Yes, I know I should have posted on ´site related´, but at least wanted to reach a wider audience, before the Mods will surely move this thread to that forum.
Whist I only joined a few years ago, I had been lurcking since the very start of this Website in the old Johan days.
Now when I look at ´Civil Aviation´ , I often have 80-90% US topics. A lot has changed on A.Net over the past couple of years, some good, some bad, but it is still my favourite Platform. However the US Topics are boaring me as a ´global free Agent´ , working in the aviation industry. Carrier XY starting a new (US Domestic) Route, is Delta dropping this, is UA starting that.... filling the forum. No disrespect at all to my US friends, but this is a global platform!

Is it not time for the Mods to think about adding a ´US Forum´ , where my good friends in the US have a platform to indulge in all these topics, giving the rest of the global audience/members opportunity to discuss global civil aviation?

Any thoughts?

Yes it is IMHO

Definitely

Create your own website if you are so triggered by it. Airliners.net is based in the US with mainly US posters, of course most topics are going to relate to the US.

Yes, it's very US centric. Was looking at the new BA destinationt thread earlier- I'd say 75% of the replies were mentioning the same 3 US cities when there are countless other route possiblities, and it ended up being the Seychelles.
I would love to see more discussion about air travel in China, such a huge market with little fanfare.

Super80Fan wrote:

Create your own website if you are so triggered by it. Airliners.net is based in the US with mainly US posters, of course most topics are going to relate to the US.

Guess you are not aware of the history this site......and it´s intended purpose when it was first started!

It is, but the content exists because that's what people create, not what they consume. It's just a fact of life that many posters are from the US so much of the discussion surrounds the US... the content here is not curated

Get ready.... Of course it is. It's an English speaking site, and the USA has a vast population of those native speakers.

kimimm19 wrote:

Get ready.... Of course it is. It's an English speaking site, and the USA has a vast population of those native speakers.

No Problem with that, so let´s give them their very own forum, it´s so easy......look at how PPrune deals with this....

Why am I capable f skipping posts I'm nt interested in reading?

Well the founder is from Sweden, but a huge majority of his audience was in fact, from North America. I'd think a "US" forum and a "rest of the world" would further segregate things, and not sure it would result in more lively discussions, but actually the opposite. The OAG thread update, for example, is done by a North American and focuses on the US carriers since thats what he mines. I'm assuming if he mined other countries he wouldn't have time to do the entire report.

Are you calling for a "Brexit" of A.net?

Start some non-U.S. threads and then there will be more discussion of non-U.S. aviation. It's all user-generated content. Get generating.

Yes.

What you have to keep in mind is that creating a new sub-forum wouldn't result in more non-US content. It would simply move most of the activity to a sub-forum and leave the "rest of world" forum very short on content

*User deleted* point is just not worth making.

Super80Fan wrote:

Create your own website if you are so triggered by it. Airliners.net is based in the US with mainly US posters, of course most topics are going to relate to the US.

Actually it's based in Canada now

No such thing as anything being "too" US centric. It's just how this forum is. Many/most people are from the US, many/most people speak English...if the market demands a forum that is less US centric then there would be one.

Do Europeans complain about everything?

The USA makes up about 40% of departures per day globally. It should be no surprise that it makes up a large percentage of the content as well. Other large markets like China are engineered and controlled by a regulator, so there isn't much to discuss.

Varsity1 wrote:

Do Europeans complain about everything?

The USA makes up about 40% of departures per day globally. It should be no surprise that it makes up a large percentage of the content as well. Other large markets like China are engineered and controlled by a regulator, so there isn't much to discuss.

You said it much more eloquently that I would have. Thank you.

Yes
Technically speaking it's possible to satisfy everybody : some boards with subforums give the choice to display on the main page all the messages from all subforums or selected subforums only.

I think more topics should remain displayed on page 1 (maybe 75 topics). Reduce the space between each topic, or only use one row for each topic cell. This helps (I'm telling that by experience)

qf789 wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

Create your own website if you are so triggered by it. Airliners.net is based in the US with mainly US posters, of course most topics are going to relate to the US.

Actually it's based in Canada now

Ah, good to note, thanks!

Varsity1 wrote:

Do Europeans complain about everything?

