• 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 8
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

EU elections

Tue May 07, 2019 10:21 pm

There are upcoming EU elections, 23rd - 26th of May. Of course every country has its issue's and, at least in The Netherlands, issue's which have nothing to do with the EU will probably reign supreme. Probably parties will try to win over votes, so you have a debate between the VVD and D'66, while they both are part of the same coalition in the EU parliament, Liberals. So it is a kind of puppetry.
I think it is a shame. We need to talk about EU and the way we want to move forward.

There is one party which truly wants to do it differently: Volt. The first pan-European party within the current framework of the EU elections of course. Here is a promotional video.

What do you guys think about the EU elections?

BTW we know of the Brexiteers that they will moan and will vote the Brexit party, so I find their opinion less interesting, because they will be gone anyway.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Maloak33
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:47 pm

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 3:01 am

Today "08 May 2019" is South Africa's national election day.

Mal
Of all the things I’ve lost, I miss my mind the most.
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6542
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 7:04 am

I really don't think pushing for a more integrated Europe is a runner at the moment. People aren't really engaged in European elections -- certainly nothing like national elections -- and they often use them as a protest vote or to punish their current government. I'll probably be using it as a protest vote myself, which isn't good.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14043
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 8:22 am

I would suspect there will be a gain in the number of seats for right of center parties taking stands against refugees from the Islamic world entering the EU as well as high taxes, wanting to cut the costs and amount of EU bureaucracy, against bailouts of the poorer southern member countries and excessive influence of Germany.
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6138
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 5:19 pm

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 8:30 am

The European election campaigns were kicked off over the weekend up here - and promptly overshadowed yesterday by the PM calling for a general election 10 days after the EP election. So I'd imagine most of the time from now on will be focused on purely domestic issues.

Which is a shame, because as much as I'm very much pro-EU, there are issues that needs to be dealt with. I work in the transport industry, and year on year I see more and more drivers from mainly Eastern European countries, working for Danish companies but either operating as independent contractors or through a subsidary established in those countries, allowing them to be underpaid in the extreme compared to Danish salaries. That came to a head earlier this year, when a Danish transport company was found to have employed Phillipino truck drivers for as little as $1000 per month, where the collective agreements in Denmark usually guarantees a salary of at least $5000 per month.

On top of that, it's estimated that for every Danish coach driver there's 5 drivers from EU countries operating in Copenhagen, with foreign coach operators having captured as much as 75% of the market. I can't imagine that many of them are operating under Danish rules on salaries.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 10:51 am

Braybuddy wrote:
I really don't think pushing for a more integrated Europe is a runner at the moment. People aren't really engaged in European elections -- certainly nothing like national elections -- and they often use them as a protest vote or to punish their current government. I'll probably be using it as a protest vote myself, which isn't good.


My I ask in which country you are going to vote and for which party you are going to vote for. I find it interesting you want to cast a protest vote, why is this? Which signals do you want to sent and to whom?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 10:55 am

CPH-R wrote:
The European election campaigns were kicked off over the weekend up here - and promptly overshadowed yesterday by the PM calling for a general election 10 days after the EP election. So I'd imagine most of the time from now on will be focused on purely domestic issues.


Yeah, you have the same in the Netherlands. People deciding on local issue's, not on EU issue's. That kind of makes the EU elections a kind of glorified referendum on the national government.

For anyone who is interested, there are European wide election debates, like the one in Maastricht the other day. Debate registration here.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Redd
Posts: 862
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 11:52 am

ltbewr wrote:
I would suspect there will be a gain in the number of seats for right of center parties taking stands against refugees from the Islamic world entering the EU as well as high taxes, wanting to cut the costs and amount of EU bureaucracy, against bailouts of the poorer southern member countries and excessive influence of Germany.


That's a bit of a toss up. The right of centre wave has slowed down if not even stopped. They might not be losing support, but they're not gaining any in Europe. Will be an interesting election to see if it starts to swing left again.
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6542
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 1:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
My I ask in which country you are going to vote and for which party you are going to vote for. I find it interesting you want to cast a protest vote, why is this? Which signals do you want to sent and to whom?

