masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:50 am

A little anger management training for Spirit employees, I guess.
http://www.cleveland19.com/story/368319 ... police-say
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:48 pm

lakeeffect wrote:
I didn’t realize how few flights CLE had to MCO compared to other airports in the region. For example, next March during spring break (ignoring Saturday peak day flights), CLE has just 3 daily flights to MCO, one each on United, Frontier, and Spirit.


Maybe it's because there are six airlines in the market. Everybody wants to play, but nobody want to fight for a bigger share. Also WN offers a couple of one-stop, no-change flights; they do amazingly well with one-stop offerings.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:47 pm

CLE numbers for October were 816.5K pax up from 741.3K the year before. For the year through October, the airport says 7,678K up 557K from 2016; CLE projects over 9 million for the full year, exceeding UA's last full hub year 2013.

http://www.clevelandairport.com/clevela ... uring-2017
 
SgtBarone
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:23 pm

masseybrown wrote:
CLE numbers for October were 816.5K pax up from 741.3K the year before. For the year through October, the airport says 7,678K up 557K from 2016; CLE projects over 9 million for the full year, exceeding UA's last full hub year 2013.

http://www.clevelandairport.com/clevela ... uring-2017


Fantastic news!
AGP BCN BNA CLE CLT DEN FLG FRA IAD LAX MAD MCI MDW MUC PHX RSW SJU TPA
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:53 pm

masseybrown wrote:
CLE numbers for October were 816.5K pax up from 741.3K the year before. For the year through October, the airport says 7,678K up 557K from 2016; CLE projects over 9 million for the full year, exceeding UA's last full hub year 2013.

http://www.clevelandairport.com/clevela ... uring-2017


Any idea where that will put the debt level? I'd guess they'd be able to make a good size dent in that in 2017.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:19 pm

fun2fly wrote:
Any idea where that will put the debt level? I'd guess they'd be able to make a good size dent in that in 2017.


Their capital expenses were down in 2017; without straining, they ought to be able to get the debt down to $650-675 million. We will know next July, unless Mr. Kennedy (who seems to be chattier than other City Hall folks) releases the report early
Last edited by masseybrown on Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
lakeeffect
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:26 pm

masseybrown wrote:
CLE numbers for October were 816.5K pax up from 741.3K the year before. For the year through October, the airport says 7,678K up 557K from 2016; CLE projects over 9 million for the full year, exceeding UA's last full hub year 2013.

http://www.clevelandairport.com/clevela ... uring-2017


10% YoY growth for the month of October is much higher than I would have predicted. Load factors must have been pretty good as I don’t believe there was too significant of a capacity increase over Oct 2016.

It’s kind of remarkable how CLE is on track to have higher passenger totals than most of the final years of the United hub, while the entirety of Concourse D sits vacant. It really shows how small that United hub was. CLE, even in its peak years a decade ago, was always a fraction of the size of the hubs at PIT, CVG, STL, and in many years smaller than MEM.
 
phluser
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:44 pm

masseybrown wrote:
lakeeffect wrote:
I didn’t realize how few flights CLE had to MCO compared to other airports in the region. For example, next March during spring break (ignoring Saturday peak day flights), CLE has just 3 daily flights to MCO, one each on United, Frontier, and Spirit.


Maybe it's because there are six airlines in the market. Everybody wants to play, but nobody want to fight for a bigger share. Also WN offers a couple of one-stop, no-change flights; they do amazingly well with one-stop offerings.


For most days, WN doesn't offer any no-change flights on CLE MCO. I see a few on MCO CLE on some days, but it's inconsistent.

WN does well with one-stop offerings though, as it often discounts it in markets where they lack a nonstop. Plus it has no change fees and generous baggage allowance. e.g. It was typical for CLE to DAL last minute fares to be cheap over the summer while CMH to DAL was high fare. It's like CMH benefited with a nonstop but CLE benefited with lower WN fares w/o a nonstop, but in CLE, NK was competing and WN had reason to discount one stops.
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:28 pm

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.s ... r_home_pop
Really nice discussion over on cleveland.com debating merits for new airport. To me it's a no brainer needed. Whether the money exists, who the heck knows. But how can Kansas City and Pittsburgh and IND pull it off. PIT's airport is only 25 years old, and to me not nearly as outdated as CLE airport, yet the civic leaders have vision that something new is needed.
 
