IND was the largest midwestern market from SAN and it'll be getting a seasonal service on WN this summer. CLE would be next on the list, just below MKE which already has service. I think routes like that will take time because WN needs higher O&D to start a flight these days and is also building up several pseudo-hubs in between CLE and SAN. However F9 could probably make a go at it a 3-4 weekly.

Any news/updates on when (if?) AA will be moving to C?

commavia wrote:

Any news/updates on when (if?) AA will be moving to C?

The last I heard was sometime in March, but that was a while ago..

Ultimate is getting creative: " COMING SPRING 2017 – New service will begin from Cleveland, Cincinnati to Atlanta. Flight will originate in BKL, stop at LUK then continue on to Atlanta." - from their inflight magazine. Using the Peachtree Airport in Atlanta.

http://ultimateairshuttle.com/wp-conten ... 17_WEB.pdf Pages 8-10.

masseybrown wrote:

Ultimate is getting creative: " COMING SPRING 2017 – New service will begin from Cleveland, Cincinnati to Atlanta. Flight will originate in BKL, stop at LUK then continue on to Atlanta." - from their inflight magazine. Using the Peachtree Airport in Atlanta.

http://ultimateairshuttle.com/wp-conten ... 17_WEB.pdf Pages 8-10.

This service was talked about when they announced BKL-MMU. It was mentioned in the Plain Dealer article

AirportRival wrote:

This service was talked about when they announced BKL-MMU. It was mentioned in the Plain Dealer article

Yes, but as a LUK spoke - at least that was my impression. The BKL extension, according to the article, is possible because their new rez system is much more flexible.I think we'll see a LUK-BKL-MMU routing before long.

Speaking of Burke, whatever happened to the speculation on Porter service?

CLE posted October and November numbers. For 11 months of 2016, the total passenger count was 7,791K. Extrapolating, 2016 should come in at around 8.5 million, up 400K from 2015. I thought the monthly total for November seemed unusually weak, maybe there will be a revision forthcoming.

masseybrown wrote:

CLE posted October and November numbers. For 11 months of 2016, the total passenger count was 7,791K. Extrapolating, 2016 should come in at around 8.5 million, up 400K from 2015. I thought the monthly total for November seemed unusually weak, maybe there will be a revision forthcoming.

November 2016 was still up about 1.6% from November 2015. Historically, November is usually the third slowest month of the year at CLE.

I think Allegiant should provide a nice bump in traffic for 2017. Their unique destinations will probably stimulate traffic that would normally drive to take a flight instead. VPS is a prime example of this, along with SAV. I believe that the VPS addition brings CLE's list of nonstop destinations back up to 50.

greenair727 wrote:

Speaking of Burke, whatever happened to the speculation on Porter service?

When is the US preclearance facility supposed to be built at YTZ? I don't think service to BKL is possible before then.

^BKL has CBP.

Porter is struggling in PIT, down to one flight a day, which doesn't make CLE (or BKL) service too likely anytime soon.

^that may be true, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a CLE/BKL route would fail. B6 went to Columbus. That failed, but they're doing very well at CLE. Current fares on CLE-YYZ are crazy---just tested a mid-week round trip in March and it was $575 (for what is around a 28-minute flight).

Couldn't help to notice but looks like DL is operating CLE-PUJ today with A320! Is this new service?

^ Looks as if it might be a DTW-PUJ diversion to CLE.

masseybrown wrote:

^ Looks as if it might be a DTW-PUJ diversion to CLE.

Wonder why they wouldn't just go back to DTW, it actually showed a 9000 flt # inbound and left as flt 550!

Robert1010 wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

^ Looks as if it might be a DTW-PUJ diversion to CLE.

Wonder why they wouldn't just go back to DTW, it actually showed a 9000 flt # inbound and left as flt 550!

Looks like a mechanical diversion to CLE, then it continued on to PUJ on a different aircraft. 550 is showing arriving in CLE at 9:57am and departing for PUJ at 2:24pm. The replacement aircraft came in as DL9935 at 12:59pm.

Robert1010 wrote:

Wonder why they wouldn't just go back to DTW, it actually showed a 9000 flt # inbound and left as flt 550!

It couldn't go back to DTW because DTW had halted all arrivals due to dense fog. CLE had several DTW fog diversions, mostly Express CRJ's that had been holding awhile.

The fog that came through the Midwestern terminals was completely insane. I'm not surprised there were diversions at all. Check out this video of the ops out of DTW on 1/22!

https://youtu.be/974Utud8I6U

masseybrown wrote:

CLE posted October and November numbers. For 11 months of 2016, the total passenger count was 7,791K. Extrapolating, 2016 should come in at around 8.5 million, up 400K from 2015. I thought the monthly total for November seemed unusually weak, maybe there will be a revision forthcoming.