I live and vote in Ireland, and will be giving my No 1 vote to the (tiny) extreme right party, and No 2 to one of the far left parties (that will have the tallymen scratching their heads!), and nobody after that. I'm voting for the extreme right (I've always voted centre up to now) as they are the only party to have a policy on immigration and migration. I've always been a supporter of sensible and controlled immigration, but what's been happening in the EU in the last four years has been madness. So I'm sending a signal to the EU by voting far right, and the government by voting far left (there's too much of a cosy consensus in the governing parties ever since our bailout in 2010).
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 3:06 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
My I ask in which country you are going to vote and for which party you are going to vote for. I find it interesting you want to cast a protest vote, why is this? Which signals do you want to sent and to whom?

I live and vote in Ireland, and will be giving my No 1 vote to the (tiny) extreme right party, and No 2 to one of the far left parties (that will have the tallymen scratching their heads!), and nobody after that. I'm voting for the extreme right (I've always voted centre up to now) as they are the only party to have a policy on immigration and migration. I've always been a supporter of sensible and controlled immigration, but what's been happening in the EU in the last four years has been madness. So I'm sending a signal to the EU by voting far right, and the government by voting far left (there's too much of a cosy consensus in the governing parties ever since our bailout in 2010).


Alright, thanks for the honest answer. I don't think it will solve anything, though. The EU needs to find an answer to a number of problems and immigration is one such problem, refugees and migration both, I agree on that. This is one of the subjects the EU could be of tremendous value. Problem is that, of course, the EU doesn't have any legal power in regards of immigration and refugees, just helping southern nations to protect the borders. So in fact you would be in favor of turning the immigration and refugee policies over to the EU.

Again I appreciate your answering and I can see where you are coming from.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 3:21 pm

Redd wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
I would suspect there will be a gain in the number of seats for right of center parties taking stands against refugees from the Islamic world entering the EU as well as high taxes, wanting to cut the costs and amount of EU bureaucracy, against bailouts of the poorer southern member countries and excessive influence of Germany.


That's a bit of a toss up. The right of centre wave has slowed down if not even stopped. They might not be losing support, but they're not gaining any in Europe. Will be an interesting election to see if it starts to swing left again.


I would also say a populist wave. There are, of course, some right to extreme right leaning parties against immigration towards out right hostile towards our citizens descending from northern African nations and Turkey. In my view, these parties will not solve anything and it will make it harder to form an effective government to combat these problems.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 3:53 pm

Dutchy wrote:

BTW we know of the Brexiteers that they will moan and will vote the Brexit party, so I find their opinion less interesting, because they will be gone anyway.


The opinions of Eurosceptics are as valid as anyones.

And yes I will vote for the Brexit party.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 4:03 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

BTW we know of the Brexiteers that they will moan and will vote the Brexit party, so I find their opinion less interesting, because they will be gone anyway.


The opinions of Eurosceptics are as valid as anyones.

And yes I will vote for the Brexit party.


I said, I find it less interesting, even totally uninteresting, because the Brexiteers only want something negative and no progress. That said, it says nothing about the validly of the vote or the opinion itself. The Brexiteers have a hole thread of their own to moan about Brexit.

I was watching the presentation of his Brexit party and I will give Farage the following: break the two party system, that is keeping current politicians in a deadlock. So something positive about Nigel Farage.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
chimborazo
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:51 pm

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 6:11 pm

Dutchy, for a lot of people leaving the EU IS progress. It is a dying monolith. Had it been genuinely open to reforming and actually dealing with its issues, less people would have voted for Brexit.
It amazes me that so many left wingers celebrate things like the Arab spring, emancipation, democracy.... but when it comes to Brexit and that version of democracy suddenly that democratic answer is wrong because of this and that.

