What's Going In CLE - Part 14

phluser · Mon May 01, 2017 10:39 pm

masseybrown wrote:
lakeeffect wrote:
NK's loads from CLE in January were the worst since they started at 72%. NK's loads from CAK were even worse at 66%. I wonder if NK is cannibalizing themselves.

Looks that way. CLE down about 6,000 pax; CAK up (from nothing) to about 10,000. Net gain 4,000. Was it worth it?

January is a subpar travel month so it might be a tough month to base on analysis. Florida travel picks up by end of February and gets a big March boost with daylight savings and Spring Break.

Looking at the LFs, CLE-LAX (an east-west route) had decent LFs, while NK's CLE-TPA/RSW (north-south) struggled the most in January.

It's interesting that NK's CLE-TPA was more than 10% lower in LF than it's TPA-CLE's load factor, while F9 had high LFs on the same CLE-TPA flight service.

Was the CLE-TPA NK flight operated too late in the day or early? It's still surprising how F9 did much better than NK on the same CLE-TPA pair, unless there is an easy explanation like the NK flight was inconveniently timed.

All things equal, F9's mileage program is a little easier to understand and it's easier accumulate miles for a free one-way flight (10,000 miles which is 5-6 Florida roundtrips). There is a difference in Stretch seating vs. Big Front Seat, but the two are pretty much in experience for a regular seat, even though F9 might seem like it's a notch higher overall.

swacle · Wed May 03, 2017 11:12 pm

CLEguy wrote:
Update on AA's move to C. It looks like they should be there by May 15, and they're only taking 5 gates (C3, 5, 7, 9, 11). Ticket counter and baggage area will remain at the north end of the terminal for the time being.

Gates do look good but if they are going to move in 12 days they better get to hanging some jet bridges. Paint going down on C5 and 7 today but not a single jet bridges up yet.

masseybrown · Thu May 04, 2017 1:52 pm

The airport says they will add cargo numbers to their periodic passenger data reports. Great idea - I'm looking forward to it.

masseybrown · Thu May 04, 2017 6:05 pm

lakeeffect wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
^Interesting, thanks. The JFK increase may well be the entry of B6 and people flying CLE-JFK via BOS. Interesting to me is the overall stagnancy of Cleveland-NYC, given both economies have picked up between 2013 and 2016, especially NYC's.

JFK 69 186 170.19%
LGA 625 635 1.49%
EWR 339 301 -11.25%
ISP 16 13 -15.17%
HPN 6 5 -21.43%

TOTAL 1055 1140 +8.06%

The NYC market is one of the largest from CLE, so the % change isn't that high even though the raw volume increase is about 85 pax per day. Price sensitivity to NYC is going to be among leisure travelers and fares still remain relatively high in this market. A LCC or ULCC carrier to NYC from CLE would have a huge effect of turning car trips to plane trips. With slot restrictions gone from EWR, perhaps F9 or NK would give this a shot.

After listening to the JetBlue earnings conference call, I think B6 might be the most likely to introduce CLE-NYC lower cost flights. They are planning an 8% capacity build in the second half of the year with the delivery of 11 new A321s. The trickle-down effect of the new high-capacity planes will no doubt produce some excess E190 low-capacity hours. They can't do much at JFK or LGA because of slots, but they specifically want to improve their utilization of EWR. There is no LCC/ULCC competition in CLE-NYC so B6 could significantly stimulate the market, undercut UA's fare, and still charge a fare that would produce the yield needed to support E190 CASM. Start with 2 flights a day, maybe? It worked for them in CLE-BOS, a smaller market; plus they could improve their utilization of the CLE station at the same time.

masseybrown · Fri May 05, 2017 4:40 pm

CLE posted that they had reps attending "Routes Europe 2017" which was held in Belfast during the last week of April. It's good to show the flag, whether or not there is any immediate payoff.

cle757 · Fri May 05, 2017 7:18 pm

The city refused to re-build the FIS for Continental when they had LHR and CDG, why would they do it now?

CLEguy · Sat May 06, 2017 2:17 pm

cle757 wrote:
The city refused to re-build the FIS for Continental when they had LHR and CDG, why would they do it now?