The USA makes up about 40% of departures per day globally. It should be no surprise that it makes up a large percentage of the content as well. Other large markets like China are engineered and controlled by a regulator, so there isn't much to discuss.

I also believe "too US centric" is not just about the topic titles...

This has to be the dumbest post I've seen since my days of lurking started in 2005.

If you're from somewhere else outside the US, then post something. Simple as that. Instead of reading or commenting on someone else's, make your own post.

cougar15 wrote:

Yes, I know I should have posted on ´site related´, but at least wanted to reach a wider audience, before the Mods will surely move this thread to that forum.

I'm sorry but that's just rude. If I was a moderator, I would have just deleted this thread for being in the wrong forum and asked you to post it again properly. The mods don't get everything right, but they try their best, and I don't think it is fair to deliberately create extra work for them because you think your site-related topic is somehow more important than everyone else's. If you're really concerned that there's an important Site Related issue which people aren't noticing, why not do what I did and throw a link to the Site Related thread in question in your signature.

As for the question, yes there's definitely quite a lot of discussion about the US here. As someone from outside the US, I feel I've learnt a lot about Aviation there as a result. I'd love to see more posts about aviation in the Pacific Islands, so I started a thread earlier this year. It's on its third page now, and is starting to develop its own momentum. I'd encourage you to start some legitimate threads about things you feel we might not have given adequate attention to in the forum; I think it will give better results than posting a thread like this in a forum you know full-well it isn't supposed to be in.

V/F

MaxTrimm wrote:

Yes, it's very US centric..

Then if that is the case, Airbus has a very good fan base, right in the heart of Boeing's home - You see, any discussion can be made to relate to A and B!

cougar15 wrote:

Yes, I know I should have posted on ´site related´, but at least wanted to reach a wider audience, before the Mods will surely move this thread to that forum.
Whist I only joined a few years ago, I had been lurcking since the very start of this Website in the old Johan days.
Now when I look at ´Civil Aviation´ , I often have 80-90% US topics. A lot has changed on A.Net over the past couple of years, some good, some bad, but it is still my favourite Platform. However the US Topics are boaring me as a ´global free Agent´ , working in the aviation industry. Carrier XY starting a new (US Domestic) Route, is Delta dropping this, is UA starting that.... filling the forum. No disrespect at all to my US friends, but this is a global platform!

Is it not time for the Mods to think about adding a ´US Forum´ , where my good friends in the US have a platform to indulge in all these topics, giving the rest of the global audience/members opportunity to discuss global civil aviation?

Any thoughts?

Firstly this thread is now in site related, where is should be.

The moderators have recently discussed sub forums, amongst other things and the only sub forum will plan in adding at this stage is one for politics, to keep it separate from non aviation however we may look at a discussion to add more. Also bare in mind that it is up to Verticalscope to add sub forums or any other features to the site, we as crew members discuss with users and then amongst ourselves what changes we would like to make. Also if more sub forums were to be added don't expect to happen anytime soon as there are still other things that need to be fixed on the site and everything is done on priority needs basis.

Personally I am against a US based sub forum for many reasons. What should be addresses first is probably more state or city based threads which should reduce some if those threads you have mentioned. Looking at other country threads they can work well if executed properly. Other things to consider are time zones, currently it is night time in US and that is typically when it's more active. The other thing to consider is what happens with a topic say about a US carrier starting a service to another country, what sub forum do you suggest it goes in, it can only be in one and would likely increase work for the mods directing users from one sub forum to another

It does feel, to me, that since a.net became free, there is an increase in nationalistic posts. I feel like that the balance has shifted from people who love aviation above all, and more towards unbridled nationalism. Given that the US is the largest english-speaking population in the world, it makes sense that there is a corresponding increase in US-focused posts. There's always been the A vs B threads, but it seems worse than ever.

It is highly U.S. centered - which is surprising because that is not how the English language aviation media has always been.

As a kid in the 1980s, I was always struck by how many of my aviation related books and magazines came out of the U.K. I had as many pictures of Tridents as I had 727s it often felt like. I remember thinking that all 707s with organ pipe sound suppressors were Rolls-Royce Conway powered, and being struck when I learned that JT3C and JT4 powered birds had very similar looking nacelles (I got into airplanes right after the last turbojet aircraft left the U.S. mainline fleet). Bottom line is the British print publishing industry was absolutely fantastic on aviation in the pre-internet era, and that is where a lot of Americans got much of our print media.