I hope whatever involvement UK MEPs have if they do end up taking their seats it goes some way to developing strategies to turn around the massive unemployment in many European states. That is one of the biggest drivers of so-called populism.

FOr disclosure, I voted to leave the EU but am ambivalent about it. All I wanted was a permit system for workers instead of the racist policy of everyone in the EU good and bad are free to wander into my country as they please, but many, many good people outside the EU are barred from entry. I have direct experience of this some years back when my Kiwi girlfriend’s five year work permit was rescinded after 18 months because her job went off the needed list. Unfair and racist.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 6:24 pm

chimborazo wrote:
Dutchy, for a lot of people leaving the EU IS progress. It is a dying monolith. Had it been genuinely open to reforming and actually dealing with its issues, less people would have voted for Brexit.
It amazes me that so many left wingers celebrate things like the Arab spring, emancipation, democracy.... but when it comes to Brexit and that version of democracy suddenly that democratic answer is wrong because of this and that.

I hope whatever involvement UK MEPs have if they do end up taking their seats it goes some way to developing strategies to turn around the massive unemployment in many European states. That is one of the biggest drivers of so-called populism.

FOr disclosure, I voted to leave the EU but am ambivalent about it. All I wanted was a permit system for workers instead of the racist policy of everyone in the EU good and bad are free to wander into my country as they please, but many, many good people outside the EU are barred from entry. I have direct experience of this some years back when my Kiwi girlfriend’s five year work permit was rescinded after 18 months because her job went off the needed list. Unfair and racist.


Chim, there are serious problems that are calling for a solution. You mention one, but there are loads of others. These genuine problems needs to be solved. Leaving the EU, certainly crashing out with a no-deal Brexit, will solve nothing and instead will create great hardship, especially for those whom are the most vulnerable.

I don't know if you have been following the Brexit thread or not. I have and have participated in it and have been following Brexit quite closely in the news. I find it grotesque that some dwellers from the London City with their Eton - Cambridge / Oxford education has managed to lie to the country and got away with it. It actually makes me angry to think about it. There are no good reasons to have a Brexit, none, sorry. All reasons fail spectaculair because they all lead to a situation far worse than what they try to solve in the first place.

The EU needs to change, certainly and let's work together towards that goal, not walking away and hope for unicorns to come.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
chimborazo
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:51 pm

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 6:42 pm

Appreciate your answer. Yes there is a good reason.... the population of my country is growing way faster than infrastructure and services are or even can be updated to cope. I wouldn’t mind if my considerable percentage tax bill was spent on coping with it... but it isn’t.


I agree on the politicians... again: I hear lots about tackling the problems of crime and lack of inclusion at source when it comes to youth crime. And yet we have the so-called leaders of my country just lying to us everyday, disregarding the will of the public. We lose more and more faith in politicians.

I don’t read the Brexit thread because it’s getting tiresome. Sorry to hijack this one.

Got my pre-polling card today. Don’t know who I will vote for TBH... will likely spoil my paper. I ALWAYS vote, or at least mess the paper. I have a strong view that if one doesn’t engage in the voting process then that person should not comment on political matters because they withdrew themselves from a chance to change things. (I see the irony in spoiling my ballot but it gets recorded as such: I am part of the democratic process). I actually think voting or at least registering none of the above should be mandatory. But, like introducing a driving test every five or ten years (which is a logical and necessary thing to do to improve driving standards), it would be political suicide to implement that. No one has got the balls to do the right thing. I want someone to stand up and lead my country and say: I don’t care about being re-elected. I’m going to do the right thing (on so many subjects....).
 
chimborazo
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:51 pm

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 6:50 pm

Further, your comment is along the lines of David Cameron’s famous: we are better inside reforming. See how that worked out for him :-)

I and most of my compatriots have very little in common with many people in Europe... I genuinely don’t understand why so many people think it’s such a good thing to have 550million person super-state across so many cultures.