Robert1010
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:39 pm

ncflyer wrote:
http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2017/11/build_a_new_cleveland_hopkins.html#incart_river_home_pop
Really nice discussion over on cleveland.com debating merits for new airport. To me it's a no brainer needed. Whether the money exists, who the heck knows. But how can Kansas City and Pittsburgh and IND pull it off. PIT's airport is only 25 years old, and to me not nearly as outdated as CLE airport, yet the civic leaders have vision that something new is needed.

Amen! Couldn’t agree more, but is it civic leaders visioning? Or CLE dot com just creating a topic?
 
Robert1010
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:41 pm

There is people on the cle dot com commenting that because the airport is convenient for them and the fact that they do not have a hub anymore, that there is no need for a new airport ! Think they are totally wrong
 
compensateme
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:03 pm

ncflyer wrote:
http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2017/11/build_a_new_cleveland_hopkins.html#incart_river_home_pop
Really nice discussion over on cleveland.com debating merits for new airport. To me it's a no brainer needed. Whether the money exists, who the heck knows. But how can Kansas City and Pittsburgh and IND pull it off. PIT's airport is only 25 years old, and to me not nearly as outdated as CLE airport, yet the civic leaders have vision that something new is needed.


CLE has significantly more debt and higher operating costs than its peers. It'd be incredibility difficult to make a case for a new airport, short of asking taxpayers to foot most of the bill.

You might need a new car, but if you still owe thousands on your old one and your source of income is your weekly paycheck from you $12-an-hour job at Walmart, it ain't happening.
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:28 pm

ncflyer wrote:
http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2017/11/build_a_new_cleveland_hopkins.html#incart_river_home_pop
Whether the money exists, who the heck knows. But how can Kansas City and Pittsburgh and IND pull it off.


True, PIT and MCI have recently announced plans for new terminals. PIT's debt at the end of 2016 = $178 million MCI's debt = $209 million. CLE's = $724 million. Yes, a new terminal would be nice, but CLE simply cannot afford additional debt of a billion or more at this time. Maybe after five more years of paying off old debt CLE can consider major expenditures.

IND debt was about $550 when they began building, but they have extra revenues of about $50 million a year from Fedex to support their $1.5 billion debt when construction was complete. In about 7 years they have paid their debt down to $952 million.

What could change this? The NEO region desperately needs to show population growth. Current Fed and state projections say there will be small but continuing losses through 2040. Yes the average wage and GDP in the region is growing; but we need more people - even small numbers. The psychological impact is huge, plus it would change all the estimates. It's doable - it wouldn't take much - the trends are in the right direction; but it hasn't happened yet. I'm optimistic it will. The 2020 census will still probably show a loss over 2010, but I bet it will show a gain over 2018.
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:34 pm

Robert1010 wrote:
There is people on the cle dot com commenting that because the airport is convenient for them and the fact that they do not have a hub anymore, that there is no need for a new airport ! Think they are totally wrong


Right, that is where the provincialism of this town is infuriating, too many people grew up here and have lived no where else to see what is out there in the US and abroad. The old art museum was perfectly adequate in fact it was pretty damn fantastic, but the new one is absolutely magnificent. Did we need to spend $300MM? Is there a return on that investment? So many Clevelanders would have said no, and probably not. But wow was it ever worth it.

