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Kent350787
Posts: 1027
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 4:25 am

N757ST wrote:
The Democrats are removing all barriers to abortion including the ability to abort near or at full term. Why can’t both sides just use some common sense here? Allow abortions up to 24 weeks or so, about the time a fetus is viable.


Have you done any reading on the context of this change? There is a strong logic in the NY laws for those who are pro-choice and even some who are forced pregnancy for religious reasons can see the sense.

The Alabama laws are designed to open up Roe versus Wade. The repression of women's choice they apply has left the rest of the western world aghast.

Just out of interest, can anyone help on why, given the Netherlands has some of the most liberal abortion laws, it also has one of the lowest termaintion rates?
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 4:40 am

Magog wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Veigar wrote:
While I am on the fence with this whole pro life vs pro choice shebabble, I don't think the viability of the fetus is a good argument for pro choice. Technically a lot of things are not viable. People in comas are not viable, brain dead people are not viable, heck, if you want to push it, you sleeping means you are not viable. Should they all be killed? Of course not. But that's the issue - where do you draw the line? You can make comparisons like this all over.

That being said I do not have any standing on this actual debate.


A dead fetus in the mother will frequently get infected and cause sepsis in the mother. If it's suspected to be dead but there's no signs of infection yet and it hasn't triggered a miscarriage they'll actually wait to see if she will pass it naturally.

It's kind of like any dead organ in the body. If you leave it there, it will rot, become infected, and kill you.

I get it. That’s why nobody has ever been prosecuted for performing that procedure, nor will they be. So it was a straw man argument.


So when were you going to give me an example of ANYONE prosecuted for an abortion? It's not illegal.
 
afcjets
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 5:33 am

I haven’t read all the posts but I can’t understand why Democrats think pushing live birth abortions is smart. I think one day some of the more progressive ones will even propose a three day or perhaps even 30 day right of rescission period.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 7:22 am

Kent350787 wrote:
Just out of interest, can anyone help on why, given the Netherlands has some of the most liberal abortion laws, it also has one of the lowest termaintion rates?


Yes, with an explanation: scientific article on the matter.

Basically, it says, if you want to have a low abortion rate, you should take it seriously. Abortion is the least welcomed form of not letting a child born, so you have to facilitate all kinds of contraceptive and especially educate people.

BTW I don't know if the Netherlands has one of the most liberal abortion laws out there, I think it is in line with most EU countries.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kent350787
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 7:32 am

Dutchy wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Just out of interest, can anyone help on why, given the Netherlands has some of the most liberal abortion laws, it also has one of the lowest termaintion rates?


Yes, with an explanation: scientific article on the matter.

Basically, it says, if you want to have a low abortion rate, you should take it seriously. Abortion is the least welcomed form of not letting a child born, so you have to facilitate all kinds of contraceptive and especially educate people.

BTW I don't know if the Netherlands has one of the most liberal abortion laws out there, I think it is in line with most EU countries.


I agree that "most liberal" was possibly an overreach in my first statement, but I'm glad you responded. If you were truly against abortion, surely you'd take all reasonable steps to prevent conception? This is the overwhelming hypocrisy of those who support forced pregnancy.

Manadatory vasectomy actually makes more sense, unless the key aim is to punish women.
 
N757ST
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 9:57 am

Kent350787 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
The Democrats are removing all barriers to abortion including the ability to abort near or at full term. Why can’t both sides just use some common sense here? Allow abortions up to 24 weeks or so, about the time a fetus is viable.


Have you done any reading on the context of this change? There is a strong logic in the NY laws for those who are pro-choice and even some who are forced pregnancy for religious reasons can see the sense.

The Alabama laws are designed to open up Roe versus Wade. The repression of women's choice they apply has left the rest of the western world aghast.

Just out of interest, can anyone help on why, given the Netherlands has some of the most liberal abortion laws, it also has one of the lowest termaintion rates?


Indeed I have read the context. And while there are few of them taking place, codifying their legality has some issues. Again, I don’t agree with the Alabama laws and I am pro choice, however these new laws in NY while attempting to serve what they consider a unique scenario in my opinion can lead us down a bit of a slippery slope. Sensibly it would be nice if both sides of the aisle would attempt a limit that makes more sense, like 20-24 weeks with a medical exception after that fact. That medical exception could include a mis-developed fetus.