It's kind of like the "chicken or the egg" for CLE. The current FIS with 3 swing gates is certainly adequate for current traffic, if not ideal from a customer service perspective. CO/UA/F9 made it work, even when there were multiple international arrivals at times (LON/CDG/CUN), and 777 diversions (including PVG at least once). There is no indication of interest in transatlantic service currently and no clear indication that the current FIS area is a hindrance for any airline wishing to start regular transatlantic service (customers, on the other hand, may not be thrilled with the area, but it does work for current traffic levels--I have used FIS at CLE several times). So I would contend, as much as I'd love to see a new modernized, larger FIS, that CLE is being a wise steward of very limited funds waiting until there is a clear need for a new FIS area. Should a Condor or Wow or Norwegian (or even one of the Big 3 or a foreign flag carrier-only in my dreams) start service and it "takes off" :lol:

then CLE should look at renovating/moving the FIS. Just my 2 cents...

masseybrown · Sat May 06, 2017 5:44 pm

CLEguy wrote:
It's kind of like the "chicken or the egg" for CLE .... There is no indication of interest in transatlantic service currently ... CLE is being a wise steward of very limited funds waiting until there is a clear need for a new FIS area.

As I noted a couple posts above, CLE had reps at the Routes Europe 2017 conference just concluded and CLE did make a bid for WOW service. The airport is certainly interested - John Hogan's title is now Manager, International Air Service Development. The only lack of interest seems to be in organizations like Team NEO and other civic promoters who face what they feel are more pressing needs.

I personally believe an affordable and greatly improved FIS (specifically addressing the logistics of bag claiming and rechecking) could be constructed adjacent to the main baggage room in C Concourse at a price MUCH less than the $30+ million proposed by Ricky Smith. With the ULCC passenger growth at CLE, the airport's current finances aren't as straitened as 2014's dire projections made them seem.

ncflyer · Sat May 06, 2017 5:50 pm

Why in heavens name would cle propose to WOW, and WOW accept, when it already has service a very short drive away. These low cost carriers make it in medium sized markets like PIT or PVD by expanding the cachement area to places as far away as cleveland or Columbus. If this is CLEs strategy for international-- oy!!!

masseybrown · Sat May 06, 2017 5:52 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Why in heavens name would cle propose to WOW, and WOW accept, when it already has service a very short drive away.

CLE's proposal ($400K subsidy) was in competition with PIT's ($800K subsidy); PIT won.

Robert1010 · Sat May 06, 2017 5:54 pm

Not unlikely though, WOW only flies A321's , not that big of aircraft, I could see them doing both !

lakeeffect · Fri May 12, 2017 12:09 pm

From the DOT February stats, CLE traffic was down about 2.3% from last year. CAK was down 3.1% from last Feb. One thing to keep in mind is that this Feb had 3.4% less days than last Feb so these numbers are relatively flat. Nonetheless would have expected increases at both CAK with NK starting and at CLE with G4 starting. I do think that the freakishly warm February hurt Florida ticket sales, which is where most of the extra capacity was added this month.

Just looking at the couple Allegiant outbound flights from CLE at the end of the month, MSY had the best load factor at 84%. AUS came in at 80%. But this is only looking at 4 or 5 flights. It'll be interesting to see what March looks like.

ncflyer · Fri May 12, 2017 2:46 pm

I'm not surprised traffic is flat. No razzmatazz in cleveland airport for ages. Meantime airports like MCI and RDU and IND have a lot more energy for new service. MSY on Spirit is the only decent recent add.

I have to assume no GOP convention will really hurt YOY through summer.

masseybrown · Sun May 14, 2017 5:31 pm

lakeeffect wrote:
From the DOT February stats, CLE traffic was down about 2.3% from last year. CAK was down 3.1% from last Feb. One thing to keep in mind is that this Feb had 3.4% less days than last Feb so these numbers are relatively flat.

It does seem as if CLE has plateaued. The economic recovery and a ULCC-driven increase of a million-plus emplanements may now capped by demographics (population + disposable income). G4 probably won't make much of a difference. There may be room left for an international ULCC to be successful, however,

lakeeffect · Sun May 14, 2017 7:25 pm

masseybrown wrote:
lakeeffect wrote:
From the DOT February stats, CLE traffic was down about 2.3% from last year. CAK was down 3.1% from last Feb. One thing to keep in mind is that this Feb had 3.4% less days than last Feb so these numbers are relatively flat.

It does seem as if CLE has plateaued. The economic recovery and a ULCC-driven increase of a million-plus emplanements may now capped by demographics (population + disposable income). G4 probably won't make much of a difference. There may be room left for an international ULCC to be successful, however,

The pax counts the next few months will certainly be telling. There's actually quite a bit of capacity that was added to CLE this spring and about to be added in the coming weeks.

