ncflyer wrote:

On a separate note can we all agree that the steady state post hub CLE is boring and disappointing? Just not a lot of action in CLE anymore-- sorry I just can't get excited about non-daily service from Allegiant.

Allegiant, what a ho-hummer ... A couple of years ago we'd have been talking about it for weeks. But times change and, you're right, there hasn't been a lot to talk about lately.

My hope, that AA with its gate change may have a few surprises for CLE, was misplaced. Apparently, gates C10 and C14 were abandoned by UA a year ago; they just never got around to taking the signs down until lately. Those two plus C2 will be common use gates, available to B6, AA, or UA as needs may arise.

Lately the good news has been mostly a lack of bad news.

Slightly good news: BKL with just one route kept getting busier as the year went on. 16,418 total pax for 2016; that makes it bigger than most airports in the EAS program. And B6's December load factor was slightly over 88%. BOS seems to be a hot spot lately with even UA (the only CLE carrier that continues to show y-o-y passenger declines) adding a frequency for the summer.

^Any news related to the new director? Hopefully the he'll replace the horrible existing Air Service Chief, and get CLE some airlines other than the likes of Allegiant, Spirit, & Co....to land some real transatlantic service.

Southwest has posted a website warning that CLE is going through a large-scale baggage modernization and that passengers should carefully observe signage. I guess that means your bag may not show up on its usual carousel. The airport hasn't posted a thing, has it? Maybe this accounts for AA delayed move to C.

masseybrown wrote:

Southwest has posted a website warning that CLE is going through a large-scale baggage modernization and that passengers should carefully observe signage. I guess that means your bag may not show up on its usual carousel. The airport hasn't posted a thing, has it? Maybe this accounts for AA delayed move to C.

Wasn't this Phase 2 of the RNC modernization project designed to eliminate the "take your bag to TSA" for all non UA operations? It's been a long time since I've heard about it, so I forget. There are several bid packages out in the contractor community for Hopkins now and this may very well be part of it. I assumed they were for the AA move, but it might be this or both.

Separately, I landed at CLE in Concourse A yesterday. It's so sad that it exists when Concourse D is so much nicer. The new director needs to figure out a way to make CLE D & C only + a connector.

^The new director has been very quiet. I hope its just him figuring what things to do...

Separately, I landed at CLE in Concourse A yesterday. It's so sad that it exists when Concourse D is so much nicer. The new director needs to figure out a way to make CLE D & C only + a connector.

Fun2fly I couldn't agree more. Since I'm usually flying in and out of CLE aboard Delta Air Lines or its affiliates I have seen more of Concourse B than I would like. I suspect some of the original 1956 terminal is still incorporated in the structure of that concourse. As for Concourse D, big city politics and the $$$ that are flowing from United Airlines to city hall will leave that well-designed modern terminal a dormant airport display for years.

highflier92660 wrote:

Separately, I landed at CLE in Concourse A yesterday. It's so sad that it exists when Concourse D is so much nicer. The new director needs to figure out a way to make CLE D & C only + a connector.

Fun2fly I couldn't agree more. Since I'm usually flying in and out of CLE aboard Delta Air Lines or its affiliates I have seen more of Concourse B than I would like. I suspect some of the original 1956 terminal is still incorporated in the structure of that concourse. As for Concourse D, big city politics and the $$$ that are flowing from United Airlines to city hall will leave that well-designed modern terminal a dormant airport display for years.

Hiding behind some outdated UA agreement is not leadership. I realize we had an interim director forever so that was a lull period. If the new guy can't figure out how to use D, it would be unfathomable, especially if Trump makes good on his claim to offer Federal funding for the improvement of airport infrastructure. If there are $ available to do this from the Government, then it has to happen. I'm sure the business case on the efficiency of D vs. maintaining A&B is a significant benefit to making this happen more than likely on its own.

I know everyone on the board wants TATL service or a hotel or more parking, but the 99% of flyers would benefit from this being prioritized first. Let's hope we have a real leader to make it happen in the next 5 years.

With the new leader, will we also have a new CLE Strategic Plan forthcoming?

fun2fly wrote:

With the new leader, will we also have a new CLE Strategic Plan forthcoming?

Post-UA dehubbing announcement and pre-Ricky Smith departure, the airline announced a Master Plan rewrite. It never happened. I suspect management was overwhelmed by the turmoil of those two events. Now that there is a new man and some decent measure of financial stability, we'll probably see another attempt at updating the old one.