NY and Virginia largely are doing exactly what I state. In order for a late term abortion to be committed there has to be a medical reason. Where we differ is it seems there is a mental health exception as well, where a person can claim psychological reasoning for late term abortions. That’s a full stop. Revise that essentially the laws in NY and VA aren’t really different then the rest of the nation.
 
Magog
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 10:06 am

Jouhou wrote:
Magog wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

A dead fetus in the mother will frequently get infected and cause sepsis in the mother. If it's suspected to be dead but there's no signs of infection yet and it hasn't triggered a miscarriage they'll actually wait to see if she will pass it naturally.

It's kind of like any dead organ in the body. If you leave it there, it will rot, become infected, and kill you.

I get it. That’s why nobody has ever been prosecuted for performing that procedure, nor will they be. So it was a straw man argument.


So when were you going to give me an example of ANYONE prosecuted for an abortion? It's not illegal.

Wrong. Not all abortions are legal at all times in all states. This is why people like Kermit Baron Gosnell, A R Abarbanel, Kenneth C. Edelin and James Scott Pendergraft were prosecuted.
 
M564038
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 10:12 am

Have any of you guys involuntary stood with their 14 week fetus dead in their hands?
I have. I think the doctors, scientists and lawmakers in the most of the western world have got it pretty much nailed. It is a lump of cells in a Humanoid ET-shape up until then. I would say that is right at the transition, in to a being a growing human.
It is still isn’t capable of sustaining life, doesn’t have functioning lungs for at least another 10 weeks.

Leaving it up to the woman until that point is 100% unproblematic from an ethical standpoint.

An abortion that late, though, voluntarely or not, is a real physical ordeal for most women and should thus be avoided as much as possible using contraceptions and sexual education.

The christian-moral idiots of alabama and other places have no science to stand on, they have no moral ground, they have proven themselves incapable of running a society where everyone can thriv eand should not be anywhere near political or judicial positions of trust and power.
 
Magog
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 10:29 am

71% of Americans oppose late-term abortions. Interestingly, none of the Democrats currently running for President represent that point of view.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 12:16 pm

Magog wrote:
71% of Americans oppose late-term abortions. Interestingly, none of the Democrats currently running for President represent that point of view.


What is late-term abortions and please point to a poll which shows your 71%.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Magog
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 12:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Magog wrote:
71% of Americans oppose late-term abortions. Interestingly, none of the Democrats currently running for President represent that point of view.


What is late-term abortions and please point to a poll which shows your 71%.

Marist poll: https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 20443.html
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 1:02 pm

Magog wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Magog wrote:
71% of Americans oppose late-term abortions. Interestingly, none of the Democrats currently running for President represent that point of view.


What is late-term abortions and please point to a poll which shows your 71%.

Marist poll: https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 20443.html


The 20 weeks for a late term abortion seems about par for the course (24in the UK I believe) which seems to tie in with the viability of the fetus. I have struggled to find information about the democrat candidates representing that view. of course a lack of information does not suggest that they believe the late term abortion or any abortion is wrong we simply don't have enough information from what you have posted to determine.

From reading through the thread I will point out that based on your previous postings it would be quite likely that you were trying on insinuate that they are pro 'late-term abortion'. Outside of you posting evidence to say that they are of that opinion then I think I and any other rational person reading this thread will take that to be that you haven't heard that they believe X so that they must believe Y. Which, if that is what you are doing is simply the spreading of misinformation and I think you should be called out on it.

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Dutchy
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 1:22 pm

Magog wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Magog wrote:
71% of Americans oppose late-term abortions. Interestingly, none of the Democrats currently running for President represent that point of view.


What is late-term abortions and please point to a poll which shows your 71%.

Marist poll: https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 20443.html


Ok, late term is thus defined as after the 20th week or so. I completely agree with that, unless there is a dire medical emergency, I believe that after 20 weeks there is no reason to abort it anymore. The child is viable after 24 weeks, with a margin, 20 - 21 weeks is a fair point to have. The mother to be has had all the changes she had to think about an abortion, rethink and re-rethink about it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 1:22 pm

I find late term abortions (in my view anything past the point of viability outside of the womb) to be especially heinous. Particularly dismemberment abortions. Advances have allowed us to sustain babies with decent success rates beyond 23 weeks. A few have made it as early as ~21 weeks. The challenge I see in the future for basing abortion laws on viability is that eventually (may not happen for hundreds of years) we'll have the ability to grow a human in lab conditions, completely outside of a "womb" (in the traditional sense). Who knows what the world will hold for Humanity in such a scenario since that could lead to any number of ethical/moral/societal issues we will have to address. And it's even possible such a scenario would completely eliminate the need for traditional reproduction and humanity ceases to exist as we currently know it as.