F9 went to A321 service on several routes a few weeks ago. F9 also starts CLE-IAH and CLE-SAN service next week.
NK starts daily CLE-MSY service next week.
WN starts 2x daily CLE-ATL service in 3 weeks and adds an additional frequency to CLE-STL in 3 weeks.

spinzels · Mon May 15, 2017 4:12 pm

Sorry were these LAX/SFO UA cuts previously announced ? Or just seasonal ? Even with all the long range optimism, the last few months have not been my favorite.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1363101

ncflyer · Mon May 15, 2017 5:19 pm

Those are seasonal. During the summer (and Christmas break) LAX and SFO bump up to 2x per day, have ever since the hub closed. During the rest of the year, and particularly during Florida flying season, those flights go to single daily. I would sure think flight to the hub at SFO could be 2x year round, but then again who the heck am I to know. Incidentally I saw flights from CLE to LAX for $99 one way on United.

lakeeffect · Mon May 15, 2017 6:11 pm

What happens is that UA loads a "placeholder dummy schedule" every time they extend their schedule. The default is 2x daily CLE-SFO/LAX. The reality is that this is only flown 2x daily for the summer season and Christmas. When UA finalizes their schedules, the off season months go back to 1x daily. This has been happening continually since UA pulled the hub at CLE.

Interestingly enough, UA has been very aggressive at price matching the ULCC carriers at CLE. I've seen nonstop CLE-SFO fares drop to below $150 round trip, CLE-LAX at $108 round trip, and even CLE-MCO on UA has been around $65 round trip at times.

fun2fly · Mon May 15, 2017 7:27 pm

lakeeffect wrote:
What happens is that UA loads a "placeholder dummy schedule" every time they extend their schedule. The default is 2x daily CLE-SFO/LAX. The reality is that this is only flown 2x daily for the summer season and Christmas. When UA finalizes their schedules, the off season months go back to 1x daily. This has been happening continually since UA pulled the hub at CLE.

Interestingly enough, UA has been very aggressive at price matching the ULCC carriers at CLE. I've seen nonstop CLE-SFO fares drop to below $150 round trip, CLE-LAX at $108 round trip, and even CLE-MCO on UA has been around $65 round trip at times.

$277 RT CLE>LAX for me in August in 'standard economy' not no frills direct prime time daytime flights both ways. Amazing what competition does!

On the SFO/LAX side, it's hard to imagine UA not keeping one of the evening flights westbound on year round to connect to Australia, etc. Adding a stop and a few hours onto a 20 hour flight will put a lot of pax on CLE>DFW>SYD.

masseybrown · Tue May 16, 2017 1:34 pm

Today's FT (pay site) has a longish article on TATL low cost carriers. The author says 737Max and A321LR will produce 60 new TATL routes by 2019. I guess CLE's name ought to be on at least one of them. He cautions that Norwegian's current profit margin is a slender 2 to 3 percent; that rate won't allow them to survive the next downturn. There's a lot of room to raise prices before the legacy-level is reached, however.

swacle · Tue May 16, 2017 7:55 pm

CLE just posted on Facebook that the AA move happens tonight at midnight. C3, 5, 7, 9 and 11 remain jetway-less, but it looks like AA will use common use Gates C2, 4, and 14 during the transition as well as A1 and 3. It seems like this has been made far more complicated than it needs to be a d confusing for the cuatomer.

fun2fly · Tue May 16, 2017 10:08 pm

swacle wrote:
CLE just posted on Facebook that the AA move happens tonight at midnight. C3, 5, 7, 9 and 11 remain jetway-less, but it looks like AA will use common use Gates C2, 4, and 14 during the transition as well as A1 and 3. It seems like this has been made far more complicated than it needs to be a d confusing for the cuatomer.

What is the logic behind that? It's not like CLE has someone that urgently needs to get into the old AA Concourse A gates. The only thing I can figure is that AA would move the jetways after they move from A to C?

:shakehead:

CLEguy · Wed May 17, 2017 12:12 am

fun2fly wrote:
swacle wrote:
CLE just posted on Facebook that the AA move happens tonight at midnight. C3, 5, 7, 9 and 11 remain jetway-less, but it looks like AA will use common use Gates C2, 4, and 14 during the transition as well as A1 and 3. It seems like this has been made far more complicated than it needs to be a d confusing for the cuatomer.

What is the logic behind that? It's not like CLE has someone that urgently needs to get into the old AA Concourse A gates. The only thing I can figure is that AA would move the jetways after they move from A to C?

