HA's 717 are starting to get up there in age and cycles, and HA is reportedly researching behind the scenes for a replacement. The obvious 1:1 replacement is the CSeries 100. However, as someone said in another thread, they are also looking at going smaller, along the lines of the 175E2 or MRJ.

Both families of aircraft are outstanding, but with quick wiki research in the past few minutes, I personally have come to the conclusion that the MRJ (nonER/LR) is the better option for HA. They don't need the range or MTOW of the 175, and the flexibility of using the lighter MRJs as a family on higher/lower demand intra-Hawaii routes. Yes, they could do that with the E2, but IMO the lighter weight of the MRJ is just too good to pass for HA.

I'd love to include the CRJ1000 and Superjet, but the CRJ is a generation too old, and American's don't bode well to Russian aircraft.

What do you guys think?

Hawaiian will probably be the last operator of the 717 other than Delta. As their current 717's run out of cycles, they will obtain other 717's that have lots more cycles left. They could probably operate the 717 for another couple of decades as it is a derivative of the DC-9 which has a track record of aircraft being operated for 3 or 4 decades. They will only replace the 717 with somenthing newer when an aircraft and engine combination has been shown to be able to handle their very short flights with short turn around times.

When & if HA needs a 717 replacement, it needs to be a like capacity aircraft. During peak times the flights run multiple times per hour in the HNL-OGG/LIH markets. They also need to look at possible competitor intrusion into these markets if the demand is high. DL/AA both used to "tag on" flights between HNL-OGG years ago with DC-10's & L10's and there's nothing preventing that from happening again with smaller more fuel efficient aircraft with the 752, 738, A321's or A320 (VX).

Honestly, I think it will really come down to whether the GTF can handle the stress, heat, and quick turns demanded on it. Once this is known, then I think a better guess could be hazarded.

TWA772LR wrote:

HA's 717 are starting to get up there in age and cycles, and HA is reportedly researching behind the scenes for a replacement. The obvious 1:1 replacement is the CSeries 100. However, as someone said in another thread, they are also looking at going smaller, along the lines of the 175E2 or MRJ.

Both families of aircraft are outstanding, but with quick wiki research in the past few minutes, I personally have come to the conclusion that the MRJ (nonER/LR) is the better option for HA. They don't need the range or MTOW of the 175, and the flexibility of using the lighter MRJs as a family on higher/lower demand intra-Hawaii routes. Yes, they could do that with the E2, but IMO the lighter weight of the MRJ is just too good to pass for HA.

I'd love to include the CRJ1000 and Superjet, but the CRJ is a generation too old, and American's don't bode well to Russian aircraft.

What do you guys think?

Here's the problem with this website. People who don't really know what they're talking about make statements that are false, then are taken as fact by others and a new thread rehashing the same old stuff is created. Wash, rinse, repeat.

HA is NOT seriously shopping for a 717 replacement at the moment. Will it happen? Yes. Until then, the plan is to operate the planes until the 2020 timeframe and to acquire more, should they become available. They have said time and time again that THERE IS NO VIABLE REPLACEMENT ON THE MARKET AT THE MOMENT for the 717. Anything beyond these facts, is pure conjecture and shouldn't be taken as a plan or strategy being actively pursued by HAL. So no... a large RJ is likely going to happen.

azjubilee wrote:

Here's the problem with this website. People who don't really know what they're talking about make statements that are false, then are taken as fact by others and a new thread rehashing the same old stuff is created. Wash, rinse, repeat.

HA is NOT seriously shopping for a 717 replacement at the moment. Will it happen? Yes. Until then, the plan is to operate the planes until the 2020 timeframe and to acquire more, should they become available. They have said time and time again that THERE IS NO VIABLE REPLACEMENT ON THE MARKET AT THE MOMENT for the 717. Anything beyond these facts, is pure conjecture and shouldn't be taken as a plan or strategy being actively pursued by HAL. So no... a large RJ is likely going to happen.

Amen! I'm not sure but I thought I read somewhere that HA's 717s will take it to roughly 2025??? God only knows what oil prices and crack spreads will be in 9 years.

