Gate 51 was recently re striped and had a "J-Line" added to aid wide-bodies coming into the gate for proper lining up. They added some unique airplanes to the stop markers, such as the "A350-800, SSJ100/300, MRJ, B787 ALL." So gate 51 can handle all 787 varients, A330, B767 ALL, B757 ALL, A340-300 (Edelweiss) but no -200/500/600, A350-800 (Asiana?) 51 can still hold a 747-400, and 772/L/W.

Gate 48 was taken out of service for the FIs project, therefore, Delta took over Gate 46 from United and DL/UA will share Gate 45 until it becomes a airport gate next year or so. Also last night, gate 45 was re stripped to handle up to a 767-400 for both carriers. Sadly, DL will most likely not be sending much 767s into SAN anymore as their 767A's go to the desert, there are only 3 remaining domestic 767s which are N140LL, N1402A, & N144DA. All due to retire by February of 2018.

Untied has been able to keep the gates they ultimately wanted which was the T2W gates 39-44 and 45 for shared use, whereas, Delta will be moving out of 48-51. The airport reduced both carriers gates down to 6 gates total, Delta will have 47, 46, 38, and 3 other gates TBD.

redrooster3 wrote:

Gate 51 was recently re striped and had a "J-Line" added to aid wide-bodies coming into the gate for proper lining up. They added some unique airplanes to the stop markers, such as the "A350-800, SSJ100/300, MRJ, B787 ALL." So gate 51 can handle all 787 varients, A330, B767 ALL, B757 ALL, A340-300 (Edelweiss) but no -200/500/600, A350-800 (Asiana?) 51 can still hold a 747-400, and 772/L/W.

Gate 48 was taken out of service for the FIs project, therefore, Delta took over Gate 46 from United and DL/UA will share Gate 45 until it becomes a airport gate next year or so. Also last night, gate 45 was re stripped to handle up to a 767-400 for both carriers. Sadly, DL will most likely not be sending much 767s into SAN anymore as their 767A's go to the desert, there are only 3 remaining domestic 767s which are N140LL, N1402A, & N144DA. All due to retire by February of 2018.

Untied has been able to keep the gates they ultimately wanted which was the T2W gates 39-44 and 45 for shared use, whereas, Delta will be moving out of 48-51. The airport reduced both carriers gates down to 6 gates total, Delta will have 47, 46, 38, and 3 other gates TBD.

SSJ100 that's interesting. Either someone is getting an SSJ100 soon or Interjet is about to start service using one of their Suhkoi's to service SAN.

many321 wrote:

SSJ100 that's interesting. Either someone is getting an SSJ100 soon or Interjet is about to start service using one of their Suhkoi's to service SAN.

Interjet came to my mind instantly, also I know Skywest has the MRJs on order.

So I was watching tv tonight and the subject came up that SAN only has one runway. I had no clue, as I have never been to SAN before and have not really looked into SAN much. I also know they have limitations on when they can have take offs because of noise. So my question is, how much capacity do they have? As in, they already have a pretty good amount of traffic, how much more could they handle?

Also, has San Diego looked into building another airport or is the current setup good enough? It looks like there isn't room for another runway.

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/lufthansa ... 0613-00343
The company said, by the beginning of summer in 2018, it will start operating five weekly San Diego flights from Frankfurt!

humm... what do you guys think about the upcoming launch of Hainan's PVG-TIJ and its attractiveness to San Diego population?

SAN also is getting service to Frankfurt!

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1365635

Congrats Lufthansa! Will they continue Edelweiss and Condor flights as well?

Jshank83 wrote:

So I was watching tv tonight and the subject came up that SAN only has one runway. I had no clue, as I have never been to SAN before and have not really looked into SAN much. I also know they have limitations on when they can have take offs because of noise. So my question is, how much capacity do they have? As in, they already have a pretty good amount of traffic, how much more could they handle?

Also, has San Diego looked into building another airport or is the current setup good enough? It looks like there isn't room for another runway.

Yes, there have been quite a few proposals over the years. Most vocally a group has tried to propose using (either solely or jointly with the Marines like Yuma) MCAS Miramar or more recently a site at MCB Camp Pendleton. There's also been proposals for Boulevard which is far east of the City and another at Brown Field (either by itself or a joint binational airport with Tijuana that was mostly shelved after the CBX opened). And a floating airport like Kansai has also been waved around.

There is no room for a second runway. Infrastructure around the airport as well as terrain has limited this.

c933103 wrote:

humm... what do you guys think about the upcoming launch of Hainan's PVG-TIJ and its attractiveness to San Diego population?

While they could market it to the San Diego population who would like a flight to China without the hassle of LAX, it is mostly marketed to growing business traffic between Mexico and China, with a lot of centered around maquiladoras in Baja. It'd be interesting to see the demographics and traffic patterns of US origin CBX passengers and how many use TIJ to connect at say MEX to other countries and if they'd respond to international flights from TIJ. I've long thought a carrier could use TIJ to connect Asia with Latin America since transit visas would be much easier for most citizens to obtain for Mexico and the carriers could market it as having the benefit of having a port of entry for the U.S. at the airport via CBX.

SANAV8R wrote:

Congrats Lufthansa! Will they continue Edelweiss and Condor flights as well?