I don't think the airport can afford to let UA off the lease hook for D until the debt on it is significantly paid down. (It would be nice if those bonds have a sinking fund requirement, but I don't believe they do.) If they did let UA skate and tore down A or B or both, they'd be in a financial hole again. As things stand, essentially all available space is producing revenue and they don't want to give up any with debt at its current level.

Is A really that bad? I flew in and out of it a few months ago (AA from/to DCA) and it seemed clean, bright, and reasonably busy - not nearly as claustrophobic as B with its dark colors and low ceilings.

masseybrown wrote:

fun2fly wrote:

With the new leader, will we also have a new CLE Strategic Plan forthcoming?

I don't think the airport can afford to let UA off the lease hook for D until the debt on it is significantly paid down. (It would be nice if those bonds have a sinking fund requirement, but I don't believe they do.) If they did let UA skate and tore down A or B or both, they'd be in a financial hole again. As things stand, essentially all available space is producing revenue and they don't want to give up any with debt at its current level.

Is A really that bad? I flew in and out of it a few months ago (AA from/to DCA) and it seemed clean, bright, and reasonably busy - not nearly as claustrophobic as B with its dark colors and low ceilings.

On D and UAL, if they owe $100m over 8 years, run the time value of money $'s, discount it a bit and offer UA a buyout package so you can use the cash now. It's a good time for airlines generally speaking for cash flow purposes so it might make sense for UA. CLE would get cash now to pay for the D connector and lower operating costs in the future, but lower income due to the UAL agreement for D being dissolved. From a high level perspective, it sure seems like there's a way to figure something out.

As for A, compared to LGA Terminal B or DCA, it's probably nice!

Will Southwest manage to squeeze in a nonstop between Cleveland and Dallas Love Field, despite having limited room to expand at Dallas Love Field? United has discontinued DFW-CLE nonstop service, Frontier had briefly operated DFW-CLE but discontinued that route, and Spirit only operates DFW-CLE nonstop service seasonally.

Southwest might be able to do well on the DAL-CLE nonstop route if it operated that route, even if Frontier failed on that route, for the following reasons:

• Cleveland to Dallas is one of the largest markets not served nonstop from Dallas Love Field.
• Southwest has been in Cleveland for over 25 years and has always been in Dallas since it began operations back in 1971.
• The Southwest brand is familiar to customers in both the Dallas and Cleveland markets.
• American Airlines is currently the only airline to operate DFW-CLE nonstops year-round.
• Southwest can provide connecting service to destinations in Texas from Dallas Love Field that airlines other than Southwest, American, and United cannot provide.
• A DAL-CLE nonstop would provide competition that was lost with the discontinuation of United nonstop service between Cleveland and DFW Airport.

Nice night for freight. UPS shows an MD11, A306, and 752 to SDF along with the usual 3 FedEx

Any chance or rumors of Alaska starting to service to CLE? Also, DL bringing back SLC?

Frontier starts CLT service on April 21. I dont think they've served CLT from CLE before. Flight 1373 leaves for CLT at 1915 on Mon/Wed/Fri/Sat.

^^^ yeah, so doing a little research I found this: http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.s ... new_f.html

I had completely forgotten about the new service announcement. Nice to see San Diego starting too.

thomacf wrote:

Any chance or rumors of Alaska starting to service to CLE? Also, DL bringing back SLC?

Both would be great---is your source good?

greenair727 wrote:

thomacf wrote:

Any chance or rumors of Alaska starting to service to CLE? Also, DL bringing back SLC?

Both would be great---is your source good?

On the DL SLC side, I've been asking it for years, but going west from CLE seems to be mixed results. UA, F9 and WN make DEN work. AA didn't make it at PHX. SLC is one I'd like to see, but the MSP hub that does much of the same connections I think complicates things.

As for SEA, AS, WN or UA could make it work for sure seasonally like F9. DL could probably make it work year round with the hub there if timed for Asia, etc. UA (CO) ran it for years.

fun2fly wrote:

On the DL SLC side, I've been asking it for years, but going west from CLE seems to be mixed results. UA, F9 and WN make DEN work. AA didn't make it at PHX. SLC is one I'd like to see, but the MSP hub that does much of the same connections I think complicates things.

As for SEA, AS, WN or UA could make it work for sure seasonally like F9. DL could probably make it work year round with the hub there if timed for Asia, etc. UA (CO) ran it for years.