I always try to avoid these discussions because of how emotionally charged they become. But most in this thread have been cordial. Good job. I look at my children and could never understand what would lead someone to want to terminate that. But I've never found myself in their shoes either. I'm sure it's a very traumatizing event. Or at least I assume it would be. It's why I don't really understand why some of the more extreme abortion rights activists seem to relish in the fact that they have had an abortion, or even multiple abortions. To me, it's almost psychopathic behavior to celebrate the termination of a potential life.
 
seb146
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 3:46 pm

Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Magog wrote:
You got two things wrong.
1) I am pro-choice.
2) I only cried "straw man" at the argument that a doctor could be prosecuted for removing a fetus that had died of natural causes or an act of God. That is, indeed, a straw man argument since it can't happen under the recently passed laws and has never happened under existing law.


Why are you defending the government trying to regulate women's reproductive organs?

Did you miss the part where I said that I’m pro choice? It’s up above. That said, your statement fails to recognize the moral ambiguity with abortion. I could just as easily have said, “Why are you defending the murder of innocent children?” That doesn’t get us anywhere. You can’t change the reality that there are pros and cons to both sides of the issue.


You say a lot of things you immediately contradict.

Science can get living beating human heart cells in pitri dishes. According to anti-choice types, that is a living human being.

And, no anti-choice person has given a reason as to why the government needs to be in every woman's reproductive health other than "every fetus is human!"
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 4:07 pm

seb146 wrote:
Magog wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Why are you defending the government trying to regulate women's reproductive organs?

Did you miss the part where I said that I’m pro choice? It’s up above. That said, your statement fails to recognize the moral ambiguity with abortion. I could just as easily have said, “Why are you defending the murder of innocent children?” That doesn’t get us anywhere. You can’t change the reality that there are pros and cons to both sides of the issue.


You say a lot of things you immediately contradict.

Science can get living beating human heart cells in pitri dishes. According to anti-choice types, that is a living human being.

And, no anti-choice person has given a reason as to why the government needs to be in every woman's reproductive health other than "every fetus is human!"


I already went down that road, Seb, our Magog will only say that he/she is pro-choice but decalins to tell us why? There are pro and con's to almost every issue. But Magog will not talk about the pro's and con's, at least not the reasons to come to a conclusion. So don't waste your time on this line of question, Magog will not answer.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
afcjets
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 4:57 pm

Since many on the left believe sexual orientation is 100 percent genetic and some believe there is a gay gene, assume that's true and we ultimately identify it, watch them make it illegal for a woman to abort based on homosexuality. I agree it should be illegal because I am pro life.
Last edited by afcjets on Fri May 24, 2019 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 5:01 pm

afcjets wrote:
Since many on the left believe sexual orientation is 100 percent genetic and some believe there is a gay gene, assume that's true and we ultimately identify it, watch them make it illegal for a woman to abort based on homosexuality. I agree it should be illegal because I am pro life.


Why would you add this to the argument? That is a lot of guessing and what if scenarios to draw such a conclusion from. It doesn't help anyone to ague like this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
afcjets
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 5:15 pm

Because I believe a woman's choice would take a back seat in that scenario and we have been told by the left someone is born gay. I want to either confirm I am right or have a 100 percent pro choice person who believes in gay rights to tell me a woman has every right to abort her fetus if she is told it will likely be homosexual. I think it is very helpful as it helps clarify and prioritize beliefs and it helps us understand you better.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 5:32 pm

afcjets wrote:
Because I believe a woman's choice would take a back seat in that scenario and we have been told by the left someone is born gay. I want to either confirm I am right or have a 100 percent pro choice person who believes in gay rights to tell me a woman has every right to abort her fetus if she is told it will likely be homosexual. I think it is very helpful as it helps clarify and prioritize beliefs and it helps us understand you better.

Seriously?

IT IS A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE BECAUSE IT IS HER BODY AND SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO CONTROL HER BODY.

Now are there limits? Yes, we are know there are limits and that is what almost all the arguing is about: What are those limits?

I say 20 weeks for "it's 100% your choice" and after that medical and other aspect may come into to play. However I am amenable to discuss and come to a consensus on limits that are different while still respecting a woman's right to dominion over her body.

