Cathay Pacific will axe daily flights between Hong Kong and Kuala Lumpur from March 2017, handing the route over to regional sibling Dragonair.

Dragonair – which is being rebranded as CathayDragon from November – will begin the first of four daily flights in March 2017 and complete the schedule by May 2017

CX will also transfer 5 A330-300's to KA

http://www.ausbt.com.au/cathay-pacific- ... -dragonair

Here's the press release: http://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/en_HK/a ... r2017.html

What benefit that CX group will achieve by handing over KUL to KA? Aren't they basically the same airline (unlike SQ-Scoot), with the exception that KA operates narrow body aircraft?

trent768 wrote:

What benefit that CX group will achieve by handing over KUL to KA? Aren't they basically the same airline (unlike SQ-Scoot), with the exception that KA operates narrow body aircraft?

I believe KA pays its employees less than CX.

trent768 wrote:

What benefit that CX group will achieve by handing over KUL to KA? Aren't they basically the same airline (unlike SQ-Scoot), with the exception that KA operates narrow body aircraft?

Dragonair actually flies A330-300 alongside with their narrow body A320/A321 fleet. KA has 19 A333 and CX is going to transfer 5 more to KA. Although KA flies A333, it is Cathay's fully owned regional carrier. You can see that as like American vs. American Eagle.

And just like American vs. American Eagle, Dragonair has a lower cost base, particularly their FA and pilots get a lower pay scale. Their inflight service and meals are not at the same standard as CX as well, especially if you compare the business class service between CX and KA, implying that KA also has a lower cost providing those services.

It is a bit of a surprise seeing KUL get transferred to KA though. The HKG-KUL flights are almost always full and the ticket price is not cheap. I flew several times for business between HKG and KUL in the past year and many flights were full even 2 weeks before their departure, and for flights that still have seats left, the ticket price was upward to HK$6000 for economy class. The yield of the route should be pretty good.

raylee67 wrote:

trent768 wrote:

What benefit that CX group will achieve by handing over KUL to KA? Aren't they basically the same airline (unlike SQ-Scoot), with the exception that KA operates narrow body aircraft?

Dragonair actually flies A330-300 alongside with their narrow body A320/A321 fleet. KA has 19 A333 and CX is going to transfer 5 more to KA. Although KA flies A333, it is Cathay's fully owned regional carrier. You can see that as like American vs. American Eagle.

And just like American vs. American Eagle, Dragonair has a lower cost base, particularly their FA and pilots get a lower pay scale. Their inflight service and meals are not at the same standard as CX as well, especially if you compare the business class service between CX and KA, implying that KA also has a lower cost providing those services.

It is a bit of a surprise seeing KUL get transferred to KA though. The HKG-KUL flights are almost always full and the ticket price is not cheap. I flew several times for business between HKG and KUL in the past year and many flights were full even 2 weeks before their departure, and for flights that still have seats left, the ticket price was upward to HK$6000 for economy class. The yield of the route should be pretty good.

I totally agree with you. It is quite surprising considering both HKG and KUL are huge Asian financial centers.

Could be somewhat related to the troubles at MH, in which their oneworld partner has really languished. CX is likely dominating this route, and sees themselves being able to continue to hold on to that advantage even with KA flight crews and equipment.

I think it has to do with the CX pilot union failed to come to an agreement with CX over rostering and other issues. The work-to-rule and training are issues that they're trying to address here. By moving five A333 to KA, it frees up pilots to train and fly the A359. CX has two A359 in operation now, another 20 will arrive by the end of 2017. This allows CX to expand on transcontinental routes (to North America and Europe) with these new planes.

raylee67 wrote:

Dragonair actually flies A330-300 alongside with their narrow body A320/A321 fleet. KA has 19 A333 and CX is going to transfer 5 more to KA. Although KA flies A333, it is Cathay's fully owned regional carrier. You can see that as like American vs. American Eagle.

And just like American vs. American Eagle, Dragonair has a lower cost base, particularly their FA and pilots get a lower pay scale. Their inflight service and meals are not at the same standard as CX as well, especially if you compare the business class service between CX and KA, implying that KA also has a lower cost providing those services.

