greenair727
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:09 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
It will be interesting to see what affect WW and FI will have on CLE and possible TATL routes, and at this point, it is likely too early to tell.


I personally do 3-4 TATL per year from CLE. I plan to do 100% of these on FI come next May if its to a city they serve in Europe. Right now UA has had the best schedules (and fares are the same on AA or DL), but I would happily drop UA in favor of FI or a better alternative. The only complexity here would be FI's schedule as with only 5x/week, it Iimits flexibility---so if I really need to be somewhere on a day that FI cannot serve, I would have to fly WW or someone else.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4872
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:33 am

A few hours time may make me eat these numbers, but here's why I think Southwest will add a route of two in the morning:

Month Flts Emplanements
7/14 ,,,,,398 .. 48.1K
7/15 .....469 .. 51.9K
7/16 .....544 .. 59.4K
7/17 .....596 .. 70.0K

596 flights per month is slightly less than 4 flights per day per gate, inefficient by WN standards.
 
greenair727
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:19 pm

Massey--your insight was correct. Orlando and Ft. Myers now appear on the WN route map for CLE.
 
swacle
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:41 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:43 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Massey--your insight was correct. Orlando and Ft. Myers now appear on the WN route map for CLE.

Those are not new for WN in CLE, unfortunatley. The RSW service runs sat/sun or sat only from January to April, the MCO is Saturday only starting in April.
Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
 
greenair727
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:45 pm

^oh....thanks. I never looked at WN's route map before--so I just noticed them now and compared them to the list of WN's 9 CLE cities---that's why they stood out to me. I would have like to see SAN and MCI, but, alas, no....
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4872
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:13 pm

masseybrown wrote:
A few hours time may make me eat these numbers,


munch, munch, munch ... numbers, numbers ... munch, munch ...
 
greenair727
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:10 am

Not air service related, but a fun story from the BBC, based at Hopkins:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/fbf5 ... 1f1ee91eca
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4872
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:27 pm

Burke traffic for the first seven months:
2016 - 4,425
2017 - 5.682 up 28.4%
 
greenair727
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:21 pm

^being up 28% sounds good. that can't be all operations, which are like 60-70,000 per year. Are those air taxi numbers?
 
swacle
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:41 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:27 am

greenair727 wrote:
^being up 28% sounds good. that can't be all operations, which are like 60-70,000 per year. Are those air taxi numbers?


I believe that is enplanements for Ultimate.
Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4872
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:45 am

swacle wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
^being up 28% sounds good. that can't be all operations, which are like 60-70,000 per year. Are those air taxi numbers?


I believe that is enplanements for Ultimate.


Correct. Ultimate's l/f for July at BKL was 68.4%. At LUK it was 55.4%, mostly because of a 33% load on the Atlanta flights. I hope their terrible schedule (and results) with BKL-MMU hasn't spoiled their appetite for more.
 
jplatts
Posts: 715
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:20 pm

Here is what an significantly expanded SWA operation at CLE could look like in the future if Southwest is able to add CLE-LGA nonstop service and CLE-EWR nonstop service and if Southwest significantly expands CLE:
Image

On the above map, existing SWA nonstop routes out of CLE (plus the CLE-MKE SWA nonstop service that will be starting tomorrow) is shown in red, possible new nonstop service out of CLE on SWA to new destinations west of CLE are shown in purple, possible new nonstop service out of CLE on SWA to destinations in the Florida peninsula is shown in green, and possible new nonstop service out of CLE to the Northeastern U.S. and to DCA is shown in teal.

I know that Southwest will not serve all of these destinations nonstop from CLE anytime soon, but Southwest does have opportunities to significantly expand at CLE if it is able to add nonstops from CLE to LGA and EWR. If Southwest adds nonstop service from CLE to LGA, EWR, IND, CVG, SDF, MEM, BHM, and MSY, Southwest would be able to connect passengers going to NYC from IND, CVG, SDF, MEM, BHM, and MSY through CLE in addition to providing local CLE-area travelers with access to NYC.