As others have said, the U.S. is both gigantic in terms of ASMs and anglophone, so this impacts what happens here. But I hope it broadens out - just as I hope more airline employees eventually come back.

alyusuph wrote:

MaxTrimm wrote:

Yes, it's very US centric..

Then if that is the case, Airbus has a very good fan base, right in the heart of Boeing's home - You see, any discussion can be made to relate to A and B!

Takes me back to the early days of the forum. Every second topic used to be A vs B.

VirginFlyer wrote:

cougar15 wrote:

Yes, I know I should have posted on ´site related´, but at least wanted to reach a wider audience, before the Mods will surely move this thread to that forum.

I'm sorry but that's just rude. If I was a moderator, I would have just deleted this thread for being in the wrong forum and asked you to post it again properly. The mods don't get everything right, but they try their best, and I don't think it is fair to deliberately create extra work for them because you think your site-related topic is somehow more important than everyone else's. If you're really concerned that there's an important Site Related issue which people aren't noticing, why not do what I did and throw a link to the Site Related thread in question in your signature.

As for the question, yes there's definitely quite a lot of discussion about the US here. As someone from outside the US, I feel I've learnt a lot about Aviation there as a result. I'd love to see more posts about aviation in the Pacific Islands, so I started a thread earlier this year. It's on its third page now, and is starting to develop its own momentum. I'd encourage you to start some legitimate threads about things you feel we might not have given adequate attention to in the forum; I think it will give better results than posting a thread like this in a forum you know full-well it isn't supposed to be in.

V/F

Where is the "like button" when you need it?

77H

I miss the A v B. Seems to come up anytime a plane gets trashed.

Didn't we even have some Antonov V Tupelov threads way way back in the day?

cougar15 wrote:

kimimm19 wrote:

Get ready.... Of course it is. It's an English speaking site, and the USA has a vast population of those native speakers.

No Problem with that, so let´s give them their very own forum, it´s so easy......look at how PPrune deals with this....

Problem though, is if we create another website, there just won't be enough people to support it to become a good forum with timely contents. For any other individual English speaking country it only has 1/5 US population at most, maybe you will see only a few new topics every day and topics with zero reply hours after it's posted...If you make a 'global civil aviation excluding US' forum it should have more people but that doesn't really make sense either. Personally I feel the regional threads are already pretty good for discussions focusing on specific regions.

qf789 wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

Create your own website if you are so triggered by it. Airliners.net is based in the US with mainly US posters, of course most topics are going to relate to the US.

Actually it's based in Canada now

Yet there are so few threads about Canada...

It is to US centric these days. Thats however not something new. Its been like that for the last 7-10 years. I believe that most high quality posters (including the US ones) disappeared from here around the time the original owners sold out. During those days we had some very knowledgeable Asian and European posters who had been on the forum since its early days. Many were industry insiders and them together with some old school spotters made the forum excellent.
It meant that we often had a very good idea of what was happening before anything was decided.

Most of these posters are now on regional forums, having lost interest in A.net due to what was some extreme childishness. Regional forums are today what A.net was 10 years ago. Thats where informed posters gather and where the discussion is one based on knowledge. To me its sad that we lost close to 90% of our Asian posters. That most Europeans lost interest. That the Indian community stopped posting etc. Not sure I would blame it on the US posters though, more the general lack of tone and debate.

Not sure how many of you that remembers a certain Asian poster who at the time had a very high position in a bluechip Asian carrier. He, when pointing out what this particular carrier was doing and where it saw its future, got a handful from posters that disagreed with him virtually telling him he knew nothing and they knew much better. His information to share corporate strategy and industry trends was rather limited after that. And I don't blame him, being challenged and questioned by people that have no clue of the context, the airline and the industry is perhaps not the way Id spend my free time.

I think that there was a "new" generation of posters who believed that by having absolute opinions and by making universalist claims they would "win" a debate. Most knowledgeable posters had little interest in that and instead opted to take their knowledge elsewhere. Being challenged by a 20 year old newbie is ok when its done on factual grounds, however arguing over established facts isn't and just leads to irrelevance.
The exchange of information gave way to a forum where opinions where not respected and instead debates based on emotions took over which led to factual posters seeking refuge elsewhere giving way for a new group of posters who enjoyed a different kind of forum.

