even mainline United was up over the prior May. May 2017 was Frontier's busiest month ever at CLE.

May 2017 mainline domestic pax (increase from May 2016)

WN 120,147 (10.6%)
F9 113,204 (22.6%)
UA 106,633 (16.3%)

Do UA's figures include only mainline or also Express?

CLEguy wrote:

lakeeffect wrote:

Looking at the May carrier statistics for CLE, there appeared to be growth across most all airlines. Even mainline United was up over the prior May. May 2017 was Frontier's busiest month ever at CLE.

May 2017 mainline domestic pax (increase from May 2016)

WN 120,147 (10.6%)
F9 113,204 (22.6%)
UA 106,633 (16.3%)

Do UA's figures include only mainline or also Express?

Sorry...I now see this includes mainline only.

One of the interesting differences between CLE and PIT used to be the fact that PIT had much more traffic to BOS while CLE had much more to LAX.

For example using Q4 in 2015 CLE-BOS was 563 pax/day, while PIT-BOS was 1064; CLE-LAX was 497 while PIT-LAX was 309. Along came 2016 and CLE-BOS was 740, while PIT-BOS was 786; and CLE-LAX was 729, while PIT-LAX was 617. The long standing differences have almost disappeared in one single year

CLE's absolute differences from year to year can mostly be explained (I think) by the flight reduction at CAK plus ULCC fare stimulation. The change in the relative differences with PIT I don't get at all. Any ideas?

masseybrown wrote:

One of the interesting differences between CLE and PIT used to be the fact that PIT had much more traffic to BOS while CLE had much more to LAX.

For example using Q4 in 2015 CLE-BOS was 563 pax/day, while PIT-BOS was 1064; CLE-LAX was 497 while PIT-LAX was 309. Along came 2016 and CLE-BOS was 740, while PIT-BOS was 786; and CLE-LAX was 729, while PIT-LAX was 617. The long standing differences have almost disappeared in one single year

CLE's absolute differences from year to year can mostly be explained (I think) by the flight reduction at CAK plus ULCC fare stimulation. The change in the relative differences with PIT I don't get at all. Any ideas?

As far as PIT-LAX, IIRC in 2015 it was only AA operating the route. Jump to 2016 and you have AA and WN on the route. Today AA is replaced by NK.
PIT-BOS in the 4th quarter of 2016 had significant reductions by AA between the holidays. This year should see some good growth on the route with B6 stepping up to 5x daily (6x daily next year), DL adding 2x daily and AA still having a minimal presence. I believe it will be 11 flights in total on peak days next year.

So we can see how the markets are stimulated by the increase in nonstop options and low fares, and vice versa.

^flyPIT, I appreciate your insight.

Nice news from Susan Glaser about Frontier connecting flights. Now we get to speculate on what the additional feeder flights might be. Looking at their map and not expecting new destinations, maybe PVD, GRR, MSN? They used to feed CO@CLE a bunch of passengers.

masseybrown wrote:

^flyPIT, I appreciate your insight.

Nice news from Susan Glaser about Frontier connecting flights. Now we get to speculate on what the additional feeder flights might be. Looking at their map and not expecting new destinations, maybe PVD, GRR, MSN? They used to feed CO@CLE a bunch of passengers.

Here's the story you reference: http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.s ... art_c.html

It's too bad Frontier does not have a int'l code share partner!

Robert1010 wrote:

It's too bad Frontier does not have a int'l code share partner!

They could always do the flying themselves.

^Aren't they affiliated somehow with Wizz?

I wouldn't expect much in the way of connecting traffic from Frontier. It'll probably be just incidental connections based on aircraft routing. For example, currently it's the same plane that flies MCO-CLE that then goes on to PDX. F9 can sell connections on these flights because if the MCO flight is delayed they will still make their connection to PDX as it's the same plane.

I also see F9 is selling TPA-CLE-PHX itineraries. But good luck getting many to purchase that itinerary, especially in winter. Since most of the F9 CLE winter routes are to the south it means logical connections are gone. I think the true potential for connecting traffic would be next spring and summer. If F9 keeps the same routes they had this year and throws in another 2 or 3 the possible connecting itineries really grows.

Its good to see cleveland getting back on track I hope frontier makes a hub out of cle.

greenair727 wrote:

^Aren't they affiliated somehow with Wizz?

