KLAM
Topic Author
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:31 am

Why no direct BEY-North America?

Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:58 am

Hey everyone,

I was wondering this a few days ago. I heard some time ago that the US banned ME from flying to the US after the TW hijacking, but I also recall reading somewhere that there was a bilateral agreement between Lebanon and Canada. There seems to be some sizeable O/D demand at least between YUL and BEY; AC flights to LHR, GVA, and CDG, and AF flights to CDG are often packed with people connecting on ME. It is hard to find an offer. What is preventing AC or ME to start operations?

Thanks for your replies!
flyOM
 
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euroflyer
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Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:41 am

I know GWB amended the US ban back in 2007 but it's not clear to me whether commercial operations from US based airlines are permitted.

The ban lift says "the prohibition of transportation services to Lebanon [...] is hereby further amended to permit U.S. air carriers under contract to the United States Government to engage in foreign air transportation to and from Lebanon of passengers, including U.S. and non-U.S. citizens, and their accompanying baggage; of goods for humanitarian purposes; and of any other cargo or materiel."
Born to fly !
 
KLAM
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Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:28 pm

This is very interesting. I guess MEs A332 have the legs to do it, maybe traffic is not as good as it appears. I know RAM makes some good money moving people to BEY via CMN too.
flyOM
 
Thomaas
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Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:13 pm

I can see Air Canada rouge launching YUL-BEY. They wanted to do it before 9/11 and the market is pretty big, seems like a logical addition.
 
Armodeen
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Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:38 pm

There is a massive market for DTW area flights. ME could fill a daily flight no problem year round. Most folks currently connect over CDG on DL/AF and AF/ME to BEY.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:04 pm

Armodeen wrote:
There is a massive market for DTW area flights. ME could fill a daily flight no problem year round. Most folks currently connect over CDG on DL/AF and AF/ME to BEY.


While there is likely a lot of traffic that double-tickets and the market might easily stimulate, the local market between DTW and BEY is not "massive" at less than 60 PDEW and it is smaller than NYC-BEY.
a.
 
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enilria
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Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:06 pm

My understanding is that the U.S. govt is not confident that the BEY airport is being operated in a way that provides sufficient security for non-stop service to the USA.
 
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falstaff
Posts: 5610
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Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:08 pm

Armodeen wrote:
There is a massive market for DTW area flights. ME could fill a daily flight no problem year round. Most folks currently connect over CDG on DL/AF and AF/ME to BEY.


I've flown AF between CDG and DTW a couple of times and A340 was probably half middle eastern people or people of middle eastern decent. I saw several people near my seat carrying bags from the duty free shop at BEY. It was summer and it was mostly women traveling with children.

Armodeen wrote:
There is a massive market for DTW area flights

You'd think if the market is so big DTW would have more than one middle east carrier. I wonder how many people really want to go back to the middle east on a regular basis? I have had a good number of middle eastern decent students over the years. Most of them have never set foot in the middle east and neither have their parents in many cases. Many of their families have been in the US for several generations and don't even know anyone in the middle east anymore. Not unlike the Americans of Polish, Irish, Italian, etc. decent. Eventually you get so many generations removed you have no real connections there. I did have one student who's family would return to BEY every summer for a month. They flew AF. He brought me some AF BEY luggage tags to add to my collection.

I have met many people around Detroit who are from Iraq and aren't in any hurry to return.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:21 pm

Thomaas wrote:
I can see Air Canada rouge launching YUL-BEY. They wanted to do it before 9/11 and the market is pretty big, seems like a logical addition.


Not before 9/11, but after.

Air Canada had applied for a 3x weekly B763 flights on YUL-BEY that were supposed to start June 5, 2003. A few days before the start, Ottawa canceled Air Canada's rights on the route, a move most likely initiated by the U.S.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... e22394295/

KLAM wrote:
This is very interesting. I guess MEs A332 have the legs to do it, maybe traffic is not as good as it appears. I know RAM makes some good money moving people to BEY via CMN too.


It has nothing to do with route performance, and everything to do with politics, an agenda pushed from out neighbors down south.

If airport security was the real issue, The FAA and Transport Canada would cancel flights from Turkey and Egypt indefinitely, as the recent events in those countries have shown us. But you don't see that happening.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:31 pm

With no president in Lebanon, I doubt we will see the U.S carriers in BEY or ME in the U.S.
 
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Qatara340
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Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:54 pm

BEY is in an area which is predominately a Hezbollah stronghold. Political aside, Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization by many countries including the US.

While Air Canada has every right to fly to BEY, the US pressured Canada to stop these flights. Official papers how ever cited "safety concerns" over the link.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
KLAM
Topic Author
Posts: 184
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Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Wed Aug 10, 2016 4:52 am

Qatara340 wrote:
BEY is in an area which is predominately a Hezbollah stronghold. Political aside, Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization by many countries including the US.