Once the CSeries aircraft come in, DL will probably add a lot of these thinner SLC/SEA-Midwest routes such as CLE/CMH/PIT-SLC/SEA. Personally, SLC has always been my go-to hub for DL (besides CVG of course ), mostly for its connections to the West Coast. In addition, I have been using SEA a ton recently as its is great for Asia itineraries. DEN on UA should serve this purpose (I have never flown UA as I am DL loyal, so I don't know what the experience is like), but having DL would help prices and provide even more options.

greenair727 wrote:

thomacf wrote:

Any chance or rumors of Alaska starting to service to CLE? Also, DL bringing back SLC?

Both would be great---is your source good?

I don't think he was saying he is hearing that, he was asking if anyone else has heard anything about them.

CLE's new boss Kennedy seems to be making some progress in little (but important) things. I hear positive stories. Even the airport website, formerly a seemingly random hodge-podge of "stuff", is becoming better organized. To do list: prune some of the old news references that no longer apply and delete an old Master Plan that no longer bears any resemblance to the real world.

Anyone know what's the reason behind the extra UPS capacity this week? 2 MD-11's to SDF last night, and I'm pretty sure there was an extra A300 or 2 in this week as well. I heard a couple of 9000 flight numbers assigned to both A300s and MD11's.

masseybrown wrote:

CLE's new boss Kennedy seems to be making some progress in little (but important) things. I hear positive stories. Even the airport website, formerly a seemingly random hodge-podge of "stuff", is becoming better organized. To do list: prune some of the old news references that no longer apply and delete an old Master Plan that no longer bears any resemblance to the real world.

Any stories on the air service development or FIS front?

masseybrown wrote:

CLE's new boss Kennedy seems to be making some progress in little (but important) things. I hear positive stories. Even the airport website, formerly a seemingly random hodge-podge of "stuff", is becoming better organized. To do list: prune some of the old news references that no longer apply and delete an old Master Plan that no longer bears any resemblance to the real world.

I agree about the positive progress. I have to admit that the airport history page is the most up-to-date I have ever seen it. Monthly stats to January. Yearly data and rankings are to 2016.

It's nice CLE has a director who used to work at a real global airport and is not just another city employee.

chrisjake wrote:

Anyone know what's the reason behind the extra UPS capacity this week? 2 MD-11's to SDF last night, and I'm pretty sure there was an extra A300 or 2 in this week as well. I heard a couple of 9000 flight numbers assigned to both A300s and MD11's.

More or less concurrently (for the last month or so?), Fedex has reduced capacity to IND from an A306 to a 757. Maybe a big customer switched?

masseybrown wrote:

chrisjake wrote:

Anyone know what's the reason behind the extra UPS capacity this week? 2 MD-11's to SDF last night, and I'm pretty sure there was an extra A300 or 2 in this week as well. I heard a couple of 9000 flight numbers assigned to both A300s and MD11's.

More or less concurrently (for the last month or so?), Fedex has reduced capacity to IND from an A306 to a 757. Maybe a big customer switched?

I wondered if maybe they had an MD-11 go down on MX while here. This morning it was the usual Fri morning 757 and A300 inbound. The single MD-11 usually returns Monday or Tuesday morning.

FedEx is just right-sizing the aircraft. The A310 was a great fit for CLE-IND but there's only a few left in the fleet, so a 757 it is. Too bad there isn't a 757-300F because that would be a true 1 to 1 replacement for the Baby 'Bus.

^ In that case, maybe it's Cleveland Heart Lab again. They've put some new proprietary tests on the market over the last six months.

Looking at Q3 2016 O&D data for CLE there are some interesting figures. Chicago, LA, and NYC have nearly the same O&D from CLE.

LAX had the highest daily volume of O&D pax from CLE at about 960 pax both ways combined.

CLE-BOS had 749 pax both ways combined compared to CLE-LGA at 635.

New York area airports combined come in at about 1,141 pax. Los Angeles area airports combined come in at 1,117. Chicago area airports combined come in at 1,238.

CLE-DEN was 799
CLE-SFO was 603
CLE-SEA was 372
CLE-PDX was 229
CLE-IAH was 228

F9 only flew to SEA and PDX for half of the the third quarter and less than daily. SEA and PDX combined are over 600 both ways combined. With that volume it's hard to believe that AS or DL haven't launched SEA-CLE yet.

^thats interesting that NYC, LAX and CHI are all so close. I remember when NYC was by far the leader. (that was a long time ago!). How do these cities in Q3 2016 compare to Q3 of another year, say 2013 or 2014?

greenair727 wrote:

^thats interesting that NYC, LAX and CHI are all so close. I remember when NYC was by far the leader. (that was a long time ago!). How do these cities in Q3 2016 compare to Q3 of another year, say 2013 or 2014?