AA will start using the common use gates on C during the transition starting with inbound flights on Wednesday as well as C3 & C5 for ground level boarding until jetways are moved from D to C. They will also retain A1 and A3 for a bit. Ticket counter remains where it is (for now) and baggage claim and a new baggage service office will open in mid-June on the south end of the baggage claim level.

greenair727 · Wed May 17, 2017 2:13 pm

^from "D to C". Is AA buying some jetways from UA? I thought UA had already shipped out all their D jetways.

CLEguy · Wed May 17, 2017 11:07 pm

greenair727 wrote:
^from "D to C". Is AA buying some jetways from UA? I thought UA had already shipped out all their D jetways.

That's what the airport spokesperson said. Not really sure who owns the jetways. I know UA removed most of them from their unused gates on C. And several were swapped from D to C already-I think C8 was formerly at D. There are still several jetways attached at D.

lakeeffect · Thu May 18, 2017 11:22 am

Southwest has loaded a 2x daily CLE-MKE with their latest extension this morning. How long before UA drops this?

lakeeffect · Thu May 18, 2017 11:51 am

Picking a random Monday in November, Southwest will be up to 20 departures from CLE. Last November, WN offered about 14-15 daily departures from CLE.

Frequencies on Nov 6:
5x MDW
3x BWI
2x MKE
2x LAS
2x BNA
2x ATL
2x STL
1x PHX
1x DEN

Perhaps CLE will get MCI or HOU in 2018? WN has been slowly adding a new destination every 6 months or so.

flight152 · Thu May 18, 2017 2:38 pm

lakeeffect wrote:
Southwest has loaded a 2x daily CLE-MKE with their latest extension this morning. How long before UA drops this?

What makes you think UA will drop? It's a lot easier for UA to make money on a small market with 50 seats at a time versus 150. Also, due to the business nature of the city pair, there are a lot of UA elites on this city pair.

masseybrown · Thu May 18, 2017 3:37 pm

I keep expecting WN to add another eastern point such as BDL, PVD, or ALB - but they don't. In PIT, where WN has more flights than CLE, BWI is also the only eastern point. They must not need any feed for the westbound originations.

masseybrown · Thu May 18, 2017 4:44 pm

CLE has posted February numbers. For pax, YOY comparisons are flat, allowing for one less day. For cargo (a new addition to their report) tonnage was up 7.3% all of it inbound.

fun2fly · Thu May 18, 2017 6:58 pm

lakeeffect wrote:
Southwest has loaded a 2x daily CLE-MKE with their latest extension this morning. How long before UA drops this?

No idea, but it will test the corporate contracts they have with Eaton, Rockwell, etc. who have interests in MKE. UA did stick with BOS and many an a.netter said they would not. On the BOS side, there's a tourist flow, not sure on MKE. It's a lot of seats in the CLE>MKE market.

It's the last city I'd like to see WN expand to...but CLE will take what it can get. LAX, SLC, HOU, etc. would all be better.

plinth857 · Thu May 18, 2017 7:02 pm

fun2fly wrote:
lakeeffect wrote:
Southwest has loaded a 2x daily CLE-MKE with their latest extension this morning. How long before UA drops this?

No idea, but it will test the corporate contracts they have with Eaton, Rockwell, etc. who have interests in MKE. UA did stick with BOS and many an a.netter said they would not. On the BOS side, there's a tourist flow, not sure on MKE. It's a lot of seats in the CLE>MKE market.

It's the last city I'd like to see WN expand to...but CLE will take what it can get. LAX, SLC, HOU, etc. would all be better.

I'd like to see MCI. I know the airport/business community has been talking about that one for a while.

fun2fly · Thu May 18, 2017 7:04 pm

plinth857 wrote:

I'd like to see MCI. I know the airport/business community has been talking about that one for a while.

That would have been a good one and opened a non stop market not currently serviced. I would have lost a lot on the MKE bet...guess that's why I'm not in charge.

Would WN route connections via MKE or just push the nonstop service?

CLEguy · Fri May 19, 2017 11:25 pm

Looks like there are improvements planned for the newly named "Ground Transportation Center" instead of shuttles moving back to the arrivals level. I don't think this will satisfy most passengers. Although, compared to many other airports, the distances involved are not that great.

http://clevelandairport.com/customer-se ... ion-center

fun2fly · Sat May 20, 2017 12:14 am

CLEguy wrote:
Looks like there are improvements planned for the newly named "Ground Transportation Center" instead of shuttles moving back to the arrivals level. I don't think this will satisfy most passengers. Although, compared to many other airports, the distances involved are not that great.

http://clevelandairport.com/customer-se ... ion-center

The distances are fine. You wouldn't be from Terminal C to B in Ohare before you're already in your car at CLE. I'd suggest throwing out those super narrow shelters in place of something wider and more permanent.

