What's Going In CLE - Part 14

fun2fly · Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:02 pm

SgtBarone wrote:
F9 launching CLE-AUS on April 9th 4x weekly on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday.

Departs CLE at 4:39 PM, arrives in AUS at 6:49 PM.

Departs AUS at 12:04 PM, arrives in CLE at 3:49 PM.

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.s ... river_home

Perfect example of where UA route guys left a gem for someone else. Used to be ERJ CLE>AUS daily. UA could have put an E175 on this, along with their IAH connections, made a nice lane for themselves. Now, two LCC's can move 7 days per week with 160 seat A/C. Leveraging UA's overhead investment in CLE has to be on someone's radar and this is a great business route that UA could have had all to their own.

masseybrown · Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:19 pm

F9 is also bringing back CLE-LAX/DEN/PDX/SEA in April, but not SFO or SAN.

ncflyer · Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:20 pm

That is so well put fun2fly. First off I never really believed UA was losing money in CLE, I think they were routing connecting traffic away from the hub and lord knows there must be a million ways hub accounting can be allocated to make it look good or bad.

But--- saying that, UA just seems to have not much interest in a Delta like focus city strategy in CLE even though it is there for the taking. Does that mean nonstop routes to MDT and ROC and MSN should return? Of course not. But they let Delta serve BDL and RDU with untenable schedules and it just blows my mind that they couldn't make it work to medium sized places without service currently like MCI and IND and AUS.

Next squandered UA opportunity would be Europe, let us hope. I'm pretty convinced Iceland service will be a smash, maybe not for both carriers, but certainly for one. UA never had a real dedicated commitment to making Europe work.

plinth857 · Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:06 pm

masseybrown wrote:
plinth857 wrote:
Perhaps there is good corporate business or government business that help keep this afloat; the first class cabin is always full.

United Technologies has ops in both cities and they deal with NASA Glenn as well.

Ahhh, I see! I thought those first class cabin guys looked a little like engineers. :lol:

izbtmnhd · Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:16 pm

masseybrown wrote:
F9 is also bringing back CLE-LAX/DEN/PDX/SEA in April, but not SFO or SAN.

SAN was short-lived and it's disappointing but glad to see them bring back PDX. I know PDX people were concerned that F9 was attempting to shut down this station with so few flights this winter but it's clearly not the case.

I know it's unlikely but I wonder if UA will increase SFO frequencies this summer to fill in the F9 void..

masseybrown · Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:17 pm

ncflyer wrote:
That is so well put fun2fly. First off I never really believed UA was losing money in CLE, I think they were routing connecting traffic away from the hub and lord knows there must be a million ways hub accounting can be allocated to make it look good or bad.

Every time after the merger I checked from DC, they also charged a couple of dollars more to connect in CLE which made ORD and DEN connections come up first in online flight displays. Sometimes CLE connections wouldn't display at all even when they were better in terms of total trip time. They are probably losing >$5 million a year in CLE now. You might think they would add a few flights to spread the overhead as fun2fly suggested, but they don't seem interested. UA's problem has always been a lack of imagination.

plinth857 · Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:55 pm

masseybrown wrote:
F9 is also bringing back CLE-LAX/DEN/PDX/SEA in April, but not SFO or SAN.

Bad load factors on the SFO flight? Granted, I only flew it once, but the plane was 90% full both ways, even on the return redeye.

masseybrown · Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:10 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
SAN was short-lived and it's disappointing but glad to see them bring back PDX. I know PDX people were concerned that F9 was attempting to shut down this station with so few flights this winter but it's clearly not the case.

I know it's unlikely but I wonder if UA will increase SFO frequencies this summer to fill in the F9 void..

I haven't given up totally on SFO and SAN by F9. DEN,LAX,PDX, and SEA are coming back in April, which is earlier than other years. SFO and SAN could still show up when the full summer schedule is posted. It would be fun to see F9 work out some sort of codeshare with one of the Icelanders.

greenair727 · Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:23 am

I wish CLE was more visionary in their infrastructure plans....such as for a new FIS. There's so much federal money being spent at airports--even Cuyahoga County gets a runway extension. CLE just gets $21M for some taxiway work.