It is a bit of a surprise seeing KUL get transferred to KA though. The HKG-KUL flights are almost always full and the ticket price is not cheap. I flew several times for business between HKG and KUL in the past year and many flights were full even 2 weeks before their departure, and for flights that still have seats left, the ticket price was upward to HK$6000 for economy class. The yield of the route should be pretty good.

Yes, I do realize that KA also operates A333. What surprises me is that I thought KA only fly to Chinese secondary cities (I've read somewhere that people on those cities recognize KA more than CX) and some thinner regional destination where A330 were to big (in terms of capacity). So I guess CX wanna make an even bigger profit by sending KA to KUL.

I wonder if KA will take over more lower yielding CX destinations in South East Asia like SUB or DPS, of which the latter already saw KA complements the regular CX service for some time now.

trent768 wrote:

raylee67 wrote:

Dragonair actually flies A330-300 alongside with their narrow body A320/A321 fleet. KA has 19 A333 and CX is going to transfer 5 more to KA. Although KA flies A333, it is Cathay's fully owned regional carrier. You can see that as like American vs. American Eagle.

And just like American vs. American Eagle, Dragonair has a lower cost base, particularly their FA and pilots get a lower pay scale. Their inflight service and meals are not at the same standard as CX as well, especially if you compare the business class service between CX and KA, implying that KA also has a lower cost providing those services.

It is a bit of a surprise seeing KUL get transferred to KA though. The HKG-KUL flights are almost always full and the ticket price is not cheap. I flew several times for business between HKG and KUL in the past year and many flights were full even 2 weeks before their departure, and for flights that still have seats left, the ticket price was upward to HK$6000 for economy class. The yield of the route should be pretty good.

Yes, I do realize that KA also operates A333. What surprises me is that I thought KA only fly to Chinese secondary cities (I've read somewhere that people on those cities recognize KA more than CX) and some thinner regional destination where A330 were to big (in terms of capacity). So I guess CX wanna make an even bigger profit by sending KA to KUL.

I wonder if KA will take over more lower yielding CX destinations in South East Asia like SUB or DPS, of which the latter already saw KA complements the regular CX service for some time now.

To add to your post, part of the reason CX chose to rebrand KA was exactly what you stated of secondary markets recognizing that brand. They wanted to associate it further with the mainline CX brand so that potential customers could see the relationship as to the average traveller, they wouldn't think to make that association prior to the rebrand.

Polot wrote:

I believe KA pays its employees less than CX.

Your belief would not be based upon facts then

trent768 wrote:

What benefit that CX group will achieve by handing over KUL to KA? Aren't they basically the same airline (unlike SQ-Scoot), with the exception that KA operates narrow body aircraft?

Dragonair ia to Cathay Pacific as Silkair is to Singapore Airlines.

KA and MI are regional subsidiaries that offer full service (free meals, baggage etc) at a lower cost base than their parents.

I fly HKG KUL twice a month and fares are usually cheaper than other routes. I'm usually in a ticket class that earns 10% mileage or something stupid like that, with tickets booked less than a week in advance typically. When fares rise, the agent switches to the excellent MH, who continue to fly empty flights to and from HK, typically filled with ultra low yield mainland tour groups. Inbound business typically uses Air Asia who have an excellent northbound schedule.

The Malaysian economy is in the dumps thanks to an increasingly corrupt government who implemented GST at the same time as the fuel prices took a tumble. Unemployment is up, and underemployment, thanks to subsidies to a large part of the population, keeps rising too. I love Malaysia, but God it's so fustrating to work in these days.

Qatara340 wrote:

I totally agree with you. It is quite surprising considering both HKG and KUL are huge Asian financial centers.

Lol! KUL a huge Asian financial center? They're barely an Islamic finance center... at best! KUL is a largely irrelevant capital, and day by day becoming even less relevant given the kleptocracy of UMNO's cronies.

The new KA J seat is virtually the same as CX, btw. I have found KA service in J to be the same as on CX J. Excellent.

trent768 wrote:

Yes, I do realize that KA also operates A333. What surprises me is that I thought KA only fly to Chinese secondary cities (I've read somewhere that people on those cities recognize KA more than CX) and some thinner regional destination where A330 were to big (in terms of capacity).