Jshank83 wrote:

So I was watching tv tonight and the subject came up that SAN only has one runway. I had no clue, as I have never been to SAN before and have not really looked into SAN much. I also know they have limitations on when they can have take offs because of noise. So my question is, how much capacity do they have? As in, they already have a pretty good amount of traffic, how much more could they handle?

Also, has San Diego looked into building another airport or is the current setup good enough? It looks like there isn't room for another runway.

Yes, there have been quite a few proposals over the years. Most vocally a group has tried to propose using (either solely or jointly with the Marines like Yuma) MCAS Miramar or more recently a site at MCB Camp Pendleton. There's also been proposals for Boulevard which is far east of the City and another at Brown Field (either by itself or a joint binational airport with Tijuana that was mostly shelved after the CBX opened). And a floating airport like Kansai has also been waved around.

There is no room for a second runway. Infrastructure around the airport as well as terrain has limited this.

c933103 wrote:

humm... what do you guys think about the upcoming launch of Hainan's PVG-TIJ and its attractiveness to San Diego population?

While they could market it to the San Diego population who would like a flight to China without the hassle of LAX, it is mostly marketed to growing business traffic between Mexico and China, with a lot of centered around maquiladoras in Baja. It'd be interesting to see the demographics and traffic patterns of US origin CBX passengers and how many use TIJ to connect at say MEX to other countries and if they'd respond to international flights from TIJ. I've long thought a carrier could use TIJ to connect Asia with Latin America since transit visas would be much easier for most citizens to obtain for Mexico and the carriers could market it as having the benefit of having a port of entry for the U.S. at the airport via CBX.

Condor is not an LH entity (they're owned by the Thomas Cook Group), so what they do is anyone's guess (although i think it'd be great for them to come back and stand their ground against LH). As for Edelweiss, because they are a leisure airline and tend to sell vacation packages I think they stand a good chance of returning next summer if they get good loads this summer.

As for Hainan at TIJ, I could definitely see it wooing pax from both side of the border, as well as pax who commute up to LAX for nonstops to China.

[quote="SANAV8R"]Congrats Lufthansa! Will they continue Edelweiss and Condor flights as well?


Edelweiss has committed to an extended season in 2018, however I cannot see Condor overlapping with LH on the FRA-SAN flights. Congrats to SAN. Good things come to people who wait and I have been waiting for 50 years for this flight. Very proud of San Diego and the international recognition it has been getting lately.

SANAV8R wrote:

Congrats Lufthansa! Will they continue Edelweiss and Condor flights as well?

I agree with Coronado990. Edelweiss will be back from what they've said, but it will be interesting to see if Condor returns... can SAN handle two carriers on one intercontinental route? I wonder what equipment LH is planning to use? Cityline A340-300? Mainline A330-300?

Coronado990 wrote:

SANAV8R wrote:

Congrats Lufthansa! Will they continue Edelweiss and Condor flights as well?

Edelweiss has committed to an extended season in 2018, however I cannot see Condor overlapping with LH on the FRA-SAN flights. Congrats to SAN. Good things come to people who wait and I have been waiting for 50 years for this flight. Very proud of San Diego and the international recognition it has been getting lately.

YES! Agreed -- some of us have been patiently waiting for decades... and we are seeing some very exciting things finally coming to our corner of the world!!!!

LH has been rumored for years to be interested in and carefully looking at Lindbergh Field as a possible new US destination. Those rumors have been pretty hot this year, with hints that summer of 2018 would see some additional service to Europe; the urgency to improve our FIS facilities before next summer as expressed by Hampton Brown, and the resultant approval by the SDCRAA board to start the project immediately, have certainly been born out!

Condor and Edelweiss have been welcomed news to be sure, but LH supports the expansion of both business and leisure travel with nonstop service to another world class mega-hub with world-wide connections available. I'm not clear on the a/c to be used, or whether this new service will be year-round -- I'm betting it WILL be -- or even what division of LH will offer this new route to FRA, but this is a great show of support for our region in the intercontinental air travel arena!

This is truly wonderful news for SAN! I look forward to additional details regarding this very important announcement as they become available!

bb

Congrats SAN! This is great news.

Regarding equipment for LH, can the A333 make it given SAN's unique topography and performance requirements?

I was speculating in another thread that this may be a cue that LH is going mainline in TPA, sending the 5X weekly CL A343 to SAN. That lines up with rumors that have been swirling around TPA.

Regarding WK, there's no reason to think they can't coexist with mama LH. In TPA they have remained steady at 3x S/2x W since LH arrived, and with the exception of Fridays they have scheduled their flights to arrive on days when LH doesn't serve the airport. In a way, they complement each other from a network perspective. (Tour packages are a big part of WK's business, but they also produce local demand and offer very decent connectivity over Swiss's network.)

I knew it was just a matter of time before LH showed up! As for the aircraft used for this route, they could
possibly be planning to send a brand new A350 our way? I know the rumor about Hainan starting TIJ-PVG
keeps popping up, but I just don't see it anywhere! Wikipedia doesn't even list it. (Although they are now
listing LH starting SAN-FRA next summer.) If Hainan starts TIJ-PVG, I wonder if AM is planning to drop
the route? As for LH, I remember several years ago Thella Bowen traveled to NYC to talk with Lufthansa
executives, and some LH executives visited Lindbergh to check out the facilities.