The populist parties will do well because, like council elections “ they don’t really count” and it’s a great way to have a pop at the incumbents without really changing anything. And that’s fundamental to the EU... nothing really changes for the good. It’s all about ever closer integration and a lot of people are getting more and more wary of that.

It is okay to be proud of and want to put ones own nation first.
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6542
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 7:12 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
So in fact you would be in favor of turning the immigration and refugee policies over to the EU.

Isn't that what we have at the moment?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 7:18 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
So in fact you would be in favor of turning the immigration and refugee policies over to the EU.

Isn't that what we have at the moment?


Officially, no. Look at Hungary, they have chosen not to participate and the EU can't make them. So it is all voluntary, like with most things in the EU.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dieuwer
Posts: 1160
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 7:30 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Isn't that what we have at the moment?


Officially, no. Look at Hungary, they have chosen not to participate and the EU can't make them. So it is all voluntary, like with most things in the EU.


...which is the main problem with the EU.
First of all, it takes ages to come to any sort of compromise. And when a compromise finally has been reached, certain countries just ignore it and do whatever they like.
Just imagine that States in the USA start doing whatever they like and ignore federal law. It would be chaos. Or just imagine the 50 governors of the 50 states travel to Washington DC to hammer out compromises ever other day. Totally unworkable, utter chaos!
So, there needs to be some sort of enforcement. Just as Kennedy send the National Guard to Alabama to enforce civil rights, so must the EU deal with recalcitrant member states. I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. EITHER you have common policies with ENFORCEMENT, or you don't. And if you don't you might as well go back to simply being a trading block. The EU version of NAFTA.
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6542
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 7:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Officially, no. Look at Hungary, they have chosen not to participate and the EU can't make them. So it is all voluntary, like with most things in the EU.

But they are going against EU policy, and risk either being fined or having their funding cut. With Schengen (though I don't know where that stands now) no country (apart from UK and Ireland) really had any choice in who they let in until the eastern European states started erecting fences, which is going against the whole principle of Schengen.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 7:39 pm

chimborazo wrote:
Appreciate your answer. Yes there is a good reason.... the population of my country is growing way faster than infrastructure and services are or even can be updated to cope. I wouldn’t mind if my considerable percentage tax bill was spent on coping with it... but it isn’t.


I agree on the politicians... again: I hear lots about tackling the problems of crime and lack of inclusion at source when it comes to youth crime. And yet we have the so-called leaders of my country just lying to us everyday, disregarding the will of the public. We lose more and more faith in politicians.

I don’t read the Brexit thread because it’s getting tiresome. Sorry to hijack this one.

Got my pre-polling card today. Don’t know who I will vote for TBH... will likely spoil my paper. I ALWAYS vote, or at least mess the paper. I have a strong view that if one doesn’t engage in the voting process then that person should not comment on political matters because they withdrew themselves from a chance to change things. (I see the irony in spoiling my ballot but it gets recorded as such: I am part of the democratic process). I actually think voting or at least registering none of the above should be mandatory. But, like introducing a driving test every five or ten years (which is a logical and necessary thing to do to improve driving standards), it would be political suicide to implement that. No one has got the balls to do the right thing. I want someone to stand up and lead my country and say: I don’t care about being re-elected. I’m going to do the right thing (on so many subjects....).


Sadly it is not a particularly democratic vote in these EU elections. You can chose the party you vote for, but not the individual.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 7:59 pm

chimborazo wrote:
Further, your comment is along the lines of David Cameron’s famous: we are better inside reforming. See how that worked out for him :-)

I and most of my compatriots have very little in common with many people in Europe... I genuinely don’t understand why so many people think it’s such a good thing to have 550million person super-state across so many cultures.

The populist parties will do well because, like council elections “ they don’t really count” and it’s a great way to have a pop at the incumbents without really changing anything. And that’s fundamental to the EU... nothing really changes for the good. It’s all about ever closer integration and a lot of people are getting more and more wary of that.


