DaufuskieGuy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:20 am

Robert1010 wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
pitbosflyer wrote:
Looks like DL #97 made a pitstop in CLE last night on its way back from Paris. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /LFPG/KCLE
Must have needed more fuel to wait out the weather in PIT.


DL isn't shy about using CLE for DTW diversions either. CLE welcomes all business. :smile:

Since we can't get any of our own Int' service!


has the city lobbied UA for resumption of LHR? you have a big freq flyer base from the CO days, UA has 6 slots in use for EWR which seems like a lot. plus some star connections ex LHR. would think you could fill a 757.
 
LifetimeGS
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:34 pm

UA and City Hall are not on the greatest terms and UA/CO dropped service with the hub years ago in favor of more EWR frequencies.

Look for more expansion from F9 in CLE in a few weeks.
 
ncflyer
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:49 pm

Why wouldn't F9 have included new CLE routes with their major announcement yesterday? I'm assuming this is it for a while, and honestly a little envious that CVG seems to be getting some very nice routes in this announcement (though who knows when and with what frequency).
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:43 pm

cvgComair wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
Ultimate at BKL was down slightly in April compared to last year boarding 814 vs 886 with a 67.8% load factor vs 70.3% the year before. In 2016 Ultimate operated two more flights (42 vs 40 this year) accounting for much of the decrease. Adding Atlanta as a beyond point doesn't seem to have done much for them.


Apparently there was not many people doing the BKL-LUK-PDK segment and they recently stopped offering it as an option on their online booking system.


Ultimate is still promoting BKL-PDK on the Facebook/Twitter pages, although you're right it doesn't seem to be bookable at their website. Some internal disconnect? I still don't get the LUK-MDW cut; maybe it's some unscheduled maintwenance issue.
 
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cvgComair
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:13 pm

masseybrown wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
Ultimate at BKL was down slightly in April compared to last year boarding 814 vs 886 with a 67.8% load factor vs 70.3% the year before. In 2016 Ultimate operated two more flights (42 vs 40 this year) accounting for much of the decrease. Adding Atlanta as a beyond point doesn't seem to have done much for them.

Apparently there was not many people doing the BKL-LUK-PDK segment and they recently stopped offering it as an option on their online booking system.

Ultimate is still promoting BKL-PDK on the Facebook/Twitter pages, although you're right it doesn't seem to be bookable at their website. Some internal disconnect? I still don't get the LUK-MDW cut; maybe it's some unscheduled maintwenance issue.

It is possible that WN starting CVG-MDW is affecting the demand. I know a lot of travelers did not like UE dropping out of CVG, but they wanted to consolidate operations. With 4 carries offering CIN-CHI service (AA: 7xday, UA: 7x/day, DL: 5x/day, WN: 5x/day), there is already plenty of service already. It makes sense that LUK-BKL does so well since they are not competing with any other carriers.
Next: CVG-CDG-ATH (Delta Air Lines B767-300ER, Air France A319)
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
jplatts
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:13 pm

cvgComair wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
cvgComair wrote:
Apparently there was not many people doing the BKL-LUK-PDK segment and they recently stopped offering it as an option on their online booking system.

Ultimate is still promoting BKL-PDK on the Facebook/Twitter pages, although you're right it doesn't seem to be bookable at their website. Some internal disconnect? I still don't get the LUK-MDW cut; maybe it's some unscheduled maintwenance issue.

It is possible that WN starting CVG-MDW is affecting the demand. I know a lot of travelers did not like UE dropping out of CVG, but they wanted to consolidate operations. With 4 carries offering CIN-CHI service (AA: 7xday, UA: 7x/day, DL: 5x/day, WN: 5x/day), there is already plenty of service already. It makes sense that LUK-BKL does so well since they are not competing with any other carriers.


The CIN airport code is actually in use by Arthur N. Neu Airport in Carroll, Iowa, even though this airport does not have any commercial air service.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:32 am

Ultimate's drop-down menu for destinations now includes Green Bay, although that route is also unbookable.
 
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cvgComair
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:42 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Ultimate's drop-down menu for destinations now includes Green Bay, although that route is also unbookable.

