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AirportRival
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:36 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
Perhaps just schedule tweaks?


Check out the OAG thread, F9 did not make enough schedule adjustments/tweaks to add all the routes they did (21 cities and 85 routes to be precise), and if what is said above is true about new routes and connections then there must be something I am missing...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ine-giants


Most of the new routes that F9 just announced haven't been scheduled yet so they aren't going to show in the OAG thread yet. Most were announced to start in spring of 2018. And it is 100% true that those cities mentioned will be getting connections. However, that doesn't mean that they will all be like DEN is. Pax will just have more opportunities for connections instead of always having to go through DEN like they currently do.
A319, A320, A321, B1900F, B737-300, B737-400, B737-400F, B737-700, B737-800, B757-200, B757-200F, B767-200F, B767-300F, CRJ-200, CRJ-700, ERJ-145, E-170, E-175, MD-80, SD3-60F
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:53 pm

AirportRival wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
Perhaps just schedule tweaks?


Check out the OAG thread, F9 did not make enough schedule adjustments/tweaks to add all the routes they did (21 cities and 85 routes to be precise), and if what is said above is true about new routes and connections then there must be something I am missing...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ine-giants


Most of the new routes that F9 just announced haven't been scheduled yet so they aren't going to show in the OAG thread yet. Most were announced to start in spring of 2018. And it is 100% true that those cities mentioned will be getting connections. However, that doesn't mean that they will all be like DEN is. Pax will just have more opportunities for connections instead of always having to go through DEN like they currently do.


Sorry, I don't think I worded what I said correctly. I am aware there will be additional connections through those cities, and I have discussed that in various threads in the past months. I also know F9 is getting new aircraft, but for the time being I don't believe they have enough aircraft for all this expansion.
ATL BWI BOS CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DTW FLL RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP BNA EWR HVN MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD
 
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CLEguy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:04 pm

Several diversions today including UA1469 (LAX-EWR), 791 (ORD-CLT), 4187 (IND-EWR) and 1628 (MBJ-CLE). Does Does MBJ have pre-clearance facilities? Maybe they'll just head to EWR without de-boarding in CLE.

Also a couple of heavies bringing in NFL teams (Cardinals and Cowboys) for the Hall of Fame Game in Canton: GTI8614 (B744-PHX-CLE) and AA9466 (A332-NTD-CLE).
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:10 am

^MBJ does not have US pre-clearance. Looks like that MBJ-EWR flight that diverted to CLE arrived at CLE at 524pm ET and departed CLE for EWR at 1157pm ET (arriving EWR around 1am). That's 6.5 hours on the ground at CLE, so i'm guessing they deplaned and cleared CBP at Terminal A.....pretty long diversion!
 
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mariner
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:43 am

Midwestindy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
Perhaps just schedule tweaks?


Check out the OAG thread, F9 did not make enough schedule adjustments/tweaks to add all the routes they did (21 cities and 85 routes to be precise), and if what is said above is true about new routes and connections then there must be something I am missing...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ine-giants


They're not all being added at the same time and Frontier's most basic rule applies - east-seat in summer, north-south in winter.

They're presently gearing up for the coming winter, with new aircraft rolling off the lines, but by the time we get to spring ('18) a lot of those snowbird routes will go dormant, freeing up those aircraft for the summer ('18) routes - plus the new aircraft which will still coming in.

mariner
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greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:03 am

Nashville to get BA service to London?

"Nashville International Airport is poised land a direct flight to London on British Airways, culminating a multi-year effort by government, business and tourism leaders to secure the flight. An announcement is expected as soon as next week, sources told The Tennessean." (http://www.tennessean.com/story/money/2 ... 538475001/)

You would think Robert Kennedy, the new Port Control director in Cleveland, would be trying to land TATL service. But as far as I know, he kept the same incompetent air service development guy that Ricky Smith hired who couldn't keep such service in TEN YEARS and that had no real plan in place for when UA pulled out even though it was known for years that they were leaving. Cleveland is truly falling behind smaller cities. And I had high hopes for the new Port Director.....
 
chrisjake
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:30 am

Looks like the Atlas 744 that brought the Cardinals into town Wed is heading to CAK tonight.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/GTI8 ... /KCLE/KCAK

Pretty amazing when you think about how many 747 flights there actually have been between CLE-CAK when you throw in Angley's 747SP along with any other past Hall of Fame games.
 
joeman
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:28 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Nashville to get BA service to London?