Wow, this is huge news that I totally missed until reading this thread just now. Congrats to LH and SAN!! And all the local spotters too of course. lol

Fingers crossed that we'll see OZ or KE here in SAN next year.

We finally got our SAN-TPA non stop per Southwest Airlines! http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/bus ... story.html

Starts January 8th.

Confirmation of LH service start date and equipment:

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... f-21jun17/

Mainline A340-300, beginning March 25, 2018.

san747 wrote:

Confirmation of LH service start date and equipment: Mainline A340-300, beginning March 25, 2018.

And the flight will operate daily except Wed/Fri, and year-round!! (None of this seasonal nonsense -- LH is serious about this!)

The timing is also interesting: arrival in SAN will be 1:20pm, with the departure at 3:20pm. Perhaps once the new FIS facilities are finished in June, things will change a bit. But in March, we will only be seeing JL, BA and LH widebodies (can you believe that!!!!??) plus lots of Mexico arrivals. Assuming both Edelweiss and Condor continue to operate in 2018, things will start getting interesting next April -- when WK is scheduled to begin their flights -- and I'm not sure when DE is supposed to begin flights next year.

And who knows (well Hampton probably does, but he's not saying) what else might happen next year?

redrooster3 wrote:

We finally got our SAN-TPA non stop per Southwest Airlines! Starts January 8th.

YES! And this route is listed as daily and year-round from the git-go!

Was AAG going to jump on this routes in 2018? Did WN suspect that and beat them to it? Might AAG STILL start the route as well?!

The domestic scene at SAN is sure getting fun to watch, seeing both of our Focus City-carriers dueling it out at snatching new routes, while F9, G4 and NK have even made a few surprising moves as well.

bb

SANFan wrote:

we will only be seeing JL, BA and LH widebodies (can you believe that!!!!??) plus lots of Mexico arrivals. Assuming both Edelweiss and Condor continue to operate in 2018, things will start getting interesting next April -- when WK is scheduled to begin their flights -- and I'm not sure when DE is supposed to begin flights next year.
And who knows (well Hampton probably does, but he's not saying) what else might happen next year?bb

I'm really hoping Condor will stick around, but I think LH scared them off. I have a feeling that Edelweiss will
stay, (keep in mind that they're part of the Lufthansa group), our Condor bird will probably be the one that goes
to PHX when DE starts PHX next year. I'm just wondering where's the advertising for Edelweiss? I haven't seen
any around town unless they are marketing this flight in Europe. My guess for the next European airline would
be Norwegian, they seem to be expanding very fast in the U.S., and possibly on the Asian side KE, since they
recently signed a JV with Delta. Could Skyteam send a couple of int'l carriers our way like Oneworld? On the
domestic side of things, I'm looking for that SAN-RDU flight. I've been very impressed by our airport!!

SANFan wrote:

The domestic scene at SAN is sure getting fun to watch, seeing both of our Focus City-carriers dueling it out at snatching new routes, while F9, G4 and NK have even made a few surprising moves as well.bb

As I was saying in the earlier post I'm looking for SAN-RDU (Most of my relatives are in the Raleigh area).
who do you think will start up this route? AS or WN? It could possibly be DL. I had been waiting for NK to
start RDU, but they don't seen interested.

Apart from DCA, what other domestic routes are currently not served but could see service from SAN, even if seasonal? Would AS consider ANC?

SANMAN66 wrote:

SANFan wrote:

we will only be seeing JL, BA and LH widebodies (can you believe that!!!!??) plus lots of Mexico arrivals. Assuming both Edelweiss and Condor continue to operate in 2018, things will start getting interesting next April -- when WK is scheduled to begin their flights -- and I'm not sure when DE is supposed to begin flights next year.
And who knows (well Hampton probably does, but he's not saying) what else might happen next year?bb

I'm really hoping Condor will stick around, but I think LH has driven them out. I have a feeling that Edelweiss will
stay, (keep in mind that they're part of the Lufthansa group), our Condor bird will probably be the one that goes
to PHX when DE starts PHX next year. I'm just wondering where's the advertising for Edelweiss? I haven't seen
any around town unless they are marketing this flight in Europe. My guess for the next European airline would
be Norwegian, they seem to be expanding very fast in the U.S., and possibly on the Asian side KE, since they
recently signed a JV with Delta. Could Skyteam send a couple of int'l carriers our way like Oneworld? On the
domestic side of things, I'm looking for that SAN-RDU flight. I've been very impressed by our airport!!

Kettner & Hawthorn above go-car, right as you cross the train tracks behind the Hilton Garden Inn is a giant billboard for Edelweiss/Zurich. Also KYXY has been talking about it. I remember a Condor billboard also at the corner of Euclid & Home Ave in City Heights which I thought was odd.

I feel like a SkyTeam carrier will be next. KE or AF would be great additions. With BA, JL and now LH, surely other intl carriers are noticing SAN and the FIS expansion.

SANAV8R wrote:

Kettner & Hawthorn above go-car, right as you cross the train tracks behind the Hilton Garden Inn is a giant billboard for Edelweiss/Zurich. Also KYXY has been talking about it. I remember a Condor billboard also at the corner of Euclid & Home Ave in City Heights which I thought was odd.