Nov is typically 7- 10% lower than October, at least looking at the past 9 years. This year was -9.6%, but last year was -10.5% (and 2014 was -6.8%). But why is that? With Thanksgiving being the biggest travel weekend of the year and usually the return trips from dinner are also in November, even if business and leisure travel slowing down, it should be offset by Thanksgiving to at least something better than a 7 to 10% loss from October.

F9 to announce new CLE routes tomorrow to SAN, IAH, CLT, and maybe MSP.

SAN, MSP, CLT, and IAH are all now bookable on Frontier's website. They seem to be 3-4x per week.

SAN had been the largest unserved market from CLE for a while now, nice to see it finally get added. The other three are legacy airline hubs which have marginal tourist appeal in comparison to F9's other destinations from CLE. It will be interesting to see the response, if any, by the legacy carriers at CLE. I wonder if this would prompt DL to have a year round mainline presence to MSP?

What is the largest unserved destination from CLE now? I'd have to imagine that it's either SLC or MCI.

So far as we know F9 will average about 10 dailies again this summer? That shakes out to about what they started with, spread around among different destinations. Since the company is more or less for sale, we can't hope for anything too daring from them. So they must be confident with this schedule and pleased with their results in CLE; and that's a good outcome in the longer run.

masseybrown wrote:

So far as we know F9 will average about 10 dailies again this summer? That shakes out to about what they started with, spread around among different destinations. Since the company is more or less for sale, we can't hope for anything too daring from them. So they must be confident with this schedule and pleased with their results in CLE; and that's a good outcome in the longer run.

I believe these four new routes bring it up to about 12 daily departures this summer, that's assuming there aren't any trims to what's already been announced.

F9 is clearly adding markets from CLE that are either routes with no competition, or no competition from other ULCCs or LCCs. That seems like a smart move.

masseybrown wrote:

So far as we know F9 will average about 10 dailies again this summer? That shakes out to about what they started with, spread around among different destinations. Since the company is more or less for sale, we can't hope for anything too daring from them. So they must be confident with this schedule and pleased with their results in CLE; and that's a good outcome in the longer run.

Are they not adding frequency on any of the existing routes? I'm asking because they did at CVG so I assumed they did at other cities as well. F9 will average 15 daily at CVG this Summer.

lakeeffect wrote:

What is the largest unserved destination from CLE now? I'd have to imagine that it's either SLC or MCI.

2nd Quarter, 2016 CLE destinations with more than 100 pax (per day both ways) not currently served (announced but not-yet-started routes are noted)

SAN - 223 (F9)
AUS - 172 (G4)
MCI - 169
SAT - 160
SLC - 138
MSY - 132 (NK,G4)
JAX - 127 (G4)
SAV - 114 (G4)
PBI - 112
SNA - 101

Note: numbers are for CLE Metro since when only CLE has non-stop service it gets most of CAK's pax.

Just read with the new CLE additions on F9 , the number of destinations out of CLE is now 17

It's nice to see CLE-SAN getting nonstop service again; it's been a while since there's been any sort of air connection between the 2 cities. There is definitely traffic in the market that should support some level of regular service. (Hopefully permanent, year-round?)

And congrats to CLE for Frontier's continued expansion at Hopkins.

(It's also, of course, very nice to see F9 continue to expand their SAN ops!)

bb

SANFan wrote:

It's nice to see CLE-SAN getting nonstop service again; it's been a while since there's been any sort of air connection between the 2 cities. There is definitely traffic in the market that should support some level of regular service. (Hopefully permanent, year-round?)

And congrats to CLE for Frontier's continued expansion at Hopkins.

(It's also, of course, very nice to see F9 continue to expand their SAN ops!)

bb

It has been a long time.

What's SAN's largest unserved market now? I'm thinking PIT.

izbtmnhd wrote:

It has been a long time. What's SAN's largest unserved market now? I'm thinking PIT.

