What's Going In CLE - Part 14

masseybrown · Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:40 am

According to their website two seats are still bookable on WOW's first flight.

Jshank83 · Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:40 am

masseybrown wrote:
According to their website two seats are still bookable on WOW's first flight.

That is just 2 left at that price. Not total. You can put in the max (nine) and it's still available.

greenair727 · Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:05 pm

sure is taking FI a while to load their CLE flights.

masseybrown · Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:29 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
According to their website two seats are still bookable on WOW's first flight.

That is just 2 left at that price. Not total. You can put in the max (nine) and it's still available.

Right. For some reason the other fare classes wouldn't load when I checked.

flymco753 · Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:38 pm

FI is probably waiting on the MAX, perfect aircraft for CLE. Why use the 757/767 on range inside of WWs capabilities.

fun2fly · Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:11 pm

flymco753 wrote:
FI is probably waiting on the MAX, perfect aircraft for CLE. Why use the 757/767 on range inside of WWs capabilities.

FI jumped out to be the first to announce, but is missing all the first mover advantage sales. Seems odd, you can always change the A/C. I'd like to book FI so I guess I'll have to wait.

masseybrown · Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:13 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
According to their website two seats are still bookable on WOW's first flight.

That is just 2 left at that price. Not total. You can put in the max (nine) and it's still available.

Today, it appears that 17 out of 200 seats are sold, or at least blocked on WW's first flight.

Meanwhile over at Icelandair, they have entered CLE in the booking engine and appear to be offering 5 (not the announced 4) flights a week, S, M, T, W, and F, commencing May 16 using 752's, departing at 2020. Inbound flights arrive at 1915. The 2020 CLE departure, after a one hour fifteen minute connection in KEF, arrives LHR at 1145, for one example.

greenair727 · Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:15 pm

^5! that's great. just priced out a ticket for a 4-5 day trip in June to KEF was $500 and CDG was $831, based on cheapest available. Not bad at all!

ncflyer · Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:53 pm

This is great news, can't wait to play around with connecting possibilities on that bank-- hopefully better than such a late departure on WOW. Isn't it interesting-- they are only scheduling 5 more minutes for turnaround than WOW. Personally when I book international flights I like to see a little more slack in the system. Maybe they pad the scheduled flight times.

flymco753 · Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:32 am

Still plenty of time to switch the 757's to the 737 MAX 9's, the MAX 9 would be a great aircraft for CLE-KEF, I would think that using the 757/767 would be used on routes WW aren't capable of reaching.

masseybrown · Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:58 pm

The five days Icelandair has chosed to operate from CLE makes a very business-friendly schedule in both directions. I'll bet they got some corporate promises from CLE companies. Saga Class fares, often as little as a third of regular business class, are another appeal.

SgtBarone · Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:14 pm

Is G4 not resuming service to AZA and VPS from CLE? I can't select them as options anymore on the website and G4's is taking reservations through May 15, 2018 for all other destinations. They still appear on the routes page, however.

cvgComair · Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:59 pm

SgtBarone wrote:
Is G4 not resuming service to AZA and VPS from CLE? I can't select them as options anymore on the website and G4's is taking reservations through May 15, 2018 for all other destinations. They still appear on the routes page, however.

G4 is very slow to remove routes from their route map. Since they are still not on the schedule, my guess is that the routes will not be resuming.

CLEguy · Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:47 pm

masseybrown wrote:
The five days Icelandair has chosed to operate from CLE makes a very business-friendly schedule in both directions. I'll bet they got some corporate promises from CLE companies. Saga Class fares, often as little as a third of regular business class, are another appeal.

There's an introductory fare sale going on now on Icelandair. Just booked CLE-KEF-TXL for only $480 all in round trip (around Memorial Day). Have to book by 9/14. I'm looking forward to giving them a shot.

masseybrown · Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:19 pm

Another benefit from the two Icelanders is the large number of one-stop cities (via KEF) that would be two-stop via other US hubs. I counted 24 cities that will now be one-stop away, depending on which hub was considered. Admittedly there isn't a huge demand for CLE-TRD (Trondheim, Norway). In the aggregate, however, it's nice benefit for maybe 30 people a day; and when you need to put 200 people (WW) or 175 people (FI) on a plane, 30 is a helpful number.