MillwallSean wrote:

It is to US centric these days. Thats however not something new. Its been like that for the last 7-10 years. I believe that most high quality posters (including the US ones) disappeared from here around the time the original owners sold out. During those days we had some very knowledgeable Asian and European posters who had been on the forum since its early days. Many were industry insiders and them together with some old school spotters made the forum excellent.
It meant that we often had a very good idea of what was happening before anything was decided.

Most of these posters are now on regional forums, having lost interest in A.net due to what was some extreme childishness. Regional forums are today what A.net was 10 years ago. Thats where informed posters gather and where the discussion is one based on knowledge. To me its sad that we lost close to 90% of our Asian posters. That most Europeans lost interest. That the Indian community stopped posting etc. Not sure I would blame it on the US posters though, more the general lack of tone and debate.

Not sure how many of you that remembers a certain Asian poster who at the time had a very high position in a bluechip Asian carrier. He, when pointing out what this particular carrier was doing and where it saw its future, got a handful from posters that disagreed with him virtually telling him he knew nothing and they knew much better. His information to share corporate strategy and industry trends was rather limited after that. And I don't blame him, being challenged and questioned by people that have no clue of the context, the airline and the industry is perhaps not the way Id spend my free time.

I think that there was a "new" generation of posters who believed that by having absolute opinions and by making universalist claims they would "win" a debate. Most knowledgeable posters had little interest in that and instead opted to take their knowledge elsewhere. Being challenged by a 20 year old newbie is ok when its done on factual grounds, however arguing over established facts isn't and just leads to irrelevance.
The exchange of information gave way to a forum where opinions where not respected and instead debates based on emotions took over which led to factual posters seeking refuge elsewhere giving way for a new group of posters who enjoyed a different kind of forum.

Very well put. Yes most of the knowledgeable posters are long gone. The new generation (Millenials) are in general different.
Earlier there used to be a Respect Rating which is now gone. even though it may not have been the cleanest rating it gave clear indication on who had correct knowledge. Maybe A.net shd start a verification service like twitter that verifies some posters based on their (confidential) background check. THat will take the forums to the next level.

MillwallSean wrote:

It is to US centric these days. Thats however not something new. Its been like that for the last 7-10 years. I believe that most high quality posters (including the US ones) disappeared from here around the time the original owners sold out.

If you mean when Johan left, I can think of many good posters who stayed on - and a few awful posters who stayed as well.

Beyond that, I don't find the site all that different from when I joined sixteen years ago. There are posters I miss, but there are some new posters who have come up to take their place.

There are posters who I wish would stop posting, but I either ignore them or explain a few facts about a.net to them.

The site is what we make it - "we" being an amorphous group of people united by one crazy thing - a love of civil aviation. I'm never going to like all those people, or agree with them, but I look back on the great Airbus/A380 wars, for example, with some affection, even though some posters drove me crazy at the time. They were brutal, but they were fun.

I've been a member here for sixteen years and I'm sure I drive some people crazy - or did, at various times, maybe I still do - but I use a.net for my purposes, for the things that interest me. If something doesn't interest m,e, I don't bother with it. If people want to be childish - and I agree there are a few here - I don't bother them, either.

But among some of the new chums, I'm discovering that there are some bright sparks among them, whose minds I enjoy.

mariner

Here's my case in point: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1373781

So much US protectionism. So many posters who feel that Boeing is in the right, no matter what. Blind patriotism to the degree that they sound like they'd be happy to see Bombardier fail. It boggles my mind that they don't seem the least bit interested in the CSeries as an aircraft. BBD is no real threat to Boeing, and I think everyone knows it. Personally, I welcome any new plane into the skies, for the sake of variety, if nothing else. I think it's bloody fantastic when I'm in Mexico City and I can watch an SSJ-100 fly past.

Mariner, I want to tautoko everything you say, and especially this:

mariner wrote:

Beyond that, I don't find the site all that different from when I joined sixteen years ago. There are posters I miss, but there are some new posters who have come up to take their place.