If Southwest is able to add CLE-LGA and CLE-EWR nonstop service and if Southwest does significantly expand its CLE operation, the benefits of such a significant expansion would include the following:
  • Easier access to NYC from CLE and other markets that Southwest serves nonstop from CLE
  • Southwest would be able to connect travelers going to destinations in the Northeastern U.S. through CLE instead of MDW from destinations in the Midwestern U.S, the Southeastern U.S., and the
    Western U.S., and CLE would be a better connecting point than MDW is for some of these connections if Southwest served LGA, EWR, and other Northeastern destinations nonstop from CLE
  • A significantly expanded SWA operation at CLE would still be much smaller than SWA's MDW operation, and CLE would likely be easier to navigate through than MDW would be if the significantly expanded SWA operation out of CLE is out of gates that are adjacent to each other
  • More opportunities for Southwest Airlines in Northeast Ohio, other SWA markets in the Midwest, the Northeastern U.S., the Southeastern U.S., and the Western U.S.

While I do not expect SWA to undergo a significant expansion at CLE in the near future, could Southwest Airlines expand CLE to be a much larger station that it is today (along the lines of something similar to what is shown on the map above)?
 
lakeeffect
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:41 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:54 pm

I was actually surprised to see that Southwest didn’t add anything new to CLE with the summer extension, especially considering the airport hinted new service by Southwest was to be announced in the fall.

As for Southwest expanding at CLE, they’ve grown nicely the past two years, but the growth seems to be very gradual.

If Southwest wanted a large CLE operation they could have easily moved the entire FL/WN operation at CAK over to CLE at the time of the hub closure and they chose not to. Instead CAK was closed and DEN and ATL were eventually moved to CLE, with all the other routes gone from NE Ohio.

WN’s new CLE-MKE route will be a good test for WN at CLE and whether other short to medium haul routes could work.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 605
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:25 pm

WN has shown time and time again that they have modest interest in expanding in CLE at best. Haven’t counted in a while but I’d bet that the number of flights today is same as when the station opened. Sad to say I’ve come to conclusion there’s a lot more wishful thinking than reality. It Would be just as fruitful to contemplate when AA will expand greatly in CLE— approximately never I’d say.
 
greenair727
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:17 pm

jplatts has a lot of enthusiasm for WN, based on his posts. But I'd rather see AA or DL expand its network in CLE as that would give us better support for TATL, Latin American, and TransPac (eventually) routes, than would WN....
 
NichCage
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:03 pm

Is United the largest airline at CLE still? Despite dehubbing, they seem to be the biggest airline there still.
 
SgtBarone
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:20 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:23 pm

Yes, United is still the largest carrier at Hopkins with around 50 daily departures.
AGP BCN BNA CLE CLT DEN FLG FRA IAD LAX MAD MCI MDW MUC PHX RSW SJU TPA
 
topbanana
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:12 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:15 pm

ncflyer wrote:
WN has shown time and time again that they have modest interest in expanding in CLE at best. Haven’t counted in a while but I’d bet that the number of flights today is same as when the station opened. Sad to say I’ve come to conclusion there’s a lot more wishful thinking than reality. It Would be just as fruitful to contemplate when AA will expand greatly in CLE— approximately never I’d say.


Southwest opened CLE with 10 daily flights. 6 to Chicago Midway and 4 to Saint Louis.
Top Banana in the West. Yes.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 605
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:22 pm

Interesting. Any idea what their peak was— or are we there now? I seem to remember fewer cities but more frequencies years back.
 
lakeeffect
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:41 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:45 am

ncflyer wrote:
Interesting. Any idea what their peak was— or are we there now? I seem to remember fewer cities but more frequencies years back.