I'm sure they are evaluating everything on the market, even if right now there is no fully satisfactory replacement.

They put cycles on aircraft extremely quickly, and there is no guarantee that used aircraft will be available when their existing aircraft cycle out. There are only a few 717s that are both in airworthy condition and likely to be sold in the near future, and HA will be competing with DL and NC for those few aircraft.

If the GTF can handle the mission, I'd think the CS300 (yes, 300) would be the perfect replacement. Mild improvement in fuel consumption and a nice increase in passenger capacity.

Can the 321 fleet pick up cycles between longer haul flights or are they cycle limited?

On a quick side note (and I realize this may be really dumb question but I am curious), how does a plane with the range of the 717 get to Hawaii in the first place?

MaverickM11 wrote:

Can the 321 fleet pick up cycles between longer haul flights or are they cycle limited?

It's not the cycles, per se. it's the quick turns. They turn their planes in a very short time, and the engines don't really have time to cool before starting up again. That's why many have been saying it's up to whether the engine can handle it.

Years ago, Aloha tried putting 737-300s on those routes, and switched back to -200s because the CFMs couldn't take that kind of punishment.

Travelmanager wrote:

On a quick side note (and I realize this may be really dumb question but I am curious), how does a plane with the range of the 717 get to Hawaii in the first place?

Auxillary tanks. I saw a short film on HA's first 717 a while ago and it showed the interior swapped out for the fuel tanks. I guess the interior was fitted at HNL after delivery.

My bet's on the SSJ.

90% of people flying on the planes will either be tourists or native Hawaiians with no other choice. Given that, I don't think that anybody flying on the planes will have any idea that they're Russian to begin with. Don't forget, Americans are very unobservant.

hOMSaR wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

Can the 321 fleet pick up cycles between longer haul flights or are they cycle limited?

It's not the cycles, per se. it's the quick turns. They turn their planes in a very short time, and the engines don't really have time to cool before starting up again. That's why many have been saying it's up to whether the engine can handle it.

Years ago, Aloha tried putting 737-300s on those routes, and switched back to -200s because the CFMs couldn't take that kind of punishment.

With a 90% increase in seats you'd need fewer, longer turns. Does anyone really need HNLITO every 30 min?

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Hawaiian will probably be the last operator of the 717 other than Delta.

That'll disappoint Alan Joyce, CEO of Qantas (QF). He has recently signed an agreement with Cobham Aviation to continue operating the 717 for QF for the next ten years. He has also said that he is looking to purchase more.

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce said recently the airline was looking to buy the 717s it currently had on lease as those leases expired and was on the lookout for further acquisitions in what was a scarce market ...
“Obviously we are keeping an eye on the Embraers, the CSeries. They have the potential to be longer-term replacements but we are a long way away before we have to replace the 717s and the F100s,” Joyce said.

http://australianaviation.com.au/2016/0 ... 17-flying/

So, if Hawaiian did wish to replace their 717, how much of a bidding war would there be between DL and QF?

azjubilee wrote:

TWA772LR wrote:

HA's 717 are starting to get up there in age and cycles, and HA is reportedly researching behind the scenes for a replacement. The obvious 1:1 replacement is the CSeries 100. However, as someone said in another thread, they are also looking at going smaller, along the lines of the 175E2 or MRJ.

Both families of aircraft are outstanding, but with quick wiki research in the past few minutes, I personally have come to the conclusion that the MRJ (nonER/LR) is the better option for HA. They don't need the range or MTOW of the 175, and the flexibility of using the lighter MRJs as a family on higher/lower demand intra-Hawaii routes. Yes, they could do that with the E2, but IMO the lighter weight of the MRJ is just too good to pass for HA.

I'd love to include the CRJ1000 and Superjet, but the CRJ is a generation too old, and American's don't bode well to Russian aircraft.

What do you guys think?

Here's the problem with this website. People who don't really know what they're talking about make statements that are false, then are taken as fact by others and a new thread rehashing the same old stuff is created. Wash, rinse, repeat.