I'm glad there's some advertising for WK, I've seen so many billboards around town for Condor, but I guess there are
advertisements for Edelweiss in parts of town I haven't been in lately. Radio ads will really get the word out. AF or KE would really be the icing on the cake for SAN! I'm just wondering if Skyteam may want to duplicate the success of
Oneworld in SAN? Is KLM part of Skyteam also? I'm also wondering if United or Star Alliance had anything to do with LH coming?

Someone on another thread posted that DE was indeed dropping SAN next year (and yes, SANMAN', probably using it for PHX instead) but I have no idea if that's correct or not. (I mean, starting FRA-PHX in the summer!?) We'll see what happens but I also think that is a great possibility.

There seems to be some talk about SAN-RDU -- which, with SAN-TPA now announced, has become one of the largest un-served markets from SAN -- but it's hard to say when or which will be the first carrier to jump? I would say the prime choices would be AAG or WN but...

Has anyone checked lately? The last time I looked, there was no easy way to book a trip on WK originating in SAN! In fact, during the (I think) May SDCRAA board meeting, one of the board members brought up the possibility that the airline would sell trips originating on this end. In any case, I'm pretty sure that Edelweiss figures on selling at least a majority of their seats for Zurich-originating travelers! (And I also agree that WK will stay in SAN.)

There was also a strong rumor late last year that Thomas Cook was looking at adding MAN-SAN service soon -- maybe 2018?.

bb

SANFan wrote:

Has anyone checked lately? The last time I looked, there was no easy way to book a trip on WK originating in SAN! In fact, during the (I think) May SDCRAA board meeting, one of the board members brought up the possibility that the airline would sell trips originating on this end. In any case, I'm pretty sure that Edelweiss figures on selling at least a majority of their seats for Zurich-originating travelers! (And I also agree that WK will stay in SAN.)
bb

I find it odd that WK would have billboards up to advertise their service but not be able to sell out of SAN. That would mean the first flight of the season returning back to ZRH would go out empty. Maybe that would explain the first trip of the 2018 season. The schedule shows it will start on a Tuesday May 8th and arrive SAN at 9:45pm with a quick 90 minute turnaround. The 11:15pm pushback will give them a tight 15 minutes to beat the 11:30pm curfew! The next Tuesday has a more normal late afternoon/early evening schedule like what we have been currently seeing. After those two odd Tuesday flights, it reverts back to Monday and Friday's throughout the summer and into the fall ending in late October.

Coronado990 wrote:

I find it odd that WK would have billboards up to advertise their service but not be able to sell out of SAN. That would mean the first flight of the season returning back to ZRH would go out empty. Maybe that would explain the first trip of the 2018 season. The schedule shows it will start on a Tuesday May 8th and arrive SAN at 9:45pm with a quick 90 minute turnaround. The 11:15pm pushback will give them a tight 15 minutes to beat the 11:30pm curfew! The next Tuesday has a more normal late afternoon/early evening schedule like what we have been currently seeing. After those two odd Tuesday flights, it reverts back to Monday and Friday's throughout the summer and into the fall ending in late October.

Interesting detective work and sensible conclusions, D.

BTW, I thought the 2018 service was supposed to run from April thru November. Maybe I have outdated info that was based on a n article in the SDU-T last April. Perhaps WK changed their start-date next year because LH will be starting in late March, and who knows what BA might be doing then...

That being said, I would guess that those weird beginning flights next year have something to do with the new FIS facilities not being ready until sometime in June! SDIA is going to need a big shoehorn and a lot of luck to get thru May and early June in 2018 when they're still using the old (current) FIS gates! There is talk that Condor will not be back next summer, starting PHX-service instead. That would make life a bit easier for the gate-planners!

I don't know that Edelweiss can't sell trips originating in the U.S. but the website seemed to make it hard to do so; maybe you need to be in a 'U.S.' or 'English' section of the website and I wasn't when I looked around. But you're right -- they wouldn't be advertising here if they weren't selling trips starting here...

bb

SANFan wrote:

There was also a strong rumor late last year that Thomas Cook was looking at adding MAN-SAN service soon -- maybe 2018?.

bb

I remember that rumor! But we were mostly speculating which carrier would serve "SANMAN"
I was thinking maybe Virgin Atlantic, British Airways, or maybe Thomson Airways, I'm thinking that if
Condor does okay here, maybe Thomas Cook will send a bird our way, (since DE is a part of Thomas Cook).
or we could get Virgin Atlantic that has a seasonal LAS-MAN flight, or still the possibility of Norwegian doing
SAN-MAN? (Norwegian is a strange airline).

Christoph Debus, the head of Thomas Cook did very recently indicate MAN-SAN was a target route, but no timescale given.

MT are expected to take another A330 next summer, so, there is a chance we could see the route. MAN-TPA is also rumoured.

You can (could?) book TPA-ZRH-XXX flights on the Swiss site, since all WK flights carry the Swiss code as well. Usually the WK site will redirect you if you try US POS, but it should be very easy. Wonder what gives.