When you talk to the offsite providers, they state CLE is doing this to keep the CLE garages full and theirs empty...probably true.

On the Concourse D jet bridges going to C for AA, why in the hell were these not moved over the past two months prior to the move vs. the two months after the move? Strange setup for sure. How's it going for AA? I'll try to scope it out next week, but I'll be there too early to see any action.

HPAEAA · Sat May 20, 2017 3:36 am

fun2fly wrote:
CLEguy wrote:
Looks like there are improvements planned for the newly named "Ground Transportation Center" instead of shuttles moving back to the arrivals level. I don't think this will satisfy most passengers. Although, compared to many other airports, the distances involved are not that great.

http://clevelandairport.com/customer-se ... ion-center

The distances are fine. You wouldn't be from Terminal C to B in Ohare before you're already in your car at CLE. I'd suggest throwing out those super narrow shelters in place of something wider and more permanent.

When you talk to the offsite providers, they state CLE is doing this to keep the CLE garages full and theirs empty...probably true.

On the Concourse D jet bridges going to C for AA, why in the hell were these not moved over the past two months prior to the move vs. the two months after the move? Strange setup for sure. How's it going for AA? I'll try to scope it out next week, but I'll be there too early to see any action.

Agree on the distances but people note the wait times... honestly I wish they'd bring the rental cars back on site, while the shuttle drivers tend to be great, it adds a lot of time to the trip in & out of the airport.

I'll be through in June July & august on AA, will appreciate avoiding the airstairs on A5 but hopefully they get the bridges moved quickly.

masseybrown · Sat May 20, 2017 6:24 pm

http://realestate.cleveland.com/realest ... iver_index

UPS just bought 65 acres of vacant land adjacent to their current Brookpark facility. "We have not made any decisions," said Susan Rosenberg, public relations directors at UPS's corporate headquarters in Atlanta. "The property became available, and it was prudent for us to look at it and make the purchase now because it was strategically located right next to our current hub."

The article states that the land has been for sale for two years and was in the process of being sold for multi-site development when UPS suddenly swooped in and bought it. UPS may not have made any decisions, but you can bet they have plans. This site is also very close to the idle Ford Engine Plant, which is a rumored location for an American Plasma Energy manufacturing facility. APE expects to be a big user of air freight.

masseybrown · Sun May 21, 2017 3:04 pm

Delta is adding a 4th CLE-JFK in September. It seems they really want to own CLE-NYC. They already offer the most seats in the CLE-LGA market.

fun2fly · Sun May 21, 2017 8:15 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Delta is adding a 4th CLE-JFK in September. It seems they really want to own CLE-NYC. They already offer the most seats in the CLE-LGA market.

And doing a good job giving UA a run for the $ on the TATL connections from NYC also with aggressive rates, partner connections and a growing number TPAC connections with the 4th flight. I see many times they also offer the most competitively priced flights for TATL. Add that to mainline to MSP on some flights, MCO direct. Just need SLC and CUN like they offer for many cities. Certainly a strong case for DL. I wonder what their 5 year YOY numbers are?

Good luck to them.

greenair727 · Sun May 21, 2017 8:28 pm

^I just flew CLE-LGA last week and chose DL over UA. Price and times were equivalent. Pre-hub closure, I was a very loyal UA pax. These days if price and times are relatively the same I'll always choose DL or AA over UA.

ncflyer · Sun May 21, 2017 8:54 pm

I don't understand why DL has so few seats ferrying connections to DTW. I like to compare it to RDU CLT which had 9 trips 8 mainline. CLT GSO 8 trips zero mainline. One would think CLE DTW would be similar. Very short drive but doesn't matter in the Carolinas.

fun2fly · Sun May 21, 2017 10:48 pm

ncflyer wrote:
I don't understand why DL has so few seats ferrying connections to DTW. I like to compare it to RDU CLT which had 9 trips 8 mainline. CLT GSO 8 trips zero mainline. One would think CLE DTW would be similar. Very short drive but doesn't matter in the Carolinas.

