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Yet shocked how this is not posted up now.

China’s Home-Built Passenger Jet Makes Debut

Comac’s ARJ21 entered service a decade late as the industry struggles to match its western counterparts



A Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China (Comac) ARJ 21-700 regional jet at the Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai, southern China's Guangdong province. PHOTO: AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE/GETTY IMAGES

Nearly a decade after its scheduled launch, China's first home-built passenger plane made its debut Tuesday with a flight from the southwestern city of Chengdu to Shanghai, according to state media.

By CHUN HAN WONG
June 28, 2016 1:45 a.m. ET

China’s first home-built passenger jet entered commercial service on Tuesday in a debut that is already a decade late and underscores problems in Beijing’s bid to become a global aviation player.

Aviation officials, executives and journalists were among the first passengers aboard the ARJ21 regional jet on the Chengdu Airlines flight, which departed the central city of Chengdu after some fanfare featuring ribbon-cutting and a posse of panda mascots. The plane landed in Shanghai just over two hours later, according to state media, which declared the flight a success.

The ARJ21, or Advanced Regional Jet for the 21st century, can carry between 78 and 90 passengers more than 2,200 kilometers, according to its state-owned manufacturer, Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China. Officials originally set a 2006 deadline for the jet’s commercial rollout, but its debut was repeatedly delayed by production setbacks.

The delays, industry experts said, mean that the ARJ21 is entering a more crowded regional-jet market dominated by the likes of Canada’s Bombardier Inc. and Brazil’s Embraer SA. Russia’s Sukhoi Civil Aircraft Co. also makes a regional jet, while Japan’s Mitsubishi Aircraft Corp. will pose a challenge with a new 70-to-90 seater.

Chengdu Airlines took delivery of the ARJ21 in November and hoped to start operations in February. Regulatory approval to launch commercial services finally came through Friday. The carrier didn’t offer specific reasons for the delays, though executives say they racked up nearly 140 hours worth of flight trials to make sure the aircraft is safe and ready.

“There have been various minor problems. This is unavoidable for all aircraft types and they have been dealt with properly,” the government news agency, Xinhua, quoted Chengdu Airlines Deputy General Manager Shuai Zhiyong as saying Tuesday. “Currently, the aircraft is safe.”

Though touted as a homegrown Chinese product, the ARJ21 is influenced by the McDonnell Douglas MD-90 and relies heavily on foreign technology, including avionics from Rockwell Collins Inc., engines from General Electric Co. and a wing designed by Ukraine’s Antonov State Co.

Industry observers say the lengthy approval process reflects cautiousness on the part of the Civil Aviation Administration of China, or CAAC. An earlier Chinese passenger plane, the MA60 twin-turboprop that is based on an old Soviet design, has had tepid sales and a service record marred by a number of accidents at home and abroad.

“China’s goal at this point is to prove to the world that its homegrown aircraft is reliable, competitive and safe,” said Derek Levine, an adjunct professor at the City College of New York and author of The Dragon Takes Flight. “The CAAC’s reputation is on the line.”

The civil aviation administration didn’t respond to a request for comment.

China’s commercial-plane makers have struggled to close the gap with Western aerospace giants, despite significant state largess for a project of national prestige. Analysts estimate the ARJ21 project racked up billions of dollars in costs since development began in 2002. The ARJ21 made its first flight in late 2008, three years behind schedule.

Comac has faced similar problems in its development of a larger jetliner, the C919. A prototype of that 158-to-174 seater was completed in early November, years behind schedule.

Another stumbling block for the ARJ21 is its lack of U.S. and European certification, which means it can’t be exported or flown to major Western markets. Chinese regulators certified the jet in late 2014, allowing it to operate domestically and in certain developing countries in Asia, Africa and South America that recognize the Chinese certification.

The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration last year ended a shadow evaluation of the Chinese aviation authority’s ability to assess airworthiness—a process industry insiders said was fraught with discord over bureaucratic and technical matters. Comac is developing an ARJ21 variant with design changes that will bring the plane in line with U.S. standards.