Love how SAN and TPA seem to be living parallel air service development lives, and now get connected. May we both see MT in 2018.

axiom wrote:

You can (could?) book TPA-ZRH-XXX flights on the Swiss site, since all WK flights carry the Swiss code as well. Usually the WK site will redirect you if you try US POS, but it should be very easy. Wonder what gives.

Love how SAN and TPA seem to be living parallel air service development lives, and now get connected.

May we both see MT in 2018.

I'll drink to that! Yes, lots of parallels between the 2 cities and it is nice to see them both finally being discovered, recognized, and getting much-deserved air service.

User001 wrote:

Christoph Debus, the head of Thomas Cook did very recently indicate MAN-SAN was a target route, but no timescale given.
MT are expected to take another A330 next summer, so, there is a chance we could see the route. MAN-TPA is also rumoured.

Fingers crossed that the rumor proves correct in 2018!

I wonder if next year might just see the dam burst? Could it be possible that several (more) foreign flags desire to start serving Lindbergh Field but have been holding off until the FIS digs are bigger and better than ever, like oh, maybe summer of 2018?! We must remember that next year will see 4 int'l arrival gates, but summer of 2019 will see 2 additional gates connected to the FIS. I'd be willing to bet that a handful of people at SDIA know a lot that we don't about the near-term future of int'l air service here, and are getting prepared for it as best -- and quickly -- as they can.

Also, for anyone interested in some details of what WN is up to lately in SAN, I just went thru their latest schedule release which opens the booking window from Jan 8, 2018, for 2 more months. Keep in mind that this is the dead of winter, post-holidays schedule.

SAN will see 106 daily departures to 31 or 32 different destinations (depending on whether MKE is included in the count.) That is 8 more departures than the 2017 Jan schedule (y-o-y) and 4 more flights than the preceding (Nov 2017) schedule! Five markets will see increases in the number of flights, plus TPA will be starting. MCI and STL will get 2 flights each for the first time (on a January schedule) plus 2 of the Bay Area airports will see increased frequencies. And this is for January, folks!

What jumps out to me is that most of the markets getting increased capacity, by WN, even in January and February, are markets coincidentally now being served by, you guessed it, AAG. Surprised? Not at all. But, as suspected, 2018 promises to be quite a year of competition between the 2 cx!

bb

User001 wrote:

Christoph Debus, the head of Thomas Cook did very recently indicate MAN-SAN was a target route, but no timescale given.

MT are expected to take another A330 next summer, so, there is a chance we could see the route. MAN-TPA is also rumoured.

It may be confusing to some people that a Thomas Cook jet may show up in the same livery as Condor (with that little heart on the tail), although Thomas Cook has A330's and Condor has 767's.

According to a user on this forum, SAN, MSY and TPA are all contenders for a flight to MAN for MT's Summer 2018 schedule.
https://www.forums4airports.com/threads/550/page-16

FLYKTPA wrote:

According to a user on this forum, SAN, MSY and TPA are all contenders for a flight to MAN for MT's Summer 2018 schedule.

Interesting reading, FLYK'; thanx for the link. It looks like there's a real possibility (given the currently known skeds for 2018) of perhaps 2 new, twice-weekly routes from MAN by MT next year. I assume many of us here on A.net will be watching and waiting to see how this plays out. Given that the lead-time lately for announcements of new int'l routes seems to be about a year, maybe we'll hear pretty soon if MT is in fact going to add a new destination or two in the U.S. next summer.

On another subject, given what WN is doing in early 2018 at SAN (see earlier post), I expect we might hear something pretty soon from AAG regarding their early-2018 plans. We already know they are adding SAN-DAL to their route map in February '18.

Will AS jump on anything else: new routes currently unserved from SAN (e.g. RDU, ORF, SBA, MZT, SBP, GDL); some of the recently-added WN routes such as IND, GEG, TPA and MKE; add frequency/capacity to some of AS's existing SAN routes like BOS; or new routes for AAG that are already served by others, like JFK, OAK, ELP, PHX, RNO or DTW? IMO, there's still lots of growth ahead for AAG here in SAN and I fully expect they will keep responding to the pressure being applied by WN, F9 and NK.

I haven't seen official confirmation yet from SDCRAA or SDIA, but AAG apparently has a big move coming in 1H2018 -- relocating to T2E with their partner, AA! Alaska and Horizon should gain some much-needed space (read: gates!) to ease their expansion and continued growth at Lindbergh.

bb

SANFan wrote:

FLYKTPA wrote:

According to a user on this forum, SAN, MSY and TPA are all contenders for a flight to MAN for MT's Summer 2018 schedule.

Interesting reading, FLYK'; thanx for the link. It looks like there's a real possibility (given the currently known skeds for 2018) of perhaps 2 new, twice-weekly routes from MAN by MT next year. I assume many of us here on A.net will be watching and waiting to see how this plays out. Given that the lead-time lately for announcements of new int'l routes seems to be about a year, maybe we'll hear pretty soon if MT is in fact going to add a new destination or two in the U.S. next summer.

On another subject, given what WN is doing in early 2018 at SAN (see earlier post), I expect we might hear something pretty soon from AAG regarding their early-2018 plans. We already know they are adding SAN-DAL to their route map in February '18.