"FAA has awarded approximately $733 million in airport improvement program (AIP) grants so far in September, including $448.1 million in discretionary funds, pushing AIP awards in 2017 over the $3 billion mark. According to the US Department of Transportation (DOT), more than 1,660 new grants have been announced this year thus far, providing funds for 681 runway projects and 588 taxiway projects, in addition to signage, terminal renovations, and numerous other allotments, to nearly 1,360 US airports.......

Cleveland-Hopkins International Airport (CLE), Ohio: $21 million in combined AIP and discretionary funding to “correct the geometry of various taxiways at the airport,” DOT said. “These improvements are part of the FAA’s Runway Incursion Mitigation (RIM) program to enhance safety at the airport.”..."

http://atwonline.com/airports-routes/fa ... uston-bush

masseybrown · Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:31 am

Interesting presentation on ULCC competition among CLE/CAK/YNG/PIT posted by YNGguins in another thread, the upshot being CAK and YNG are being squeezed to near-death:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1372777&p=19832087#p19831831

masseybrown · Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:42 am

Here's a teaser from another board's CLE thread: "I think you are going to see some really great things coming out of the airport as an economic generator for the region and as a center for scientific discover...on Tuesday"

fun2fly · Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:03 am

masseybrown wrote:
Here's a teaser from another board's CLE thread: "I think you are going to see some really great things coming out of the airport as an economic generator for the region and as a center for scientific discover...on Tuesday"

We'll assume that some NASA news?

masseybrown · Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:02 pm

That was my guess; maybe NASA is tired of having four centers located in the Hurricane Belt.

fun2fly · Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:51 pm

masseybrown wrote:
That was my guess; maybe NASA is tired of having four centers located in the Hurricane Belt.

NASA is the kind of client that the City of CLE needs to court well. $100k jobs and a lifetime of knowledge transfer to the region. Let's hope for the best and perhaps it will boost those poor DCA LF#'s. :lol:

CLEguy · Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:58 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Here's a teaser from another board's CLE thread: "I think you are going to see some really great things coming out of the airport as an economic generator for the region and as a center for scientific discover...on Tuesday"

Not sure which other board you are referring to, but I couldn't find this quote anywhere. Could the scientific discovery have to do with one of the major hospital systems or the Medical Mart instead of NASA? Just pure speculation at this point.

masseybrown · Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:59 am

If not NASA, it might be Plasma Energy Group, which wanted to buy a hunk of the Ford property. PEG said they want to be near an air freight facility and planned to announce a decision by the end of summer.

masseybrown · Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:46 pm

CLE posted August numbers. 875,506 total pax - up 14% from last year; 6,106,433 total pax year to date - up 8% from last year

http://www.clevelandairport.com/cle-wel ... ers-summer

greenair727 · Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:40 pm

^That's great news! Does WW or FI code-share with anyone? I realize those two airlines will serve a bunch of US cities by May 2018, so the potential for any connections is limited first by any code-share agreements and secondly by why Cleveland would be the place to do it versus the many other cities. But if there are code shares, that may help boost numbers further beyond O&D (on top of any F9 connections).

Curious, what are now the largest US/Canadian cities not served from CLE at least 4x/week--SAN, SAT, MCI, YUL, PVD, YVR, SJU?

Midwestindy · Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:57 pm

greenair727 wrote:

Curious, what are now the largest US/Canadian cities not served from CLE at least 4x/week--SAN, SAT, MCI, YUL, PVD, YVR, SJU?

Depending on the frequencies of F9 routes, SAT, MCI, SLC, OAK/SJC, and PBI

LifetimeGS · Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:38 pm

Disappointing news:

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.s ... river_home

Midwestindy · Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:56 pm

LifetimeGS wrote:
Disappointing news:

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.s ... river_home

Shocker.....At this point, it's hard to take anything they do seriously....

San Diego, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Charlotte, and Houston are the ones that have been cut...