I am a passionate believer in the European Union. I believe it is beneficial for all people on our continent to have a permanent structure to discuss and solve our common problems and plot policies to better our selves.
But more fundamental: I believe the EU is instrumental for having a peaceful continent for the first time in thousands of years. Peace in Europe isn't the normal state of being. The founding fathers of the EU - union for coal and steel - were the ones whom, just a few years before, experienced the worst of human kind and they were the ones whom said: never again and we owe it them, to our grandparents, our great grandparents, but more importantly to our children and ourselves to make sure we will never turn this continent again into a killing field.
I think it is great that we work together to solve the problems of our time: environment and pollution. I think it is great that we work together to make our continent more prosperous: free trade, funds to help with infrastructure. I think it is great that we work together to guarantee the citizens rights: workers rights, basic human rights and guarantee of safety standards. And there are things which seem logical to work together: energy, medicine admittance, aviation etc.

In general I think regulation should be as close to the citizens as possible, so only move a government layer (is this English?) up, if it is necessary.

Now this said, I think the EU should reform things to benefit not just the urban highly educated classes - many on this forum I suspect - but everyone. The lower classes are the ones whom feel pressure from low income countries, so make sure that everyone whom is doing a job in a country gets paid the same and make sure that that is enough to live on. Migration has a lot of benefits, but also some drawbacks, so we need to take those into account and see how we could solve those. On the other hand, these people have created a lot of wealth in Western Europe. We need to restructure the agricultural policies of the EU. This money is far better spend on innovation to help our citizens instead of a few inefficient farmers. And we have the Euro, this isn't all smooth sailing from here. And so there are a few other problems needs solving.

chimborazo wrote:
It is okay to be proud of and want to put ones own nation first.


Certainly, why wouldn't it? Culture is something which is made by a group. I don't believe that this will decline anytime soon. If you look at the Netherlands, the north is totally different than the south. The big cities are totally different than the small cities or the rural areas. Quite diverse lot. And I must say I probably have more in common with someone living in Dublin, Berlin or Madrid than I have with someone living in Tytsjerksteradiel (no offence). And yet, I feel Dutch, but at the same time: Utrechter and European.
The EU will not be the force that will make you feel less connected to your group, I don't believe it for one bit. It might add a layer to your identity: we do have common value's within the EU and these common value's needs to be protected, hence the EU.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 8:09 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Officially, no. Look at Hungary, they have chosen not to participate and the EU can't make them. So it is all voluntary, like with most things in the EU.

But they are going against EU policy, and risk either being fined or having their funding cut. With Schengen (though I don't know where that stands now) no country (apart from UK and Ireland) really had any choice in who they let in until the eastern European states started erecting fences, which is going against the whole principle of Schengen.


Hungary goes against EU policy which they agreed up on themselves. It is not an outside force that forces these rules on them, no they actively participate. I have not heard anything that they will be fined for not taking refugees etc. They are going against some fundamental values of the EU: freedom of press, freedom of party, freedom of the rule of law, democracy itself etc. (Poland too), they are at risk to face some consequences there, but probably not because a ll countries have to agree, which they don't. Actually these countries are a shining example of the powerless of the EU, they do not have suprime power over these nations as demonstrated in these cases. The sovereignty argument fails too. Within Shengen there is the Dublin protocol, which states a refugee should ask for asylum in the first country it enters into. So I don't know what the Shengen treaty has got to do with it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6542
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 9:39 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I have not heard anything that they will be fined for not taking refugees etc.

Unless I'm missing something, fines and penalties have been proposed, whether they have been implemented is another matter:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42270239

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... e-refugees

Dutchy wrote:
So I don't know what the Shengen treaty has got to do with it.

The whole migration crisis has been one unholy mess. Has the EU been able to regulate any of it, let alone the Dublin agreement? As regards Schengen, I was referring to the ability of migrants being able to move freely within the bloc, though that seems to be changing now..
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Wed May 08, 2019 9:51 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I have not heard anything that they will be fined for not taking refugees etc.