It depends on how you define peak. Southwest was up to about 21 daily summer departures from 2004-2007 at CLE. However, load factors during that time were often in the 50% and 60% range. Southwest is now back to a similar daily departure count at CLE, but with load factors in the mid to upper 80s. So in terms of peak passenger count, that’s been occurring for over a year now for Southwest at CLE by a large margin, especially when you factor in size of airplane flown then and now. However, it’s taken WN over a decade to finally get back to its peak departure count seen in the early to mid 2000s.
 
swacle
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:41 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:39 am

ncflyer wrote:
Interesting. Any idea what their peak was— or are we there now? I seem to remember fewer cities but more frequencies years back.


"Peak" is now, 20 departures to 9 daily destinations (BWI, ATL, BNA, MDW, STL, MKE, DEN, LAS, PHX) adding RSW and MCO weekend service in early 2018 and jumping to 22 departures to the same 9 daily + Saturday MCO for the summer 2018 peak schedule. Previous peak was 2000-2001 pre 9/11 at 22 departures, but as stated average loads were mid 60% at that time, plus average plane size was significantly smaller (122 seat -200 And-500, 137 seat -300 And-700, now 143 seat -700 And 175 seat 73H and 7M8). In 2001, destinations served were MDW, STL, BNA, and BWI with Saturday LAS.
Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4872
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:05 pm

It's going to be tough for CLE to show much growth next summer if nobody adds any capacity. When this past summer was running 85% loads airport-wide, that means everybody was full on the most popular travel days. The Icelanders will be adding about 1,800 seats a week, but that's not even a 2% increase to capacity. 5% growth may be the most possible within current capacity, but that's only about 20-25,000 pax a month.
 
lakeeffect
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:41 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:34 pm

masseybrown wrote:
It's going to be tough for CLE to show much growth next summer if nobody adds any capacity. When this past summer was running 85% loads airport-wide, that means everybody was full on the most popular travel days. The Icelanders will be adding about 1,800 seats a week, but that's not even a 2% increase to capacity. 5% growth may be the most possible within current capacity, but that's only about 20-25,000 pax a month.


It will be tough for sure unless there are some new announcements. Frontier’s summer 2018 schedule from CLE looks much lighter than 2017, so that alone is going to cause passenger declines at CLE. What is interesting about F9’s summer schedule at CLE is that the nonstop CLE-PDX only runs April-June. In July the route is dropped to make CLE-SEA a daily flight (up from 4x weekly). It doesn’t make sense to only run PDX for 3 months in early summer?
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4872
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:35 pm

CLE has issued an RFQ for artists to propose attention-getting public art at its gas station/restaurant complex at Brookpark Road and Rocky River Drive. Quoting from the RFQ, "The Department is looking for artists whose work will awe patrons or passersby with a statue or exhibit that reflects the theme 'Taking Flight'."

They provided no guidance on what would be an acceptable cost for the project. It'll be fun to see what they come up with.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1130
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:06 pm

masseybrown wrote:
CLE has issued an RFQ for artists to propose attention-getting public art at its gas station/restaurant complex at Brookpark Road and Rocky River Drive. Quoting from the RFQ, "The Department is looking for artists whose work will awe patrons or passersby with a statue or exhibit that reflects the theme 'Taking Flight'."

They provided no guidance on what would be an acceptable cost for the project. It'll be fun to see what they come up with.


Who comes up with this stuff? How about paying down debt or something with an ROI like LED lighting in the facility? Maybe it's for the car rental pax to help them forget the rental facility is so far away from the terminal. I sure hope it's paid for by some grant.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4872
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:37 pm

There have been posted shots of the 787 that took the Brown's fans to London. Here's the A340-600 that took the team.

http://www.opshots.net/gallery2/photos_ ... 80_800.jpg

Oops ... I just noticed the copyright, so I switched the photo to a url.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 605
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:53 pm

I wonder if we are at the point where our stinky airport (which is a literal statement given the mildew stench in spots and the ventilation in the closets they call bathrooms) is going to put an upper limit on growth. MCI taxpayers just voted a new airport. Along with PIT and I believe CMH, and already modern airports at places like IND CVG—- CLE in different league from other airports in Midwest of similar size. Yeah I know shiny floors don’t bring new flights but what’s it say about how the airport has been run for decades.