It is a one time flight on September 24 for the Epic Systems conference. Delta and United also added one time routes to numerous other cities for the conference.
Next: CVG-CDG-ATH (Delta Air Lines B767-300ER, Air France A319)
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
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knope2001
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:05 pm

cvgComair wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
Ultimate's drop-down menu for destinations now includes Green Bay, although that route is also unbookable.

It is a one time flight on September 24 for the Epic Systems conference. Delta and United also added one time routes to numerous other cities for the conference.


Actually I think it's due to the Bengals playing at Green Bay on 9/24. When the Epic conference was mentioned the other week regarding the GRB flight I thought it was odd they'd fly into Green Bay since it's around a 2.5 hour drive to Madison. Don't know why it never dawned on me to check for a game at Lambeau.

I wonder if they do (or will do) this sort of thing regularly for certain Bengals away games. They don't fly on Sundays so the aircraft are free. A game like Green Bay is far enough away to make driving crappy (about 7.5 hours) but close enough to make the FRJ flight reasonable. Obviously it's not a cheap flight -- I'd guess perhaps they'll charge $400-$500 round trip but traveling to an away game is always expensive, and this allows you to save a couple of hotel nights, time away from work and gas/car expense.
 
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cvgComair
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:32 pm

knope2001 wrote:
Actually I think it's due to the Bengals playing at Green Bay on 9/24. When the Epic conference was mentioned the other week regarding the GRB flight I thought it was odd they'd fly into Green Bay since it's around a 2.5 hour drive to Madison. Don't know why it never dawned on me to check for a game at Lambeau.


That makes a lot more sense! I though it was odd that they were not flying into Madison. It will be interesting to see if they do this more.
Next: CVG-CDG-ATH (Delta Air Lines B767-300ER, Air France A319)
A319/320/332, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:14 pm

Every now and then it pays to look at how comparable midwestern cities are doing, since service changes at CLE have slowed to a crawl. (I know PIT claims to be Midatlantic, but when I was a kid a million years ago, the Midwest started at the eastern continental divide.)

April 2017 Domestic passengers, DoT data:

CLE 704.0K
CMH 603.8K
CVG 563.0K
IND 706.0K
PIT 676.5K

At the bottom of the post-UA dip (summer 2014), IND and PIT were substantially larger than CLE. It will be interesting to see how PIT's enviable success in attracting int'l flights affects their domestic numbers.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:27 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Every now and then it pays to look at how comparable midwestern cities are doing, since service changes at CLE have slowed to a crawl. (I know PIT claims to be Midatlantic, but when I was a kid a million years ago, the Midwest started at the eastern continental divide.)

April 2017 Domestic passengers, DoT data:

CLE 704.0K
CMH 603.8K
CVG 563.0K
IND 706.0K
PIT 676.5K

At the bottom of the post-UA dip (summer 2014), IND and PIT were substantially larger than CLE. It will be interesting to see how PIT's enviable success in attracting int'l flights affects their domestic numbers.


I live in the heart of Mid-Atlantic country and nobody here really considers Western PA part of this region. I think it's only done that way because Pennsylvania is considered a Mid-Atlantic state.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:57 pm

The PD in a clumsily worded article is reporting that June numbers are about 880K pax for the month. An 11% increase by the DoT data would be about 850K, but CLE includes charters. Either way, it's a nice pop. Year to date 4,3 million vs. 4.1 million last year.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ss ... river_home
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:12 pm

masseybrown wrote:
The PD in a clumsily worded article is reporting that June numbers are about 880K pax for the month. An 11% increase by the DoT data would be about 850K, but CLE includes charters. Either way, it's a nice pop. Year to date 4,3 million vs. 4.1 million last year.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ss ... river_home



Airport press release is clearer:

http://www.clevelandairport.com/cle-pas ... p-113-june

An 11.3% increase in June y-o-y and I believe if my math is correct a 5.3% increase for y-o-y during the first six months.

Also found this quote interesting:

“We already know of a 10% increase in airline seats for 2017 over 2016, which speaks to the strength of the Cleveland marketplace, and we anticipate more announcements before the end of 2017.”