Will AS jump on anything else: new routes currently unserved from SAN (e.g. RDU, ORF, SBA, MZT, SBP, GDL); some of the recently-added WN routes such as IND, GEG, TPA and MKE; add frequency/capacity to some of AS's existing SAN routes like BOS; or new routes for AAG that are already served by others, like JFK, OAK, ELP, PHX, RNO or DTW? IMO, there's still lots of growth ahead for AAG here in SAN and I fully expect they will keep responding to the pressure being applied by WN, F9 and NK.

I haven't seen official confirmation yet from SDCRAA or SDIA, but AAG apparently has a big move coming in 1H2018 -- relocating to T2E with their partner, AA! Alaska and Horizon should gain some much-needed space (read: gates!) to ease their expansion and continued growth at Lindbergh.

bb

SAN has been on a role lately, I'm impressed looking through this thread...

One thing to note is that WN, at least for now, is keeping the IND-SAN route very seasonal (JUN-AUG) so there is an opportunity for AS to add that during the winter/fall/spring with no competition...
ORF seems unlikely considering ORF doesn't have AS to SEA yet
GEG could also be served when the WN seasonal flight ends as well
Out of the unserved routes mentioned, at least for Q1, ORF has highest O&D followed by IND, RDU all of which have enough O&D to make a 737 work... so my guess is as good as any.

Midwestindy wrote:

SAN has been on a role lately, I'm impressed looking through this thread...

One thing to note is that WN, at least for now, is keeping the IND-SAN route very seasonal (JUN-AUG) so there is an opportunity for AS to add that during the winter/fall/spring with no competition...
ORF seems unlikely considering ORF doesn't have AS to SEA yet
GEG could also be served when the WN seasonal flight ends as well
Out of the unserved routes mentioned, at least for Q1, ORF has highest O&D followed by IND, RDU all of which have enough O&D to make a 737 work... so my guess is as good as any.

I posted just a bit ago over on the (real) IND thread concerning AS and IND and I definitely agree with you, Midwest'. AS should jump asap and hopefully start the route before WN gets it going again.

However, re: ORF, there's no particular reason that SEA-ORF has to start before AAG could choose to start flying SAN-ORF. The latter is a much larger market that certainly has the pax traffic for daily, year-round nonstop service. SAN is an Alaska focus city so there's really no good reason that a healthy, currently unserved market from here couldn't be served without existing service from SEA or PDX, or anywhere else. In June 2012, AS began flying SAN-MRY, their only route to MRY at that time. In fact, later this year, when LA-MRY is dropped, and there still is no service between SEA and MRY, SAN will again be the only route served by AAG from Monterey. I also think ELP could be another new city for AS, served nonstop only from SAN; the EMJ would be the perfect a/c for the route.

I fear that SAN-ORF is a low-yielding market even though it would certainly support a daily, permanent nonstop. Also, it is primarily flown by Navy folks whom might be restricted to flying only the carrier with the govt travel contract. I don't know who currently holds that contract, but they certainly are not flying between the two cities. (I wouldn't be surprised if there were a nice amount of military freight/cargo that might travel on such a nonstop flight...)

I too think SAN-GEG is a perfect fit for an EMJ and am surprised that AAG hasn't already announced that route as well. Will Alaska be the first to grab the SAN-RDU market? I know they have a L-O-N-G list of routes they want to start and limited new a/c coming in, so we'll just see what happens next.

bb

So much is happening at SAN, it's awesome to read up on it and I'm very happy to see that SAN has good things coming.

I wanted to ask, what's this curfew thing that I hear about with SAN? Someone please elaborate.

flymco753 wrote:

So much is happening at SAN, it's awesome to read up on it and I'm very happy to see that SAN has good things coming.

I wanted to ask, what's this curfew thing that I hear about with SAN? Someone please elaborate.

No takeoffs between 2330 and 0630. Many morning flights are scheduled to depart earlier than 0630 but that is only so they can try getting to the runway first. Any flight that takes off during this period is subject to a fine (apparently a fine big enough that no one seems to break the 2330 rule on a regular basis). I should note though that SAN is always open for arrivals despite the departure curfew.

SANFan wrote:

Will AS jump on anything else: new routes currently unserved from SAN (e.g. RDU, ORF, SBA, MZT, SBP, GDL); some of the recently-added WN routes such as IND, GEG, TPA and MKE; add frequency/capacity to some of AS's existing SAN routes like BOS; or new routes for AAG that are already served by others, like JFK, OAK, ELP, PHX, RNO or DTW? IMO, there's still lots of growth ahead for AAG here in SAN and I fully expect they will keep responding to the pressure being applied by WN, F9 and NK.

I haven't seen official confirmation yet from SDCRAA or SDIA, but AAG apparently has a big move coming in 1H2018 -- relocating to T2E with their partner, AA! Alaska and Horizon should gain some much-needed space (read: gates!) to ease their expansion and continued growth at Lindbergh. bb

Filling in the American Southwest and Baja California plus Cancun would really give AS an edge. If I was them (and I'm not) I would add ELP and OKC non-stops with E175's. Then add the competitive markets of TUS, PHX, SAT and COS to make them the go-to airline in the region. In Baja, they could add LTO and LAP complimenting their frequent SJD service making SAN an important gateway to Baja. Last I checked, there are no TIJ-LTO flights so there is no CBX competition on this segment. And speaking of TIJ, there is only one non-stop a week on Saturdays from TIJ-CUN. I think San Diego must be the largest metro in the US without non-stops to the resort so I am surprised Alaska doesn't fly there already.