And as I have said before, I believe a proper comprehensive solution is the best way to go: Sex education for kids, access to contraceptives allowed. Prenatal and birth support (maternity costs should be covered for hospital needs etc.), post birth care, if the baby is not desired by the parents then assistance for adoption etc. should be available.

These are just my thoughts on this, yours may be different.

Tugg
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Jouhou
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 5:51 pm

Magog wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Magog wrote:
I get it. That’s why nobody has ever been prosecuted for performing that procedure, nor will they be. So it was a straw man argument.


So when were you going to give me an example of ANYONE prosecuted for an abortion? It's not illegal.

Wrong. Not all abortions are legal at all times in all states. This is why people like Kermit Baron Gosnell, A R Abarbanel, Kenneth C. Edelin and James Scott Pendergraft were prosecuted.


Results of Google searches:

First guy was prosecuted for performing "abortions" on babies born alive. That's not an abortion. He was charged with murder because what he did is within everyone's definition of murder. He also was prosecuted for a pile of other things. Second dude Google turns up nothing on. Third dude was prosecuted for performing an abortion against the mother's will. The fourth guy turns up no credible sources, but the sources in the vein of Breitbart still say he was prosecuted on drug charges, and some other site said he lost his medical license for performing abortions out of his home.


So as far as I can tell, only one of these involved an actual abortion procedure resulting in prosecution, and it had to do with the mother's consent.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 5:53 pm

Think it's worth reminding that we aren't just talking about women's reproductive rights.

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2019/05/pro ... ender-men/
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 5:55 pm

afcjets wrote:
I haven’t read all the posts but I can’t understand why Democrats think pushing live birth abortions is smart. I think one day some of the more progressive ones will even propose a three day or perhaps even 30 day right of rescission period.


Democrats don't. Your propaganda outlets (and president) just say they do. Considering how I've made it clear what the definition of "abortion" is, how is that even possible?

Do you guys really believe that BS? I've been assuming this whole time the US population can't possibly be that gullible....

I kind of figure though it's more of some mindless drivel to get y'all worked up into a frothing rage even though you know it's not true.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 5:56 pm

afcjets wrote:
Because I believe a woman's choice would take a back seat in that scenario and we have been told by the left someone is born gay. I want to either confirm I am right or have a 100 percent pro choice person who believes in gay rights to tell me a woman has every right to abort her fetus if she is told it will likely be homosexual. I think it is very helpful as it helps clarify and prioritize beliefs and it helps us understand you better.


Ok, first and foremost, someone is born gay. Not because it has been told by the "left", because that is nature and nature is neither left or right. Don't tell me you are one of those with the absolute stupid believe that a homosexual can be "cured" from his homosexuality, now do you.

So that said, I will answer your question in a bit different way. Identifying gay-gen will be very difficult, probably a lot of different genes working together and it is a sliding scale no matter what. It is the same with intelligence, will be very hard to manipulate or asses. We, as a society, have to decide on what we want to test our fetuses when it becomes possible. It is already possible to identify some very nasty diseases and yes, the expecting parents need to decide if they want this information or not. The same can be said for more common abnormalities like down syndrome. It is up the parents to decide to have this baby not. If you could identify every problem, nobody would be born, there is not such a thing as a perfect baby or human being. Each trade, each fault, each problem has indeed its drawbacks, there is another side to this as well, some problems have some other enhanced trades: dyslexia is a problem, but people with dyslexia are more creative. So do you want to abort someone with dyslexia? Now to bring it closer to home, I have had a schisis in the jaw, people will name that at the same level as the syndrome of dawn sometimes. Now to put it plain and simple for you, yes, the ultimate decision lies with the expecting parents if they want to have that child or not. It is not for society to decide this for the parents. They can abort the fetus on any ground they choose, any they see fit. Whether it is homosexuality, a schisis or being a boy or a girl.
We might criticize the parents for it, we may have a public debate about it, but ultimately it is up to the parents.

So there you have it, a stupid Eurosocialist, liberal in every way, a believer in equal rights for everyone saying yes: if you are as backward as to have your homosexual unborn aborted because of his homosexuality then yes go ahead, just do it. And I must say, those expecting parents would probably not be the right folks to bring up such a child in the first place, so a lot of sorrow would be spared. Secondly, probably those parents whom would feel this way are some extremist Christians or Muslims or so whom wouldn't want to have an abortion anyway, so that makes your question a hypothetical one. But I decided to answer your question anyway.