HA is NOT seriously shopping for a 717 replacement at the moment. Will it happen? Yes. Until then, the plan is to operate the planes until the 2020 timeframe and to acquire more, should they become available. They have said time and time again that THERE IS NO VIABLE REPLACEMENT ON THE MARKET AT THE MOMENT for the 717. Anything beyond these facts, is pure conjecture and shouldn't be taken as a plan or strategy being actively pursued by HAL. So no... a large RJ is likely going to happen.

Yep, that was my first thought as well after reading the op.

HA is at least a decade away from considering any real alternative to the 717, doubly so since one doesn't exist at the moment. The notion that HA is preparing to imminently chuck away all of their 717s for something else is pure nonsense.

If Hawaiian can get another ten years out of the 717s, their aircraft maybe facing corrosion problems as they are exposed the the saltwater air from spending their whole flying life in Hawaii. Corrosion kills aircraft. They must be using a whole lot of Dynol as a corrosion preventative on these aircraft. Delta is going to fly their 717s until the only place they can go is to the desert.
Hawaiian is going need to find another aircraft with an engine that can do quick turn arounds. Otherwise they will need to have spare aircraft to fill in for those that need to cool down.

I think HA's 717 fleet will be around for quite sometime . When it comes time to replace/renew their inter-island narrowbody fleet a combination of 75-115 seat would work well for HA. The problem I see that HA has now, which can be eliminated with a mix of E75/E90 a/c is having a second boarding/deplaning door for quicker turns. With the 717s, turns can be slowed without that second door.

WN runs their 737's pretty rigorously. Seems like they could replace some of their high frequency routes with some of these considering they don't have much competition and multiple times an hour probably isn't necessary. Although, some Airbus planes would be better for commonality.

TWA772LR wrote:

HA's 717 are starting to get up there in age and cycles, and HA is reportedly researching behind the scenes for a replacement. The obvious 1:1 replacement is the CSeries 100. However, as someone said in another thread, they are also looking at going smaller, along the lines of the 175E2 or MRJ.

Both families of aircraft are outstanding, but with quick wiki research in the past few minutes, I personally have come to the conclusion that the MRJ (nonER/LR) is the better option for HA. They don't need the range or MTOW of the 175, and the flexibility of using the lighter MRJs as a family on higher/lower demand intra-Hawaii routes. Yes, they could do that with the E2, but IMO the lighter weight of the MRJ is just too good to pass for HA.

I'd love to include the CRJ1000 and Superjet, but the CRJ is a generation too old, and American's don't bode well to Russian aircraft.

What do you guys think?

Hawaiian needs quick turn around with engines that don't have a long cool down cycle. All PW-GTF powered birds will most likely have the A320 issue to some degree.
Hawaiian Also needs longer larger cargo holds than the MRJ. They carry a lot of surf boards that will be a problem loading on anything other than a C series or larger cargo hold. If they were to go with a c series they would need 2-3 more planes to make up for the down time between flights.
Thats why they are going through the life extension program for the 717's. It will give more time to decide.
Also if direct to each island works well with A321's they could make that up by reduced demand Island to Island as they would not need as many planes to cover the time loss. But hey want to avoid that as the O/D demand island to island vs tourist is climbing.

Travelmanager wrote:

On a quick side note (and I realize this may be really dumb question but I am curious), how does a plane with the range of the 717 get to Hawaii in the first place?

They install temporary fuel tanks in the aircraft that are monitored for balance during the flight as fuel is used. Same way they got the DC-9-30's there.

MaverickM11 wrote:

hOMSaR wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

Can the 321 fleet pick up cycles between longer haul flights or are they cycle limited?

It's not the cycles, per se. it's the quick turns. They turn their planes in a very short time, and the engines don't really have time to cool before starting up again. That's why many have been saying it's up to whether the engine can handle it.

Years ago, Aloha tried putting 737-300s on those routes, and switched back to -200s because the CFMs couldn't take that kind of punishment.

With a 90% increase in seats you'd need fewer, longer turns. Does anyone really need HNLITO every 30 min?

You also need to be able to sell those seats at that time. Hawaii is a market where they expect many flights/day & still get good loads. Hawaiian tried MD-80's along with DC-9-50's at one time and found the MD-80's loads could not be maintained.