"Nashville International Airport is poised land a direct flight to London on British Airways, culminating a multi-year effort by government, business and tourism leaders to secure the flight. An announcement is expected as soon as next week, sources told The Tennessean." (http://www.tennessean.com/story/money/2 ... 538475001/)

You would think Robert Kennedy, the new Port Control director in Cleveland, would be trying to land TATL service. But as far as I know, he kept the same incompetent air service development guy that Ricky Smith hired who couldn't keep such service in TEN YEARS and that had no real plan in place for when UA pulled out even though it was known for years that they were leaving. Cleveland is truly falling behind smaller cities. And I had high hopes for the new Port Director.....

So What's left without TATL? CLE, STL, IND, MCI, CMH, MKE, BUF...
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:36 pm

I'm happy for BNA but ultimately I find the announcement depressing. So many wins from smaller metro areas on the international front yet Cleveland seems to be without hope. I'm tired of driving to PIT or DTW for decent fares or nonstop service. I'm tired of purchasing a two ticket option to Europe from CLE to save money. . . . so many wonderful things going on in NE Ohio, yet the airport, both its aesthetic and its service--- bush league.
 
jplatts
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:42 pm

Will jetBlue be announcing nonstop service from CLE to JFK in the near future?
 
chrisjake
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:27 pm

ncflyer wrote:
I'm happy for BNA but ultimately I find the announcement depressing. So many wins from smaller metro areas on the international front yet Cleveland seems to be without hope. I'm tired of driving to PIT or DTW for decent fares or nonstop service. I'm tired of purchasing a two ticket option to Europe from CLE to save money. . . . so many wonderful things going on in NE Ohio, yet the airport, both its aesthetic and its service--- bush league.


...and it will continue as such until the city stops lining its pockets, realizes it has no clue as to how to run an airport, and gives up its grip to an regional entity.
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:56 pm

I'm afraid you're right. And by the way, how many airports in the country have as its only somewhat modern building a terminal that is mothballed, with essentially no prospects to ever be used again. It's sitting in a perfect location for more parking, or a car rental facility that isn't located in Lorain County. . . .

And how many airports have a 1950s vintage hotel at the entrance, greeting visitors from around the world-- unfortunately it's inescapable because CLE is built on such a small piece of land. At one point there were plans to renovate the exterior of that dump, not sure whatever happened to that. (It may be nice on the inside but all most people see is the brutalist concrete exterior).

So, so, so much has improved in the region, but not the airport, it's time to pressure civic leaders that the airport is often out of towners first and possibly even only impression of CLE.
Last edited by ncflyer on Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
stl07
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:58 pm

ncflyer wrote:
I'm happy for BNA but ultimately I find the announcement depressing. So many wins from smaller metro areas on the international front yet Cleveland seems to be without hope. I'm tired of driving to PIT or DTW for decent fares or nonstop service. I'm tired of purchasing a two ticket option to Europe from CLE to save money. . . . so many wonderful things going on in NE Ohio, yet the airport, both its aesthetic and its service--- bush league.

NOOOO. Cleveland is not without hope. Cleveland is smart. I can see why everyone on this forum is upset, but really, CLE (and STL, Sacramento) are the smarter ones, unlike these much smaller cities like BNA and NOLA who pump multi millions of dollars into the airlines checkbooks for a flight (PIT too). Buying out a route is not sustainable, nor justifiable when many people in these cities are under poverty line and the infrastructure needs help.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:05 pm

stl07 wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
I'm happy for BNA but ultimately I find the announcement depressing. So many wins from smaller metro areas on the international front yet Cleveland seems to be without hope. I'm tired of driving to PIT or DTW for decent fares or nonstop service. I'm tired of purchasing a two ticket option to Europe from CLE to save money. . . . so many wonderful things going on in NE Ohio, yet the airport, both its aesthetic and its service--- bush league.

NOOOO. Cleveland is not without hope. Cleveland is smart. I can see why everyone on this forum is upset, but really, CLE (and STL, Sacramento) are the smarter ones, unlike these much smaller cities like BNA and NOLA who pump multi millions of dollars into the airlines checkbooks for a flight (PIT too). Buying out a route is not sustainable, nor justifiable when many people in these cities are under poverty line and the infrastructure needs help.