I wonder if KA will take over more lower yielding CX destinations in South East Asia like SUB or DPS, of which the latter already saw KA complements the regular CX service for some time now.

Penang has been transferred to KA a while ago from CX, and KA continues to serve Penang with A333. Many thinner regional destinations that was originally A320 only has also now grown to sufficiently large to handle A333 service, e.g. Phnom Penh and Busan are served with a mix of A333, A320 and A321 by KA. And then of course there is business destinations such as Bangalore that is in KA network instead of CX, with daily A333.

Purely speculation here, I suppose if KUL can get transferred to KA, then like you said, other secondary A333 destinations are good to go as well. Surabaya, Cebu, Denpasar or even Ho Chi Minh and Nagoya could be candidates.

Coal wrote:

Qatara340 wrote:

I totally agree with you. It is quite surprising considering both HKG and KUL are huge Asian financial centers.

Lol! KUL a huge Asian financial center? They're barely an Islamic finance center... at best! KUL is a largely irrelevant capital, and day by day becoming even less relevant given the kleptocracy of UMNO's cronies.

The new KA J seat is virtually the same as CX, btw. I have found KA service in J to be the same as on CX J. Excellent.

Spot on, KUL no longer or really ever has been a financial centre and its position is only getting worse under the current government. Business travellers won't notice much if a difference as the new J seat is identical to the CX regional J seat. Y passengers will see a bit of a drop in product however on that short of a sector its irrelevant.

As Zeke says, KA do not really have much of a lower cost base. Many of their pilots are paid more than their counterparts at CX.

KA is being used as a vehicle for expansion right now because CX is unable to expand at the rate they would like and management are not prepared to fix the issues which would help them to expand faster. KA on the other hand is able to expand a little faster than CX and that is why they are being used as the way for the Swire Group to expand their airline ops. If things were reversed, it would be just as easy for CX to start taking destinations like KUL back from KA.

In the meantime expect more announcements of KA taking CX destinations including some further afield.

CX Flyboy wrote:

As Zeke says, KA do not really have much of a lower cost base. Many of their pilots are paid more than their counterparts at CX.

KA is being used as a vehicle for expansion right now because CX is unable to expand at the rate they would like and management are not prepared to fix the issues which would help them to expand faster. KA on the other hand is able to expand a little faster than CX and that is why they are being used as the way for the Swire Group to expand their airline ops. If things were reversed, it would be just as easy for CX to start taking destinations like KUL back from KA.

In the meantime expect more announcements of KA taking CX destinations including some further afield.

If its primarily due to pilot issues.... it wouldn't surprise me if some ME/India and Australia A330 destinations switch over to KA... although at that point you can't be using a regional J class product...

Is this the first thread ever on this website where noone has point-blank accused Dragonair of being Cathay's LCC?

Does anyone know which particular frames are the ones that are getting handed over? Interestingly Cathay has switched a few of their older A330s over to Dragonair over the past few years, but also a relatively new one (B-LBD). I flew in B-HWM last year; very nice aircraft with a spotless and very comfortable cabin.

CX Flyboy wrote:

KA is being used as a vehicle for expansion right now because CX is unable to expand at the rate they would like and management are not prepared to fix the issues which would help them to expand faster.

Do you think there is any legitimacy to rumors that CX is going to transfer the freighter fleet to Air Hong Kong? I've heard it quite a few times, but it seems a bit far fetched, especially considering that Swire doesn't fully own Air Hong Kong.

zkojq wrote:

CX Flyboy wrote:

KA is being used as a vehicle for expansion right now because CX is unable to expand at the rate they would like and management are not prepared to fix the issues which would help them to expand faster.

Do you think there is any legitimacy to rumors that CX is going to transfer the freighter fleet to Air Hong Kong? I've heard it quite a few times, but it seems a bit far fetched, especially considering that Swire doesn't fully own Air Hong Kong.

I think there is much legitimacy. There are rumours that DHL have already approached another local airline to ask if they would be willing to partner with them to set-up something similar to the current AHK deal.