masseybrown wrote:
It's going to be tough for CLE to show much growth next summer if nobody adds any capacity. When this past summer was running 85% loads airport-wide, that means everybody was full on the most popular travel days. The Icelanders will be adding about 1,800 seats a week, but that's not even a 2% increase to capacity. 5% growth may be the most possible within current capacity, but that's only about 20-25,000 pax a month.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4872
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:12 pm

I don't think CLE needs to spend $1-2 billion on a new terminal. In my dreams, Concourse D will be reconfigured for 20 narrow body gates and connected to the main terminal. Concourse B will be rebuilt as the new FIS plus a few more gates if the demand is there. And A will get a few more windows. Concourse C could bump-out the low-numbered holding pens to get people out of the main walkways. Result: roomier overall, more gates, new FIS for a couple hundred million. Why spend more?
 
SgtBarone
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:20 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:08 pm

Looks like Allegiant is preparing to make Gate A3 its home as opposed to using common-use gates. This morning I saw fresh blue paint, a new counter, and signage above the gate and on the jet bridge.

Also, the new BBQ eatery will be in the banjo on Concourse C, meaning that the banjo will be fully leased once again.
AGP BCN BNA CLE CLT DEN FLG FRA IAD LAX MAD MCI MDW MUC PHX RSW SJU TPA
 
ncflyer
Posts: 605
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:45 pm

I agree Massey, doesn't need to be a 100% rebuild, some airports such as BDL very cleverly remade themselves in place. FLL too has done a very nice job of this (in addition to building some new terminals). Heck even CAK did a nice job with their newer little gate addition, which has a far more modern feel and more decent restrooms than any inch of CLE, including D.

HOwever to me a couple priorities would be moving the rental car lot back to walking distance, from its current home in Toledo, gutting the Sheraton, which is such a cruel sight for visitors from out of town to see upon their automobile arrival to the airport, and rebuilding (not merely renovating) 3/4 of the bathrooms, which are so shabby and hopeless.

If CLE no longer had rental car buses then maybe they could do away with that joke of a "transit center" for offsite parkers. Again such an embarrassment and a humongous source of dissatisfaction judging by the Plain Dealer

Maybe some of the Sheraton footprint could be used for rental cars. At one point I remember a project to redo the facade of the Sheraton, not sure what happened to that. If a new hotel were more vertical, it would free up land for other uses.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4872
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:20 pm

A hotel/parking garage project would be a good idea - maybe for the Port Authority, not the airport to fund. I think it would take a new multistory garage in order to bring the rental cars back on premises; then put the hotel on top? I wonder how high they could go before the FAA complained - higher than the Sheraton, I guess.

Ok, so new thought ... AA has a couple of times a day when four planes arrive and depart together - all to and from their various hubs. I wonder whether adding a couple of 50seaters to the mix to and from places like ALB and RIC could pay off? Those are former CLE destinations that used to see 3 flights a day by CO and still could support at least one with O&D. Any connecting traffic would be a bonus. (I keep thinking of ways AA could do more in CLE, tempered by the knowledge they keep cutting existing p2p routes at PIT which offers the same possibilities.)
 
SgtBarone
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:20 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:00 pm

Massey, couldn't agree more with your last point. I'm still waiting for AA and even UA to get more creative with some P2P routes using RJ's. A few destinations off the top of my head I believe could support at least once daily RJ service could be ALB, MCI, PVD, and possibly RIC.
AGP BCN BNA CLE CLT DEN FLG FRA IAD LAX MAD MCI MDW MUC PHX RSW SJU TPA
 
ncflyer
Posts: 605
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:26 pm

Yes I don't understand this one either. I know DL tried with a lousy schedule but IND is another one.