I believe the PD travel reporter sought story ideas and got back a lot of responses on the state of the airport as something people wantd to know more about. She says she plans to research more on the debt situation at the airport-- why and if/when the airport will have capacity to take on more. This is what I need to learn more about, I just really don't understand how such an old facility can be so much in debt.
 
compensateme
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:16 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Right, that is where the provincialism of this town is infuriating, too many people grew up here and have lived no where else to see what is out there in the US and abroad. The old art museum was perfectly adequate in fact it was pretty damn fantastic, but the new one is absolutely magnificent. Did we need to spend $300MM? Is there a return on that investment? So many Clevelanders would have said no, and probably not. But wow was it ever worth it.

I believe the PD travel reporter sought story ideas and got back a lot of responses on the state of the airport as something people wantd to know more about. She says she plans to research more on the debt situation at the airport-- why and if/when the airport will have capacity to take on more. This is what I need to learn more about, I just really don't understand how such an old facility can be so much in debt.


Of the ~$725M debt, roughly $500M is related to construction of the second runway and preparation of a third runway (which has been shelved indefinitely), ~$100M towards Concourse D and the remainder towards various capital improvement projects (e.g. they spent nearly $70M a few years ago acquiring various private parking lots). CLE occupies a very small footprint -- about 1/6th the size of PIT and 1/3rd the size of DTW, for comparison -- and the airport had to spend a significant amount of cash on land acquisition to make the second and third runways possible. Of course, this was done in the late 1990s/early 2000s, so the cost was a lot more than it would've been today.

CLE doesn't have the auxiliary revenue sources its peers do -- PIT leases unused land & collects rent + royalties from drilling, IND has FedEx,etc. It also collects the maximum PFC, and assesses slightly higher fees than its peers. Put simply, it's not in position to borrow funds necessary to build a new terminal complex without having significant negative consequences on its constituents. One idea to raise cash would be to close Burke and sell the property, but many in the community would argue the funds could be put to better use. Reality is, unless the project is self-sustaining, Cleveland has greater needs than a state-of-the-art airport.
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
michman
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:25 pm

ncflyer wrote:
http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2017/11/build_a_new_cleveland_hopkins.html#incart_river_home_pop
Really nice discussion over on cleveland.com debating merits for new airport. To me it's a no brainer needed. Whether the money exists, who the heck knows. But how can Kansas City and Pittsburgh and IND pull it off. PIT's airport is only 25 years old, and to me not nearly as outdated as CLE airport, yet the civic leaders have vision that something new is needed.


PIT is getting a new landside terminal -- airside is not being replaced. It's an extensive project, but not really the same as IND and MCI projects.
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:34 pm

Thank you compensateme, very informative.

Hindsight being 20/20 it sure seems like money spent on the runway would have been better spent on a better pax facilities? I remember when that runway project was attached to people dreaming about flights to Asia. . . boy does that seem comical now.
 
compensateme
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:08 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Thank you compensateme, very informative.

Hindsight being 20/20 it sure seems like money spent on the runway would have been better spent on a better pax facilities? I remember when that runway project was attached to people dreaming about flights to Asia. . . boy does that seem comical now.


CLE acted in its best interests, you can't fault it for that. In the 1990s, Midwestern gateways such as CLE, CVG, DTW and PIT (yes, I realize it's de facto Midwestern) were perceived to be in position to carry the lion's share of air traffic growth well into the future, and each wanted to be in position to maximize market share. At CLE, CO planned an elaborate rebuild of Concourse C but eventually scaled down the scope of the project, as well as then then-planned Concourse D; a second and third runway was perceived to be critical to the growth of the hub operation.

Put simply, CO was opposed to replacement terminals and ultimately, the CO/UA hub generated billions of dollars in local economic activity over its nearly 30-year run. Alas, CLE wasn't screwed and I'd argue that the nearly 30-year hub run did more for the local area than a replacement terminal would.