Now, let me ask you a question. Why do you feel the society has the right to enforce a pregnancy on a woman? Enforce a child to be born whom isn't welcome? Forcing a child to grow up in knowing nobody wanted him to be alive?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 6:00 pm

Jouhou wrote:

Results of Google searches:

First guy was prosecuted for performing "abortions" on babies born alive. That's not an abortion. He was charged with murder because what he did is within everyone's definition of murder. He also was prosecuted for a pile of other things.


Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion on if he had performed the abortion before the baby had been born, about 10 minutes earlier while still in utero?

Should a person who is found to be criminally negligent after a car accident be charged with two manslaughter charges for the death of a pregnant person and the unborn child?

Not trolling here. Serious questions. The first is extremely important in my mind.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 6:31 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Results of Google searches:

First guy was prosecuted for performing "abortions" on babies born alive. That's not an abortion. He was charged with murder because what he did is within everyone's definition of murder. He also was prosecuted for a pile of other things.


Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion on if he had performed the abortion before the baby had been born, about 10 minutes earlier while still in utero?

Should a person who is found to be criminally negligent after a car accident be charged with two manslaughter charges for the death of a pregnant person and the unborn child?

Not trolling here. Serious questions. The first is extremely important in my mind.


If he had to pull the babies out and sever their spinal cords, it seems that A. It was pretty late in the third trimester and B. Those were healthy babies

So any of the reasons that would make the ethics of the "abortion" remotely debatable were not present at all.

I'm going to straight up say getting a third trimester abortion is absolutely not ethical a reason like "the mother is going to die" or "the baby is so deformed that their short life will be more torturous and painful than not existing at all"

I just want the option to be there for the very rare cases where there is a very good reason for it. With it technically legal, it's still performed very rarely because doctors can refuse to do it on ethical grounds of the reasons aren't solid and the risk of death to the mother is high.I

Let's break this debate out of this loop though...

Something I've never understood about the other side of the argument is how they seem to think not existing is as bad as dying. I think this might be one fundamental difference in thought. If I'm asked how I would feel if my parents aborted me, I'm just like "I wouldn't care because I wouldn't exist"
 
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casinterest
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 6:37 pm

The conservatives t have no pro-life stance, If they did , they would be pushing medical care for all. They are grandstanding on issues that don't concern them, and only seek to destroy OTHER PEOPLE's lives.

This push by Alabama is nothing but a bunch of dumb and ignorant people, that are following a bunch of idiots. They aren't going to pay for the kids future, and they aren't going to be the ones to help the mother out with bills.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
mham001
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 6:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Magog wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

What is late-term abortions and please point to a poll which shows your 71%.

Marist poll: https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 20443.html


Ok, late term is thus defined as after the 20th week or so. I completely agree with that, unless there is a dire medical emergency, I believe that after 20 weeks there is no reason to abort it anymore. The child is viable after 24 weeks, with a margin, 20 - 21 weeks is a fair point to have. The mother to be has had all the changes she had to think about an abortion, rethink and re-rethink about it.


That is a reasonable opinion, however that is not how it is today in my state and the medical profession has some reckoning.

Every baby has a chance of being deformed somehow. They rate this as a 1:xx chance of downs/whatever. When they tell my wife after some test that the chances of a deformed child rose from 1:62 to 1:57 because of her age and "wouldn't you like to have an abortion, are sure, are you sure?", this is a red flag that the the laws providing health exemptions are being abused. What are the acceptable odds?

That child has gone on to receiving national achievement awards, however if those medical professionals had their way, she wouldn't be here today. There is something wrong with that.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 6:43 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Do you guys really believe that BS? I've been assuming this whole time the US population can't possibly be that gullible....

I kind of figure though it's more of some mindless drivel to get y'all worked up into a frothing rage even though you know it's not true.


Average IQ of Americans ranks below many advanced Asian and European countries: https://brainstats.com/average-iq-by-country.html
IQ in Alabama is the 6th last on the US list: https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/we-c ... ening.html
Last edited by Dieuwer on Fri May 24, 2019 6:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 6:46 pm

mham001 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Magog wrote:


Ok, late term is thus defined as after the 20th week or so. I completely agree with that, unless there is a dire medical emergency, I believe that after 20 weeks there is no reason to abort it anymore. The child is viable after 24 weeks, with a margin, 20 - 21 weeks is a fair point to have. The mother to be has had all the changes she had to think about an abortion, rethink and re-rethink about it.