Midwestindy · Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:11 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Another benefit from the two Icelanders is the large number of one-stop cities (via KEF) that would be two-stop via other US hubs. I counted 24 cities that will now be one-stop away, depending on which hub was considered. Admittedly there isn't a huge demand for CLE-TRD (Trondheim, Norway). In the aggregate, however, it's nice benefit for maybe 30 people a day; and when you need to put 200 people (WW) or 175 people (FI) on a plane, 30 is a helpful number.

What I'm confused, 30 people a day are not traveling from CLE-TRD.... Maybe .2 people per day are traveling that route, at the most...

izbtmnhd · Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:39 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
Another benefit from the two Icelanders is the large number of one-stop cities (via KEF) that would be two-stop via other US hubs. I counted 24 cities that will now be one-stop away, depending on which hub was considered. Admittedly there isn't a huge demand for CLE-TRD (Trondheim, Norway). In the aggregate, however, it's nice benefit for maybe 30 people a day; and when you need to put 200 people (WW) or 175 people (FI) on a plane, 30 is a helpful number.

What I'm confused, 30 people a day are not traveling from CLE-TRD.... Maybe .2 people per day are traveling that route, at the most...

Why are you confused? He's counting the 24 cities that go from 2-stops to 1-stop not just TRD.

qf789 · Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:46 pm

Icelandair to send 737MAX8 to CLE from 16 May 18

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... es-in-s18/

fun2fly · Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:39 pm

qf789 wrote:
Icelandair to send 737MAX8 to CLE from 16 May 18

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... es-in-s18/

Pretty cool CLE is the first US city to get this from Iceland.

cledaybuck · Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:55 pm

United is celebrating 90 years at CLE.
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ss ... tes_9.html

Robert1010 · Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:23 pm

qf789 wrote:
Icelandair to send 737MAX8 to CLE from 16 May 18

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... es-in-s18/

Pretty disappointing really! Hope the flt gets upgauged at some point !

plinth857 · Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:55 pm

Robert1010 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Icelandair to send 737MAX8 to CLE from 16 May 18

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... es-in-s18/

Pretty disappointing really! Hope the flt gets upgauged at some point !

Why would this be disappointing? This is exactly why CLE can get these type of flights. Cleveland would not likely be able to fill a 777 or similar aircraft on these flights, whereas the smaller but longer range narrowbodies will be easier to fill and be profitable from Hopkins. Not to mention that these flights are going to be on brand new aircraft! Sounds good to me!

RJNUT · Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:22 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
United is celebrating 90 years at CLE.
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ss ... tes_9.html

My most vivid recollection of Hopkins was on the observation deck about 1965 , seeing my parents off to MSY on a United Caravelle(probably connecting in ATL to DL)

highflier92660 · Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:38 pm

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages ... w63-04.jpg

Although I consider myself a bit of an amateur airline historian I must thank masseybrown on another thread for enlightening me on this one. In 1963, four years after pure turbine jet flight was introduced to the American traveling public, TWA still soldiered-on with old Lockheed 1049G "Super G" constellation service between New York's Idlewild airport and the west coast with a stop at Cleveland. Flight 503 departed Cleveland Hopkins at 12:05 a.m. and eight mind-numbing hours later (probably in low-blower) the flight reached LAX before going on to SFO. This was during a time when United flew the same route with non-fan Boeing 720s and American flew Boeing 707s.

The day has probably passed for ferreting more information on this little known flight between CLE and California and the reasons behind TWA scheduling such an obsolete aircraft.

masseybrown · Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:17 pm

^ An old TWA vet told me that flight went out loaded with freight and mail every night. The passenger load was surprisingly good also at prop night-coach fares. The flight made money for them, not a lot; but it was better than parking the plane.

joeman · Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:16 pm

masseybrown wrote:
^ An old TWA vet told me that flight went out loaded with freight and mail every night. The passenger load was surprisingly good also at prop night-coach fares. The flight made money for them, not a lot; but it was better than parking the plane.

I happened across that website and that timetable once upon a time and quite surprised. In history past it stood out to me that TW had nonstop LAX flights from practically every large midwest city at some point...PIT, DTW, CMH, CVG, DAY, IND, didn't think CLE. And delving into timetable covers from websites/e-bay in the 1950's, it kinda seemed TW was leading the way with direct 1-stop service to LAX from CLE and DTW at some point, maybe prior to the nonstop CLE-LAX in mid/later fifties.