Delays in the ARJ21’s development means Comac faces an uphill task in upgrading the plane to compete with Western-made rivals that boast superior fuel efficiency and operational performance.

The news agency, Xinhua, in reporting on the debut voyage cited complaints from the plane’s pilot about noise and vibration in the cabin. “The manufacturer has plans to make improvements and we hope that they can resolve the noise and vibration issues,” Xinhua quoted Chengdu Airlines Capt. Zhang Fangjie as saying.

Still, Comac can be assured of sales to Chinese airlines, whose aircraft purchases are controlled by the government. The company has received more than 300 orders for the ARJ21, the majority placed by Chinese airlines and leasing firms. Chengdu Airlines has another 29 ARJ21s on order and expects to take delivery of its second plane in August.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-home ... 1467092704

Sucks about the lack of certification... seems like the perfect plane for G4.

I know some European engineers working for COMAC, mainly on the C919 and they all told me the same thing "I'd never fly on a COMAC made jet". For example one German structural engineer told me they didn't properly account for metal fatigue during tests and calculations. I'm making a mental note to avoid Chengdu airlines for any domestic China flights in the future. I shudder to think of the corners cut on the ARJ-21.

According to a (rare nowadays) unsourced information from wikipedia (en), both ARJ-21 are not operating any sceduled flights since October 30th, 2016. What is happening? Are they operating charter flights only? Are they grounded?

Original orders for the plane were in September 2003, and they still have not been delivered. In fact, only 2 jets have been delivered in total and those over for the last year or so.

the original arj21, which entered into service on June 28, 2016 had operated 70 flights, before being taken out of service for a c-check.

yep, i frequently check them on FR24, and some times they seem to do some techflights out of chengdu. man, this will be a scary ride if i get the chance to book one...

Jetsouth wrote:

the original arj21, which entered into service on June 28, 2016 had operated 70 flights, before being taken out of service for a c-check.

Wow, a "C" check after only 70 flights?

Chinese sites say this is not just a regular C check but also include a lot of service bullet improvement
And the regulation requirement is apparently after 2 years or 4000 hours in service
btw I was recently reading something like ARJ21 is an important trial product that allow comac to try so that they could be corrected in C919

c933103 wrote:

Chinese sites say this is not just a regular C check but also include a lot of service bullet improvement
And the regulation requirement is apparently after 2 years or 4000 hours in service
btw I was recently reading something like ARJ21 is an important trial product that allow comac to try so that they could be corrected in C919

Let's hope so, because I would never fly on this thing.

As far as I can tell, only two ARJ21's have been delivered so far since the initial one in November 2015. What has happened to production and deliveries?

Hang on, thats a DC9! Whats going on here!!

77west wrote:

Hang on, thats a DC9! Whats going on here!!

Isn't it more of a DC-9 fuselage with a new Ukranian designed wing?

Jeez, so much negativity here... I thought people gather here to celebrate aviation without prejudices. A new product launch is not easy. But more competition is never a bad thing. Thought you could do better than this.

Overthecascades wrote:

Jeez, so much negativity here... I thought people gather here to celebrate aviation without prejudices. A new product launch is not easy. But more competition is never a bad thing. Thought you could do better than this.

I wouldn't exactly call it a "new" product

Overthecascades wrote:

Jeez, so much negativity here.

...when did scrutiny of an unproven product, long alleged to have cut corners, come to be "negativity?"

You might want to review the histories of Airbus, Embraer, etc, if you believe that new commercial producers tend to be welcomed with open arms, before they've thoroughly proven themselves on both a safety and efficiency standpoint.