What? Can you please re-read what you wrote... Incentives are common place in aviation, including in places like STL and CLE.
ATL BWI BOS CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DTW FLL RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP BNA EWR HVN MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD
 
Robert1010
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:43 pm

ncflyer wrote:
I'm afraid you're right. And by the way, how many airports in the country have as its only somewhat modern building a terminal that is mothballed, with essentially no prospects to ever be used again. It's sitting in a perfect location for more parking, or a car rental facility that isn't located in Lorain County. . . .

And how many airports have a 1950s vintage hotel at the entrance, greeting visitors from around the world-- unfortunately it's inescapable because CLE is built on such a small piece of land. At one point there were plans to renovate the exterior of that dump, not sure whatever happened to that. (It may be nice on the inside but all most people see is the brutalist concrete exterior).

So, so, so much has improved in the region, but not the airport, it's time to pressure civic leaders that the airport is often out of towners first and possibly even only impression of CLE.

Amen ! So in need of something modern! Place is a joke!
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:49 pm

ncflyer wrote:
I'm afraid you're right. And by the way, how many airports in the country have as its only somewhat modern building a terminal that is mothballed, with essentially no prospects to ever be used again. It's sitting in a perfect location for more parking, or a car rental facility that isn't located in Lorain County. . . .

And how many airports have a 1950s vintage hotel at the entrance, greeting visitors from around the world-- unfortunately it's inescapable because CLE is built on such a small piece of land. At one point there were plans to renovate the exterior of that dump, not sure whatever happened to that. (It may be nice on the inside but all most people see is the brutalist concrete exterior).

So, so, so much has improved in the region, but not the airport, it's time to pressure civic leaders that the airport is often out of towners first and possibly even only impression of CLE.


I agree but many in Cleveland take that "Cleveland against the world" stance and think the airport is "good enough". Yeah, it's "good enough" to never see any TATL service without massive incentives. As long as many Clevelanders continue to have a bunker mentality about any outside criticism it will never be the first tier city it was prior to the 1950s.
 
highflier92660
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:54 pm

ncflyer wrote:
I'm afraid you're right. And by the way, how many airports in the country have as its only somewhat modern building a terminal that is mothballed, with essentially no prospects to ever be used again. It's sitting in a perfect location for more parking, or a car rental facility that isn't located in Lorain County. . . .

And how many airports have a 1950s vintage hotel at the entrance, greeting visitors from around the world-- unfortunately it's inescapable because CLE is built on such a small piece of land. At one point there were plans to renovate the exterior of that dump, not sure whatever happened to that. (It may be nice on the inside but all most people see is the brutalist concrete exterior).

So, so, so much has improved in the region, but not the airport, it's time to pressure civic leaders that the airport is often out of towners first and possibly even only impression of CLE.



ncflyer you sound a bit like myself in moments of exasperation with Cleveland. But regarding that brutalist architectural design of the Sheraton hotel at the entrance to the airport, you may be a little harsh. While it will never be a U.S. airport icon like Luckman & Pereira's mid-century masterpiece Theme Building at LAX, the nine-story portion with the offending concrete exterior was built in the 1970s. Having spent many nights on the ninth floor I can attest the rooms are not dreadful.

A forgotten historical note: Back in the disco decade of the 70s that same top floor of the Sheraton was home to the best airport nightclub lounge in the country. The bar was large and the decor aeronautical chic with lighting from the elevators to the nightclub entrance mimicking ILS ladder lights on final approach. Visitors could see aircraft landing and taking off from tall wrap-around windows while live bands played then contemporary hits from bands of the era and couples gyrated on a spacious dance floor. No wonder ads in The Plain Dealer touted The Final Approach as "forever ending the myth there is nothing to do west of the Cuyahoga."
 
stl07
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:00 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
stl07 wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
I'm happy for BNA but ultimately I find the announcement depressing. So many wins from smaller metro areas on the international front yet Cleveland seems to be without hope. I'm tired of driving to PIT or DTW for decent fares or nonstop service. I'm tired of purchasing a two ticket option to Europe from CLE to save money. . . . so many wonderful things going on in NE Ohio, yet the airport, both its aesthetic and its service--- bush league.