According to my records and analysis, the 6 largest un-served (domestic) non-restricted destinations (besides DCA, which is definitely the largest un-served market from Lindbergh) are TPA, ORF, RDU, OMA, CMH & PIT. (This is as of 1Q16; I'm behind in getting the figures together for 2Q16.)

bb

Does anyone think it's a coincidence? Frontier adds a route to a Delta hub, a route to an American hub, and a route to a United hub? I think SAN will work beautifully four times a week out of CLE--- the other ones, which are more business than pleasure destinations--- I'm seeing them going the way of Philly to tell you the truth. Low loads and not lasting. It is a head scratcher to me that RDU seems to work out of CLE, but I guess that's a big Outer Banks and Pinehurst launch point.

ncflyer wrote:

Does anyone think it's a coincidence? Frontier adds a route to a Delta hub, a route to an American hub, and a route to a United hub? I think SAN will work beautifully four times a week out of CLE--- the other ones, which are more business than pleasure destinations--- I'm seeing them going the way of Philly to tell you the truth. Low loads and not lasting. It is a head scratcher to me that RDU seems to work out of CLE, but I guess that's a big Outer Banks and Pinehurst launch point.

I'm assuming that he new routes are summer seasonal - like CLE-RDU - so no, I doubt they'll "last" though the winter. They may come back the following summer.

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/boo ... stinations

"HEBRON, Ky. -- Frontier Airlines announced service to three new cities from the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport on Tuesday, further bolstering its roster of seasonal flights from the region."

Same-same for CLE, I assume.

mariner

From Susan Glaser's followup report: "New Airport Director Robert Kennedy said transatlantic service is also a top priority, calling it a 'critical focus.' Cleveland, he said, has the local passenger traffic to attract nonstop service to Europe."

Interesting comment by Kennedy considering it was Frontier's press conference. I don't think he would have said it if he didn't think CLE has a pretty good shot at something (already under negotiation?) for 2018.

My feeling is a European LCC could tie into CLE's growing domestic LCC feed very nicely.

masseybrown wrote:

From Susan Glaser's followup report: "New Airport Director Robert Kennedy said transatlantic service is also a top priority, calling it a 'critical focus.' Cleveland, he said, has the local passenger traffic to attract nonstop service to Europe."

Interesting comment by Kennedy considering it was Frontier's press conference. I don't think he would have said it if he didn't think CLE has a pretty good shot at something (already under negotiation?) for 2018.

My feeling is a European LCC could tie into CLE's growing domestic LCC feed very nicely.

"Critical focus" still doesn't mean that he's close to landing something. This is also the first time he's done a presser since being hired so mentioning TATL makes sense.

The Browns have had a "critical focus" on the QB position since 1999, yet the results have been nada!

Robert Kennedy's comment gives me a little hope. I really wish our leaders would look to the Cincy / Kentucky officials who have now joined together twice to both get Southwest and a huge cargo hub for CVG. I'm sorry, but I just don't get very excited about anything Frontier does.

VetteDude wrote:

Robert Kennedy's comment gives me a little hope. I really wish our leaders would look to the Cincy / Kentucky officials who have now joined together twice to both get Southwest and a huge cargo hub for CVG. I'm sorry, but I just don't get very excited about anything Frontier does.

Same goes for PIT, with all the new TATL carriers!

Plus PIT/CVGhave much ,much , much did I say much ...more nicer facilities, CLE airport is so outdated , just the layout alone is so behind the times along with the old terminals, most cities who had similar airports closed them down 20 yrs ago and moved on with new ones , CLE officials need to get with the millennium and do something for the area that involves Akron as well!

I don't think CLE will see TATL service unless it's heavily subsidized. With that said I don't think the NE Ohio business community will embrace a ULCC carrier to Europe. Take a look at WOW, a less than daily flight to KEF does nothing for the business community. I still think CLE's best shot at TATL is a flight to Dublin.

The other sad reality for CLE is that business oriented point to point flights are never coming back on the legacies. The 50 seaters are leaving the networks in droves. With the ULCC operating aircraft that seat over 180 pax, that's too much capacity for daily service, let alone 2-3x daily to places like MCI, ALB, SAT, PVD, etc that people would like to see return.

The end result is what you see at CLE now. You've got dozens of destinations with 3-4 flights per week. I don't see that changing for the next few years.

Regarding Akron and Cleveland working together, I've actually thought quite a bit about a region-wide airport, and my conclusion is that even if leaders wanted to, and could get the capital too, it still isn't a good project. There isn't much area to put a greenfield airport in between the cities, except maybe Richfield. The Coliseum back in the day tried to merge the Akron and Cleveland regions, and didn't really work. 77 would become an even bigger pain than it is. And, worst of all, it would actually inconvenience more people than the current situation of having 2 airports. A greenfield airport between the cities would inconvenience Canton travelers (furthur away than CAK), and it would really inconvenience downtown and west side travelers. The only people would would benefit are us east siders who could hop on 271. Plus, even with CAK dying off and cut to the bone, there are still people who will defend it until their final breath (especially on Cleveland.com).