ANC would be an excellent add for AS. Even if it was once a week in the summer. Maybe a ANC-SAN-SJD continuation flight.

The curfew I would guess would be the thing that is holding back AS from starting DTW. The most ideal flight time would be a red-eye departure from SAN to DTW, and a morning departure from DTW to SAN, if they left before the curfew, you'd get into DTW at 4-ish in the morning, that's not so ideal.

flymco753 wrote:

The curfew I would guess would be the thing that is holding back AS from starting DTW. The most ideal flight time would be a red-eye departure from SAN to DTW, and a morning departure from DTW to SAN, if they left before the curfew, you'd get into DTW at 4-ish in the morning, that's not so ideal.

Delta runs a red-eye at times (including currently) that departs at 10:30 PM and typically arrives around 5:30 AM. If they can make it work, I'm sure Alaska could.

timf wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

The curfew I would guess would be the thing that is holding back AS from starting DTW. The most ideal flight time would be a red-eye departure from SAN to DTW, and a morning departure from DTW to SAN, if they left before the curfew, you'd get into DTW at 4-ish in the morning, that's not so ideal.

Delta runs a red-eye at times (including currently) that departs at 10:30 PM and typically arrives around 5:30 AM. If they can make it work, I'm sure Alaska could.

I'm not sure AS would want to pay the fine even with incentives though. As the route matures, I would definitely think they would pay it. There is also a risk AS is taking, if they add SAN-DTW, NK might jump on it as well, so that would be an increase from monopolized 2x daily in the fall/winter/spring to probably 4x daily in the fall/winter/spring and up to 6x in the summer, my calculations though show the city pair is growing, so there could be room for more flights but I don't know about it being that close together.

flymco753 wrote:

timf wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

The curfew I would guess would be the thing that is holding back AS from starting DTW. The most ideal flight time would be a red-eye departure from SAN to DTW, and a morning departure from DTW to SAN, if they left before the curfew, you'd get into DTW at 4-ish in the morning, that's not so ideal.

Delta runs a red-eye at times (including currently) that departs at 10:30 PM and typically arrives around 5:30 AM. If they can make it work, I'm sure Alaska could.

I'm not sure AS would want to pay the fine even with incentives though. As the route matures, I would definitely think they would pay it. There is also a risk AS is taking, if they add SAN-DTW, NK might jump on it as well, so that would be an increase from monopolized 2x daily in the fall/winter/spring to probably 4x daily in the fall/winter/spring and up to 6x in the summer, my calculations though show the city pair is growing, so there could be room for more flights but I don't know about it being that close together.

Doesn't the curfew start at 11:30? A flight scheduled to leave at 10:30 would have an hour to spare before any fines were encountered.

Coronado990 wrote:

Filling in the American Southwest and Baja California plus Cancun would really give AS an edge. If I was them (and I'm not) I would add ELP and OKC non-stops with E175's. Then add the competitive markets of TUS, PHX, SAT and COS to make them the go-to airline in the region. In Baja, they could add LTO and LAP complimenting their frequent SJD service making SAN an important gateway to Baja. Last I checked, there are no TIJ-LTO flights so there is no CBX competition on this segment. And speaking of TIJ, there is only one non-stop a week on Saturdays from TIJ-CUN. I think San Diego must be the largest metro in the US without non-stops to the resort so I am surprised Alaska doesn't fly there already.

ANC would be an excellent add for AS. Even if it was once a week in the summer. Maybe a ANC-SAN-SJD continuation flight.

Our full wish-lists for AAG are undoubtedly very similar. However, I've never thought there was much of a market between SAN and CUN; F9 tried the route briefly (and once weekly) some years ago. But I would love to see AS give it a try. I would also love to see them start SAN-GDL; we'll see how MEX does. LTO, with either a Q or an EMJ, would be a winner I'm sure. And ANC? As a growing focus city, it seems that a nonstop to the AS hub in Alaska might be a natural. I think it could run year-round but prolly not daily.

flymco753 wrote:

The curfew I would guess would be the thing that is holding back AS from starting DTW. The most ideal flight time would be a red-eye departure from SAN to DTW, and a morning departure from DTW to SAN, if they left before the curfew, you'd get into DTW at 4-ish in the morning, that's not so ideal.

The curfew doesn't seem to cause too many problems with redeyes out of SAN.

DL runs their night flight departing SD at 10:30p, with the arrival in DTW at 5:51am; that gives them a full hour to roll down the runway without a penalty. AS currently continues to run their new SAN-BWI red-eye with a 10:55pm departure; and AA & UA both fly to ORD with a 10:50pm departure and a 4:50am arrival and 10:45pm, arriving ORD at 4:38am, respectively.

I do expect we'll see some additional redeyes from the AAG folks -- such as perhaps BOS and maybe even JFK -- but I would expect that if AS starts DTW, it would be a morning departure from here, with an evening return. Just my opinions...

bb

We'll see, I know that in the next 365 days, someone will announce it, either AS or NK, both seem to be as likely as the other.

flymco753 wrote:

We'll see, I know that in the next 365 days, someone will announce it, either AS or NK, both seem to be as likely as the other.