LA area airports in Q3 2013 were 760 both ways combined.

NYC area airports in Q3 2013 were 1,062 both ways combined.

Chicago area airports in Q3 2013 were 1,129 both ways combined.

NYC and Chicago are up nominally, but LA has grown enormously with an ULCC presence.

Likewise, look at Denver. Before F9 entered in Q3 2012, CLE-DEN was 336. In 2013 it rose to 482. In 2016 with UA, F9, and WN it's at almost 800.

Similarly with CLE-BOS, in Q3 2013 it was 268 both ways combined. That jumped to 749 in Q3 of 2016.

In 3 years O&D traffic to BOS from CLE nearly tripled. O&D to DEN more than doubled in 4 years. The LCC and ULCC carriers have stimulated a lot of demand at CLE to the markets they fly.

Looking at what B6 did to the CLE-BOS market, I could only imagine the effect they'd have if they started 2x daily CLE-JFK.

lakeeffect wrote:

Looking at Q3 2016 O&D data for CLE there are some interesting figures.

LAX had the highest daily volume of O&D pax from CLE at about 960 pax both ways combined.

That number may be big enough to draw AA back into the market.

masseybrown wrote:

lakeeffect wrote:

Looking at Q3 2016 O&D data for CLE there are some interesting figures.

LAX had the highest daily volume of O&D pax from CLE at about 960 pax both ways combined.

That number may be big enough to draw AA back into the market.

I have heard rumors that both AA and DL have contemplated LAX - CLE in the past couple of years, so hopefully these pax figures will get them to pull the trigger.

^^ I'll take it as more competition on a route I fly often can't hurt, but I would love to see Alaska start LAX-CLE along with SEA-CLE before Delta gets to it.

chrisjake wrote:

^^ I'll take it as more competition on a route I fly often can't hurt, but I would love to see Alaska start LAX-CLE along with SEA-CLE before Delta gets to it.

One sure way to get DL to launch those routes is for AS to launch them

chrisjake wrote:

^^ I'll take it as more competition on a route I fly often can't hurt, but I would love to see Alaska start LAX-CLE along with SEA-CLE before Delta gets to it.

Remember also that CO flew 4x daily in the summer some years when it was a hub so there's always been volume. UA kept others out in the past with the hub I'd guess, but now we see the door open for DL/AA/AS. I can't see AA since PHX didn't work. DL it seems more likely that they'd launch SLC first, no? AS it seems more likely they'd launch SEA first, no?

Personally, I'd prefer new destinations vs. new competition.

Separately, Norwegian announced some new routes today. I wonder if CLE was ever discussed? It's better than PIT's WOW, but not a true daily TATL hub connector service.

fun2fly wrote:

Separately, Norwegian announced some new routes today. I wonder if CLE was ever discussed? It's better than PIT's WOW, but not a true daily TATL hub connector service.

If Cleveland's business interests really wanted daily TATL service from a legacy carrier, I think they would have scraped up the cash for a subsidy by now. It hasn't happened.

More and more I think the WOW type service is exactly what CLE needs. LCC service at least gets the city on the int'l map and provides additional cash generation since it would attract out-of-the-area passengers who will often need parking, lodging, food, etc. LCCs also appeal to students and millenials, which the city would like to attract and retain.

I am not native to Cleveland, but I think AS could have great potential in CLE and frankly I am surprised that they haven't added service. There is only seasonal service to SEA, no service to PDX, limited service to SFO and the DAL/DFW, so it looks good on paper.

^I think CLE would be an excellent Eastern US hub for AS with a MX and crew base. From CLE, AS could serve SFO, LAX, SEA, PDX, SAN, MCI and perhaps a few points east, like PVD, ALB, JFK, MIA. Not sure if AS has enough equipment for such an expansion, but CLE would be a great location for them for such growth. They could have all of Concourse "D", with the gates reconfigured from the ERJ days.

greenair727 wrote:

^I think CLE would be an excellent Eastern US hub for AS with a MX and crew base. From CLE, AS could serve SFO, LAX, SEA, PDX, SAN, MCI and perhaps a few points east, like PVD, ALB, JFK, MIA. Not sure if AS has enough equipment for such an expansion, but CLE would be a great location for them for such growth. They could have all of Concourse "D", with the gates reconfigured from the ERJ days.