The COMAC ARJ21 just received the First Foreign Certification from the Republic of Congo! Congratulations! Now international sales can start! What a milestone!

http://english.comac.cc/news/latest/201 ... 3745.shtml

Are the Chengdu Airlines planes still in operation? I never find them on flight radar? What's the next airlines to receive that plane? What about the Lao Airlines order? (maybe easier to fly with Lao Airlines than in China or Congo).

debonair wrote:

The COMAC ARJ21 just received the First Foreign Certification from the Republic of Congo! Congratulations! Now international sales can start! What a milestone!

http://english.comac.cc/news/latest/201 ... 3745.shtml

Wow.. Thanks for the laugh! I honestly didn't even know that going to ROC for certification was even a thing. Considering they're on the European banned list, and (as far as I can tell) they have no affiliation with the FAA, I have a hard time seeing how this is anything more than a rubber stamp. It seems weird to me that the Chinese would seek out this "distinction" unless they either wanted an extremely quick certification just for a press release, or they have doubts about its certification from a reputable regulatory agency.

Well, there seems to be no ARJ21's in production or service. Chengdu does not seem to be flying theirs at the moment One of theirs is already in a C check for some time after only 70 flights. C checks after only 70 flights is enough for any airline to take them out of service and go for a more reliable jet. Maybe there are so many things wrong with this plane that the Chinese are quietly shelving it and concentrating on the C919?

Assuming 6 flight segments per day, and C checks are required after 70 flights, means that this jet requires C checks, taking a month or two after each 11 days in passenger service.

debonair wrote:

The COMAC ARJ21 just received the First Foreign Certification from the Republic of Congo! Congratulations! Now international sales can start! What a milestone!

http://english.comac.cc/news/latest/201 ... 3745.shtml

Since the distance from China to Republic of Congo is somewhere around 7000 miles, how would they ferry the craft?
What would it take to secure a fuel-stop landing authorization for a new aircraft which does not yet have airworthiness certificate
in that country?

brianK73 wrote:

debonair wrote:

The COMAC ARJ21 just received the First Foreign Certification from the Republic of Congo! Congratulations! Now international sales can start! What a milestone!

http://english.comac.cc/news/latest/201 ... 3745.shtml

Since the distance from China to Republic of Congo is somewhere around 7000 miles, how would they ferry the craft?
What would it take to secure a fuel-stop landing authorization for a new aircraft which does not yet have airworthiness certificate
in that country?

Plus, based on this plane's reliability, they would probably need to arrange at least 3 C checks for the plane along the way on its delivery flight

Overthecascades wrote:

Jeez, so much negativity here... I thought people gather here to celebrate aviation without prejudices. A new product launch is not easy. But more competition is never a bad thing. Thought you could do better than this.

Growing up onboard the DC-9 and having my profile name after a very cool DC-9-21 ride, part of me like to see the design lives in. Forever DC-9

Another part of me deslike the fact that they used some of the tooling from Douglas without an agreement with the owner. As far as I know, they did not have this authority. If they did, I do enjoy Chinese copies

COMAC may still be struggling with both ARJ21 and C919 but it's always pleasant to hear about new players in a very closed industry. It's only a matter of time before the world's first economy get the manufacturer it deserves.

Personally, I'm happy to see a new competitor in the market if only to make A and B pay attention and up their games. I just hope that the comments and beliefs about the plane's reliability are overblown hyperbole and that it does turn into a reliable and safe workhorse in the spirit of its DC/MD forebears.

I doubt this thing will ever fly in any western "modern" country.

"Comac commends most beautiful COMAC worker of 2016" - http://english.comac.cc/news/latest/201 ... 8088.shtml

Very bizarre indeed, this company would be much better of putting its focus and resources on improving its very substandard ARJ21 rather than trying to find the most beautiful employee.

At this point I think all they care about right now is the C919.

chrisp390 wrote:

"Comac commends most beautiful COMAC worker of 2016" - http://english.comac.cc/news/latest/201 ... 8088.shtml

Very bizarre indeed, this company would be much better of putting its focus and resources on improving its very substandard ARJ21 rather than trying to find the most beautiful employee.