Possibly a CSeries. The PW1000G's thrust rating and the aircraft passenger capacity is similar to that of a 717.

gregn21 wrote:

I don't think that anybody flying on the planes will have any idea that they're Russian to begin with.

Is it not the case that US airlines are required to state the country of the aircraft's final assembly on the safety card?

Not that 99% of people ever look at that either, but one day some Buzzfeed editor will read it in desperation while waiting for their WiFi to reconnect... :p

As all airline do, they look at what is currently out there, what is in development, what are the plus' sand minus's of what we currently have and have had, and what are our passenger loads. Are we happy with the 717? Is it too big or to small? Is a configuration of 2-3 better then 2-2 or 3-3?

If the like what they have, then the CSeries would be the natural choice and more environmentally friendly as well. If they want a smaller aircraft and maybe more aircraft, then the E190 or MRJ maybe it. Hate the 2-2 seating in the long tube. And if they want to go even smaller then the E175 would work, but they may have to buy additional planes to equal capacity. Then the could go to the 737?

Hawaiian does like the 2-3 seating arrangement they currently have in the 717's and the mad dogs before. I would bet on the CS100. A lot of the passenger are carry luggage and a lot of it. The CS has luggage space.

rbavfan wrote:

All PW-GTF powered birds will most likely have the A320 issue to some degree.

Both BBD and P&W stated otherwise. The GFT on the A320 has mounted in a different ways than on the Cseries and MC-21 (which BBD designed the pylon). Apparently the BBD-designed pylon which attaches to the FAN has no issue while the Airbus-designed pylon which attaches to the core has the issue.


Source: http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... ting-issue

"Pratt also says the PW1100G is the only one of the family that has exhibited the issue. “It’s kind of curious, and I’m not going to say it is the cause, but it is certainly an indicator. This is the only engine we had to core mount to the pylon. All the other engines we could fan mount,” says Leduc."

As has been stated before, both in this thread and in previous ones, remember that Hawaii intra-island is actually two distinct markets. One market is tourists, who typically fly into one island, and then may fly a leg or two inter-island, then fly back to the Mainland US (or Canada) from another one, or return to Honolulu to connect elsewhere. The second market is the local population. Although the distances between islands is not great (i.e., about 100 miles between HNL and either LIH or OGG), there is effectively no way besides flying to go between islands. That second market may well do both day trips for business or VFR trips for a weekend or a few days. That market requires frequency. Right now, both markets require the 717; in the future, the CS300 would probably work as well. This is not the same market as, say, DFW or ATL, where you can run commuter jets on short hauls. The locals in particular don't appreciate that - look at the problems at Island Air with their ATR's.

XAM2175 wrote:

gregn21 wrote:

I don't think that anybody flying on the planes will have any idea that they're Russian to begin with.

Is it not the case that US airlines are required to state the country of the aircraft's final assembly on the safety card?

Not that 99% of people ever look at that either, but one day some Buzzfeed editor will read it in desperation while waiting for their WiFi to reconnect... :p

Having flown a lot for work. How many people read the base info on those cards? Much less the fine print that Congress wasted money on a law to print the location the plane was made. As a very petty cheap shot over France not backing us in the Iraq war. Its so small you don't even notice, unless your a a*netter looking for extra plane info.

Dash9 wrote:

rbavfan wrote:

All PW-GTF powered birds will most likely have the A320 issue to some degree.

Both BBD and P&W stated otherwise. The GFT on the A320 has mounted in a different ways than on the Cseries and MC-21 (which BBD designed the pylon). Apparently the BBD-designed pylon which attaches to the FAN has no issue while the Airbus-designed pylon which attaches to the core has the issue.


Source: http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... ting-issue

"Pratt also says the PW1100G is the only one of the family that has exhibited the issue. “It’s kind of curious, and I’m not going to say it is the cause, but it is certainly an indicator. This is the only engine we had to core mount to the pylon. All the other engines we could fan mount,” says Leduc."

Thats an interesting thought.