Frontier aside, I think once a day routes are tough. I fly to BDL a lot, and seldom does DL's one flight a day work out for me, so I'm left flying through BWI, the most reliable east coast hub in my opinion. (and then DL becomes too expensive one way only).

This is where it is unfortunate we are tied to UA rather than DL. DL seems to have a much greater willingness to take chances on such routes. Outside of CLE to DCA, BOS, LGA, MKE, FLL, MCO, RSW, UA does very little flying outside of its mega hubs, anywhere in the country, let alone in CLE. AA has had such low levels in CLE for years and years and years, that one is beyond hope unfortunately, we went years as an Eaagle only station as I'm sure you remember. . . .
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4872
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:42 pm

JetBlue is posting their summer schedule Sunday. CLE loads last summer were 89% for June and 88.6% for July.
 
greenair727
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:44 pm

^You think they'll add more frequencies or add JFK?
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4872
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:13 pm

If the loads had been in the 90's, yes ... Now it's a coin toss. They are sounding pessimistic about the E190s' utility again.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 605
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:40 pm

For some reason B6 doesn't seem to want to serve the midwestish territory from JFK. JFK is excellent to FL, pretty excellent Chicago and west and Buffalo and east (until you get too close to NYC), but PIT/CLE/DTW/BNA nothing. No JFK to recently announced MSP either. Curiously DFW is not served from JFK but Austin and Houston are.

Must be tied to E190 utilization or something. . . . who knows.

Also interesting that B6 now up to 6x per day to PIT, though they aren't the only carrier on that route. A lot of capacity to that city.
 
User avatar
CLEguy
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:52 pm

As much as I'm jealous of our regional competitors' airports and I'd love to see CLE build a new terminal or significantly rebuild it's existing terminal, it is simply not going to happen any time soon. There are a number of factors involved, in my opinion, and these include: 1) Finances-neither the city nor the region has the financial resources (not to mention the political will/ability) to undertake a massive infrastructure project like rebuilding Hopkins. 2) Demographics-the NE Ohio region is at best stagnant, at worst, still slowly contracting, from a population and economic growth perspective. Unless this changes significantly, there will be little demand for significantly increased air traffic from CLE. 3) Airline Needs-unless one of the low-cost carriers sets up a much larger operation in CLE or AS decides to create a new hub, there is no airline on the horizon that will need expanded airport facilities that the current infrastructure, although less-than-ideal from an aesthetic and passenger comfort perspective, cannot handle. 4) Current unused/underutilized capacity-following up on #3 above, and as others have noted, if there truly were a need for more capacity, concourse D could be brought out of mothballs and renovated and eventually connected to the main terminal directly. Further, there are still several unused and common use gates available for incremental expansion of current or future airline tenants. Remember, the terminal before D had a capacity of about 14 million passengers per year which was never reached even at the peak of the CO hub in 1999 or so. If you add a remodeled D to the mix, that adds probably another 3-4 million passengers. So there is plenty of capacity in the foreseeable future.

Of course, there can continue to be improvements made, including to the FIS (although it certainly does its job, again, based on current and future demand), to restrooms, to parking, to the overall cleanliness of the place, to customer service, and other areas, but for a 40+ year old terminal on a 92 year old airfield, CLE is certainly not the worst airport I've seen. Give the current airport management (I hope the current Director sticks around for a bit), the best I've ever seen, a chance to continue to make those incremental improvements that don't cost a fortune.

P.S. Not sure what's so horrible about the Sheraton. It's certainly not pretty, but I don't find it offensive in any way. As they say, "de gustibus non est disputandum."
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4872
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:53 pm

DL seems to like CLE-JFK, they are up to 4 dailies; but JFK has slots and maybe B6 doesn't want to use a scarce resource for a relatively small and competitive route. Their int'l code-sharing can all take place in BOS. They could add another CLE-FLL as it becomes more of a business route, since they shifted the current departure to morning. Whether they do it this time, who knows? I kind of doubt it. Their transcon Mint product seems to be absorbing all their attention lately; it's a yield booster..
 