Hopefully it's more WN "luv".
 
lakeeffect
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:12 pm

masseybrown wrote:
The PD in a clumsily worded article is reporting that June numbers are about 880K pax for the month. An 11% increase by the DoT data would be about 850K, but CLE includes charters. Either way, it's a nice pop. Year to date 4,3 million vs. 4.1 million last year.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ss ... river_home


11.3% growth is a pretty substantial jump in traffic, but not unexpected given F9's huge summer capacity bump, G4 as a new entrant, and WN's large capacity boost (and closure of CAK operations). YTD, CLE is up just a hair over 230,000 pax versus last year. At that rate CLE would fall just short of 9 million passengers this year.

Southwest has another schedule extension on Thursday so it will be interesting to see if anything else gets added. WN has been quietly building up CLE the past year.
 
jplatts
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:54 pm

lakeeffect wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
The PD in a clumsily worded article is reporting that June numbers are about 880K pax for the month. An 11% increase by the DoT data would be about 850K, but CLE includes charters. Either way, it's a nice pop. Year to date 4,3 million vs. 4.1 million last year.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ss ... river_home


11.3% growth is a pretty substantial jump in traffic, but not unexpected given F9's huge summer capacity bump, G4 as a new entrant, and WN's large capacity boost (and closure of CAK operations). YTD, CLE is up just a hair over 230,000 pax versus last year. At that rate CLE would fall just short of 9 million passengers this year.

Southwest has another schedule extension on Thursday so it will be interesting to see if anything else gets added. WN has been quietly building up CLE the past year.


Will Southwest be announcing nonstop service to DAL from CLE on Thursday? The Dallas-Cleveland market is larger than the Dallas-Cincinnati market, and AA is currently the only airline to have year-round nonstop service to Dallas from Cleveland. The demand for Dallas to Cleveland flights has increased since United discontinued CLE-DFW service, and Southwest can now go to CLE nonstop from DAL with the repeal of the Wright Amendment. In addition, CLE only sees 5 daily nonstop flights to DFW (with 4 daily nonstops on AA and 1 seasonal daily nonstop on Spirit), whereas CVG sees 6-8 daily nonstop flights to DFW (with 4 daily nonstops on AA, 2-3 daily nonstops on DL, and 1 daily nonstop on F9 on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, and Saturdays) and CMH sees 6 daily nonstops to Dallas (with 5 daily nonstops to DFW on AA and 1 daily nonstop to DAL on Southwest). Southwest is also coming close to becoming the dominant carrier at CLE, even though United is still the dominant carrier at CLE even with the UA dehubbing at CLE.
 
lakeeffect
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:30 am

Southwest added a Saturday only CLE-MCO nonstop with this schedule extension, which hasn't been flown for a few years. Peak day departures is up to 21. Destinations served now up to 11.
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:57 am

lakeeffect wrote:
Southwest added a Saturday only CLE-MCO nonstop with this schedule extension, which hasn't been flown for a few years. Peak day departures is up to 21. Destinations served now up to 11.


It's not that great of a deal. MCO is a traveling with kids destination. The WN flight leaves at 5:30 AM. Who, in their right mind, is going to get their kids up at 3:30 AM to fly WN when there are tons of other, better timed options?

Also, the schedule extension lets you leave on the Saturday before Easter, but not come back as the schedule is not released then so it's not going to catch too much traffic vs. the other carriers.

Overall, a weak add for WN when we were hoping for more.
 
lakeeffect
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:57 pm

fun2fly wrote:
lakeeffect wrote:
Southwest added a Saturday only CLE-MCO nonstop with this schedule extension, which hasn't been flown for a few years. Peak day departures is up to 21. Destinations served now up to 11.


It's not that great of a deal. MCO is a traveling with kids destination. The WN flight leaves at 5:30 AM. Who, in their right mind, is going to get their kids up at 3:30 AM to fly WN when there are tons of other, better timed options?

Also, the schedule extension lets you leave on the Saturday before Easter, but not come back as the schedule is not released then so it's not going to catch too much traffic vs. the other carriers.

Overall, a weak add for WN when we were hoping for more.


I certainly agree with those points. This is just aircraft utilization. Instead of sending a plane to Midway on Saturday morning where there's zero business traffic, they'll send it to MCO instead where demand peaks. Nonetheless, Southwest has paid attention to CLE for several extensions in a row now, and given their fleet constraints it's at least noteworthy. CLE will probably have to wait until WN extends their summer schedule past June 2018 for any additional daily routes.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:23 pm

fun2fly wrote:
The WN flight leaves at 5:30 AM.