I think CMH would be a better eastern/midwest hub for AS considering it has weak connections to the west coast. Not saying AS couldn't have a significant presence in CLE, but CLE already has much stronger connections to the west coast than CMH does.

^Precisely why CLE makes sense as there's already a strong O&D base to the west coast. Plus CLE has an air market population of 4.0-4.5 million people--a strong foundation for an AS hub.

^my only thing to add to this is, would AS rather put a hub more center where all their (regional carrier's) E175's can fly to both coasts, especially the west coast? It can't make west coast to CLE/IND/CMH, etc. They seem to be adding a lot more of those planes, so to me it would make more sense to put a hub somewhere that can use them to anywhere.

Other options: MCI (although they have layout issues), STL (although they basically have a WN hub) and MSP (although I don't know if they could make another hub work), might make more sense because they have a larger passenger count/location. MKE also has smaller counts so it might be too small, but location wise it would work. All those would be in range for E190's both ways I would think.

All that said, I am not sure I see them putting a hub that isn't on a coast.

What concourse does allegiant operate out of?

TheGeordielad wrote:

What concourse does allegiant operate out of?

Concourse A I believe

TheGeordielad wrote:

What concourse does allegiant operate out of?

Concourse A. It will be all LCC's soon when AA moves. Any firm move date for AA yet?

Jshank83 wrote:

^my only thing to add to this is, would AS rather put a hub more center where all their (regional carrier's) E175's can fly to both coasts, especially the west coast? It can't make west coast to CLE/IND/CMH, etc. They seem to be adding a lot more of those planes, so to me it would make more sense to put a hub somewhere that can use them to anywhere.

Other options: MCI (although they have layout issues), STL (although they basically have a WN hub) and MSP (although I don't know if they could make another hub work), might make more sense because they have a larger passenger count/location. MKE also has smaller counts so it might be too small, but location wise it would work. All those would be in range for E190's both ways I would think.

All that said, I am not sure I see them putting a hub that isn't on a coast.

The density of the US population is still on the East Coast. CLE is the perfect location (over CMH, IND, MCI, STL, etc.) as its close to the East Coast--less than 500 miles from NYC---yet has a big population base---much bigger than CMH or IND or the others---at 4.5MM. All trips to the west of CLE could be mainline service---and feeder routes from the east could be E175s. Plus, CLE is a far bigger business city than CMH/IND---so greater support for biz class fares.

greenair727 wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

^my only thing to add to this is, would AS rather put a hub more center where all their (regional carrier's) E175's can fly to both coasts, especially the west coast? It can't make west coast to CLE/IND/CMH, etc. They seem to be adding a lot more of those planes, so to me it would make more sense to put a hub somewhere that can use them to anywhere.

Other options: MCI (although they have layout issues), STL (although they basically have a WN hub) and MSP (although I don't know if they could make another hub work), might make more sense because they have a larger passenger count/location. MKE also has smaller counts so it might be too small, but location wise it would work. All those would be in range for E190's both ways I would think.

All that said, I am not sure I see them putting a hub that isn't on a coast.

The density of the US population is still on the East Coast. CLE is the perfect location (over CMH, IND, MCI, STL, etc.) as its close to the East Coast--less than 500 miles from NYC---yet has a big population base---much bigger than CMH or IND or the others---at 4.5MM. All trips to the west of CLE could be mainline service---and feeder routes from the east could be E175s. Plus, CLE is a far bigger business city than CMH/IND---so greater support for biz class fares.

I agree with what you are saying, but CLE already has flights to SEA, SAN, SFO, LAX, and PDX so they are going to be less likely to add significant service to the west coast. Which population base are you talking about, Cleveland's metro is shrinking and is only 14,000 larger than CMH and 51,000 larger than IND which are both growing rapidly. CLE already has an overabundance of flights to the Northeast on UA, DL, B6, NK, and AA. This is not to say AS shouldn't go to CLE, because I still believe they can add routes there, I just don't see it viable as a hub for AS. MKE and even CMH seem more ideal, MKE only has WN on flights to LAX , SFO, and SAN, and AS already has flights to SEA and PDX from MKE, plus MKE is relatively weak on service to the east coast (plus the added bonus that both coasts could be served by E175s). CMH is a better than CLE in that there are no non-stops to SEA, PDX, or SFO. AS already has service to IND, and it is very unlikely they would set up a major operation there. I guess I will take your word for it, that CLE is a bigger business city than CMH/IND but do you have any evidence to back that up.