F9Fan · Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:54 pm

masseybrown wrote:
WOW already flies from their Iceland hub to most of the major cities/countries in Europe except Switzerland. Iceland is not a member of the EU (they applied but changed their minds); so I guess the usual transit security arrangements (get off. get checked, reboard) would apply.

Iceland is, however, part of the Schengen agreement. This means that once you land in Iceland, they will stamp your passport, and it will be valid for every country in Europe, except the U.K. and Ireland.

masseybrown · Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:35 pm

Quick look at DoT's June numbers: CLE's domestic boardings we up 11.6% y-o-y, compared to 2.9% nationally. Allegiant is looking healthier; load factor improved to 80.6%

masseybrown · Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:32 pm

Boardings for June:
G4 16.1K at 80.6% L/F no comparison to prior year
F9 60.5K at 81.6% L/F up 37.5%
B6 11.9K at 89.0% L/F flat on no capacity change
WN 68.4K at 87.6% L/F up11.7%
NK 34.6K at 82.4% L/F up 7.1%

Total boardings by low fare carriers totaled 191.5K - 46.3% of total airport traffic

ncflyer · Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:16 pm

Wow those are some interesting stats, particularly the 46% number, and they give me great hope for WOW to be successful on top of Icleandair. Given that CLE isn't really a growing metropolitan area, could it be any clearer that low airfares are stimulating new traffic at CLE (or preventing NE Ohioans from using CAK or driving to DTW/PIT/CAK).

Plus we have to remind ourselves that in 2016 there was all kind of extra business due to RNC planning, even ahead of the actual convention. Makes the growth even better. On the Ohio thread there's been some yammering from CMH and CVG fans that CLE is not growing--- well that is not really the case.

You see those B6 load factors and those WN load factors and you wonder why the heck both airlines seem so underserved in CLE. B6 will soon be up to 6 BOS flights in PIT for example. . . . (though like CLE they only serve FLL and BOS from PIT).

flymco753 · Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:45 pm

ncflyer wrote:
You see those B6 load factors and those WN load factors and you wonder why the heck both airlines seem so underserved in CLE. B6 will soon be up to 6 BOS flights in PIT for example. . . . (though like CLE they only serve FLL and BOS from PIT).

B6 won't do MCO because you have sufficient amount of flights to here in relation to PDEW. F9 already runs 2x daily and NK runs daily with G4 on the SFB end as well as UA for a legacy, the market size and B6 have no real correspondence. Plus B6 would probably want to do an A320 so there's potential loss for B6, now JFK OTOH I can see a daily E190, but the challenge would be AA and DL's existing service.

CLEguy · Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:02 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Boardings for June:
G4 16.1K at 80.6% L/F no comparison to prior year
F9 60.5K at 81.6% L/F up 37.5%
B6 11.9K at 89.0% L/F flat on no capacity change
WN 68.4K at 87.6% L/F up11.7%
NK 34.6K at 82.4% L/F up 7.1%

Total boardings by low fare carriers totaled 191.5K - 46.3% of total airport traffic

Are these detailed numbers readily publicly available online? If so, can you post a link? I just see figures in the link below that only give total passengers for the top 5 air carriers.

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports. ... rier=FACTS

masseybrown · Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:21 pm

CLEguy wrote:
Are these detailed numbers readily publicly available online? If so, can you post a link? I just see figures in the link below that only give total passengers for the top 5 air carriers.

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports. ... rier=FACTS

Right site, wrong division. Try:

https://www.transtats.bts.gov/Data_Elements.aspx?Data=1

masseybrown · Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:27 pm

If UA's schedules mid-February schedules are trustworthy, they are bringing back LAX, SFO, and DEN to almost summer capacity earlier this year.

LifetimeGS · Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:30 pm

Anyone have any hints if CLE will be in the F9 announcements Tuesday? SJC?