I wouldn't be surprised if WN conveniently announces some LAX/SAN/HOU-CLE routes soon though...

However, Frontier has recently increased the number of gates it leases at Cleveland Hopkins, from one to two, if that means anything...

fun2fly · Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:14 am

Midwestindy wrote:
LifetimeGS wrote:
Disappointing news:

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.s ... river_home

Shocker.....At this point, it's hard to take anything they do seriously....

San Diego, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Charlotte, and Houston are the ones that have been cut...

I wouldn't be surprised if WN conveniently announces some LAX/SAN/HOU-CLE routes soon though...

However, Frontier has recently increased the number of gates it leases at Cleveland Hopkins, from one to two, if that means anything...

If these are not the planned seasonal dormancy and they will not return in the spring, I'd say F9 is not a good fit for CLE. I've said all along that CLE should be courting WN and Alaska and etc. carriers to CLE, not the likes of F9 and NK. While they have helped to raise pax and lower debt through fees, it's hard to take them seriously if you plan a trip more than 30 days out, which is what a lot of their client base does. How many people are disappointed by such cancellations that end up never trying F9 again, then they move to a new market or new route. Maybe I'm wrong, but they won't see me.

ncflyer · Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:03 am

Anyone surprised that pdx is evidently a more successful route than SAN? I am…

greenair727 · Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:05 am

I've never flown F9 either and never even considered them with all the horror stories I've heard. The less-than-daily service for domestic operations, I think, is really annoying. I hope this clears the way for B6 or AS or some DL/AA/UA mainline service.

Midwestindy · Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:11 am

ncflyer wrote:
Anyone surprised that pdx is evidently a more successful route than SAN? I am…

joeman · Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:37 am

Maybe some non-CLE a.netters can provide a dumb lecture on the fierce ULCC competition in CLE and how lucky we are to have airline service

Midwestindy · Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:55 am

joeman wrote:
Maybe some non-CLE a.netters can provide a dumb lecture on the fierce ULCC competition in CLE and how lucky we are to have airline service

^^^Great Point, CLE is really lucky to have not only a lot of ULCC competition but also LCC competition, which very few other markets of its size have.

To have G4, Apple Vacations, F9(focus city), FI, B6, WN, NK, Vacation Express, and WW is impressive in its own right. Not to mention the benefits this has: increased pax numbers(22.5% increase in O&D from '15-'17), more revenue for the airport, and keeping UA's fares down.

flymco753 · Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:09 am

Too much ULCC exposure though won’t be a driver for airlines like AS or B6.

greenair727 · Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:47 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Here's a teaser from another board's CLE thread: "I think you are going to see some really great things coming out of the airport as an economic generator for the region and as a center for scientific discover...on Tuesday"

It's Tuesday! After the F9 cuts, we need some good news!

masseybrown · Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:09 pm

^ I hesitated about posting that second hand item. So often they come to nothing.

plinth857 · Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:16 pm

greenair727 wrote:
I've never flown F9 either and never even considered them with all the horror stories I've heard. The less-than-daily service for domestic operations, I think, is really annoying. I hope this clears the way for B6 or AS or some DL/AA/UA mainline service.

F9 works in my opinion, but only on certain routes (their daily routes, of course). On a trip to MCO, we flew Frontier to MCO and returned on United. The Frontier flight was on one of their newest A321 aircraft; it was clean, had in-flight-entertainment and the in-flight service was top-notch. The flight departed and arrived on time. The return on United was delayed 2+ hours, the 737-800 was dirty, though the staff were friendly and apologetic for the delay. The cost for each flight was similar after luggage costs and seat selection were thrown in. All in all, I would fly F9 for this route. I've had bad luck with F9 on other routes (their discontinued DFW route, for example). Most often, I just stick with AA for that route, which has newer A319's and B738's replacing the old MD-80's now.

I wonder if WN would consider a CLE to SAN flight; they have a fairly large presence at San Diego, don't they?

ncflyer · Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:54 pm

Yeah but SAN is not a hub and let’s face it out of CLE WN is strictly a spoke. Other than the MKE head scratcher. . . But that is a very short flight with strong Corp ties between the two cities. I’d look for DAL or HOU well before anything else from CLE, as those are the nearest missing hubs.