I agree, I have thought that the CSeries are perfect replacements for HA 717s, for a long time.

How long are the typical trips on the HA 717 ? Could ATR's or Dash 8's do the job ? Or is perhaps props out of the question for HA ?ir Tahiti uses the ATR 2-500/600 and the ATR 42 in French Polynesia and all the way to Rarotonga, Cook Islands.

I'm sure they would try to find an aircraft that had roughly the same seating capacity at the 717, so maybe the E195-E2 or an A318 would work great. I guess price of each aircraft would really play a major role in which aircraft they chose. E195-E2 is sitting around $60 mil, and the A318 is around $75 mil. They both have a seating capacity of about 135 passengers.

Since the E2 Series isn't even scheduled for delivery until 2018, that would give HA plenty of time to place orders and really use the 717s until they cant fly anymore.

One big problem with all these re-engined or new aircraft is that the latest generation engines are all heavy.

yes, their fuel burn is excellent but the actual weight of the motor is higher. That can be compensated for on longer stages but for intra-Hawaiian flying? Maybe a GTF isn't the right solution.

Secondly, how important is baggage? The MRJ doesn't have conventional baggage pits so would that disqualify it as well?

This is one selection that's probably some years off but it'll take a lot of thought and some creative deals to make it work at HA because of their unique operation. The 717 is a great fit for them and there's nothing that jumps out as being the perfect replacement. Maybe some secondhand E190 frames?

Mortyman wrote:

How long are the typical trips on the HA 717 ? Could ATR's or Dash 8's do the job ? Or is perhaps props out of the question for HA ?ir Tahiti uses the ATR 2-500/600 and the ATR 42 in French Polynesia and all the way to Rarotonga, Cook Islands.

Not enough baggage space on the props. Large number of Asian tourists on the inter-island flights who normally have a lot of bags.

HA 717 sectors vary from 73 nm to 188 nm, but the average can't be much over 100 nm.

Current 717 routes, approximate daily frequency (each direction), and block time, from most to least frequent:

HNL-OGG , 87 nm, 25 daily, 39-43 min.
HNL-KOA, 142 nm, 22 daily, 44-49 min.
HNL-LIH, 89 nm, 21 daily, 37-43 min.
HNL-ITO, 188 nm, 15 daily, 52-54 min.
OGG-LIH, 175 nm, 4 daily, 47 min.
OGG-KOA, 73 nm, 3 daily, 35 min.
OGG-ITO, 105 nm, 2 daily, 39 min.

A provocative remark: an obvious DC-9/B717 successor is ARJ21.

MaverickM11 wrote:

With a 90% increase in seats you'd need fewer, longer turns. Does anyone really need HNLITO every 30 min?

I get a kick out of the various a.net threads where people keep thinking that airlines should just fly less frequently with larger planes. "Does anybody really need a flight from A to B every x amount of time?" As if the airlines haven't figured out their market.

aviationjunky wrote:

I'm sure they would try to find an aircraft that had roughly the same seating capacity at the 717, so maybe the E195-E2 or an A318 would work great. I guess price of each aircraft would really play a major role in which aircraft they chose. E195-E2 is sitting around $60 mil, and the A318 is around $75 mil. They both have a seating capacity of about 135 passengers.

As almost everyone else has said in this thread, the deciding factor in the eventual 717 replacement will be a plane (or more specifically, an engine) that can handle frequent, short flights with minimal turn time and (preferably) has a high cycle life. That will be far more important than a few million dollar difference in list price (which nobody pays, anyway).

It's highly questionable whether the GTF (which is being fitted on the E2 series) would be able to handle that type of operation, and the CFMs powering the A318 (which, by the way, has 0 outstanding orders, and 15% of the already tiny worldwide fleet parked due to the plane being such an inefficient dud) couldn't handle it either. If it could, then the A320 series or 737 Classic or NG would likely have already long-since replaced the interisland fleets.

TWA772LR wrote:

HA's 717 are starting to get up there in age and cycles, and HA is reportedly researching behind the scenes for a replacement. The obvious 1:1 replacement is the CSeries 100. However, as someone said in another thread, they are also looking at going smaller, along the lines of the 175E2 or MRJ.