I really don't understand these oh-dark-thirty flights - for the exact reason you mention - and yet, it's happening more and more. In the bad old days Eastern thought a 9:00AM Florida departure was pushing things about as early as they would go.

lakeeffect wrote:
CLE will probably have to wait until WN extends their summer schedule past June 2018 for any additional daily routes.


Yes. One positive indicator: their schedule lists CLE as a connecting point more frequently than formerly.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:16 pm

Late find for the WN update ... CLE-PHX goes double daily and 3x on Saturday.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:19 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Late find for the WN update ... CLE-PHX goes double daily and 3x on Saturday.
Probably spring training related.
 
lakeeffect
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:52 pm

CLE has nonstop service to Florida on all 8 domestic carriers serving the airport: Frontier, Spirit, Allegiant, JetBlue, Southwest, Delta, United, and American.

The question is, are there any other airports in the US (outside Florida) that have 8 carriers with nonstops to Florida?

It's really impressive the amount of Florida air service Cleveland has.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:11 pm

lakeeffect wrote:
It's really impressive the amount of Florida air service Cleveland has.


I'm guessing a second CLE-FLL will probably be JetBlue's next addition to the CLE sked. During their latest earnings conference B6 didn't badmouth the E190s again, so perhaps their reappraisal has found a continuing role for them. The second flight could start with an E190.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:37 pm

I know there's Cleveland Clinic Florida. But outside of that, and any connections in MIA to Latin America, is any of the CLE-Florida travel business or is it all mostly leisure? With so much capacity, it should enable some business links.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:55 pm

CLE is taking notice of the first 787 landing, a CDG diversion from IAD. It is a nice looking plane. It also seems UA is sending more diversions CLE's way this season after a long drought.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BXGrE5aBpEA ... port&hl=en
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:10 pm

greenair727 wrote:
I know there's Cleveland Clinic Florida. But outside of that, and any connections in MIA to Latin America, is any of the CLE-Florida travel business or is it all mostly leisure? With so much capacity, it should enable some business links.


I believe there are a couple of RE holding companies near FLL with Cleveland properties under development. Hudson Holdings in Delray Beach, for one example, is redeveloping 925 Euclid Ave.
 
flyCMH
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:38 pm

greenair727 wrote:
I know there's Cleveland Clinic Florida. But outside of that, and any connections in MIA to Latin America, is any of the CLE-Florida travel business or is it all mostly leisure? With so much capacity, it should enable some business links.


I would imagine convention traffic is pretty robust. Orlando and Miami constantly rank high in biggest convention cities, and Cleveland is rapidly rising as a convention destination as well.
712,722,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,744,752/3,762/3,772/3,788,318,319,320,321,332,333,343,346,380,D93,
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masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:56 pm

masseybrown wrote:
CLE is taking notice of the first 787 landing, a CDG diversion from IAD. It is a nice looking plane. It also seems UA is sending more diversions CLE's way this season after a long drought.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BXGrE5aBpEA ... port&hl=en


There's an interesting bit of chat on that IG post. A couple of posters say the reason the 787 diverted to CLE was an equipment-related inability at PIT to refuel the plane. On the tech forum, a poster assures that the 787 has the same hose connections as every other modern plane. Things that make you go hmmm ...
 
787Freak
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:37 pm

If you look at the Flightradar playback of the flight you see the aircraft join a downwind for PIT and then climb again and head to CLE
 
phluser
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:47 pm

flyCMH wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
I know there's Cleveland Clinic Florida. But outside of that, and any connections in MIA to Latin America, is any of the CLE-Florida travel business or is it all mostly leisure? With so much capacity, it should enable some business links.


I would imagine convention traffic is pretty robust. Orlando and Miami constantly rank high in biggest convention cities, and Cleveland is rapidly rising as a convention destination as well.


That's why I'm somewhat surprised that only F9 and NK offer CLE-MCO daily on weekdays, when UA cuts to less than daily, during the slow season, i.e. October. Likely there is still convention and business traffic into/out of Orlando from Northeast Ohio even on a Tuesday in October. I'm surprised WN hasn't started daily year-round service on CLE-MCO, but maybe it will happen, as it does PIT-MCO, CMH-MCO and PHL-MCO (which has a lot of competition). I also wonder if B6 is making a play for MCO biz traffic, atleast with it's MCO-ATL ambitions. The announcement of it made me wonder, but B6 might not service it in the end. But it has RIC-MCO (likely smaller than CLE-MCO) to itself and likely carries some biz traffic on it.
 
jplatts
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:51 pm

Will Southwest be announcing nonstop service from CLE to its home base at DAL in the near future? Demand for Dallas to Cleveland flights has increased since the repeal of the Wright Amendment, United Airlines and Frontier Airlines have both discontinued nonstop service to DFW from CLE, Spirit Airlines only operates CLE-DFW nonstop service seasonally, and American Airlines is currently the only airline that has year-round nonstop service to Dallas from Cleveland. CLE currently also fewer daily nonstop flights to DFW than IND and CMH do, and the CLE-DFW market is similar in size to the IND-DFW and CMH-DFW markets.

Southwest can do well on CLE-DAL nonstop service if it adds nonstop service to DAL from CLE, even though airlines other than American that have served DFW nonstop from CLE since the United Airlines dehubbing at CLE have struggled on DFW-CLE nonstop service, since Southwest is the dominant carrier at DAL, since Southwest has its home base at DAL, since Southwest is coming close to becoming the dominant carrier at CLE, and since American Airlines is currently the only airline to have year-round nonstop service to Dallas from CLE.

Ten years ago, I thought that Southwest might serve DAL nonstop from CLE after the repeal of the Wright Amendment, even though Southwest hasn't yet announced plans to serve CLE nonstop from DAL and even though Southwest's plans had changed with the Southwest-AirTran merger.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:47 pm

jplatts wrote:
... since Southwest is coming close to becoming the dominant carrier at CLE...


Nobody buys a ticket on Endeavor or Republic or Mesa---they're buying tickets from the mainline carriers. So to see marketshare of the branded airlines, you must include the feeder carriers. Of the DOMESTIC, SCHEDULED service, UA has 25.5% of market (UA+ExpressJet, GoJet, Mesa, Republic, and Trans States), WN has 15.8%, AA has 15.4%, DL has 14.7%, and F9 has 11.5%, Spirit has 8.0%, and B6 has 3.0%. (this totals 93.9% of all pax at CLE). These are April 2017 numbers. So WN is second, but I wouldn't say close to overtaking UA-ticketed pax.

I know folks love WN, but I'd much rather see transatlantic service -- and efforts for that -- than WN expansions (unless, of course, it was WN providing that service!)
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:32 pm

Even with no service in the market, CLE-DAL is 61 pax a day both ways, most of whom already fly on WN via connection. They could probably pull enough pax from CLE-DFW (657 a day) to fill a flight, but would it be worth it to them? Or would they rather start CLE-HOU with the possibility of int'l connections and a less aggressive competitor?. I believe CLE-HOU will come first.
 
fun2fly
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:51 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Even with no service in the market, CLE-DAL is 61 pax a day both ways, most of whom already fly on WN via connection. They could probably pull enough pax from CLE-DFW (657 a day) to fill a flight, but would it be worth it to them? Or would they rather start CLE-HOU with the possibility of int'l connections and a less aggressive competitor?. I believe CLE-HOU will come first.


Agreed. HOU economy needs to perk up a bit first to cement the deal for multiple dailies. UA is still offering significant routing discounts via to prop up the route until the economy rebounds: IAH. CLE>EWR>NAS = $225 CLE>IAH>NAS $153. If not, WN could just go with 1x daily for the INTL connections alone. UA is already down to E175's and ERJ's on many flights to IAH...amazing decrease from the 753 days.

When do we think we'll see the first major improvement for the new director announced? Or do we need to spend $1m on another strategic planning study for the new guy?
 
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flyPIT
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:53 pm

masseybrown wrote:
There's an interesting bit of chat on that IG post. A couple of posters say the reason the 787 diverted to CLE was an equipment-related inability at PIT to refuel the plane. On the tech forum, a poster assures that the 787 has the same hose connections as every other modern plane. Things that make you go hmmm ...


Looks like this flight would have landed at PIT Friday afternoon... right before our own 3 scheduled European arrivals plus 2 more from the Caribbean right after. I think it would have overwhelmed the customs facilities at PIT if they decided to deplane, and that's even if an open int'l gate would have been available. So perhaps someone at PIT got a hold of United's SOC and asked them to send it elsewhere. Funny just last week in the PIT thread I mentioned that if PIT gets one more int'l flight during this time period there would be no more int'l gates available (there are 6 now). I'm purely speculating but perhaps this is what was meant by "inability to refuel". You know how initial statements take on a life of its own.

Having said that I don't see why it could not have used remote parking; looks like that's what they ended up doing at CLE anyway:
http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/cleveland/boeing-787-dreamliner-diverted-to-cleveland-for-first-ever-ohio-visit-photos/460321811

As far as refueling at PIT the Steelers have used an AA 787 before so I doubt that is really the issue.
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flyPIT
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:04 am

flyPIT wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
There's an interesting bit of chat on that IG post. A couple of posters say the reason the 787 diverted to CLE was an equipment-related inability at PIT to refuel the plane. On the tech forum, a poster assures that the 787 has the same hose connections as every other modern plane. Things that make you go hmmm ...


Looks like this flight would have landed at PIT Friday afternoon... right before our own 3 scheduled European arrivals plus 2 more from the Caribbean right after. I think it would have overwhelmed the customs facilities at PIT if they decided to deplane, and that's even if an open int'l gate would have been available. So perhaps someone at PIT got a hold of United's SOC and asked them to send it elsewhere. Funny just last week in the PIT thread I mentioned that if PIT gets one more int'l flight during this time period there would be no more int'l gates available (there are 6 now). I'm purely speculating but perhaps this is what was meant by "inability to refuel". You know how initial statements take on a life of its own.

Having said that I don't see why it could not have used remote parking; looks like that's what they ended up doing at CLE anyway:
http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/cleveland/boeing-787-dreamliner-diverted-to-cleveland-for-first-ever-ohio-visit-photos/460321811

As far as refueling at PIT the Steelers have used an AA 787 before so I doubt that is really the issue.


Edit: Also, if PIT really could not handle the 787 it would not have been listed as the alternate on the dispatch release. All alternates must be approved in a carrier's Ops Specs and are aircraft specific.
FLYi
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:26 pm

flyPIT wrote:
I'm purely speculating but perhaps this is what was meant by "inability to refuel". You know how initial statements take on a life of its own.


Your conjecture makes more sense than the lack of equipment story.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:41 pm

The 787 CDG flight was only in CLE around 70 minutes. Pax didn't de-board and clear INS did they?
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:48 pm

Here it is August 1 and AA is still using the temporary C gates plus A1 now and then.You might think using their own gates would be cheaper than using common gates, but maybe not. There must be no financial incentive for hastening the switch over. Apparently C3 is used once a day or so, but none of the others. I know it doesn't really matter much, but why the delay?
 
swacle
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:21 pm

Frontier regularly uses the old AA Gates A5 and A7 so if I had to guess I would say F9 was promised use of those gates for their summer schedule forcing AA to move early. If that is the case, the delay is all on AA.
Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
 
jplatts
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:04 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Even with no service in the market, CLE-DAL is 61 pax a day both ways, most of whom already fly on WN via connection. They could probably pull enough pax from CLE-DFW (657 a day) to fill a flight, but would it be worth it to them? Or would they rather start CLE-HOU with the possibility of int'l connections and a less aggressive competitor?. I believe CLE-HOU will come first.


HOU does provide access to connections that cannot be done through DAL on Southwest, including international destinations along with destinations in the South Texas region that see nonstop service to HOU on Southwest but no nonstop service to DAL on Southwest. In addition, DFW is also slightly closer to downtown Dallas than IAH is to downtown Houston, and HOU is also further from IAH (where IAH is on the north side of the city of Houston and where HOU is on the southeast side of Houston) than DFW is from DAL (where both airports are located northwest of downtown Dallas, with DAL being closer to downtown within the Dallas city limits and DFW being located midway between Dallas and Fort Worth).

There was significant demand for Cleveland to Houston flights prior to the United-Continental merger with 260,000 passengers a year who travelled between CLE and IAH 10 years ago, and there might have even been enough demand for Southwest to serve HOU nonstop from CLE 10 years ago even though Southwest decided not to start nonstop service to HOU from CLE back then. Southwest could still add nonstop service to HOU from CLE since Southwest now has international service from HOU, since HOU is closer to most of the major business and tourist destinations in Greater Houston than IAH is, and since HOU still doesn't have any nonstop service from CLE.

DAL is not as far south as HOU is for connections between CLE and Southern California, but Southwest could also provide easier access to Southern California by adding nonstop service from CLE to LAX and SAN and extra nonstops from CLE to LAS, PHX, and DEN. It appears that there might be enough demand for Southwest to do add at least a 2nd nonstop to LAS from CLE and even possibly a 3rd nonstop to LAS from CLE since there are 180,000 passengers a year who travel between CLE and LAS, and since there are currently only 3 daily nonstops to LAS from CLE (1 on Southwest, 1 on Frontier, and 1 in Spirit). Southwest would also be able to provide easier connections to and from California from CLE if it added additional nonstop flights to LAS from CLE.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:25 pm

It will be interesting to see what WN does. According to last week's earnings conference call, they are getting some 737 deliveries in the 4th quarter that they had not been expecting, so there will be some schedule changes sooner than their usual extension release at the end of August. The CEO said, however, that they will use this (mainly? he didn't actually say that) to add back some routes which they didn't really want to cut at the end of summer. In any case next year they are getting a slug of new capacity, so maybe CLE will see another route or two added for the summer.

How much of the decrease in CLE-IAH traffic from the CO days is economic (a slow up in Ohio's fracking business) and how much is from UA forcing connecting traffic through ORD and DEN? I suspect WN could generate more Houston traffic than UA chooses to these days.
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:56 am

Given all the southward int'l connections from HOU, I agree--its a much smarter move for WN than a CLE-DAL route.

Just curious---as DAL is their home/hub, why are all the int'l flights out of HOU instead of DAL? Is this a legacy of the Wright Amendment and HOU had all these flights but Wright was still in place? Or is HOU a better airport (FIS, runways, gates, etc.) than DAL?
 
cledaybuck
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:12 am

greenair727 wrote:
Given all the southward int'l connections from HOU, I agree--its a much smarter move for WN than a CLE-DAL route.

Just curious---as DAL is their home/hub, why are all the int'l flights out of HOU instead of DAL? Is this a legacy of the Wright Amendment and HOU had all these flights but Wright was still in place? Or is HOU a better airport (FIS, runways, gates, etc.) than DAL?
They are not allowed to do international out of DAL per the five party agreement.
 
jplatts
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:52 am

cledaybuck wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
Given all the southward int'l connections from HOU, I agree--its a much smarter move for WN than a CLE-DAL route.

Just curious---as DAL is their home/hub, why are all the int'l flights out of HOU instead of DAL? Is this a legacy of the Wright Amendment and HOU had all these flights but Wright was still in place? Or is HOU a better airport (FIS, runways, gates, etc.) than DAL?
They are not allowed to do international out of DAL per the five party agreement.


In addition to the 5-party agreement, the Section 3 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 prohibits nonstop international passenger air service out of DAL, and the terminal and gates at Dallas Love Field was designed to be used solely for domestic flights.
 
masseybrown
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:16 pm

From Crain's Cleveland: "In the coming months, Frontier plans to offer connections in more than a half-dozen cities, including Austin, Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Orlando, spokesman Richard Oliver said."

This must mean that Frontier plans to open a few new routes. They don't currently operate much that could provide a decent connecting opportunity.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:21 pm

masseybrown wrote:
From Crain's Cleveland: "In the coming months, Frontier plans to offer connections in more than a half-dozen cities, including Austin, Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Orlando, spokesman Richard Oliver said."

This must mean that Frontier plans to open a few new routes. They don't currently operate much that could provide a decent connecting opportunity.


I really fail to see where the planes are for all this expansion.
ATL BWI BOS CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DTW FLL RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP BNA EWR HVN MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD
 
greenair727
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:25 pm

Perhaps just schedule tweaks?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:29 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Perhaps just schedule tweaks?


Check out the OAG thread, F9 did not make enough schedule adjustments/tweaks to add all the routes they did (21 cities and 85 routes to be precise), and if what is said above is true about new routes and connections then there must be something I am missing...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ine-giants
ATL BWI BOS CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DTW FLL RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP BNA EWR HVN MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD

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