I keep hearing people talking about the forum quality changing since such-and-such an event, but to be honest in my 17 years here it has been fairly constant. I think it is much more likely that as people become more active here, their knowledge grows, and they begin to notice things which seem silly or pointless to them, things which they wouldn't have realised were silly and pointless when they first started participating. When I go back and look at some of my first posts (quite literally half a lifetime ago) I am amazed at some of the dopey things I said. But I learned (I hope!) and I think if we are encouraging and patient then others can also learn.

V/F

AirIndia wrote:

Maybe A.net shd start a verification service like twitter that verifies some posters based on their (confidential) background check. THat will take the forums to the next level.

Sorry, but I don't like that idea at all.

What Johan created was a genuine democracy, where - again - everyone was united by their love of planes. Johan didn't care what battles were fought, what praises were sung as long as he got to play with his magnificent toy. It should be a place for disagreement - and agreement and knowledge and learning and sometimes just aviation geeks having fun. It's how people learn.

I've learned, here on a net. Posters have been kind enough to correct when when I've been wrong and point me in the right direction.

So if such an elitist idea like "background checks" were introduced, that would likely be the end of me on a.net.

mariner

VirginFlyer wrote:

When I go back and look at some of my first posts (quite literally half a lifetime ago) I am amazed at some of the dopey things I said. But I learned (I hope!) and I think if we are encouraging and patient then others can also learn.

Exactly.

mariner

Varsity1 wrote:

Do Europeans complain about everything?

The USA makes up about 40% of departures per day globally.

It has a lot to do with nostalgia over the times when a.net was owned by Johann and everything was more relaxed, no US corporate bs, no moderator zealotry, so on and so forth.
Today's a.net is only a shadow of its former self.

I don't think the forum is to US centric. A lot of things happen in the US aviation world and it is interesting to learn about them. But I have a problem with the narrow-mindedness of some posters. Some people can not see things from another point of view. And since so many posters here are from the US their point of view is often very US centric. For some people it seems difficult to accept that certain things are done differently elsewhere. Different approaches may have advantages and disadvantages and it is often interesting to discuss these. But for some posters it seems difficult to accept that the US way of doing things is not the only way (and maybe not always the best way).
As an example the Air Berlin insolvency is mostly a German and European problem. I as a German and European take offense if someone from the US (or Japan or India or China) thinks he can tell Germany or the EU how they have to deal with it. We have our own legislation here and yes, sometimes we have different priorities. I also have my own opinion about chapter 11. But if the US chose this as one of their ways to deal with insolvencies so be it. It is just not my business to judge that.

L410Turbolet wrote:

It has a lot to do with nostalgia over the times when a.net was owned by Johann and everything was more relaxed, no US corporate bs, no moderator zealotry, so on and so forth.
Today's a.net is only a shadow of its former self.

I was a moderator here when Johan was running the show. We were regularly accused of bias, zealotry, so on and so forth. Were you to believe the complaints we got, we were simultaneously for and against Boeing, Airbus, George Bush, and Vladimir Putin. There was even a website dedicated to pillorying the Johan and the moderators. To be honest I don't see too much difference in that regard to the current situation; if anything I feel the mods are more relaxed with things now than we used to be back then.

V/F

Aither wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

Do Europeans complain about everything?

The USA makes up about 40% of departures per day globally. It should be no surprise that it makes up a large percentage of the content as well. Other large markets like China are engineered and controlled by a regulator, so there isn't much to discuss.

I also believe "too US centric" is not just about the topic titles...

Oh boy, I so agree with you! You always get those abrasive, anal replies from some (US?) users....

Indeed. Wayyyy too US centric. But what can you do... Most of the users are probably based in the US, so there you are.

The real problem is having to deal with US posters with zero international experience/exposure and a relatively closed mindset for an international forum...now that is a big (cultural) issue for me....

This is US Centric in the sense everyone can throw dirt at US3 and anything US related.

Non-US threads are kept so tidy no can else can comment without getting scrubbed. So many may not even click on those links.

AirIndia wrote:

Very well put. Yes most of the knowledgeable posters are long gone. The new generation (Millenials) are in general different.
Earlier there used to be a Respect Rating which is now gone. even though it may not have been the cleanest rating it gave clear indication on who had correct knowledge. Maybe A.net shd start a verification service like twitter that verifies some posters based on their (confidential) background check. THat will take the forums to the next level.

Forcing someone as an expert without any relevance to reality is a problem. MH370 cleared all those wrong perceptions.