A significant investment has been made in modernizing CLE's terminals and IMO, they're in fairly sound shape. We're in a transitional period -- airlines are expediting their attempts for passengers to skip the traditional ticketing lobby and head straight to automated boarding gates. In a decade or so when CLE's in position of building a new terminal complex, they will be able to truly offer a modern experience.
You're not the CEO; you were a menial aircraft support mechanic intern, and that was four years ago.
 
joeman
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:21 pm

I'm happy PIT landed AS. Only a handful of larger markets to tap into in the Midwest/east, huh? CLE, CMH, CVG, CLT, maybe BDL or even BUF. I wonder if CLE will or ever could be on the AS map due to the F9 normally less than daily and seasonal only CLE-SEA route. We know how F9 is inconsistent in keeping routes going outside Florida and Vegas from CLE, let alone the rest of their ever changing system route map. Well, maybe AS will come to CLE around the time they're about to be gobbled up by a larger carrier (if ever for both scenarios of course, lol)
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:53 pm

DoT issued their August numbers on Thursday, but omitted data for Burke, Morristown, Cincinnati Lunken, and Atlanta Dekalb - airports served only by Ultimate - one cause could be that Ultimate failed to file. It could be a DoT issue, however, since the data update was strange (the data appeared; it went away; it appeared again); but if in fact Ultimate failed to file, I take that as not a good sign.

No surprises in the CLE data, traffic, while up year-oever-year, declined a little less than 3% from July, as is typical.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:55 pm

Enilria's weekly post says UA is increasing CLE-EWR from 5 to 7 in March, although it isn't reflected at ua.com yet. Maybe this means somebody else is coming into the market. UA increased BOS just before B6 started flying. Or it could mean they're cutting mainline and putting in more 50-seaters, which sounds more typical.
 
spreidel
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:27 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Thank you compensateme, very informative.

Hindsight being 20/20 it sure seems like money spent on the runway would have been better spent on a better pax facilities? I remember when that runway project was attached to people dreaming about flights to Asia. . . boy does that seem comical now.


Disagree. It was an open secret around that time that CX was looking for a midwest U.S. cargo station. The worldwide recession delayed those plans, but they wound up settling on LCK a few years ago. Brent Larkin of the PD wrote a wrongheaded article after the UA departure belittling the idea of Asian ops right around the time that Cathay service began about 120 miles down the road. To me, that's provincialism.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:41 pm

CLE's main runway was already plenty long (9,500' IIRC) for flights to Anchorage or Western Europe so the new runway construction was not needed to lure Asian cargo carriers.

It was definitely needed from a safety standpoint however. 23L/R were WAY too close and resulted in many runway incursions. With the new work they were also uncoupled from 10/28, another huge safety improvement.
FLYi
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:04 pm

spreidel wrote:
Brent Larkin of the PD wrote a wrongheaded article after the UA departure belittling the idea of Asian ops right around the time that Cathay service began about 120 miles down the road. To me, that's provincialism.


The Plain Dealer is Cleveland's worst enemy.
 
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CLEguy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:13 pm

flyPIT wrote:
CLE's main runway was already plenty long (9,500' IIRC) for flights to Anchorage or Western Europe so the new runway construction was not needed to lure Asian cargo carriers.

It was definitely needed from a safety standpoint however. 23L/R were WAY too close and resulted in many runway incursions. With the new work they were also uncoupled from 10/28, another huge safety improvement.


23L/5R was 8,999' before the extension, but close enough. ;) Agreed about the very necessary changes to the configuration due to safety concerns.
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:10 pm

Losing AS to PIT has to be a blow to CLE's recruitment team. It's a prime carrier vs. the fickle routings of F9 and NK. Somehow, CLE needs to figure out how to win these routes.

I guess no SLC and whatever was hinted at earlier in 2017 either.
 
acentauri
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:14 am

fun2fly wrote:
Losing AS to PIT has to be a blow to CLE's recruitment team. It's a prime carrier vs. the fickle routings of F9 and NK. Somehow, CLE needs to figure out how to win these routes.

I guess no SLC and whatever was hinted at earlier in 2017 either.

PIT provided $500K over 2 years for the flight. Did CLE do something similar?
 
lakeeffect
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:50 am

fun2fly wrote:
Losing AS to PIT has to be a blow to CLE's recruitment team. It's a prime carrier vs. the fickle routings of F9 and NK. Somehow, CLE needs to figure out how to win these routes.