That is a reasonable opinion, however that is not how it is today in my state and the medical profession has some reckoning.

Every baby has a chance of being deformed somehow. They rate this as a 1:xx chance of downs/whatever. When they tell my wife after some test that the chances of a deformed child rose from 1:62 to 1:57 because of her age and "wouldn't you like to have an abortion, are sure, are you sure?", this is a red flag that the the laws providing health exemptions are being abused. What are the acceptable odds?

That child has gone on to receiving national achievement awards, however if those medical professionals had their way, she wouldn't be here today. There is something wrong with that.


Not sure what you are saying, but within medicine, you will always have gray areas. Ultimately it is up to the professional behavior of the attending physician to observe the law while practician medicine.
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Dutchy
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 6:47 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Do you guys really believe that BS? I've been assuming this whole time the US population can't possibly be that gullible....

I kind of figure though it's more of some mindless drivel to get y'all worked up into a frothing rage even though you know it's not true.


Average IQ of Americans ranks below many advanced Asian and European countries.

https://brainstats.com/average-iq-by-country.html

I am sure the list will put Alabama well below the US average.


Com'on no need for this. Otherwise, I need to explain the concept of average to you and you know what I am talking about :lol:
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mham001
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 7:11 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Do you guys really believe that BS? I've been assuming this whole time the US population can't possibly be that gullible....

I kind of figure though it's more of some mindless drivel to get y'all worked up into a frothing rage even though you know it's not true.


Average IQ of Americans ranks below many advanced Asian and European countries: https://brainstats.com/average-iq-by-country.html
IQ in Alabama is the 6th last on the US list: https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/we-c ... ening.html


"These results are controversial and have caused much debate, they must be interpreted with extreme caution."

Somehow, I don't see any of that caution expressed in your post. In fact, tied for 9 and against some countries known for gaming these surveys is not to be ashamed of. What is your point?
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 9:04 pm

Tugger wrote:
IT IS A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE BECAUSE IT IS HER BODY AND SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO CONTROL HER BODY.

Now are there limits? Yes, we are know there are limits and that is what almost all the arguing is about: What are those limits?

I say 20 weeks for "it's 100% your choice" and after that medical and other aspect may come into to play. However I am amenable to discuss and come to a consensus on limits that are different while still respecting a woman's right to dominion over her body.


I'm in agreement. Having said that, you say 20 weeks now, but as medical science advances and the timeline for viability goes earlier - because let's face it, survivability at 20-24 weeks was unheard of decades ago - that cutoff limit will move earlier and earlier, and pro-choice advocates know time is not on their side on this one. It's also medical science that has shaped public opinion regarding what's "acceptable" for abortions, as hearts and minds change when you can actually SEE a heart beating and not just think of a "clump of cells."

Once again though, this all will change the moment SCOTUS issues an opinion on when "life begins." Because once they establish that, there's no going beyond it.
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scbriml
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 9:14 pm

DL717 wrote:
Given the staggering number of abortions in the last 50 years, one has to wonder how many Einstein’s were aborted. Consider those consequences.


Given mankind has produced but a single Einstein, those abortions were very unlikely to have robbed us of much. Far more likely to have saved us from a few serial killers and mass murderers.

Consider those consequences.
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MaverickM11
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 10:02 pm

mham001 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
It’s a totally bogus statistic, just so we are crystal clear


Not nearly as much as you'd like the world to believe when you look at graduation rates, particularly the large disparity in minority graduations, you know, the types who actually took the tests? But i didn't know your opinion of accuracy was the basis of post deletion. Interesting.

Uh no. It’s not an opinion when you compare SAT scores of a state that has 60% participation—several states are at 100%—with one that has 5%. Or maybe you got your education in Alabama? And that’s before considering Alabama is much smaller with a tiny fraction of the number of languages, immigrants, and other obstacles that California has.
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MaverickM11
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 10:10 pm

afcjets wrote:
I haven’t read all the posts but I can’t understand why Democrats think pushing live birth abortions is smart. I think one day some of the more progressive ones will even propose a three day or perhaps even 30 day right of rescission period.