User avatar
flymco753
Posts: 1682
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:09 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:07 pm

masseybrown wrote:
DL seems to like CLE-JFK, they are up to 4 dailies; but JFK has slots and maybe B6 doesn't want to use a scarce resource for a relatively small and competitive route. Their int'l code-sharing can all take place in BOS. They could add another CLE-FLL as it becomes more of a business route, since they shifted the current departure to morning. Whether they do it this time, who knows? I kind of doubt it. Their transcon Mint product seems to be absorbing all their attention lately; it's a yield booster..
Just by doing some math and looking at the revenue from last year, CLE-FLL doesn't look spectacular for B6 as it does peer carriers, I see the same trend with DTW and a few other neighboring stations as well. I think the reason they switched FLL to mornings is to serve both your leisure and business markets and offer more connections, they most likely did this to see if they can perform better instead of having to withdrawal.
Whether you're here on business, returning home, or visiting our world class attractions, welcome to Orlando and Central Florida...
 
ncflyer
Posts: 605
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:57 pm

CLEguy, nice post, nice arguments. So much of what you say could be applied EXACTLY to PIT, yet somehow that region is finding a way to redo their 25 year old airport, which isn't as bad as ours IMHO. (Yeah I know Pittsburghers make it seem like their city is the hottest thing since Austin, but like CLE that region faces some tough demographic challenges also).

The one challenge CLE is going to face at some point is what to do with D, I'm sure they could strike some sort of deal with UA to repurpose it before the lease payments expire. CVG is an example of an airport that really did a nice job of getting rid of its unneeded capacity. It's gotta be costing CLE money to maintain an empty building that may or may not be used again-- let alone the opportunity cost for putting that land to a different use.

As for the Sheraton, personal opinion obviously but to me it represents the worst of brutalist architecture, and furthermore Sheraton is such a stale chain. It reeks of 1970s when driving in to the airport.
 
User avatar
flyPIT
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:21 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:14 am

CLEguy wrote:
As much as I'm jealous of our regional competitors' airports and I'd love to see CLE build a new terminal or significantly rebuild it's existing terminal, it is simply not going to happen any time soon. There are a number of factors involved, in my opinion, and these include: 1) Finances-neither the city nor the region has the financial resources (not to mention the political will/ability) to undertake a massive infrastructure project like rebuilding Hopkins.

The financing would not come from the city or region and therefore by extension the contracting population and economic base but rather bonds that would be repaid by the airport via its landing fees, gate leases, PFCs, etc. Not one cent should come from the local taxpayers. That's how its gonna happen in MCI and PIT. This in turn applies to some of your other points:


CLEguy wrote:
2) Demographics-the NE Ohio region is at best stagnant, at worst, still slowly contracting, from a population and economic growth perspective. Unless this changes significantly, there will be little demand for significantly increased air traffic from CLE

Be that as it may, CLE today is one of the fastest growing airports in the US. Their revenues should be increasing so now is a time to undertake such a transformation. But as an outsider it seems like both CLE and the Cleveland region lack long term vision and planning. The current PIT isn't a bad airport by any means but I think they want an ultra-modern facility as part of the region's long term strategy to continue its reinvention and attract new investment.





On a somewhat related note, why did they even build D? Seems like a dog legged extension of B southwestward and parallel to C would have been more streamlined, simple, and could have included a new FIS between B and C right up against the main terminal. Post hub everything could have been accommodated on B & C and A demolished.
FLYi
 
SgtBarone
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:20 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:47 am

Concourse D was built in 1999 by Continental, for Continental (hence why United has to pay the city over $1 million a month through 2027 for the construction costs). A pure regional jet concourse for Continental's mainly regional hub.
Last edited by SgtBarone on Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
AGP BCN BNA CLE CLT DEN FLG FRA IAD LAX MAD MCI MDW MUC PHX RSW SJU TPA
 
SgtBarone
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:20 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:48 am

.
AGP BCN BNA CLE CLT DEN FLG FRA IAD LAX MAD MCI MDW MUC PHX RSW SJU TPA
 
User avatar
flyPIT
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:21 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:14 am

SgtBarone wrote:
Concourse D was built in 1999 by Continental, for Continental (hence why United has to pay the city over $1 million a month through 2027 for the construction costs). A pure regional jet concourse for Continental's mainly regional hub.