RR was a scam to promote group thinking. Another tool to gang up on anyone with opposing views. Glad it is gone.

It appears hundreds of fake ids were created as soon as a.net became free.

oldannyboy wrote:

Aither wrote:

Varsity1 wrote:

Do Europeans complain about everything?

The USA makes up about 40% of departures per day globally. It should be no surprise that it makes up a large percentage of the content as well. Other large markets like China are engineered and controlled by a regulator, so there isn't much to discuss.

I also believe "too US centric" is not just about the topic titles...

Oh boy, I so agree with you! You always get those abrasive, anal replies from some (US?) users....

Again, as in my OP; no disrespect to anyone, but yes well......! Again, let´s give them a Platform, if NK starts XXX-XXX, super, but should it be on the main CivAv page? I knew it would happen, I got a Sheiksstorm, and absolutely no disrespect to the vast US users/audience was intended. Let´s move with the times, Forums haven´t been updated for years! And I would certainly pop onto a dedicated US forum page to see ´what is new´, but do we need it all over the front pages of CivAv, day in, day out.....?
And as Danny sayed, some of the topics do leave a little to be desired for a platform for GLOBAL aviation geeks........

Varsity1 wrote:

Do Europeans complain about everything?

No, but there are a number of general interest websites where US-based users just act as if everyone else is US-based as well. This is one of them.

It can be pretty annoying for "the rest of the world" and hints at a certain arrogance.

I can see OP's point, but not sure if segregating the forum would help.

I think instead of creating just a catch-all US forum within CivAv, it might be more useful to keep a CivAv general forum but create a new CivAv local topics forum where all the "airline X now flies to Y" type threads can go. This should have sub-fora for North America, Europe, South East Asia, etc. etc.

MillwallSean wrote:

I think that there was a "new" generation of posters who believed that by having absolute opinions and by making universalist claims they would "win" a debate.

To be honest, that's not a.net - that's the entire Internet. Something happened in the last couple of years and now almost universally sites where comments are allowed(*) have degenerated into ugly bar-fights. It coincides with the whole Fake News thing - so whether it's being provoked by a bunch of (state-sponsored) trolls, the influx of a new breed of user or people just allowing their previously-suppressed inner ar$eh0le loose I don't know.

In any case, it's sad and - I hope - a temporary phenomenon while society gets used to the new ways of communicating.

(*) those where topics can have even the tiniest political spin assigned to them, at any rate

VirginFlyer wrote:

I was a moderator here when Johan was running the show. We were regularly accused of bias, zealotry, so on and so forth. Were you to believe the complaints we got, we were simultaneously for and against Boeing, Airbus, George Bush, and Vladimir Putin. There was even a website dedicated to pillorying the Johan and the moderators. To be honest I don't see too much difference in that regard to the current situation; if anything I feel the mods are more relaxed with things now than we used to be back then.

Thank you. I was going to post something along those lines. I was not a mod then, but I've been here a very long time. The complaints regarding "moderator zealotry" have been around ever since Johan introduced the moderator program. Yes there were some bad eggs along the way. That absolutely happens, and none of us are perfect, but I tend to agree with you that I've noticed a much more relaxed atmosphere in the last few years. I'm not saying that because I'm a mod, I'd noticed this more relaxed attitude take shape quite a while before I joined the crew. You'll never make anyone happy. For instance, a few short years ago, every single one of the replies in this thread that has been even remotely critical of the mods would've been deleted. Now you have three separate mods participating in this thread, and the comments remain. I definitely think that's progress.

oldannyboy wrote:

The real problem is having to deal with US posters with zero international experience/exposure and a relatively closed mindset for an international forum...now that is a big (cultural) issue for me....

I don't disagree with you; they embarass me all the time. That said, I have noticed quite a few non-US posters who chime in to US threads, lecturing Americans on all that's wrong with the US when they haven't stepped foot in our country.

SomebodyInTLS wrote:

No, but there are a number of general interest websites where US-based users just act as if everyone else is US-based as well. This is one of them.

It can be pretty annoying for "the rest of the world" and hints at a certain arrogance.

I've noticed this a lot as well. Some don't know have any idea that this site was started by a Swede and was based in Sweden for the first half of its existence. But I also see a lack of appreciation for this being an international website with people participating for whom English is a second (or third or fourth) language.