Indigo Partners owns both of them. CLE ought to try talking F9 into flying CLE-DUB and hooking up with Ryan Air.

lakeeffect wrote:

I wouldn't expect much in the way of connecting traffic from Frontier. It'll probably be just incidental connections based on aircraft routing.

That was my first thought, but then S. Glaser teased about "several new destinations" being added soon at CLE.

Crazy that CGF gets more than CLE while BKL gets nothing.....


"...Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is set to award $162.4 million in airport infrastructure grants through the Airport Improvement Program (AIP). The grants will affect 72 airports in 31 states [including:]...

Cleveland-Hopkins International Airport in Cleveland, OH, $7.3 million – funds will be used to purchase snow removal equipment.

Cuyahoga County Airport in Cleveland, OH, $11.3 million – grant funds will be used to repair and extend Runway 06/24...."

http://www.equipmentworld.com/usdot-faa ... re-grants/

greenair727 wrote:

Cuyahoga County Airport in Cleveland, OH, $11.3 million – grant funds will be used to repair and extend Runway 06/24...."

Great! The extension will help Nextant take on larger rebuilds.

Meanwhile CLE reported the best July since 2001, 12% better thn last year, which was impacted by RNC traffic. 892K pax, up over 100K from 2016.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ss ... river_home

Edit: 5,231K pax for the year through July

Additional service still to be announced this year by Frontier and Southwest, says Kennedy.

Better report from the airport itself: http://www.clevelandairport.com/clevela ... -july-2017

Interesting F9 is talking about connections, apparently F9 is also planning on connecting passengers through Cincinnati. I will be interested to see if there is a CLE/CVG service announcement in the Fall.

masseybrown wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

Cuyahoga County Airport in Cleveland, OH, $11.3 million – grant funds will be used to repair and extend Runway 06/24...."

Great! The extension will help Nextant take on larger rebuilds.

Meanwhile CLE reported the best July since 2001, 12% better thn last year, which was impacted by RNC traffic. 892K pax, up over 100K from 2016.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ss ... river_home

Edit: 5,231K pax for the year through July

Additional service still to be announced this year by Frontier and Southwest, says Kennedy.

Better report from the airport itself: http://www.clevelandairport.com/clevela ... -july-2017

At this rate CLE will probably eclipse 9 million passengers for 2017. An increase of over 100,000 passengers for July is pretty substantial considering last July was the RNC. I think part of this growth is Southwest consolidating CAK operations at CLE in June.

It's very interesting to hear the director say that Frontier and Southwest announcements are yet to come. Southwest has another schedule extension in less than 2 weeks for late spring travel. I wonder if we might see another curve ball from WN or if it'll be something like DAL or HOU? Interestingly enough, AUS has been Allegiant's best performing route from CLE so perhaps WN is taking note of that as well?

I wouldn't be surprised if the Frontier announcement comes later in the fall when they unveil their spring/summer 2018 plans and new routes. With AA now moved to the C concourse, Frontier could easily expand their footprint on the A concourse if needed. I could see CLE-PVD working out as a new O&D destination and for connections.

"We look to continue to grow with additional service still to be announced from Frontier and Southwest starting in the fall."

This wording is confusing. I would assume they mean the announcements are in starting in the fall but it reads like the routes would start in fall. That doesn't make sense to me though

lakeeffect wrote:

At this rate CLE will probably eclipse 9 million passengers for 2017.

The last time CLE had 9 million at least a third of it came from connecting passengers; this time it's almost pure O&D. I really like what that says about the city's economy.

Jshank83 wrote:

"We look to continue to grow with additional service still to be announced from Frontier and Southwest starting in the fall."

This wording is confusing. I would assume they mean the announcements are in starting in the fall but it reads like the routes would start in fall. That doesn't make sense to me though

F9 expansion, not that great news, but helps pay down debt.

WN news is very good as they are reliable, routes stick, financially stable, etc.

No news of an international expansion is disappointing which means we need to queue the CLE fight song: "Wait till next year"

masseybrown wrote:

lakeeffect wrote:

I wouldn't expect much in the way of connecting traffic from Frontier. It'll probably be just incidental connections based on aircraft routing.

That was my first thought, but then S. Glaser teased about "several new destinations" being added soon at CLE.

The hint of new destinations is good, but I don't expect hardly much in the connecting dept. I just checked the F9 website and the only CLE-SFO option, leaving 10/6/17 leaves CLE at 9:30am arrives DEN at 10:49am and after an 11 hour connection time leaves DEN at 9:47pm.