NOOOO. Cleveland is not without hope. Cleveland is smart. I can see why everyone on this forum is upset, but really, CLE (and STL, Sacramento) are the smarter ones, unlike these much smaller cities like BNA and NOLA who pump multi millions of dollars into the airlines checkbooks for a flight (PIT too). Buying out a route is not sustainable, nor justifiable when many people in these cities are under poverty line and the infrastructure needs help.


What? Can you please re-read what you wrote... Incentives are common place in aviation, including in places like STL and CLE.

Yes, but the incentives are much higher at those cities
 
chrisjake
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:04 pm

^^ ahh yes, The Final Approach. That was a little before my airport employment time. For me it was always the Brown Derby nightclub at Brookpark and Rocky River, after work along with that little dive bar next door, what was it called....Nightflights or something like that? When we got tired of the loud music, it was a "nice" alternative.
 
Robert1010
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:38 pm

You don't have to be a first class city to have a nice airport ! Drove by it yesterday and man how aweful it looks ,especially next to the abandoned dildo factory on Henry Ford Blvd and Brookpark rd ! That whole area needs leveled!
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:04 am

chrisjake wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
I'm happy for BNA but ultimately I find the announcement depressing. So many wins from smaller metro areas on the international front yet Cleveland seems to be without hope. I'm tired of driving to PIT or DTW for decent fares or nonstop service. I'm tired of purchasing a two ticket option to Europe from CLE to save money. . . . so many wonderful things going on in NE Ohio, yet the airport, both its aesthetic and its service--- bush league.


...and it will continue as such until the city stops lining its pockets, realizes it has no clue as to how to run an airport, and gives up its grip to an regional entity.


I don't like how things are run at Hopkins either. But, I STRONGLY disagree that Hopkins (and BKL) should be taken from the City and given to some regional entity. Stripping the city of its assets only makes it weaker. The city already lost its transit system (CTS to what became RTA in 1975) and its sewer system (to what is now the NEORSD), and there are other examples as well. As long as the city has competent leadership (voting the right people into office) and the administration appoints the right person to head Port Control, the airport could be run fine. Staffing is the problem---take the Chief of Air Service Development---not the most competent guy--but that's a hiring issue (and easily fixable--more so than changing the mayor). The new director has thus far retained him for whatever reason.

The City took about a full year to replace Ricky Smith. That's unacceptable and demonstrates how little the Jackson Administration thinks of the importance of the airport (and probably explains why there is no mandate likely for Kennedy to bring in int'l service cause Jackson doesn't care about it.) But Jackson won't be there forever (though he's probably the best of the current bunch running for Mayor) and someone who understands air service better will come along. That person will come, but if the airport(s) is taken away, the assets and opportunities will be lost forever. Who's to say cuyahoga county (which has ZERO experience with a commercial airport) is more competent than Cleveland, or regional entity that has yet to exist and will have inherent organizational problems (which also has zero experience running an airport) would be better? The City of Cleveland would certainly be on the board of this organization and control most of the votes anyway.

Let's advocate for better leadership and better staffing, not to throw away an incredible asset, especially to organizations we know have zero experience in running a major airport.
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:59 pm

BKL is sporting a DL757 from the Yankees this AM.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:59 pm

I try to stay out of politics, so I'll just say the current county administration doesn't show me any compelling reason to take the airport away from Cleveland. The county already has an airport (KCGF) which they are neglecting as it is.
 
lakeeffect
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:28 pm

I was browsing NK's schedule for next April and there are a few adjustments for CLE and CAK. It looks like NK is keeping CLE-RSW daily through April. This had seasonally ended earlier in the past. DFW and BOS also seasonally return as daily a few weeks earlier next spring.

Over at CAK, on April 12th, the only Spirit flight showing as available to book is a single daily flight to MCO. The flights to LAS, FLL, TPA, and RSW all appear to end around April 10th and 11th. The seasonal flight to MYR also doesn't show up either.