Both families of aircraft are outstanding, but with quick wiki research in the past few minutes, I personally have come to the conclusion that the MRJ (nonER/LR) is the better option for HA. They don't need the range or MTOW of the 175, and the flexibility of using the lighter MRJs as a family on higher/lower demand intra-Hawaii routes. Yes, they could do that with the E2, but IMO the lighter weight of the MRJ is just too good to pass for HA.

I'd love to include the CRJ1000 and Superjet, but the CRJ is a generation too old, and American's don't bode well to Russian aircraft.

What do you guys think?

Almost seems like just yesterday when they picked these birds up for their fleet. Hard to believe they are reaching the end of their lives already. I think the CS100 might be a possible option.

HGL wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Hawaiian will probably be the last operator of the 717 other than Delta.

That'll disappoint Alan Joyce, CEO of Qantas (QF). He has recently signed an agreement with Cobham Aviation to continue operating the 717 for QF for the next ten years. He has also said that he is looking to purchase more.

Better be careful there. This could easily lead to a "When will Boeing restart 717 production" thread!!

hOMSaR wrote:

I get a kick out of the various a.net threads where people keep thinking that airlines should just fly less frequently with larger planes. "Does anybody really need a flight from A to B every x amount of time?" As if the airlines haven't figured out their market.

Considering that is what *every* US carrier is doing now--upgauging and reducing frequency--the airlines have all figured the bigger planes, less frequency can be an excellent increase in efficiency.

HA won't have any problem. I am sure Boeing will restart the 717 line... shortly after it restarts the 757 all A.netters have been dreaming about...

hOMSaR wrote:

If it could, then the A320 series or 737 Classic or NG would likely have already long-since replaced the interisland fleets.

Do you think the NEO series or MAX series would do it better?

MaverickM11 wrote:

Considering that is what *every* US carrier is doing now--upgauging and reducing frequency--the airlines have all figured the bigger planes, less frequency can be an excellent increase in efficiency.

True... but the inter-island market in Hawaii is unique unto itself. It literally is the intra-state highway system. Frequency is necessary, as is the capacity during much of the day.

MaverickM11 wrote:

hOMSaR wrote:

I get a kick out of the various a.net threads where people keep thinking that airlines should just fly less frequently with larger planes. "Does anybody really need a flight from A to B every x amount of time?" As if the airlines haven't figured out their market.

Considering that is what *every* US carrier is doing now--upgauging and reducing frequency--the airlines have all figured the bigger planes, less frequency can be an excellent increase in efficiency.

What works on the mainland doesn't transfer here easily to a close knit group of islands in the middle of the Pacific. What would they do with big new expensive planes during all the downtime between the reduced frequency? If they are buying new, they will want these planes in the air as many hours as possible, day-in, day-out. Planes sitting on the ground aren't very efficient.

yyztpa wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

hOMSaR wrote:

I get a kick out of the various a.net threads where people keep thinking that airlines should just fly less frequently with larger planes. "Does anybody really need a flight from A to B every x amount of time?" As if the airlines haven't figured out their market.

Considering that is what *every* US carrier is doing now--upgauging and reducing frequency--the airlines have all figured the bigger planes, less frequency can be an excellent increase in efficiency.

What works on the mainland doesn't transfer here easily to a close knit group of islands in the middle of the Pacific. What would they do with big new expensive planes during all the downtime between the reduced frequency? If they are buying new, they will want these planes in the air as many hours as possible, day-in, day-out. Planes sitting on the ground aren't very efficient.

What downtime? It'd do mid hauls to the mainland and intra island between trips. What are locals going to do if instead of every 15 min there's a flight every 30 min? Not fly? Take a boat?

hOMSaR wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

With a 90% increase in seats you'd need fewer, longer turns. Does anyone really need HNLITO every 30 min?

I get a kick out of the various a.net threads where people keep thinking that airlines should just fly less frequently with larger planes. "Does anybody really need a flight from A to B every x amount of time?" As if the airlines haven't figured out their market.