As far as Frontier I think the ULCC nationwide market is saturated with obvious vacation routes to places like MCO and LAS and elsewhere in FL, to me they are fishing for new routes that work. If SJC to CVG works for example I’ll just be totally shocked, but why not fish? The less than daily service to places like SAN is just not inviting to a huge segment of the flying public.

phluser · Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:44 pm

plinth857 wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
I've never flown F9 either and never even considered them with all the horror stories I've heard. The less-than-daily service for domestic operations, I think, is really annoying. I hope this clears the way for B6 or AS or some DL/AA/UA mainline service.

F9 works in my opinion, but only on certain routes (their daily routes, of course). On a trip to MCO, we flew Frontier to MCO and returned on United. The Frontier flight was on one of their newest A321 aircraft; it was clean, had in-flight-entertainment and the in-flight service was top-notch. The flight departed and arrived on time. The return on United was delayed 2+ hours, the 737-800 was dirty, though the staff were friendly and apologetic for the delay. The cost for each flight was similar after luggage costs and seat selection were thrown in. All in all, I would fly F9 for this route. I've had bad luck with F9 on other routes (their discontinued DFW route, for example). Most often, I just stick with AA for that route, which has newer A319's and B738's replacing the old MD-80's now.

I wonder if WN would consider a CLE to SAN flight; they have a fairly large presence at San Diego, don't they?

The F9 flight had in-flight entertainment?

joeman · Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:21 am

lakeeffect wrote:
It's not that hard to fill up planes in the summer, but here's a look at Frontier's load factors for CLE in July. Frontier had their highest pax count at CLE this July since starting service. The west coast flights seemed to be quite full and the fares weren't all that cheap considering F9's ULCC status. PHL is disappointing, especially considering these flights were easily had for $30 one way. Hopefully the west coast flights return when F9 publishes their late spring/summer schedules.

RSW 95.5%
LAX 93.3%
TPA 93.3%
ATL 93.1%
SEA 93.1%
LAS 92.9%
SFO 92.9%
PHX 91.8%
MCO 88.5%
DEN 87.7%
RDU 87.5%
PDX 81.4%
PHL 76.0%

July was also the first full month of the resumed WN CLE-STL flight which had an 83.9% load factor.

I believe this was about 2016. I wonder if the ATL LAX and SFO flights did so poorly now in record breaking 2017 with all the ULCC competition that F9 felt they could do better on CVG-SJC or PHL-MSN. As far as yield and high load factors.not meaning a great cash return goes... when it comes to F9 I thought all their flights were about being cheap.

Jshank83 · Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:33 am

phluser wrote:

The F9 flight had in-flight entertainment?

They used to, but I don't think they do anymore. Someone that has flown on them recently in here might be able to chime in.

CLEguy · Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:44 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Here's a teaser from another board's CLE thread: "I think you are going to see some really great things coming out of the airport as an economic generator for the region and as a center for scientific discover...on Tuesday"

Did anyone see an announcement yesterday related to this post?

masseybrown · Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:54 pm

^Alas, no.

phluser · Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:34 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
phluser wrote:

The F9 flight had in-flight entertainment?

They used to, but I don't think they do anymore. Someone that has flown on them recently in here might be able to chime in.

I didn't think so either, but the person who I was replying to stated the flight (to MCO on a new A321) had in-flight entertainment offered.

Jshank83 · Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:29 pm

phluser wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
phluser wrote:

The F9 flight had in-flight entertainment?

They used to, but I don't think they do anymore. Someone that has flown on them recently in here might be able to chime in.

I didn't think so either, but the person who I was replying to stated the flight (to MCO on a new A321) had in-flight entertainment offered.