I wonder if Spirit plans to add more to CAK than a single daily MCO? It seems odd to run 10 daily flights from CLE and then keep CAK with just 1 flight.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:33 pm

^Remember the CEO of Spirit is the former AirTran CEO, right? So he may have some emotional attachment to CAK, even though it doesn't make commercial sense. So maybe he's finally coming around, dropping all routes except one that would be best candidate to work, MCO.
 
lakeeffect
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:06 am

greenair727 wrote:
^Remember the CEO of Spirit is the former AirTran CEO, right? So he may have some emotional attachment to CAK, even though it doesn't make commercial sense. So maybe he's finally coming around, dropping all routes except one that would be best candidate to work, MCO.


I wouldn't be surprised if these were just seasonal reductions. Even then, NK was only running about 3.5 daily flights from CAK last spring, so going down to just 1 next spring seems a little odd. I think NK is realizing how difficult it is to fill planes at CAK when compared to fares and ULCC choices at CLE.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:25 am

Is this a hint of things to come or just a tease? WOW's flight selection pulldown menu lists CLE (along with AUS, DFW/DAL, IAH/HOU, LAS, PHX, SLC, TPA, and "View More") as departure points. If you select "View More" nothing comes up.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:03 am

^Interesting. I picked random days for CLE-KEF---15 aug and return 12 sept. here's what it gave me: $642: CLE-LAX on Spirit, then LAX-KEF on Wow. Return, KEF-BOS on Wow, then BOS-CLE on B6. Another routing is CLE-ORD on UA, then ORD-KEF on Wow.... Do they just pay off any airline? Its certainly not CLE-KEF non-stop.
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:06 am

greenair727 wrote:
^Interesting. I picked random days for CLE-KEF---15 aug and return 12 sept. here's what it gave me: $642: CLE-LAX on Spirit, then LAX-KEF on Wow. Return, KEF-BOS on Wow, then BOS-CLE on B6. Another routing is CLE-ORD on UA, then ORD-KEF on Wow.... Do they just pay off any airline? Its certainly not CLE-KEF non-stop.


There are some other odd routing patterns showing up also. CLE>MKE>DEN>HNL vs. CLE>DEN>HNL all on UA as the MKE market has tanked surely b/c of WN making that cheaper. First time I've seen this partnership integrated CLE>BOS on B6 and BOS>DXB on EK. It seems the search engines are getting more sophisticated and picking up the split ticket itineraries that we all used to do by buying one ticket to a domestic gateway and then the international ticket.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:17 pm

^ Emirates and JetBlue have been partners through JFK and BOS for a few years.

What I thought was interesting about WOW's selection of cities to list is there are 8 cities shown and 7 aircraft due for delivery next year. If you assume split weeks (one plane for two cities), the listed cities could all be planned schedule adds, still leaving three a/c for European expansion.
 
phluser
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:45 pm

lakeeffect wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
^Remember the CEO of Spirit is the former AirTran CEO, right? So he may have some emotional attachment to CAK, even though it doesn't make commercial sense. So maybe he's finally coming around, dropping all routes except one that would be best candidate to work, MCO.


I wouldn't be surprised if these were just seasonal reductions. Even then, NK was only running about 3.5 daily flights from CAK last spring, so going down to just 1 next spring seems a little odd. I think NK is realizing how difficult it is to fill planes at CAK when compared to fares and ULCC choices at CLE.


But the end of April is still pretty popular time to visit Florida, so it wouldn't fit with the expectation of the season to do it. Cutting CAK to one daily departure would probably make the economics even tougher to justify being there. If the Akron and Canton MSAs together sum to over 1M residents and FL succeeded there albeit 10 years ago, it would on seem there should be a market for Spirit atleast 3 or 4 flights, unless those residents don't mind going up to CLE, or something atypical. It would be strange IMO for them to cut CAK but stay in LBE ( a very rural primitive airport) for example, but maybe the local CAK market just isn't there anymore. I suppose we will have to wait to Spirit adjusts it's schedule further out; it's still pretty early.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:39 pm

^AirTran expanded very successfully at CAK at a time when the only LCC in CLE was WN and UA kept prices pretty high and with its hub, kept others out. Today its entirely different world at CLE so the competitive advantages at CAK are lower, plus for those not near it, its pretty far away, so for 1.5M people in Cuyahoga County (CLE), very few would travel all the way south to CAK.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:14 pm

After releasing the June numbers in a press release, CLE published May data in their website with greater detail. Year over year, total May traffic was 810K pax - up 9%, and international was up 5.5%. Outbound cargo was up 3.7% and inbound up 10.2%.