If we really wanted a radical idea, I'd be in favor of tearing down the I-X center and building a modern O+D focused terminal there, kind of like what MSY is doing. The city would never go for that though, it would require a huge relocation of all the support buildings south of the current terminal, plus it would move the terminal even further away from the rental cars.

A and B aren't going to last forever, and C and D are undoubtedly our best concourses, so my wish is the city would bite the bullet, build the C-D connector parallel to the terminal exit road (would add a few more mainline capable gates), then move the ULCCs to D, widen C dramatically to both (1) increase seating in the waiting areas and (2) add moving walkways to get to the banjo quickly since it is apparent United will be staying there in perpetuity, then do whatever with vacant A. The backside of D (hardstands) is useless without a hub, so I'm sure renovations could add some mainline gates. It's a shame that building is rotting away right now; our newest concourse sitting abandoned. What a mess...

VetteDude wrote:

Regarding Akron and Cleveland working together, I've actually thought quite a bit about a region-wide airport, and my conclusion is that even if leaders wanted to, and could get the capital too, it still isn't a good project. There isn't much area to put a greenfield airport in between the cities, except maybe Richfield. The Coliseum back in the day tried to merge the Akron and Cleveland regions, and didn't really work. 77 would become an even bigger pain than it is. And, worst of all, it would actually inconvenience more people than the current situation of having 2 airports. A greenfield airport between the cities would inconvenience Canton travelers (furthur away than CAK), and it would really inconvenience downtown and west side travelers. The only people would would benefit are us east siders who could hop on 271. Plus, even with CAK dying off and cut to the bone, there are still people who will defend it until their final breath (especially on Cleveland.com).

If we really wanted a radical idea, I'd be in favor of tearing down the I-X center and building a modern O+D focused terminal there, kind of like what MSY is doing. The city would never go for that though, it would require a huge relocation of all the support buildings south of the current terminal, plus it would move the terminal even further away from the rental cars.

A and B aren't going to last forever, and C and D are undoubtedly our best concourses, so my wish is the city would bite the bullet, build the C-D connector parallel to the terminal exit road (would add a few more mainline capable gates), then move the ULCCs to D, widen C dramatically to both (1) increase seating in the waiting areas and (2) add moving walkways to get to the banjo quickly since it is apparent United will be staying there in perpetuity, then do whatever with vacant A. The backside of D (hardstands) is useless without a hub, so I'm sure renovations could add some mainline gates. It's a shame that building is rotting away right now; our newest concourse sitting abandoned. What a mess...

For years in the 70s, 80s and 90s there was a proposal to build a large modern airport around Ravenna. It would have been a bit of a pain for people driving from the west side of Cleveland and Lorain-Elyria but it could have really been regionally focused as it would have good access to half of the Cleveland metro + Akron and Youngstown. Never really got going though. It is what it is.

VetteDude wrote:

Regarding Akron and Cleveland working together, I've actually thought quite a bit about a region-wide airport, and my conclusion is that even if leaders wanted to, and could get the capital too, it still isn't a good project. There isn't much area to put a greenfield airport in between the cities, except maybe Richfield. The Coliseum back in the day tried to merge the Akron and Cleveland regions, and didn't really work. 77 would become an even bigger pain than it is. And, worst of all, it would actually inconvenience more people than the current situation of having 2 airports. A greenfield airport between the cities would inconvenience Canton travelers (furthur away than CAK), and it would really inconvenience downtown and west side travelers. The only people would would benefit are us east siders who could hop on 271. Plus, even with CAK dying off and cut to the bone, there are still people who will defend it until their final breath (especially on Cleveland.com).

If we really wanted a radical idea, I'd be in favor of tearing down the I-X center and building a modern O+D focused terminal there, kind of like what MSY is doing. The city would never go for that though, it would require a huge relocation of all the support buildings south of the current terminal, plus it would move the terminal even further away from the rental cars.

A and B aren't going to last forever, and C and D are undoubtedly our best concourses, so my wish is the city would bite the bullet, build the C-D connector parallel to the terminal exit road (would add a few more mainline capable gates), then move the ULCCs to D, widen C dramatically to both (1) increase seating in the waiting areas and (2) add moving walkways to get to the banjo quickly since it is apparent United will be staying there in perpetuity, then do whatever with vacant A. The backside of D (hardstands) is useless without a hub, so I'm sure renovations could add some mainline gates. It's a shame that building is rotting away right now; our newest concourse sitting abandoned. What a mess...

Talk to anyone in a major city though! There airports ARE so far away for a lot of people IAD,DEN ATL, just the way it is, if you live in a major city with a lot of suburbs it's gonna happen!

lakeeffect wrote:

Take a look at WOW, a less than daily flight to KEF does nothing for the business community. I still think CLE's best shot at TATL is a flight to Dublin.