Midwestindy · Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:05 am

Quick question, how is the DL BDL-CLE route still around?
The 2017 LFs are pitiful
Jan BDL-CLE---28.8%
Feb BDL-CLE---40.6%
Mar BDL-CLE---49.3%
Apr BDL-CLE---64.7%
May BDL-CLE---60.7%
Jun BDL-CLE---61.4%

According to the Q1 data from 2016 average fares were only at $225, Q2 was $211....

joeman · Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:50 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Quick question, how is the DL BDL-CLE route still around?
The 2017 LFs are pitiful
Jan BDL-CLE---28.8%
Feb BDL-CLE---40.6%
Mar BDL-CLE---49.3%
Apr BDL-CLE---64.7%
May BDL-CLE---60.7%
Jun BDL-CLE---61.4%

According to the Q1 data from 2016 average fares were only at $225, Q2 was $211....

Not so good for a route that's been around since the 1960's often on a UA BDL-CLE-LAX routing and MO did CLE-BDL before their demise into AL. What other poor loads have you found not necessarily involving CLE?

Midwestindy · Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:18 am

joeman wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Quick question, how is the DL BDL-CLE route still around?
The 2017 LFs are pitiful
Jan BDL-CLE---28.8%
Feb BDL-CLE---40.6%
Mar BDL-CLE---49.3%
Apr BDL-CLE---64.7%
May BDL-CLE---60.7%
Jun BDL-CLE---61.4%

According to the Q1 data from 2016 average fares were only at $225, Q2 was $211....

Not so good for a route that's been around since the 1960's often on a UA BDL-CLE-LAX routing and MO did CLE-BDL before their demise into AL. What other poor loads have you found not necessarily involving CLE?

I'am intrigued to see what happens with the UA CLE-MKE route once WN hops in. Jan-Jun '17 LFs average out to 58.33%, meaning with WN in the market it will be extremely hard for UA to maintain this route, especially during the winter.

UA CLE-DCA is hurting as well with Jan-Jun '17 LF at 50.9%.

ncflyer · Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:48 am

I suspect BDL survives as long as it has because otherwise the plane would be sitting a lot of hours on the ground in CLE. It's an early AM or end of day flight to and from CLE on its way to/from MSP I believe.

I also think loads are just hurt terribly by such a horrific frequency. I go to BDL all the time but seldom, seldom do DLs paltry times work out. Therefore I take WN. Or I'll even fly a nonstop to BOS for a lower fare and far better times.

DCA loads have been terrible forever and all I can think is high airfares and a relatively easy drive keep potential flyers away. It is a real head scratcher to me why UA has had five frequencies for such a long time on this route, esp after the demise of the hub.

masseybrown · Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:55 am

LifetimeGS wrote:
Anyone have any hints if CLE will be in the F9 announcements Tuesday? SJC?

AUS next April.

plinth857 · Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:13 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Quick question, how is the DL BDL-CLE route still around?
The 2017 LFs are pitiful
Jan BDL-CLE---28.8%
Feb BDL-CLE---40.6%
Mar BDL-CLE---49.3%
Apr BDL-CLE---64.7%
May BDL-CLE---60.7%
Jun BDL-CLE---61.4%

According to the Q1 data from 2016 average fares were only at $225, Q2 was $211....

That's a good question. I've flown this route several times, each time ticketed on a government contract flight; GSA City Pair fare for it is $257 one way for the capacity controlled seats (I've never been in the situation where those seats were not available). Perhaps there is good corporate business or government business that help keep this afloat; the first class cabin is always full.

plinth857 · Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:15 pm

ncflyer wrote:
I suspect BDL survives as long as it has because otherwise the plane would be sitting a lot of hours on the ground in CLE. It's an early AM or end of day flight to and from CLE on its way to/from MSP I believe.

I also think loads are just hurt terribly by such a horrific frequency. I go to BDL all the time but seldom, seldom do DLs paltry times work out. Therefore I take WN. Or I'll even fly a nonstop to BOS for a lower fare and far better times.

DCA loads have been terrible forever and all I can think is high airfares and a relatively easy drive keep potential flyers away. It is a real head scratcher to me why UA has had five frequencies for such a long time on this route, esp after the demise of the hub.

The one time I flew this route as a connection, they ended up needing a couple of VDB's. Must have been an anomaly.

cledaybuck · Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:03 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Quick question, how is the DL BDL-CLE route still around?
The 2017 LFs are pitiful
Jan BDL-CLE---28.8%
Feb BDL-CLE---40.6%
Mar BDL-CLE---49.3%
Apr BDL-CLE---64.7%
May BDL-CLE---60.7%
Jun BDL-CLE---61.4%

According to the Q1 data from 2016 average fares were only at $225, Q2 was $211....

Are those fares one way or round trip?

izbtmnhd · Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:17 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
joeman wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Quick question, how is the DL BDL-CLE route still around?
The 2017 LFs are pitiful
Jan BDL-CLE---28.8%
Feb BDL-CLE---40.6%
Mar BDL-CLE---49.3%
Apr BDL-CLE---64.7%
May BDL-CLE---60.7%
Jun BDL-CLE---61.4%

According to the Q1 data from 2016 average fares were only at $225, Q2 was $211....

Not so good for a route that's been around since the 1960's often on a UA BDL-CLE-LAX routing and MO did CLE-BDL before their demise into AL. What other poor loads have you found not necessarily involving CLE?

I'am intrigued to see what happens with the UA CLE-MKE route once WN hops in. Jan-Jun '17 LFs average out to 58.33%, meaning with WN in the market it will be extremely hard for UA to maintain this route, especially during the winter.

UA CLE-DCA is hurting as well with Jan-Jun '17 LF at 50.9%.

Again, if they're filling up F or have a good contract it doesn't really matter what the LF is. How many times does this need to be repeated on this site?

masseybrown · Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:54 pm

plinth857 wrote:
Perhaps there is good corporate business or government business that help keep this afloat; the first class cabin is always full.

United Technologies has ops in both cities and they deal with NASA Glenn as well.

Midwestindy · Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:04 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:

Again, if they're filling up F or have a good contract it doesn't really matter what the LF is. How many times does this need to be repeated on this site?

Why are all your responses so snarky?It is a simple question, you have no idea whether F class is always full, you are basing that on anecdotal evidence, also you have no idea whether some of those are FFs who were upgraded but aren't paying the full F fare. If F was always full and Y was always empty why would average fares be so low?

izbtmnhd · Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:14 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:

Again, if they're filling up F or have a good contract it doesn't really matter what the LF is. How many times does this need to be repeated on this site?

Why are all your responses so snarky?It is a simple question, you have no idea whether F class is always full, you are basing that on anecdotal evidence, also you have no idea whether some of those are FFs who were upgraded but aren't paying the full F fare. If F was always full and Y was always empty why would average fares be so low?

Yet DL hasn't cancelled this route so what's your point?

Midwestindy · Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:42 pm

izbtmnhd wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:

Again, if they're filling up F or have a good contract it doesn't really matter what the LF is. How many times does this need to be repeated on this site?

Why are all your responses so snarky?It is a simple question, you have no idea whether F class is always full, you are basing that on anecdotal evidence, also you have no idea whether some of those are FFs who were upgraded but aren't paying the full F fare. If F was always full and Y was always empty why would average fares be so low?

Yet DL hasn't cancelled this route so what's your point?

It was literally just an observation, but apparently since it involves CLE you took it personally. If you look at my original post you will see what my point was. Plus, just because DL hasn't ended the route yet, doesn't mean they can't end the route in the future... I think you should try and learn how to respond to people without being rude....

izbtmnhd · Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:56 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
izbtmnhd wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Why are all your responses so snarky?It is a simple question, you have no idea whether F class is always full, you are basing that on anecdotal evidence, also you have no idea whether some of those are FFs who were upgraded but aren't paying the full F fare. If F was always full and Y was always empty why would average fares be so low?

Yet DL hasn't cancelled this route so what's your point?

It was literally just an observation, but apparently since it involves CLE you took it personally. If you look at my original post you will see what my point was. Plus, just because DL hasn't ended the route yet, doesn't mean they can't end the route in the future... I think you should try and learn how to respond to people without being rude....

I'm not taking anything personally. Sure, DL can cancel the route but considering it still operates despite having a below 30% load factor in January and pretty bad LF general for the winter with a lousy average fare means there's probably something beyond your data that is keeping this route afloat.

SgtBarone · Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:56 pm

F9 launching CLE-AUS on April 9th 4x weekly on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday.

Departs CLE at 4:39 PM, arrives in AUS at 6:49 PM.

Departs AUS at 12:04 PM, arrives in CLE at 3:49 PM.

http://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.s ... river_home

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