Very apt comparison. I bet they spent billions ¥ and thousands manhours on the latter. Its called building organisational culture. Every single organisation does it albeit in a slight different way.

chrisp390 wrote:

"Comac commends most beautiful COMAC worker of 2016" - http://english.comac.cc/news/latest/201 ... 8088.shtml

Very bizarre indeed, this company would be much better of putting its focus and resources on improving its very substandard ARJ21 rather than trying to find the most beautiful employee.

From the article it seems like they have misused the chinese word for beautiful to refer to workers who shine in their work and then translate into English directly without thinking about their implication...
That said, the article seems to be English only, it does not have a corresponding Chinese article on their Chinese site to verify or disprove this
On the other hand I have found http://www.comac.cc/xwzx/gzdt/201702/09/t20170209_4839608.shtml an article on their site that discuss what Boeing could do to recover the MoM market from A321LR......

Jetsouth wrote:

Assuming 6 flight segments per day, and C checks are required after 70 flights, means that this jet requires C checks, taking a month or two after each 11 days in passenger service.

I know parts of the ARJ-21 where engineering shortcuts were performed that scare me. To save fuel, cutting cooling seems an easy solution. Now how do you get by with less cooling on parts that need cooling?
1. Shorter service life
2. New materials that handle higher temperatures
3. Much more optimized cooling (impingement vs. low velocity convection, add weight in cooling fins/heatsink)
4. Ignore the issue.

COMAC choose door #4. These parts will wear so quickly that new failure modes not seen in Embraer and Bombardier applications of the same parts will happen.

As an engineer, I do not like new failure modes... One of the parts is a copy of a part I know well with a new mounting bracket. I know of a part specific PIP to avoid replacement before 20,000 cycles. I wonder if the copy even has the features added to avoid a failure mode that would result in premature engine overhaul being required... The part I saw would have thermally cracked (low cycle fatigue) as the new housing wasn't built for all known failure modes when bolted to a CF-34...

I wonder what the real reasons for C-checks was.

Maybe COMAC could increase their production beyond that amazing one per year...

I won't fly on the ARJ-21 or C919 until they have FAA, EASA, or Russian certification. No disrespect to Congo, but those are the only three ready to make sure airframers do everything right.

I'll fly the MC-21 or SSJ anyday.

Lightsaber

Overthecascades wrote:

Jeez, so much negativity here... I thought people gather here to celebrate aviation without prejudices. A new product launch is not easy. But more competition is never a bad thing. Thought you could do better than this.

Well given that this aircraft, a modified DC9 design, was launched in the 60's, it is hardly a new product.

Comac came across the tooling when China built MD90's under license from McDD. They stole the tooling, or were given it, and are now marketing a blatant rip-off of the design. Yes it might have a modified wing and new engines, but it is still a rip-off. China is better than this, as they have proven with the C919. Stop stealing other people's designs.

It seems to me that design, development, construction and testing of this aircraft is a learning exercise. If COMAC is struggling to complete a tiny number each year when will production ever rise to a level where the order backlog can be delivered in a reasonable time? Airlines can't wait until the 24th (western) century to get the aircraft they ordered.

I hope that the alarming practices reported by a couple of posters do not result in a spate of accidents costing the lives of hundreds of passengers and crew.

Indeed, Chengdu Airlines, the only airline flying the ARJ21 has taken this plane off their winter and spring schedules. Therefore there are no ARJ21's in passenger service at the moment.

The Cessna 172 at my local aero club has probably carried more passengers than the ARJ21 at this point.

downdata wrote:

I bet they spent billions ¥ and thousands manhours on the latter. Its called building organisational culture. Every single organisation does it albeit in a slight different way.

Soemhow I doubt a Chinese state-owned company would be spending yen instead of RMB, Japan is not their best friend after all...

SomebodyInTLS wrote:

downdata wrote:

I bet they spent billions ¥ and thousands manhours on the latter. Its called building organisational culture. Every single organisation does it albeit in a slight different way.

Soemhow I doubt a Chinese state-owned company would be spending yen instead of RMB, Japan is not their best friend after all...