Midwestindy wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

^my only thing to add to this is, would AS rather put a hub more center where all their (regional carrier's) E175's can fly to both coasts, especially the west coast? It can't make west coast to CLE/IND/CMH, etc. They seem to be adding a lot more of those planes, so to me it would make more sense to put a hub somewhere that can use them to anywhere.

Other options: MCI (although they have layout issues), STL (although they basically have a WN hub) and MSP (although I don't know if they could make another hub work), might make more sense because they have a larger passenger count/location. MKE also has smaller counts so it might be too small, but location wise it would work. All those would be in range for E190's both ways I would think.

All that said, I am not sure I see them putting a hub that isn't on a coast.

The density of the US population is still on the East Coast. CLE is the perfect location (over CMH, IND, MCI, STL, etc.) as its close to the East Coast--less than 500 miles from NYC---yet has a big population base---much bigger than CMH or IND or the others---at 4.5MM. All trips to the west of CLE could be mainline service---and feeder routes from the east could be E175s. Plus, CLE is a far bigger business city than CMH/IND---so greater support for biz class fares.

I agree with what you are saying, but CLE already has flights to SEA, SAN, SFO, LAX, and PDX so they are going to be less likely to add significant service to the west coast. Which population base are you talking about, Cleveland's metro is shrinking and is only 14,000 larger than CMH and 51,000 larger than IND which are both growing rapidly. CLE already has an overabundance of flights to the Northeast on UA, DL, B6, NK, and AA. This is not to say AS shouldn't go to CLE, because I still believe they can add routes there, I just don't see it viable as a hub for AS. MKE and even CMH seem more ideal, MKE only has WN on flights to LAX , SFO, and SAN, and AS already has flights to SEA and PDX from MKE, plus MKE is relatively weak on service to the east coast (plus the added bonus that both coasts could be served by E175s). CMH is a better than CLE in that there are no non-stops to SEA, PDX, or SFO. AS already has service to IND, and it is very unlikely they would set up a major operation there. I guess I will take your word for it, that CLE is a bigger business city than CMH/IND but do you have any evidence to back that up.

"CMH is a better than CLE in that there are no non-stops to SEA, PDX, or SFO." CLE has the market demand. CMH doesn't. So why put a hub in a place with lower O&D?

"Cleveland's metro is only 14,000 larger than CMH" Not so. Cleveland gets a bad rap in the press, but its still one the top 20 US cities. Columbus isn't--and a lot of its population is students at OSU. How many of them are also business people flying out west? None, if any.

"I guess I will take your word for it, that CLE is a bigger business city than CMH/IND but do you have any evidence to back that up." Sure:

GDP by Air Market (2015)
Cleveland air market $201.7B
Indianapolis air market $130.1B
Columbus, air market $124.4B

Source: US Bureau of Economic Analysis

greenair727 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

The density of the US population is still on the East Coast. CLE is the perfect location (over CMH, IND, MCI, STL, etc.) as its close to the East Coast--less than 500 miles from NYC---yet has a big population base---much bigger than CMH or IND or the others---at 4.5MM. All trips to the west of CLE could be mainline service---and feeder routes from the east could be E175s. Plus, CLE is a far bigger business city than CMH/IND---so greater support for biz class fares.

I agree with what you are saying, but CLE already has flights to SEA, SAN, SFO, LAX, and PDX so they are going to be less likely to add significant service to the west coast. Which population base are you talking about, Cleveland's metro is shrinking and is only 14,000 larger than CMH and 51,000 larger than IND which are both growing rapidly. CLE already has an overabundance of flights to the Northeast on UA, DL, B6, NK, and AA. This is not to say AS shouldn't go to CLE, because I still believe they can add routes there, I just don't see it viable as a hub for AS. MKE and even CMH seem more ideal, MKE only has WN on flights to LAX , SFO, and SAN, and AS already has flights to SEA and PDX from MKE, plus MKE is relatively weak on service to the east coast (plus the added bonus that both coasts could be served by E175s). CMH is a better than CLE in that there are no non-stops to SEA, PDX, or SFO. AS already has service to IND, and it is very unlikely they would set up a major operation there. I guess I will take your word for it, that CLE is a bigger business city than CMH/IND but do you have any evidence to back that up.

"CMH is a better than CLE in that there are no non-stops to SEA, PDX, or SFO." CLE has the market demand. CMH doesn't. So why put a hub in a place with lower O&D?

"Cleveland's metro is only 14,000 larger than CMH" Not so. Cleveland gets a bad rap in the press, but its still one the top 20 US cities. Columbus isn't--and a lot of its population is students at OSU. How many of them are also business people flying out west? None, if any.