Business travel isn't the point of WOW. The publicity value of European service, essentially for its own sake, was. CLE's catchment is almost a million larger than PIT's. The number of college students within 100 miles is over 100,000 by itself. WOW would have had no problem filling 4-5 flights a week in CLE and probably could have attracted connecting pax from the domestic ULCC flights, further boosting traffic at the airport - and the airport needs all the pax it can get to increase its free cash flow to support facility improvements.

I agree with you that business traffic growth will only come slowly; with luck it will come fast enough to avoid losing any more corporate hqs.

izbtmnhd wrote:

For years in the 70s, 80s and 90s there was a proposal to build a large modern airport around Ravenna. It would have been a bit of a pain for people driving from the west side of Cleveland and Lorain-Elyria but it could have really been regionally focused as it would have good access to half of the Cleveland metro + Akron and Youngstown. Never really got going though. It is what it is.

I much preferred the "Jetport" on lake erie idea--and still do. The airport would have no NIMBY neighbors and could easily expand as needed. It would have been built a few miles north of Downtown, and connected to the city by a car tunnel, a rapid line, and a high speed train line.

AirportRival wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

Ultimate is getting creative: " COMING SPRING 2017 – New service will begin from Cleveland, Cincinnati to Atlanta. Flight will originate in BKL, stop at LUK then continue on to Atlanta." - from their inflight magazine. Using the Peachtree Airport in Atlanta.

http://ultimateairshuttle.com/wp-conten ... 17_WEB.pdf Pages 8-10.

This service was talked about when they announced BKL-MMU. It was mentioned in the Plain Dealer article

Ultimate has made it official. Service begins March 20. The morning BKL-LUK will be extended to PDK and the afternoon LUK-BKL will originate in PDK. Interesting item: fares will be the same to/from both Ohio cities.

masseybrown wrote:

AirportRival wrote:

masseybrown wrote:

Ultimate is getting creative: " COMING SPRING 2017 – New service will begin from Cleveland, Cincinnati to Atlanta. Flight will originate in BKL, stop at LUK then continue on to Atlanta." - from their inflight magazine. Using the Peachtree Airport in Atlanta.

http://ultimateairshuttle.com/wp-conten ... 17_WEB.pdf Pages 8-10.

This service was talked about when they announced BKL-MMU. It was mentioned in the Plain Dealer article

Ultimate has made it official. Service begins March 20. The morning BKL-LUK will be extended to PDK and the afternoon LUK-BKL will originate in PDK. Interesting item: fares will be the same to/from both Ohio cities.

So by looking at the schedule from before and after the add they have essentially only added a LUK-PDK roundtrip. The BKL-LUK was already being flown in the time slot that they are presenting as part of the BKL-LUK-PDK trip. So essentially LUK is getting the extra flight and seats but passengers from BKL are getting the option to make the "connection" in LUK for the same total price as a LUK passenger would pay.

greenair727 wrote:

izbtmnhd wrote:

For years in the 70s, 80s and 90s there was a proposal to build a large modern airport around Ravenna. It would have been a bit of a pain for people driving from the west side of Cleveland and Lorain-Elyria but it could have really been regionally focused as it would have good access to half of the Cleveland metro + Akron and Youngstown. Never really got going though. It is what it is.

I much preferred the "Jetport" on lake erie idea--and still do. The airport would have no NIMBY neighbors and could easily expand as needed. It would have been built a few miles north of Downtown, and connected to the city by a car tunnel, a rapid line, and a high speed train line.

I remember that proposal from the 80s too. The American version of KIX.

8.42 million pax for 2016, up almost 4%, according to:
http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.s ... iver_index

The final number is kind of disappointing after such a hot start early in the year. Capacity increases slowed, as did traffic growth in the second half. The region probably needs to see increased per capita income to sustain the growth since the traffic is now so heavily O&D.

What CLE needs is more Latin flights and Europe. I can see WOW Air announcing CLE as their next medium sized airport, and maybe Volaris to GDL.

fsafsx wrote:

What CLE needs is more Latin flights and Europe. I can see WOW Air announcing CLE as their next medium sized airport, and maybe Volaris to GDL.

I'd love to see more Latin and Europe. But is there demand for GDL? I'd rather have MEX or GRU--in other words, business destinations which will grow the CLE economy--which would in turn support leisure destinations. On European front, AMS, LHR, and FRA...

^re MEX, about 10 yrs ago, AM received USDOT authority on CLE-MEX, but never utilized it.