I wonder why international was slow in the first quarter. Warm winter?
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:10 pm

^I'm estimating a 2017 Year-end between 8.5 and 8.7M pax.
 
lakeeffect
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:10 pm

masseybrown wrote:
After releasing the June numbers in a press release, CLE published May data in their website with greater detail. Year over year, total May traffic was 810K pax - up 9%, and international was up 5.5%. Outbound cargo was up 3.7% and inbound up 10.2%.

I wonder why international was slow in the first quarter. Warm winter?


CLE has so few international seats per day that a slight change in equipment type on a flight to CUN or going from 4x weekly to 3x weekly can cause huge shifts in the international numbers.
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:31 pm

?? But don't connecting international Pax count in the stats (as long as they are traveling on a single ticket from Cle) ?? If I'm right then the impact of CUN seat counts would be lessened.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:46 pm

ncflyer wrote:
?? But don't connecting international Pax count in the stats (as long as they are traveling on a single ticket from Cle) ?? If I'm right then the impact of CUN seat counts would be lessened.


No; Int'l means int'l. CLE-INT'L, not CLE-EWR-INT'L.

What I'd like to know is if pre-cleared Canadian arrivals count as int'l. They should IMO.
FLYi
 
fsafsx
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:29 pm

I think wow is going to announce Cleveland this fall.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:41 pm

fsafsx wrote:
I think wow is going to announce Cleveland this fall.


Wouldn't shock me at all, to say the least.
ATL BWI BOS CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DTW FLL RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP BNA EWR HVN MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD
 
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CLEguy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:25 am

fsafsx wrote:
I think wow is going to announce Cleveland this fall.


Is that just a hunch or do you have some reliable source for this?
 
fsafsx
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:27 am

CLEguy wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
I think wow is going to announce Cleveland this fall.


Is that just a hunch or do you have some reliable source for this?
Its just a feeling that I have that cle is getting wow because cle is a much better candidate than detroit because they would be the only translantic airline where in detroit they may offer more money but their competing against delta
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:50 am

My hunch is no way. Why would WOW add CLE when it is such an easy drive to PIT. I think they'd add frequency to PIT first. I have no data other than people I know-- many of whom are glad to make the drive up the Ohio Turnpike.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:45 am

CLE now has a position (new this year?) called "Manager, International Air Services Development"; I have to believe the guy, John Hogan, is doing something to earn his pay.

CO once asked CLE for subsidy on the LGW route in order to operate it all year. CLE said no and CO cut the route to seasonal, which was profitable for them. CLE and city hall hated the idea of subsidy, but I think their position has changed 180 on that - especially since the Port Authority has generated so much ancillary business with their Cleveland-Europe liner service. I'm hoping for a TATL air route by summer 2019, if not sooner.
 
Jshank83
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:00 am

flyPIT wrote:


What I'd like to know is if pre-cleared Canadian arrivals count as int'l. They should IMO.


Preclear doesn't matter. International is international.
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:39 am

I would not like WOW to be our air service carrier TATL. Due to market size in CLE, if WOW comes first, we will never have a Tier1 carrier. I believe there was a statement by the airport stating that they were looking for Tier1 service TATL and that should be the goal. It may be delayed if BA chose BNA (not sure if that is confirmed). WOW works for ORD and PIT where they have other service alternatives.

With DL's success on CDG>PIT, I can't figure why DL/CLE can't get together on a CLE>PIT or AMS 757 route. DL likes the non hub routes vs. AA. UA is probably out of the question, since they had the chance for a long time, but never did anything.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:47 pm

masseybrown wrote:
CLE now has a position (new this year?) called "Manager, International Air Services Development"; I have to believe the guy, John Hogan, is doing something to earn his pay.

CO once asked CLE for subsidy on the LGW route in order to operate it all year. CLE said no and CO cut the route to seasonal, which was profitable for them. CLE and city hall hated the idea of subsidy, but I think their position has changed 180 on that - especially since the Port Authority has generated so much ancillary business with their Cleveland-Europe liner service. I'm hoping for a TATL air route by summer 2019, if not sooner.