"I guess I will take your word for it, that CLE is a bigger business city than CMH/IND but do you have any evidence to back that up." Sure:

GDP by Air Market (2015)
Cleveland air market $201.7B
Indianapolis air market $130.1B
Columbus, air market $124.4B

Source: US Bureau of Economic Analysis

CLE "used to" have market demand, if it really had the type of market demand you are talking about AS would already have flights(which IND already has) to CLE and United would still have a hub in CLE. An airline would add flights in CMH over CLE, because CLE already has the flights, new carriers are less likely to add service to an airport that has slightly higher O&D but already has multiple established carriers on a desired route, rather than going to an airport with slightly lower O&D but having no competition on a desired route. Cleveland is not even close to the top 20 US cities in terms of population, the US census bureau estimated that in 2015 Cleveland had 388,072 people which is a 2.2% drop from 2010 and a 17% drop since 2000, which ranked 51st in the United States in terms of population. The 2015 estimate for Indianapolis was 853, 173, 14th largest, and Columbus at 850, 106 ,15th largest, both growing at 4% and 8% respectively. Ohio state only makes up 7.7% of the columbus population, and students and lecturers from around the world and country fly into columbus to study and teach, so that is even more reason to add service to Columbus. I couldn't find your statistic online, could you post a link to it, I have never seen that static before so I am very interested considering IND has a higher GDP than CLE, and the GDP of CMH is about equal with that of CLE. But I would love to be proven wrong!

Midwestindy wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

I agree with what you are saying, but CLE already has flights to SEA, SAN, SFO, LAX, and PDX so they are going to be less likely to add significant service to the west coast. Which population base are you talking about, Cleveland's metro is shrinking and is only 14,000 larger than CMH and 51,000 larger than IND which are both growing rapidly. CLE already has an overabundance of flights to the Northeast on UA, DL, B6, NK, and AA. This is not to say AS shouldn't go to CLE, because I still believe they can add routes there, I just don't see it viable as a hub for AS. MKE and even CMH seem more ideal, MKE only has WN on flights to LAX , SFO, and SAN, and AS already has flights to SEA and PDX from MKE, plus MKE is relatively weak on service to the east coast (plus the added bonus that both coasts could be served by E175s). CMH is a better than CLE in that there are no non-stops to SEA, PDX, or SFO. AS already has service to IND, and it is very unlikely they would set up a major operation there. I guess I will take your word for it, that CLE is a bigger business city than CMH/IND but do you have any evidence to back that up.

"CMH is a better than CLE in that there are no non-stops to SEA, PDX, or SFO." CLE has the market demand. CMH doesn't. So why put a hub in a place with lower O&D?

"Cleveland's metro is only 14,000 larger than CMH" Not so. Cleveland gets a bad rap in the press, but its still one the top 20 US cities. Columbus isn't--and a lot of its population is students at OSU. How many of them are also business people flying out west? None, if any.

"I guess I will take your word for it, that CLE is a bigger business city than CMH/IND but do you have any evidence to back that up." Sure:

GDP by Air Market (2015)
Cleveland air market $201.7B
Indianapolis air market $130.1B
Columbus, air market $124.4B

Source: US Bureau of Economic Analysis

CLE "used to" have market demand, if it really had the type of market demand you are talking about AS would already have flights(which IND already has) to CLE and United would still have a hub in CLE. An airline would add flights in CMH over CLE, because CLE already has the flights, new carriers are less likely to add service to an airport that has slightly higher O&D but already has multiple established carriers on a desired route, rather than going to an airport with slightly lower O&D but having no competition on a desired route. Cleveland is not even close to the top 20 US cities in terms of population, the US census bureau estimated that in 2015 Cleveland had 388,072 people which is a 2.2% drop from 2010 and a 17% drop since 2000, which ranked 51st in the United States in terms of population. The 2015 estimate for Indianapolis was 853, 173, 14th largest, and Columbus at 850, 106 ,15th largest, both growing at 4% and 8% respectively. Ohio state only makes up 7.7% of the columbus population, and students and lecturers from around the world and country fly into columbus to study and teach, so that is even more reason to add service to Columbus. I couldn't find your statistic online, could you post a link to it, I have never seen that static before so I am very interested considering IND has a higher GDP than CLE, and the GDP of CMH is about equal with that of CLE. But I would love to be proven wrong!