I guess no SLC and whatever was hinted at earlier in 2017 either.


Frontier’s seasonal and less than daily CLE-SEA nonstop flight likely keeps AS or DL from flying it. CLE’s O&D to SEA is about 50 passengers each way more per day than PIT in the summer so it’s not like the demand isn’t there, the fares would be rock bottom though.

What’s interesting about CLE-SEA on F9 is that it was one of the first routes to be announced when United said they were dehubbing CLE. It’s also the only non sun destination (Florida/LAS) that they have consistently kept at CLE (and there’s a laundry list of discontinued destinations). So that leads me to believe it’s likely a pretty healthy route.
 
spreidel
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:24 am

CLEguy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
CLE's main runway was already plenty long (9,500' IIRC) for flights to Anchorage or Western Europe so the new runway construction was not needed to lure Asian cargo carriers.

It was definitely needed from a safety standpoint however. 23L/R were WAY too close and resulted in many runway incursions. With the new work they were also uncoupled from 10/28, another huge safety improvement.


23L/5R was 8,999' before the extension, but close enough. ;) Agreed about the very necessary changes to the configuration due to safety concerns.


Extra runway- in the case of Rickenbaker, 3000’ extra - allows the aircraft to take off with less thrust for a given payload and atmospheric condition. Less thrust = less wear & tear on the engines = lower operating costs. That’s an arrow I’m sure CLE hoped to add to its quiver.

I third the safety angle, also. There were multiple reasons why runway work was a good idea that are not intuitively obvious to a disinterested columnist or frustrated traveler.
 
joeman
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:42 pm

acentauri wrote:
fun2fly wrote:
Losing AS to PIT has to be a blow to CLE's recruitment team. It's a prime carrier vs. the fickle routings of F9 and NK. Somehow, CLE needs to figure out how to win these routes.

I guess no SLC and whatever was hinted at earlier in 2017 either.

PIT provided $500K over 2 years for the flight. Did CLE do something similar?

Right, AS can only expand so much at a time and CLE is giving cash to both WOW and FI to same destination.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:03 pm

joeman wrote:
acentauri wrote:
fun2fly wrote:
Losing AS to PIT has to be a blow to CLE's recruitment team. It's a prime carrier vs. the fickle routings of F9 and NK. Somehow, CLE needs to figure out how to win these routes.

I guess no SLC and whatever was hinted at earlier in 2017 either.

PIT provided $500K over 2 years for the flight. Did CLE do something similar?

Right, AS can only expand so much at a time and CLE is giving cash to both WOW and FI to same destination.


I believe CLE's budget for service promotions this year was $1.3 million and they've committed $1.0 million of it to the Icelanders. Since they are likely to be strongly cash positive lately, they could probably make an adjustment if the right deal came along.
 
SgtBarone
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:41 pm

What's the status of UA's seasonal service to CHS? I know service to SJU has been wound down until the effects of Hurricane Maria subside, but I can't seem to book a nonstop flight to CHS in 2018 yet.
AGP BCN BNA CLE CLT DEN FLG FRA IAD LAX MAD MCI MDW MUC PHX RSW SJU TPA
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:45 pm

Great points about CLE-SEA above. At least CLE-SEA F9 service is unsubsidized which shows how strong the O&D market is in the summer. AS CLE-SEA may happen without a subsidy. Can't fault AS for chasing easy additional revenue first.

CLE has links to SEA, PDX, SFO and LAX without having to throw cash at airlines yet "tech cities" like PIT and CMH are having to subsidize service to the West Coast.
 
SgtBarone
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:36 pm

To answer my own question, it looks like UA's seasonal service to CHS has finally gone away. You can use this tool on the website for United Cargo to look at flight schedules for any UA station on a year-round or seasonal basis. However, it looks like SJU service is returning in March.

https://booking.unitedcargo.com/skychai ... cheduleOpr
AGP BCN BNA CLE CLT DEN FLG FRA IAD LAX MAD MCI MDW MUC PHX RSW SJU TPA
 
Trk1
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:39 am

The Cle -Chs route has along with several other system wide non-daily summer seasonal routes rarely have been listed for sale until mid-March schedule.
Expect more this year rather than less. Working on details at present. You have seen many in the past 30 days.
 