While Air Canada has every right to fly to BEY, the US pressured Canada to stop these flights. Official papers how ever cited "safety concerns" over the link.


I just spent two beautiful weeks in Lebanon, and I never felt unsafe. I do understand that civilian/tourist life does not paint a clear picture of underlying political tensions. The topic of HZB would justify a new thread on its own on another forum; I talked to many people of different religious backgrounds and opinions tend to be very mixed, with many Christians stating that HZB has been Lebanon's savior. I cannot really cast an opinion on this.

Aside the politics, BEY is indeed in the southern suburbs of Beirut, but it is handled by the army. I was surprised how many times I was checked at the airport. The army went through my passport carefully in immigration, people go through security checks before check-in, and before getting to the gate. Everyone complied without making scenes.

Lebanon could use more tourism; unfortunately, I do not see an increase in visits anytime soon, especially when other nearby countries offer similar holiday alternatives without any safety hassles. The Lebanese people who actually love their country deserve better than what they are getting.
flyOM
 
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Qatara340
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Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:30 am

KLAM wrote:
Qatara340 wrote:
BEY is in an area which is predominately a Hezbollah stronghold. Political aside, Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization by many countries including the US.

While Air Canada has every right to fly to BEY, the US pressured Canada to stop these flights. Official papers how ever cited "safety concerns" over the link.


I just spent two beautiful weeks in Lebanon, and I never felt unsafe. I do understand that civilian/tourist life does not paint a clear picture of underlying political tensions. The topic of HZB would justify a new thread on its own on another forum; I talked to many people of different religious backgrounds and opinions tend to be very mixed, with many Christians stating that HZB has been Lebanon's savior. I cannot really cast an opinion on this.

Aside the politics, BEY is indeed in the southern suburbs of Beirut, but it is handled by the army. I was surprised how many times I was checked at the airport. The army went through my passport carefully in immigration, people go through security checks before check-in, and before getting to the gate. Everyone complied without making scenes.

Lebanon could use more tourism; unfortunately, I do not see an increase in visits anytime soon, especially when other nearby countries offer similar holiday alternatives without any safety hassles. The Lebanese people who actually love their country deserve better than what they are getting.


I totally agree. To me, Lebanon is one of the most beautiful countries in the Middle East. I believe, wars and politics aside, Lebanon has potential to be the leading tourist hotspot in the Middle East.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
raffik
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Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:41 am

MEA would jump at the chance to return to North America (they flew there in the 80s with their 747s) but I don't see it happening for a while.
After the US barrack bombings in the 1980s, any chance of flights resuming were out of the window.
America considers the security arrangements at Beirut to be inadequate, although ask anybody who has flown from there just how over zealous the security is and you'll know it's just an excuse. A security check to enter the airport perimeter, security and bag check BEFORE check in, then customs checks and another security check before the airport departure gates.
It is one of the safest procedures I have seen in my life and I have flown through major airports on all continents.
Beirut has flights to nearly every single major European destination and has facilitated them safely for decades.
The reason why MEA or Air Canada cannot operate flights is not down to perceived conditions of safety, it is punishment and politically motivated.

MEA would probably operate 3 times weekly to JFK, YUL. Possibly some summer operation to Detroit and I am sure some American carriers would do well on the Beirut route.
A lot of Lebanon's neighbours already have direct services to America- looks at Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia etc.
- Alec
 
Harshil9
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:19 am

Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:58 am

There are direct flights between North America and West Africa and security there is lacking in some airports such as the current airport in Dakar which I went through just last week. The new one is finally scheduled to open in the next few months hopefully security is tighter there
 
KLAM
Topic Author
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:31 am

Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:32 am

At some point during this past year, there were rumours in Mtl about a YUL-BEY direct flight. If north american authorities continue to be picky about BEY, one of these days, someone in Latin America will see a market, and will steal all the traffic.
flyOM
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 2439
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:54 am

huh? What does Latin America have to do in a market between North America and BEY?
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
NichCage
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:55 pm

How safe is Beirut to visit as a tourist? Lebanon seems like a beautiful country, yet you need to be safe in the process. What are the areas of Beirut you should avoid?
 
KLAM
Topic Author
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:31 am

Re: Why no direct BEY-North America?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:13 pm

It is not unsafe if you know where not to go, I guess. Like everywhere. It is worth the visit.
As per what does LatAm has to do with the traffic between NA and BEY, I may say that part of LatAm is in NA. Also, Middle Eastern markets have been looking towards Latin America for quite a while: CUN, PTY, BOG may be good points to receive connections from both NA and SA.
flyOM

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