I somehow missed this announcement last month. CLE earns best customer service scores in a decade:

http://clevelandairport.com/cle-earns-b ... res-decade

lakeeffect wrote:

Southwest has another schedule extension in less than 2 weeks for late spring travel. I wonder if we might see another curve ball from WN or if it'll be something like DAL or HOU? Interestingly enough, AUS has been Allegiant's best performing route from CLE so perhaps WN is taking note of that as well?

Another poster reported that UA just announced reduced fares on CLE-MCI. So there's a clue. I had been hoping for WN to add a northeastern point, which would indicate further increases were planned. MCI is one of WN's (non)hubs and doesn't necessarily indicate future plans for CLE.

masseybrown wrote:

lakeeffect wrote:

Southwest has another schedule extension in less than 2 weeks for late spring travel. I wonder if we might see another curve ball from WN or if it'll be something like DAL or HOU? Interestingly enough, AUS has been Allegiant's best performing route from CLE so perhaps WN is taking note of that as well?

Another poster reported that UA just announced reduced fares on CLE-MCI. So there's a clue. I had been hoping for WN to add a northeastern point, which would indicate further increases were planned. MCI is one of WN's (non)hubs and doesn't necessarily indicate future plans for CLE.

Officially we don't know what's going on with MCI but adding service to any city from CLE, hub or non-hub, is a big improvement over how the station has been treated over the last decade. Clearly they see some potential recently in CLE that wasn't there before, especially since "merging" CLE/CAK ops. I think they honestly tried to make CAK work but now with WN's NE Ohio ops consolidated at Hopkins they're seeing that strategy might have been a mistake. Spirit seems to be learning the same lesson too. Without the UA hub, there's really no sense operating large ops out of both airports.

lakeeffect wrote:

Interestingly enough, AUS has been Allegiant's best performing route from CLE so perhaps WN is taking note of that as well?

It's possible; WN does have AUS-EWR while not serving HOU-EWR or DAL-EWR, and thus AUS gets some Texas connections.

lakeeffect wrote:

F9 can sell connections on these flights because if the MCO flight is delayed they will still make their connection to PDX as it's the same plane.

It happened to me on NK: flight was MYR-PIT-DFW. MYR-PIT was delayed and arrived PIT later than schedule. Unfortunately, even though it was same plane, PIT-DFW was cancelled because of exceeding flight crew hours, because of the original delays. I also did PHL-DFW a month or ago on NK, and some pax were connecting to DEN, but arrived in DFW to find out the DFW-DEN segment was cancelled, although it was not same plane. I don't know about F9, but NK did cover the pax hotel expense and just put the pax on the flight the next day.

If F9 wants to be a serious contender in Cleveland, the routes have to be 2-3x daily (but at the very least 2x/day) and would be wise to serve routes that are currently not-served by anyone else since the UA de-hubbing: ALB, MCI, PVD.....the scenario of missing a connection (or crew timing out) and waiting 24-72 hrs for the connecting flight is just horrendous at best....

greenair727 wrote:

If F9 wants to be a serious contender in Cleveland, the routes have to be 2-3x daily (but at the very least 2x/day) and would be wise to serve routes that are currently not-served by anyone else since the UA de-hubbing: ALB, MCI, PVD.....the scenario of missing a connection (or crew timing out) and waiting 24-72 hrs for the connecting flight is just horrendous at best....

F9 is not going to go 2-3x daily nor do they need to. They are not establishing a full service connecting hub in CLE. They are just going to allow connections on routes that are largely supported by O&D so that more passengers have more options for getting to their final destination. By doing this passengers will no longer be required to go through DEN for most connections.

Some interesting comments by CLE management to marketing consultant bidders:

- "The Department focuses [its advertising budget] on promoting any new added service markets"
- Budget: $1 million for cooperative promotion ads with airlines and up to $300K for other uses, for the contract beginning February 2018.
- Current traffic is 52% leisure and 93% O&D.
- The airport's catchment considered to be Erie, PA west to Pt. Clinton and south to Mansfield (i.e. bigger than the 3.5 million person Cleveland CSA).
- Transatlantic service is a stated goal, but perhaps not an immediate 2018 one. (My interpretation.)
- 7 airlines have added 59 routes since 2014 (as of June, 2016)

http://www.clevelandairport.com/sites/d ... um%204.pdf