If that was meant for my post (the quote function works great btw), yes I know "why" the expansion was needed lol. My point was why did they do it "where" they did as opposed to something more logical such as what I suggested? But I think most people got the gist of what I was saying.
FLYi
 
User avatar
CLEguy
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:13 pm

flyPIT wrote:
[If that was meant for my post (the quote function works great btw), yes I know "why" the expansion was needed lol. My point was why did they do it "where" they did as opposed to something more logical such as what I suggested? But I think most people got the gist of what I was saying.


I don't think your original post was very clear, so thank you for the clarification. To answer your specific question, the location of what eventually became Concourse D was in the original master plan for the terminal way back in the early 1970's. I suppose building out B would have created some difficulties with the taxiway/runway system.
 
lakeeffect
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:41 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:47 pm

I didn’t realize how few flights CLE had to MCO compared to other airports in the region. For example, next March during spring break (ignoring Saturday peak day flights), CLE has just 3 daily flights to MCO, one each on United, Frontier, and Spirit.

By comparison:
PIT has 6 daily; 4 on Southwest, 1 on Frontier, and 1 on Spirit.
CMH has 6 daily; 4 on Southwest, 1 on Frontier, 1 on Spirit.
IND has 6 daily; 4 on Southwest, 1 on Delta, 1 on Frontier.
CVG has 4 daily; 3 on Delta and 1 on Frontier.

Substituting LCK for CMH, all airports have Allegiant service to SFB. CVG and IND have daily service. LCK is 5x weekly, PIT is 4x weekly, and CLE is the lowest at 3x weekly.

I’m sure the spring 2018 schedules are probably close to being set by now, but you’d have to wonder if WN or B6 would be eyeing CLE-MCO for daily (at least seasonally) service?
 
phluser
Posts: 462
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:49 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:08 pm

lakeeffect wrote:
I didn’t realize how few flights CLE had to MCO compared to other airports in the region. For example, next March during spring break (ignoring Saturday peak day flights), CLE has just 3 daily flights to MCO, one each on United, Frontier, and Spirit.

By comparison:
PIT has 6 daily; 4 on Southwest, 1 on Frontier, and 1 on Spirit.
CMH has 6 daily; 4 on Southwest, 1 on Frontier, 1 on Spirit.
IND has 6 daily; 4 on Southwest, 1 on Delta, 1 on Frontier.
CVG has 4 daily; 3 on Delta and 1 on Frontier.

Substituting LCK for CMH, all airports have Allegiant service to SFB. CVG and IND have daily service. LCK is 5x weekly, PIT is 4x weekly, and CLE is the lowest at 3x weekly.

I’m sure the spring 2018 schedules are probably close to being set by now, but you’d have to wonder if WN or B6 would be eyeing CLE-MCO for daily (at least seasonally) service?


I commented on that three months ago.
phluser wrote:
flyCMH wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
I know there's Cleveland Clinic Florida. But outside of that, and any connections in MIA to Latin America, is any of the CLE-Florida travel business or is it all mostly leisure? With so much capacity, it should enable some business links.


I would imagine convention traffic is pretty robust. Orlando and Miami constantly rank high in biggest convention cities, and Cleveland is rapidly rising as a convention destination as well.


That's why I'm somewhat surprised that only F9 and NK offer CLE-MCO daily on weekdays, when UA cuts to less than daily, during the slow season, i.e. October. Likely there is still convention and business traffic into/out of Orlando from Northeast Ohio even on a Tuesday in October. I'm surprised WN hasn't started daily year-round service on CLE-MCO, but maybe it will happen, as it does PIT-MCO, CMH-MCO and PHL-MCO (which has a lot of competition).