Looking at paltry amount of international service from Hopkins, it's hard to say he's "earning his pay" until he actually delivers on something beyond weekend service to Jamaica.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:49 pm

^Don't know much about Hogan. But there's also this guy: "Todd F. Payne was selected to join the Department of Port Control in December 2006 as Chief of Marketing and Air Service Development." (http://clevelandairport.com/about-us/leadership). He's been there for 11 years -- he's very certainly not "earning his pay". If Hogan is good, Hogan should replace him. Otherwise, hopefully the new director will bring in a more competent chief to run this unit that will actually bring in TATL from a "Tier 1" carrier.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:23 pm

greenair727 wrote:
^Don't know much about Hogan. But there's also this guy: "Todd F. Payne was selected to join the Department of Port Control in December 2006 as Chief of Marketing and Air Service Development." (http://clevelandairport.com/about-us/leadership). He's been there for 11 years -- he's very certainly not "earning his pay". If Hogan is good, Hogan should replace him. Otherwise, hopefully the new director will bring in a more competent chief to run this unit that will actually bring in TATL from a "Tier 1" carrier.


I believe Hogan works for Payne. :smile:

CLE's recovery from the sudden loss of the UA hub has been quite amazing to me. Somebody did a great sales job snagging Frontier, Spirit, JetBlue, and Allegiant, plus getting Delta, Southwest, and American to expand their schedules. Whoever "somebody" is, it wasn't Ricky Smith and it wasn't City Hall.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:03 pm

masseybrown wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
^Don't know much about Hogan. But there's also this guy: "Todd F. Payne was selected to join the Department of Port Control in December 2006 as Chief of Marketing and Air Service Development." (http://clevelandairport.com/about-us/leadership). He's been there for 11 years -- he's very certainly not "earning his pay". If Hogan is good, Hogan should replace him. Otherwise, hopefully the new director will bring in a more competent chief to run this unit that will actually bring in TATL from a "Tier 1" carrier.


I believe Hogan works for Payne. :smile:

CLE's recovery from the sudden loss of the UA hub has been quite amazing to me. Somebody did a great sales job snagging Frontier, Spirit, JetBlue, and Allegiant, plus getting Delta, Southwest, and American to expand their schedules. Whoever "somebody" is, it wasn't Ricky Smith and it wasn't City Hall.


1. The UA hub closure was not a 'sudden loss'. Every informed/insightful person knew it was coming and had a few years to prepare. I'd say the airport had NO PLAN in place when the announcement was made.
2. JetBlue is great, but its only 2 routes. The other carriers you cited can't compare to a business-level service---especially operating 3 days a week? No serious traveller can really operate that way. Yes, they brought up pax numbers and lowered CPE, but its not really good 'air service'. Not only does CLE lack AMS, LHR, etc. but also still doesn't have even Kansas City.
3. Airlines aren't stupid. There's a lot of money in Cleveland and a lot of people. If there was no "somebody" marketing Cleveland, those routes/carriers that did appear after UA dehubbed the city would probably have occurred anyway because, with the UA hub gone, there's money to be made. I'm not convinced Payne's 11 years of 'experience' at CLE has brought the airport anything. (Just found this article, which demonstrates his lack of understanding: "Todd Payne, director of marketing and air-service development at Hopkins, said improved technology might one day allow for jets to take off for Asia from shorter runways. 'Eventually, it might not be necessary to have super-long runways,' Payne said."(http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/05 ... on_ho.html) What better way to sell the city than to defend short runways with poor insight?
4. What the city really needs--and would be the true measure of these CLE route development people--would be nonstop service to LHR/CDG/FRA, MEX, etc.
5. I don't know these guys, and if Hogan has been there for one year then he gets a pass, but the Chief has been there for 11 and nothing real to show for it while cities smaller than Cleveland are getting new international services. There's no excuse for so many years of poor performance.
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:38 pm

greenair727 wrote:
5. I don't know these guys, and if Hogan has been there for one year then he gets a pass, but the Chief has been there for 11 and nothing real to show for it while cities smaller than Cleveland are getting new international services. There's no excuse for so many years of poor performance.


This is the real point, PIT a moderate size similar geography peer airport, has done well landing several carriers and CLE did not. That's how you measure success and CLE failed. Perhaps this guy, with the lack of support of City Hall, is lucky to have landed Jamaica? I don't know, but I bet he didn't have the same tools as others. So, the failure is on many, but the region is to suffer.

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