I'm just happy they have larger equipment on the route, that 22 minutes is one hell of a ride on a CRJ on a stormy Lake Erie day. Seat count is up as it seems to be 2xCR9, CR7 and 717 daily. 76+76+69+110= 331. So, I guess they could have 7x CRJ's...no thanks.

masseybrown · Mon May 22, 2017 5:19 am

DL is adding a fifth flight to DTW in mid-July. I think the number is modest because MSP offers many of the same connections.

lakeeffect · Mon May 22, 2017 11:07 am

JFK is CLE's fastest growing nonstop O&D market and it has no low fare carriers. DL is probably proactively adding capacity to keep B6 out of this market a little bit longer, while taking more high yield international connections away from UA at EWR.

Given Southwest's fleet reductions later this year, it's even more impressive that WN's departures from CLE will be up 33% year over year starting in November. It will be interesting to see what 2018 brings when WN's fleet size increases again.

plinth857 · Mon May 22, 2017 2:09 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Delta is adding a 4th CLE-JFK in September. It seems they really want to own CLE-NYC. They already offer the most seats in the CLE-LGA market.

Plus, the DL area of LaGuardia is much better than the UA/AA area. I was there this weekend, and the restrooms and hallways are in atrocious condition, and not just because of passenger usage.

masseybrown · Mon May 22, 2017 3:45 pm

About the placement of AA's new gates ... taking that particular block (C3,5,7,9,11) nicely breaks up C into small remainders (C8,10,14) and (C2 and maybe C4) which would prevent anybody but JetBlue from accumulating a meaningful piece of gate real estate - and it's hard to see JetBlue's Cleveland plans ever requiring a fourth gate. That would seem to be a real disadvantage to the airport in peddling the gates unless AA has an undisclosed option to take more. And while we're at it, now that Concourse A has become Cleveland's version of Ellis Island, so to speak, where will the airport put Delta (which really needs four contiguous gates) when Southwest wants all of Concourse B to itself?

flymco753 · Mon May 22, 2017 4:11 pm

masseybrown wrote:
DL is adding a fifth flight to DTW in mid-July. I think the number is modest because MSP offers many of the same connections.

4x CR9 and 1x M88. DTW will offer more than MSP essentially because of access to Europe, Mexico, Brazil and Asia. Not to mention other markets that are east like PVD, BDL, ELM, ALB that are easily accessible and don't require as far of a back track.

ncflyer · Mon May 22, 2017 5:47 pm

Regarding all the gate movement I'd like to think and hope that the powers that be at CLE preserve the options to re-shuffle the tenants again should a better opportunity present itself, such as a new Midwest hub for someone (no I'm not holding my breath, but stranger things have happened). Wish I knew the history back in the day when US Air had a min hub in CLE, and then when CO started building up it's hub, seems to me there was a fair bit of gate shuffling back then. It is a little ironic that an airport that seemingly has so much capacity, and by far it's most "modern" gate facility mothballed, has so little capacity.

Massy can't tell if you're being sarcastic? WN has plenty of gate capacity right now to add a lot more flights, as much as I'd like to fantasize about CLE becoming another STL or MCI. . . .

jplatts · Mon May 22, 2017 6:36 pm

lakeeffect wrote:
JFK is CLE's fastest growing nonstop O&D market and it has no low fare carriers. DL is probably proactively adding capacity to keep B6 out of this market a little bit longer, while taking more high yield international connections away from UA at EWR.

Given Southwest's fleet reductions later this year, it's even more impressive that WN's departures from CLE will be up 33% year over year starting in November. It will be interesting to see what 2018 brings when WN's fleet size increases again.

Will jetBlue end up adding CLE-JFK nonstop service?

masseybrown · Mon May 22, 2017 6:56 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Massy can't tell if you're being sarcastic? WN has plenty of gate capacity right now to add a lot more flights, as much as I'd like to fantasize about CLE becoming another STL or MCI. . . .

I'm not being sarcastic. WN has done very well with other airlines cast-offs - STL, BNA, BWI, MCI, most notably. BWI is the only one they really fought for; the others were walk-ins. With their present five CLE gates, they could operate 45 or so flights, which would give them the opportunity to restore some of CLE's missing routes. With eleven gates, however, they could run a very nice small hub and add more marginal routes that would appeal to business travelers but would not be supportable on CLE O&D alone. If DL would kindly step aside, WN could modernize B at their own expense and have a very nice operation from the city's point of view. Modernizing B would probably be cheaper than building a walkway to D, but D might be doable also.

I know CO had use-it-or-lose-it provisions in their 1990s-era gate leases, but I don't know if current leases still include that.

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