Anyways, F9 used to service more steadily at 2x daily, but at 1x daily, it seems like it's willing to give up it's ULCC grip over CLE. I did see fares out in mid August incredibly dirt cheap out of PIT & CLE to MCO and likely F9 suffered, relative to eastern cities of BWI, PHL, etc. on the same ULCCs. I've wondered if NK and F9 could data mine the public school starts/ends from markets and adjust MCO capacity based on it, as in markets like NJ/eastern PA, many schools start after Labor Day, but the same is not the case in other areas.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 1520
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:46 pm

lakeeffect wrote:
I didn’t realize how few flights CLE had to MCO compared to other airports in the region. For example, next March during spring break (ignoring Saturday peak day flights), CLE has just 3 daily flights to MCO, one each on United, Frontier, and Spirit.

By comparison:
PIT has 6 daily; 4 on Southwest, 1 on Frontier, and 1 on Spirit.
CMH has 6 daily; 4 on Southwest, 1 on Frontier, 1 on Spirit.
IND has 6 daily; 4 on Southwest, 1 on Delta, 1 on Frontier.
CVG has 4 daily; 3 on Delta and 1 on Frontier.

Substituting LCK for CMH, all airports have Allegiant service to SFB. CVG and IND have daily service. LCK is 5x weekly, PIT is 4x weekly, and CLE is the lowest at 3x weekly.

I’m sure the spring 2018 schedules are probably close to being set by now, but you’d have to wonder if WN or B6 would be eyeing CLE-MCO for daily (at least seasonally) service?


Interesting, CLE seems like a market ripe for more service to Orlando
Q1 2017 (Note this is all of Q1 not just march)
CVG-MCO-339 PDEW, avg fare-162, market share 59% DL, 38% F9
CMH-MCO-520 PDEW, avg fare-165, market share 82% WN
CLE-MCO-569 PDEW, avg fare-141, market share 34% F9, 20% NK
IND-MCO-580 PDEW, avg fare-168, market share 73% WN
PIT-MCO-607 PDEW, avg fare-158, market share 79% WN

March 2017 LF data
CVG-MCO/SFB--Departures--162--Seats--28,145--LF--89.49%
CMH/LCK-MCO/SFB--Departures--162--Seats--23,526--LF--94.09%
CLE-MCO/SFB--Departures--140--Seats--26,194--LF--91.47%
IND-MCO/SFB--Departures--201--Seats--29,161--LF--92.56%
PIT-MCO/SFB--Departures--188--Seats-28,529--LF--87.19%

Interesting, CLE seems like a market ripe for more service to Orlando, but I am especially surprised that WN hasn't had a go at it, I can't think of any reason why they couldn't make it work...
'17:ADD ATL AMS BCN BWI BOS CDG CMN CLT MDW ORD CVG DFW DAL DAB DEN DKR DTW DXB ENU FLL FCO RSW GNV BDL HNL IAH IND MCI LAS LAX LGW LHR LOS SDF MEM MIA MKE MSP MUC BNA EWR MSY JFK LGA MCO SFB ORY PHX PHL PVD RDU RAP RIC SLC STL CPS PIE SEA TPA DCA IAD ZRH
 
lakeeffect
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:41 pm

Re: What's Going In CLE - Part 14

Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:49 am

Midwestindy wrote:

Interesting, CLE seems like a market ripe for more service to Orlando, but I am especially surprised that WN hasn't had a go at it, I can't think of any reason why they couldn't make it work...


It’s comical to think that during March, CLE has more daily flights to MKE than MCO!

It’s hard to believe WN isn’t at least seasonally daily on this one. Also, with Allegiant pulling out of YNG that’s going to push some nominal extra demand to Florida from CLE and PIT this season.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos