http://www.dallasnews.com/business/airline-industry/20160906-ruling-creates-combined-seniority-list-for-american-airlines-us-airways-pilots.ece

I didn't see this posted, but the arbitrators have revealed the final joint seniority list which covers the American Pilots including former US Airways and America West Pilots. Some of the highlights.

1. A certain number of Group IV (A330, 777, 787) captain seats are guaranteed in a set ratio to the LAA pilots and the US East pilots. Only if the seat number goes above this can the west pilots bid onto those equipment.

2. The Nicolau Award was not used. The arbitrators created a new combined US list with the West and East pilots first, then merged this new list into the AA list. The list mergers were weighted 15 percent on longevity, and 85 percent on class of craft (Current seat, equipment type, and career expectations prior to merger).

3. Anyone hired after 2005 to USAirways was added to the bottom of the US list since this was after the HP/US merger was announced.

All in all, this list is about as fair as you can possibly get a list of this type. There will be unhappy people on all sides and happy people on all sides.

Well, unfortunately, the article is behind a paywall.

I was curious about the A359's coming soon. Since those are LUS orders, will the LUS
pilots have first crack at those jets?

Sooner787 wrote:

Well, unfortunately, the article is behind a paywall.

I was curious about the A359's coming soon. Since those are LUS orders, will the LUS
pilots have first crack at those jets?

I don't believe so. The only real fencing I saw (and I'm not a well informed reader) was for protecting group IV positions in the event there is a reduction in the feet before 2020. The OPs reading slightly contradicts this, so I may be wrong.

The final list was made with a computer algorithm that took into account length of service, relative seniority (class and status), currently available flying, current pay, and the expected benefits of impending retirements. It sounded in principal pretty fair and well balanced in principal. There will certainly be opportunity to find specifics to get riled up about, but hopefully this pilot group can work together and [finally] move on.

doug_or wrote:

It sounded in principal pretty fair and well balanced in principal. There will certainly be opportunity to find specifics to get riled up about, but hopefully this pilot group can work together and [finally] move on.

I'm seeing a lot of the same complaints about "date of hire" being ignored and people "losing" years of service relative to the other carriers from East pilots. Frankly, there are a lot of guys there that fit into the category of not being happy until they're not happy.

I'm curious, how many pilots does the new combined AA have now?

If you would like to read the whole agreement, it is posted on the APA website: https://www.alliedpilots.org/Portals/0/ ... 3192747665

Not surprisingly, this is huge news for AA and is being largely ignored by the armchair CEOs who constantly bring up the AA/US/HP pilot contract woes.

Even the SLI doesn't have all the facts right:

Prior to its 2005 merger with legacy US Airways (East”), America West (“West”) was a domestic
carrier operating primarily narrow-body aircraft focused on the Western United States,
with limited overseas operations such as service from Phoenix to Hawaii.

Hawai'i didn't start until after the merger with US.

Sooner787 wrote:

I'm curious, how many pilots does the new combined AA have now?

About 15,000

Just curious, which pilots have the highest seniority? Maybe the ex-PSA/Piedmont/TWA/Original 1980s AWE folks?

doug_or wrote:

The final list was made with a computer algorithm that took into account length of service, relative seniority (class and status), currently available flying, current pay, and the expected benefits of impending retirements.

Right, but computer algorithms are written by humans, so it all comes down to what factors a set of humans thought were important, and how they weighed them relative to each other.

doug_or wrote:

It sounded in principal pretty fair and well balanced in principal.

Principally, yes!

usxguy wrote:

Even the SLI doesn't have all the facts right:

Prior to its 2005 merger with legacy US Airways (East”), America West (“West”) was a domestic
carrier operating primarily narrow-body aircraft focused on the Western United States,
with limited overseas operations such as service from Phoenix to Hawaii.

Hawai'i didn't start until after the merger with US.

Are you sure on that? I thought they all ready had the service. I remember hoping that we would get better aircraft on the route with the merger.

grbauc, here's a news story I found:

http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/stor ... aily5.html

Merger announcement was May 18, 2005.

I find it humorous that the AA pilots union threw out the Nicolau award, lots of interesting comments on how flawed it is.

Revelation wrote:

doug_or wrote:

Right, but computer algorithms are written by humans, so it all comes down to what factors a set of humans thought were important, and how they weighed them relative to each other.

Certainly, but the arbitrator noted he had the ability to more than a simple ratio slotting like had been done in previous SLIs. This does not seem to be a windfall in any way for any group or sub-group. There will always be a "this guy hired on that date, or furloughed on this date is XXX numbers senior to me and thats BS", and no ones carrier will be exactly te same as it would have if no mergers occurred, but overall it seems like everyone got something but not everything.

America West started HNL with 747s way before any US talk. Late 1980s. There might have been a hiatus between then and merger I don't remember that well of it.

HP flew HNL from LAS and PHX. Also had a tag from HNL to Nagoya for awhile, too.

Sooner787 wrote:

Well, unfortunately, the article is behind a paywall.

Interesting, it worked fine for me.

So is there any chance someone could contest it? I know it is binding but I have heard that before. I truly hope not, I wish the best to the pilots of American and want them to be a team.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

Sooner787 wrote:

Well, unfortunately, the article is behind a paywall.

Interesting, it worked fine for me.

So is there any chance someone could contest it? I know it is binding but I have heard that before. I truly hope not, I wish the best to the pilots of American and want them to be a team.

Tugg

Try this: http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/201 ... c1f0bf4718

What happened to the TW STL fence? From what I recall, it was preserved when the STL base closed - still around, or finally gone?

Regardless of any of the ensuing controversy - about which volumes (more) will be written and studied for years to come, I have no doubt - I find it sad that USAPA's gambit to weasel out of an allegedly "binding" arbitration has ultimately proven successful. The reaction already is interesting to watch. I agree that if everyone is complaining than that is probably a sign of approximate fairness, although it certainly seems as though the general tone and tenor is unhappiness from LAW about Nic but joy they'll finely be free of the PHX cage, victory laps and high fives from LUS over Nic, and general dissatisfaction from LAA.

Nonetheless, hopefully with one list now, the company, the union and all three (or frankly even four depending on how you look at it) work groups can all move on and move forward after a decade of fighting and the most contentious labor integration in the industry's history.

No dog in the fight but I must admit that I am impressed with the ruling. What a tangled-mess that was placed at the feet of that arbitrator.

Passedv1 wrote:

No dog in the fight but I must admit that I am impressed with the ruling. What a tangled-mess that was placed at the feet of that arbitrator.

I agree, seems that they did a good job. I've been reading some pilot forums and there doesn't seem to be a lot of anger or discontent. Most are understanding and believe the process was fair.

doug_or wrote:

Revelation wrote:

doug_or wrote:

Right, but computer algorithms are written by humans, so it all comes down to what factors a set of humans thought were important, and how they weighed them relative to each other.

Certainly, but the arbitrator noted he had the ability to more than a simple ratio slotting like had been done in previous SLIs. This does not seem to be a windfall in any way for any group or sub-group. There will always be a "this guy hired on that date, or furloughed on this date is XXX numbers senior to me and thats BS", and no ones carrier will be exactly te same as it would have if no mergers occurred, but overall it seems like everyone got something but not everything.

I agree, I also think the agreement was done quite well. I'm also sad if previous attempts to resolve this were unsuccessful because the arbitrator was unable to do more than apply a simple ratio. Pretty much any competent computer scientist over the last several decades could have implemented this scheme. I wrote more complicated computer programs back in high school in the 1970s. The task could easily be handled by a first generation IBM PC (4 MHz, 640k RAM) with BASIC and/or Lotus 123.

usxguy wrote:

Even the SLI doesn't have all the facts right:

Prior to its 2005 merger with legacy US Airways (East”), America West (“West”) was a domestic
carrier operating primarily narrow-body aircraft focused on the Western United States,
with limited overseas operations such as service from Phoenix to Hawaii.

Hawai'i didn't start until after the merger with US.

Hawaii was flown with HP 747s a long time before the merger was even a thought.

... and were parked as quickly as they were acquired.

usxguy wrote:

grbauc, here's a news story I found:

http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/stor ... aily5.html

Merger announcement was May 18, 2005.

I find it humorous that the AA pilots union threw out the Nicolau award, lots of interesting comments on how flawed it is.

Actually, if you read the opinion, LAA pilots wanted to follow the Nicolau award to combine East and West pilots, before combining all LUS pilots with LAA pilots. It was the arbitration panel who felt that the Nicolau award was not applicable, since it was about 9 years since the award was made, and a lot had changed at US.