I agree that it is pilot issues too. Read PPRUNE, it is quite telling. I think the training ban at CX and the work-to-rule is having a long term impact now, and in order to free up pilots for the A350s they need to transfer A330s to KA. 5 is overkill for KUL, so maybe some additional India flying will be included. KA has flown to Bangalore for years now, so it may be able to make additional routes by transferring CX flying and freeing up A330 pilots. I would not see it adding Australia flying to KA because of the overnight flights and business class flyers requiring the higher class of service.

I would not be surprised many shorter routes flown by CX out of HKG will be transferred to KA. However, some intra-Asian routes will likely stay with CX: SIN, CGK, TPE and possibly most destinations in Japan.

hz747300 wrote:

I agree that it is pilot issues too. Read PPRUNE, it is quite telling. I think the training ban at CX and the work-to-rule is having a long term impact now, and in order to free up pilots for the A350s they need to transfer A330s to KA. 5 is overkill for KUL, so maybe some additional India flying will be included. KA has flown to Bangalore for years now, so it may be able to make additional routes by transferring CX flying and freeing up A330 pilots. I would not see it adding Australia flying to KA because of the overnight flights and business class flyers requiring the higher class of service.

Pretty spot on, I think we'll be seeing more and more "regional" routes being transferred over to KA during the coming years. With KA being streamlined further into the CX brand it only makes sense that many of the low business yielding routes can shifted to KA to free up pilots for the A350s as they get delivered. I wouldn't be surprised if more A330s are transferred over once a substantial amount of the A350 backlog has been delivered. Australia won't be touched, that will remain CX mainline for as long as I can see due to like you've said a strong business traveller demand.

I wonder how many people here have actually flown KA at all since CX's takeover? KA overall provides better inflight services and catering than CX on most regional routes, I prefer KA flights over CX where ever possible (PVG, TPE, MNL).

As for KUL being an "HUGE" financial hub, well, other replies above have shared my view, I'm not gonna repeat that. I fly HKG-KUL about 4-5x a year, and I can tell you the route generates pretty bad yield. Not garbage yield, but still pretty bad, tickets are often below 2k HKD and there was once I scored it for $990 all inclusive. Malaysia sees the slowest economy growth out of all ASEAN members in 2015, whatever position they have in the past is slowly fading away, even MNL is more important than KUL in terms of Regional Financial Importance (Home to the ADB, buddy).

YLWbased

YLWbased wrote:

I wonder how many people here have actually flown KA at all since CX's takeover? KA overall provides better inflight services and catering than CX on most regional routes, I prefer KA flights over CX where ever possible (PVG, TPE, MNL).

As for KUL being an "HUGE" financial hub, well, other replies above have shared my view, I'm not gonna repeat that. I fly HKG-KUL about 4-5x a year, and I can tell you the route generates pretty bad yield. Not garbage yield, but still pretty bad, tickets are often belowan 2k HKD and there was once I scored it for $990 all inclusive. Malaysia sees the slowest economy growth out of all ASEAN members in 2015, whatever position they have in the past is slowly fading away, even MNL is more important than KUL in terms of Regional Financial Importance (Home to the ADB, buddy).

YLWbased

I flew them just over a week ago, HKG-HAN and was very pleasantly surprised, it's only 1 and 1/2 hours, but I got full service which I wasn't expecting. Food was good.

YLWbased wrote:

I wonder how many people here have actually flown KA at all since CX's takeover? KA overall provides better inflight services and catering than CX on most regional routes, I prefer KA flights over CX where ever possible (PVG, TPE, MNL).

YLWbased

MNL doesn't have KA flights, and I don't think there will be in the future, for the sole reason that setting up a new airline in NAIA is too much work when CX already has a mammoth following in the Phils.

Alongside Cathay, Dragonair operated to MNL up until 12 months ago on the 321. MNL HKG is a volume and transit game for Cathay and it is not rare to see the 773 there in the morning. Dragon also operate to Clark.

The ground operation for CX in MNL and CEB is fantastic, perhaps the best in their network. In comparison to KUL, where CX have really struggled with ground issues. I'm scheduled to fly on the 359 later this week from MNL.