I know y’all are just flat out making sh!t up now like reimplanting ectopic pregnancies or “born alive” abortion bills, but what Ben Carson fever dream did you get live birth abortion from?
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seb146
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 10:16 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Think it's worth reminding that we aren't just talking about women's reproductive rights.

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2019/05/pro ... ender-men/


No need to stress. Republicans are working hard to limit equality for LGBTQ people.
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seb146
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Fri May 24, 2019 10:21 pm

All these posts from right wingers flat out lying about full term abortions is not really surprising. Grasping at straws. Where are all of these unwanted babies going? All these babies with severe defects? All those families who lose the mother and child?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sat May 25, 2019 6:20 am

seb146 wrote:
All these posts from right wingers flat out lying about full term abortions is not really surprising. Grasping at straws.


So forget full-term; those others that would now be allowed at, say, 30 weeks, and they're quite literally ripping the body apart - those are fine by you?
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Kent350787
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sat May 25, 2019 6:58 am

EA CO AS wrote:
seb146 wrote:
All these posts from right wingers flat out lying about full term abortions is not really surprising. Grasping at straws.


So forget full-term; those others that would now be allowed at, say, 30 weeks, and they're quite literally ripping the body apart - those are fine by you?


How often do these occur and for what reasons? I personally can't comprehend how a woman in her rigth mind could carry a viable foetus to that stage and then terminate. If you can find an example, please let me know.

Nice use of emotive language btw.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sat May 25, 2019 8:53 am

Kent350787 wrote:
How often do these occur and for what reasons?


Can we agree that even once is too many? Look up “partial birth abortion” - you’ll have trouble forgetting what you saw.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sat May 25, 2019 9:11 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
How often do these occur and for what reasons?


Can we agree that even once is too many? Look up “partial birth abortion” - you’ll have trouble forgetting what you saw.


Is someone advocating here late-term (21 weeks +) abortions, other than medical necessities?
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Magog
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sat May 25, 2019 10:40 am

Dutchy wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
How often do these occur and for what reasons?


Can we agree that even once is too many? Look up “partial birth abortion” - you’ll have trouble forgetting what you saw.


Is someone advocating here late-term (21 weeks +) abortions, other than medical necessities?

I think the issue is that many prominent Democrats are, including Presidential candidates. It’s definitely a change f on what my party used to say.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sat May 25, 2019 11:03 am

Magog wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

Can we agree that even once is too many? Look up “partial birth abortion” - you’ll have trouble forgetting what you saw.


Is someone advocating here late-term (21 weeks +) abortions, other than medical necessities?

I think the issue is that many prominent Democrats are, including Presidential candidates. It’s definitely a change f on what my party used to say.


Could you give us examples please, not asking for your opinion, or arguments, just to link us to prominent Democrats, including presidential candidates.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sat May 25, 2019 1:55 pm

Usually very late abortions involve fetal development failures which are only detected late, say only partial or no brain development, internal organ re-arrangement which cannot be surgically repaired.
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Magog
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sat May 25, 2019 1:58 pm

I would have no problem if the Democrat candidates limited their support for late term abortion to those instances. But so far not a single one has specifically said that.
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sat May 25, 2019 2:02 pm

Image
 
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Tugger
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sat May 25, 2019 4:57 pm

Magog wrote:
I would have no problem if the Democrat candidates limited their support for late term abortion to those instances. But so far not a single one has specifically said that.

Actually there are several that have stated that.

And there are VERY few done "late" as in after 24 weeks. and those that are done are done for valid medical reason.
(And yes, there will of course be an exception somewhere to this, you cannot stop all bad actors. Just as while owning guns is fine, someone somewhere will buy one with the express intent to kill someone which in not legal. But simply put you cannot prevent all illegal activity by passing laws.)

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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flipdewaf
Posts: 2707
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sat May 25, 2019 5:06 pm

Magog wrote:
I would have no problem if the Democrat candidates limited their support for late term abortion to those instances. But so far not a single one has specifically said that.

What a pile of excrement! I’m sure that none of them has specifically said they don’t want to pluck every hair off the head of all ginger people and feed it to cows but that doesn’t mean that that’s what they want to do.

I assume it’s all the drugs you take.

Fred


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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Anti-abortion wave across America

Sat May 25, 2019 7:18 pm

The anti-abortion (and anti-post birth life) contingent have deliberately pursued a boa constrictor strategy. Every and any step on abortion control and contraceptives is simply the first step back to the control of women by a bunch of angry old white men.
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