You're talking about population of just the city proper, which doesn't make sense if you're trying to understand demand potential from a given airport. You need to be looking at MSA or even CSA numbers if you're trying to determine the population base with regard to air service demand.

"the US census bureau estimated that in 2015 Cleveland had 388,072 people"

Yes, that's true. But air demand for a city is not limited to those within the limits of City proper. The catchment area for any city is the surrounding area. I provided the GDP for the catchment area, not for the activity within municipal borders. As a global center of business, Cleveland--and by that I mean the Cleveland area--is far more important and a lucrative to airlines than is Columbus.

"United would still have a hub in CLE"

This isn't true. UA left, because it merged with CO and suddenly had hubs in Chicago, CLE, IAD, AND EWR--all within less than 500 miles of each other. The point of the merger was to eliminate staff--and to accomplish this, they closed CLE, which was a viable and profitable hub for CO for years.

greenair727 wrote:

"the US census bureau estimated that in 2015 Cleveland had 388,072 people"

Yes, that's true. But air demand for a city is not limited to those within the limits of City proper. The catchment area for any city is the surrounding area. I provided the GDP for the catchment area, not for the activity within municipal borders. As a global center of business, Cleveland--and by that I mean the Cleveland area--is far more important and a lucrative to airlines than is Columbus.

"United would still have a hub in CLE"

This isn't true. UA left, because it merged with CO and suddenly had hubs in Chicago, CLE, IAD, AND EWR--all within less than 500 miles of each other. The point of the merger was to eliminate staff--and to accomplish this, they closed CLE, which was a viable and profitable hub for CO for years.

flyguy89 wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

"CMH is a better than CLE in that there are no non-stops to SEA, PDX, or SFO." CLE has the market demand. CMH doesn't. So why put a hub in a place with lower O&D?

"Cleveland's metro is only 14,000 larger than CMH" Not so. Cleveland gets a bad rap in the press, but its still one the top 20 US cities. Columbus isn't--and a lot of its population is students at OSU. How many of them are also business people flying out west? None, if any.

"I guess I will take your word for it, that CLE is a bigger business city than CMH/IND but do you have any evidence to back that up." Sure:

GDP by Air Market (2015)
Cleveland air market $201.7B
Indianapolis air market $130.1B
Columbus, air market $124.4B

Source: US Bureau of Economic Analysis

CLE "used to" have market demand, if it really had the type of market demand you are talking about AS would already have flights(which IND already has) to CLE and United would still have a hub in CLE. An airline would add flights in CMH over CLE, because CLE already has the flights, new carriers are less likely to add service to an airport that has slightly higher O&D but already has multiple established carriers on a desired route, rather than going to an airport with slightly lower O&D but having no competition on a desired route. Cleveland is not even close to the top 20 US cities in terms of population, the US census bureau estimated that in 2015 Cleveland had 388,072 people which is a 2.2% drop from 2010 and a 17% drop since 2000, which ranked 51st in the United States in terms of population. The 2015 estimate for Indianapolis was 853, 173, 14th largest, and Columbus at 850, 106 ,15th largest, both growing at 4% and 8% respectively. Ohio state only makes up 7.7% of the columbus population, and students and lecturers from around the world and country fly into columbus to study and teach, so that is even more reason to add service to Columbus. I couldn't find your statistic online, could you post a link to it, I have never seen that static before so I am very interested considering IND has a higher GDP than CLE, and the GDP of CMH is about equal with that of CLE. But I would love to be proven wrong!

You're talking about population of just the city proper, which doesn't make sense if you're trying to understand demand potential from a given airport. You need to be looking at MSA or even CSA numbers if you're trying to determine the population base with regard to air service demand.

Fine if you want to play it like that Indianapolis is ranked 47th by highest-income metro populations, Columbus 57th, Cleveland ranked 85th, important statistic because it is the highest earning portion of the population who are actually flying. According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/183 ... tro-areas/ Indianapolis is ranked 27th by GMP (Gross Metropolitan Product) with 135.5 billion and Cleveland ranked 29th with 129.3 billion and Columbus ranked 32nd with 126.5 billion. Another interesting fact http://www.best-cities.org/2014/best-pe ... t-2014.pdf, this was a study done that ranked the best performing metropolitan areas in the country (using job growth, wage growth, short-term job growth, high-tech job growth, high-tech GDP concentration, and number of high-tech industries within the metro, e.t.c). The Indianapolis metro ranked 26th, the Columbus metro ranked 41st, and the Cleveland metro ranked 133rd in the US! Those are the facts!