I was just backing up your thoughts. I figured that's what you meant.

greenair727 · Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:11 pm

Big write up on Ken Ricci and Directional Aviation:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/douggollan ... -not-know/

masseybrown · Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:12 pm

The airport is advertising a contract for "seasonal" (snowplow) drivers. That must be the work-around for City Hall problems with hiring, discussed in the FAA fine case. Or maybe it's just plain good business sense for handling a peak demand.

greenair727 · Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:46 pm

From enilria's weekly list:

NK CAK-FLL MAR 1.0>0.4 APR 0.9>0.2
NK CAK-LAS MAY 1.0>0
NK CAK-MYR MAY 1.0>0.4
NK CAK-RSW APR 0.5>0.2
NK CAK-TPA APR 0.4>0.2

Is this the beginning of the end of NK at CAK, in favor of their ops at CLE?

plinth857 · Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:30 pm

greenair727 wrote:
From enilria's weekly list:

NK CAK-FLL MAR 1.0>0.4 APR 0.9>0.2
NK CAK-LAS MAY 1.0>0
NK CAK-MYR MAY 1.0>0.4
NK CAK-RSW APR 0.5>0.2
NK CAK-TPA APR 0.4>0.2

Is this the beginning of the end of NK at CAK, in favor of their ops at CLE?

Could be. How are their load factors? Maybe the non-daily service will end up working for them. But, eventually you have to put the planes where they make the most money. When I've flown out of CAK on Delta and AA, the planes are small but full. I haven't been on another carrier since I did WN from CAK to BOS about 4-5 years ago (fairly full flight there, though).

masseybrown · Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:38 pm

greenair727 wrote:
From enilria's weekly list:

NK CAK-FLL MAR 1.0>0.4 APR 0.9>0.2
NK CAK-LAS MAY 1.0>0
NK CAK-MYR MAY 1.0>0.4
NK CAK-RSW APR 0.5>0.2
NK CAK-TPA APR 0.4>0.2

Is this the beginning of the end of NK at CAK, in favor of their ops at CLE?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1372777&p=19832087#p19831831

Take a look at the cited post. It pretty much predicts the end of CAK and YNG. CLE and PIT are squeezing them with better choices and more frequency.

Edit: the link isn't working. Try this: https://lintvwkbn.files.wordpress.com/2 ... tation.pdf

plinth857 · Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:59 pm

masseybrown wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
From enilria's weekly list:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1372777&p=19832087#p19831831

Take a look at the cited post. It pretty much predicts the end of CAK and YNG. CLE and PIT are squeezing them with better choices and more frequency.

Edit: the link isn't working. Try this: https://lintvwkbn.files.wordpress.com/2 ... tation.pdf

Very interesting presentation! Excellent points made.

What does this mean for network carriers and their operations at CAK? If the leisure carriers all withdraw from CAK, will the network carriers keep the same capacity, increase capacity, or pull back entirely?

swacle · Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:15 pm

Barring a swap, Southwest has a Max 8 scheduled to bring in 4785 from MDW at 1555.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA4 ... 71005/1845

plinth857 · Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:12 pm

With Cleveland Indians in the baseball playoffs again, does that ever result in an upgauge of equipment from the opponent city? Or is it too "short notice" for such things to happen?

Osubuckeyes · Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:26 pm

plinth857 wrote:
With Cleveland Indians in the baseball playoffs again, does that ever result in an upgauge of equipment from the opponent city? Or is it too "short notice" for such things to happen?

Baseball typically doesn't drive the travel volume that NFL or NCAAF do. Mostly they just jack the prices up on existing flights between the two competing cities. I suspect there will be plenty of Yankees fans at Progressive Field later today though.

SgtBarone · Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:02 pm

CommutAir is moving its headquarters to North Olmsted, where it already has an office. Number of employees increasing from 138 to 217.

http://www.cleveland.com/north-olmsted/ ... ew_he.html

masseybrown · Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:40 pm

^ Things that make you go hmmmmm. I figured CommutAir would eventually move what's still in North Olmsted to somewhere in northern Virginia. Maybe they'll take over ExpressJet's maintenance hangar as well and return to flying CLE trips.

Maybe also UA does have some lingering interest in CLE. It was Kirby's regime at AA that he added DCA and LGA to AA's CLE schedule.

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