Robert1010
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:01 am

I was just messing around on the WOW air app and was initially fired up at the new service but now not so much, Although they added more destinations serviced out of CLE , but can someone tell me why the 00:30 departure ? every city pairing requires a 8+ hr layover , this is obsurd and totally ridiculous, Same goes for DTW while all the departures out of PIT are excellent due to there 18:45 departure with minimal connection time,Can someone explain why anyone would fly them. I then went to Icelandair and they don’t even have CLE as one of their cities??? Not sure how these flts/airlines are going to do
 
AaronPGH
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:47 am

izbtmnhd wrote:
CLE has links to SEA, PDX, SFO and LAX without having to throw cash at airlines yet "tech cities" like PIT and CMH are having to subsidize service to the West Coast.


The only west coast service subsidized by PIT is SEA. And they got the airline they wanted out of it. For a "tech city", seasonal NK or F9 aren't going to cut it, so I'd say it was a good, deliberate move.
 
joeman
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:21 am

Robert1010 wrote:
I then went to Icelandair and they don’t even have CLE as one of their cities??? Not sure how these flts/airlines are going to do


I checked Icelandair website and checked/found CLE June departures leaving at 8:20pm. Here's their routemap:
http://www.icelandair.us/information/tr ... /routemap/
List of cities:
http://www.icelandair.us/destinations/

Didn't check WOW, but 8hr layovers will probably kill it
 
swacle
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:37 am

Robert1010 wrote:
I was just messing around on the WOW air app and was initially fired up at the new service but now not so much, Although they added more destinations serviced out of CLE , but can someone tell me why the 00:30 departure ? every city pairing requires a 8+ hr layover , this is obsurd and totally ridiculous, Same goes for DTW while all the departures out of PIT are excellent due to there 18:45 departure with minimal connection time,Can someone explain why anyone would fly them. I then went to Icelandair and they don’t even have CLE as one of their cities??? Not sure how these flts/airlines are going to do


As Joeman said, it's an 8:20pm departure 5 days a week aboard their new 737-Max8. Timing works much better for onward connections in Icelandair than on WOW who seem to only be concerned about the local market.
Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
 
Robert1010
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:23 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:28 pm

Agree,unless WOW moves that departure up I cannot see it lasting !
 
Jshank83
Posts: 950
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:02 pm

Robert1010 wrote:
I was just messing around on the WOW air app and was initially fired up at the new service but now not so much, Although they added more destinations serviced out of CLE , but can someone tell me why the 00:30 departure ? every city pairing requires a 8+ hr layover , this is obsurd and totally ridiculous, Same goes for DTW while all the departures out of PIT are excellent due to there 18:45 departure with minimal connection time,Can someone explain why anyone would fly them. I then went to Icelandair and they don’t even have CLE as one of their cities??? Not sure how these flts/airlines are going to do


I am seeing Paris, London, Berlin, Amsterdam, and Copenhagen all at about 90 minute layovers. Paris, London and Amsterdam also have quick layovers coming back also. Frankfurt is quick coming back so you could fly into Berlin and out of Frankfurt if you are on a vacation. So at least those are a couple major spots that have good turns. A few more are 4 hours then some like you said are almost a full day. I guess the full day ones you can spend a day in Iceland on which might appeal to some people. It seems like they also have been adding/adjusting some of their Europe side routes lately so maybe other cities will fill in better. Obviously not ideal for all places but at least 3 of the main spots are in good shape.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4878
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:36 pm

Trk1 wrote:
Expect more this year rather than less. Working on details at present. You have seen many in the past 30 days.