The ¥ sign symbolizes both the Chinese Yuan and Japanese Yen.
http://fsymbols.com/signs/yen-yuan/
You would do well to hold off those fast fingers and check facts first.

neutrino wrote:

SomebodyInTLS wrote:

downdata wrote:

I bet they spent billions ¥ and thousands manhours on the latter. Its called building organisational culture. Every single organisation does it albeit in a slight different way.

Soemhow I doubt a Chinese state-owned company would be spending yen instead of RMB, Japan is not their best friend after all...

The ¥ sign symbolizes both the Chinese Yuan and Japanese Yen.

Okay, so I learned something new today. I'd never seen that symbol used to denote yuan before.

You would do well to hold off those fast fingers and check facts first.

Sarky!

You are welcome!

77west wrote:

Comac came across the tooling when China built MD90's under license from McDD. They stole the tooling, or were given it, and are now marketing a blatant rip-off of the design. Yes it might have a modified wing and new engines, but it is still a rip-off. China is better than this, as they have proven with the C919. Stop stealing other people's designs.

It is indeed a DC-9/MD-80 fuselage, most likely using the experience and tooling from the MD-80/90 built in China program. That's pretty much where the similarities end. The wing isn't "modified", it is completely new, albeit designed by the Ukrainians. Designing a fuselage and empennage is the smallest part of designing a new airliner anyway, the really tricky part is the organizational aspect, spares network and getting the certification done. The ARJ-21 stumbled over a great bunch of these, and undoubtedly contributed to the C919 not suffering from the same (although it isn't without its own problems either).

77west wrote:

China is better than this, as they have proven with the C919. Stop stealing other people's designs.

China wouldn't have gotten that good with the C919 if it wasn't because they had something to practice with, which is a significant part of the reason for developing the ARJ-21. It was a stepping-stone before going head-to-head with A and B.

This aircraft is also going to be leased by a Thai carrier according to wikipedia.

CanadaFair wrote:

This aircraft is also going to be leased by a Thai carrier according to wikipedia.

Good luck to them.... wonder if they will ever get delivered. If Chegdu Airlines, (a subsidiary of Comac, the builder of the ARJ21) is not even flying them at the moment, the future of the ARJ21 program is really put into question.

Thai carrier was City Airlines, they are not leasing them anymore, but orderss from Laos, Myanmar and Congo govt. listed as is GECAS.

Maybe the Chinese can bootleg tooling for the 757 and make a version of the 757 and destroy A&B in the market. Slap some next gen GE engines in it and watch the orders pile up. The Chinese are the best at copying

DL757NYC wrote:

Maybe the Chinese can bootleg tooling for the 757 and make a version of the 757 and destroy A&B in the market. Slap some next gen GE engines in it and watch the orders pile up. The Chinese are the best at copying

They may copy, but they are not very good at it. The ARJ21 was originally supposed to enter commercial service in 2006/2007. Now, more than 10 years later there are still no ARJ21's in commercial service today. (the two that were have been withdrawn from commercial service after only a few months of service)

China manufactured the MD-80/90 series under license from McDonnell-Douglas/Boeing. This is just using the jigs supplied and tweaking it a little.

Hello,

Had the pleasure to fly B-3321 last Saturday the 25th of February. Route from SHA to CTU via CSX. According to information this is the only scheduled route currently operated by the ARJ21 and only operated three times a week. Nice experience to fly this rare and unique aircraft.

Best regards, Magnus

B2147 wrote:

Hello,

Had the pleasure to fly B-3321 last Saturday the 25th of February. Route from SHA to CTU via CSX. According to information this is the only scheduled route currently operated by the ARJ21 and only operated three times a week. Nice experience to fly this rare and unique aircraft.

Best regards, Magnus

Could you share some more about the experience? Do you have photos?

V/F

Hello,

Originally coming from Sweden and being old enough, the performance reminded a bit of the good old SAS DC-9-21, rocketing take off's.

The aircraft and its interior itself gave a very solid impression with details of high quality and a modern touch.

Best regards,
Magnus