OR, maybe both!? Especially if each cx chose different times for their service. Both AAG and NK currently operate redeyes from SAN -- both to BWI, come to think of it -- but generally speaking, redeyes are not usually as popular out of the west coast as daylight flights. Incidentally, I wouldn't leave WN off the list of potential airlines either...

I actually think that AAG will eventually move their BWI redeye to a daytime departure, just as they did with their MCO flight following its first year of being a red-eye. Factors include aircraft availability, gate issues, etc.

BTW, regarding the fines paid at SAN for departing after 23:30, earlier this year, the data shows one airline was fined $10,000 for a violation, another flight got fined $30,000, and one delayed departure cost the carrier $40,000! SDIA is very serious in their efforts to be "good neighbors" to those living near the runway takeoff corridor. The data for each violation, including cx name, flight number, date and time of violation, and penalty amount, are found on the SDIA website here: http://www.san.org/Airport-Authority/Me ... view-Panel and the general policy explaining the curfew is found here: http://www.san.org/Airport-Noise/Initia ... view-panel

All curfew violations are reviewed by a panel and many are discarded due to the circumstances, such as local weather, or mx issues.

bb

Not surprisingly, Condor has pulled SANFRA from the GDS for next summer.

MAH4546 wrote:

Not surprisingly, Condor has pulled SANFRA from the GDS for next summer.

Yeah, LH announced SAN just 2 weeks ago, on June 13, and in that short time period, DE substituted PHX for SAN in their 2018 schedules! Didn't take them long, did it? My guess is that Condor knew this -- LH starting SAN -- was going to happen sooner or later but probably not this soon. Otherwise, I can't imagine DE would have gone to the effort of starting a brand new intercontinental route for only 1 season; that process has to involve lots of time, effort, and money! Unless...

There has been some increasing interest (read: rumors) about TCX (T COOK) looking at starting SAN-MAN on MT perhaps as early as nest summer; there's now a separate new thread on it. Along those lines, I wonder if the fact that Condor is a part of TCX, as is Thomas Cook, might influence the choice(s) of expected new MAN-U.S. routes?

In other words, is TCX 'sold' on SAN as a destination -- since they started FRA-SAN with their DE unit -- and will happily (and quickly!) replace that service with another route, MAN-SAN, using their MT unit? If that reasoning is correct, then I wouldn't be surprised to hear an announcement in a few months that MT will replace DE here next summer.

As a bonus, perhaps some of that time, effort and $$ invested in getting DE started here, would easily be applied to a MT start-up in SAN.

What do others think?

bb

^It's perfectly reasonable to think that Thomas Cook would want to take advantage of all of the infrastructure they've established at SAN. I imagine the costs were low (outsourced everything), but that's still got to be a consideration -- relationships, partners, known operational variables. They run a lean operation.

axiom wrote:

^It's perfectly reasonable to think that Thomas Cook would want to take advantage of all of the infrastructure they've established at SAN. I imagine the costs were low (outsourced everything), but that's still got to be a consideration -- relationships, partners, known operational variables. They run a lean operation.

Thanks for your thoughts, Ax'. Yes, it's really just a substitution of one route for another by the 'same' carrier.

Maybe TCX had this plan all along: since SAN-FRA had no service, but they knew LH was lurking and was probably going to leap sometime, start with the Condor route to get established in SAN while testing the U.S. end of the market, then switch to another unserved route, MAN, when LH did announce, whether in 2018 or 2019 or... And I think that MAN and LHR are different enough markets that MT and BA could easily and profitably co-exist.

It's interesting to think about anyway. We just wait now and see how it all plays out. (I guess there is some question as to whether MT will have enough 330s next year to do all they wish.)

Last year the rumors about MT coming to SAN in 2017 started, I think, last fall so I would be surprised if we hear anything firm sooner than 3 or 4 months from now.

bb

MAH4546 wrote:

Not surprisingly, Condor has pulled SANFRA from the GDS for next summer.

Lufthansa scared them off!

Considering all the international expansion flights..what I've seen in this thread is that the expansion would only include 3 widebody gates, 3 narrowbody. Isn't that a bit too small? Or how would that work, if SAN continues to receive more flights. Is there room to adjust the gates? In a recent conversation with one of the airport planning managers, I received photos where it shows that it is capable of 5 widebody, but in a previous image on this thread I only saw the 3 as stated above. ( Same from this link www.lajollalight.com/news/sd-airport-ex ... story.html )

Anyways, Im glad SAN is getting more flights. I personally would love to see Korean Air, as we have a huge population of Koreans in San Diego and it would be nice to bring in a major SkyTeam Intl Carrier. Granted Tijuana is most likely going to get China, I think we'll be good with KE, especially with the recent joint venture. What do you guys think of Air France in San Diego?

However, I think Norweigian is what I've been hearing as well that may be coming soon. I do foresee Thomas Cook replacing Condor.

Im curious, does anyone know if the flight crews switch off and stay in San Diego for all those international flights? I know most of the intl airlines only have a 2 hour switcharound time. Like JAL, BA, Edelweiss (twice weekly) etc.