Well, there's a holiday tease; but coming from our UA expert, I believe him.
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 437
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:09 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:45 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
CLE has links to SEA, PDX, SFO and LAX without having to throw cash at airlines yet "tech cities" like PIT and CMH are having to subsidize service to the West Coast.


The only west coast service subsidized by PIT is SEA. And they got the airline they wanted out of it. For a "tech city", seasonal NK or F9 aren't going to cut it, so I'd say it was a good, deliberate move.


I think that PIT-SEA may have also been expedited because of the Amazon HQ decision, which Pittsburgh is largely considered to be one of the "finalists" for. PIT still suffers from abysmal West Coast service on the whole: No UA/AA/DL to LAX (only WN and NK), seasonal SFO on UA, and now a daily to SEA on AS.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4878
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:45 pm

Robert1010 wrote:
Agree,unless WOW moves that departure up I cannot see it lasting !


Jshank pointed out some connections. Wow said they are working on a second connection bank in KEF, since Wow's facility is maxed out in the early morning. So there is more to come; and if it doesn't come by next summer, they've still got major traffic points covered.

One nice thing about Wow's afternoon arrival on the continent is your hotel room might actually be ready at the time you get there. I swear there are hotel clerks who DELIGHT in telling the guests at ten in the morning, "Sorry your room won't be ready until 5PM. Next time may I suggest you book the night before."
 
joeman
Posts: 715
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:28 am

masseybrown wrote:
Trk1 wrote:
Expect more this year rather than less. Working on details at present. You have seen many in the past 30 days.


Well, there's a holiday tease; but coming from our UA expert, I believe him.

Hopefully, something involves CLE lol
 
cle757
Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:28 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:33 am

Rumors have been flying around at UA that some CLE maybe restored next spring!, SEA,SAN,PHX,LAS have been mentioned.
Cleveland the best location in the Nation
 
plinth857
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:37 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:33 am

cle757 wrote:
Rumors have been flying around at UA that some CLE maybe restored next spring!, SEA,SAN,PHX,LAS have been mentioned.


If all of those came back, that would be surprising. I see PHX and SEA perhaps, but SAN barely lasted as an F9 destination. If they DID bring back LAS, it begs the question why they cut it in the first place. Especially since there are now three other carriers serving it. However, I would love to see any of these come back as UA destinations from CLE, especially SAN.
 
joeman
Posts: 715
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:16 am

plinth857 wrote:
cle757 wrote:
Rumors have been flying around at UA that some CLE maybe restored next spring!, SEA,SAN,PHX,LAS have been mentioned.


If all of those came back, that would be surprising

If any of those came back it would be a welcome surprise. I suppose F9 reductions to the west open possibilities despite fare wars. UA would've been the last carrier I'd bet on for an add considering they never achieved even the after hub level they purported...ALB, BWI... followed by further reductions. We're really not use to an airline defending CLE turf by adding capacity to push out or block a potential competitive add like our prestigious market friends. Maybe the WOW/Icelandair thing however that went down both within a day?

The last time I ever started believing a CLE "rumor" before announcement though was when cle757 was suggesting that CO would begin CLE-CDG. It happened despite it's short life.
 
joeman
Posts: 715
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:17 am

plinth857 wrote:
cle757 wrote:
Rumors have been flying around at UA that some CLE maybe restored next spring!, SEA,SAN,PHX,LAS have been mentioned.


If all of those came back, that would be surprising

If any of those came back it would be a welcome surprise. I suppose F9 reductions to the west open possibilities despite fare wars. UA would've been the last carrier I'd bet on for an add considering they never achieved even the after hub level they purported...ALB, BWI... followed by further reductions. We're really not use to an airline defending CLE turf by adding capacity to push out or block a potential competitive add like our prestigious market friends. Maybe the WOW/Icelandair thing however that went down both within a day?

The last time I ever started believing a CLE "rumor" before announcement though was when cle757 was suggesting that CO would begin CLE-CDG. It happened despite it's short life.
 
joeman
Posts: 715
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:21 am

filler..posted twice

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