I agree! Everyone is advocating for 1-2 A380s between every city pair and all of our aviation problems will be solved.

MaverickM11 wrote:

Considering that is what *every* US carrier is doing now--upgauging and reducing frequency--the airlines have all figured the bigger planes, less frequency can be an excellent increase in efficiency.

This is somewhat Apples and Oranges. Airlines are reducing inefficient/old regional flying with mainline, from hubs to tier 2 or 3 cities. I don't think there is one example of an airline going with fewer frequencies on a money making / core / competitive route.

I think HA is going to be waiting to see how the new generation of engines develop and what is the next big thing in the space. GTF does seem like a logical fit, on paper.

A common idea thrown around Anet is everyone is advocating for 1-2 A380s between every city pair and all of our aviation problems will be solved.

MaverickM11 wrote:

What downtime? It'd do mid hauls to the mainland and intra island between trips. What are locals going to do if instead of every 15 min there's a flight every 30 min? Not fly? Take a boat?

Hawaiian's 717 fleet is about 1/3 of their total fleet. There isn't enough "down time" in the rest of their fleet to replace that flying. They still need a small plane that can do a bunch of short hops and quick turns.

Using A321s (or whatever type) in between longer hauls just means less time to actually do maintenance work on those jets. Plus, then you could only schedule interisland flights around when the long hauls are going to be on the ground in Hawaii. That's fine if you want to use the interisland flights to feed the long-hauls, but doesn't do any good for folks that want to fly at other times.

airzona11 wrote:

A common idea thrown around Anet is everyone is advocating for 1-2 A380s between every city pair and all of our aviation problems will be solved.

No. Aviation's problems won't be solved until Boeing restarts production of the 757.

When the 717s run out of cycles, Hawaiian will look at purchasing the old Airborne Express DC-9-40's in the junkyard. These aircraft are excellent for short flights with quick turn arounds. They can also be restored at relatively low cost. These aircraft were built in the early 70's but some of them have many cycles remaining.

Yeah, no.

Repeat after me: "It's the engines and the weight. It's the engines and the weight. It's the engines and the weight...". That is what is going to decide what plane HA uses to replace the 717. First, the engines must be able to handle the high-stress - short-turnaround schedule the interisland flying requires. The current engines that do well on longer flights won't do well interisland because there isn't enough time to cool down between flights. That is what killed Aloha's attempt to use the 737-300 with CFM engines. After a high power takeoff there isn't enough time to cool off in cruise before descent and landing. Then after a short turn it's back up into the air with a hot engine. AQ burned through a bunch of CFMs before going back to the -200. It is quite possible that the GTF engines will do well interisland because of its design: a smaller and faster turning core should shed heat faster. Airframe weight is also a big factor. Each extra pound costs fuel to lift into the air, and when you're doing 16+ legs per day, those extra pounds really add up in operational cost. That's why mainline planes like the 319 or 737MAX will never be the replacements for the 717. They're simply too heavy for the job. Once the 717s have reached the end of their lives, we should know a lot more about the operating costs and reliability of planes like the C-series, MRJ, E2 jets, etc.

HAL

[quote="hOMSaR"]

Hawaiian's 717 fleet is about 1/3 of their total fleet. There isn't enough "down time" in the rest of their fleet to replace that flying. They still need a small plane that can do a bunch of short hops and quick turns.

Using A321s (or whatever type) in between longer hauls just means less time to actually do maintenance work on those jets. Plus, then you could only schedule interisland flights around when the long hauls are going to be on the ground in Hawaii. That's fine if you want to use the interisland flights to feed the long-hauls, but doesn't do any good for folks that want to fly at other times.

Better just be absorbed into another carrier and let them worry about the replacement...perhaps another carrier with fewer cycles on their 717's? Such a small price to pay for two addt'l HND slots

ericm2031 wrote:

WN runs their 737's pretty rigorously. Seems like they could replace some of their high frequency routes with some of these.

A few weeks ago I took a Southwest flight out of BUR and I timed arrival to pushback was 23 minutes for the turn, and my flight (the departing flight) was completely full. This is on a 737-700.