Unless I'm missing something, fines and penalties have been proposed, whether they have been implemented is another matter:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42270239

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... e-refugees



Yes, they were proposed, but as far as I know, never implemented. There are many things proposed within the EU, but will only come into effect after is has been accepted. At the moment, there aren't many refugees coming to the EU, so the problem isn't urgent.

Dutchy wrote:
So I don't know what the Shengen treaty has got to do with it.

The whole migration crisis has been one unholy mess. Has the EU been able to regulate any of it, let alone the Dublin agreement? As regards Schengen, I was referring to the ability of migrants being able to move freely within the bloc, though that seems to be changing now..[/quote]

Refugees must apply for an asylum in the first country they enter within the Schengen zone, meaning Italia or Greece or Austria in most cases. So if a refugee is picked up or applies for a refugee status in Germany, the question arrises, how did he get there? If over land, he needs to return to the country where he came from. It was in the Dutch news that this actually did take place between the Netherlands and Germany. Illegal immigrants aren't legal within the Schengen zone so they shouldn't be here in the first place. What to do about it? You mean controlling the landborders? That would be quite impractical, even in the days before Schengen, just too many crossings, too fast the area to control. I can't remember when I was asked to present my passport within continental Europe, even before Schengen, except at the airport of course. Within the Schengen agreement there are rules with which you could instigate border controls again for a short while, I remember Austria and Denmark or Sweden doing this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11358
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 12:02 am

Dieuwer wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
Isn't that what we have at the moment?


Officially, no. Look at Hungary, they have chosen not to participate and the EU can't make them. So it is all voluntary, like with most things in the EU.


...which is the main problem with the EU.
First of all, it takes ages to come to any sort of compromise. And when a compromise finally has been reached, certain countries just ignore it and do whatever they like.
Just imagine that States in the USA start doing whatever they like and ignore federal law. It would be chaos. Or just imagine the 50 governors of the 50 states travel to Washington DC to hammer out compromises ever other day. Totally unworkable, utter chaos!
So, there needs to be some sort of enforcement. Just as Kennedy send the National Guard to Alabama to enforce civil rights, so must the EU deal with recalcitrant member states. I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. EITHER you have common policies with ENFORCEMENT, or you don't. And if you don't you might as well go back to simply being a trading block. The EU version of NAFTA.


Without going the national guard route, what often happens in the US is that federal funds are put in the balance.

The EU could already do that, cut all funding to Hungary, but that has not happened.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11358
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 12:08 am

As for the EU elections, I think EU wide parties should be encouraged, maybe even made mandatory ?

It's really annoying how parties only send politicians who have failed at the national stage to these elections, or young unknowns. Watching a debate between candidates is like watching cripples fight.

Aside from a couple of pro-EU candidates, we only hear about anti-EU rhetoric (but half of them don't want to exit it, so they argue with those who do want an exit), or how everything must change. In fact even pro-EU candidates that very well know change can only be slow and needs an EU wide consensus talk about making changes that have very little chance to happen.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
anrec80
Posts: 1733
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 2:07 am

chimborazo wrote:
I hope whatever involvement UK MEPs have if they do end up taking their seats it goes some way to developing strategies to turn around the massive unemployment in many European states. That is one of the biggest drivers of so-called populism.

For disclosure, I voted to leave the EU but am ambivalent about it. All I wanted was a permit system for workers instead of the racist policy of everyone in the EU good and bad are free to wander into my country as they please, but many, many good people outside the EU are barred from entry. I have direct experience of this some years back when my Kiwi girlfriend’s five year work permit was rescinded after 18 months because her job went off the needed list. Unfair and racist.


These are the exact reasons why I would have voted for a euro-skeptic party had I been a European, and certainly for Brexit had I been a Brit. The EU had taken away from its member nations too many of their fundamental rights. In this case - Cim is talking about the basic right of every nation to have a border, and control who enters the country, for how long, what will they be doing here, etc. EU's ideology has replaced all that with some yet another "freedom".

Dieuwer wrote:
So, there needs to be some sort of enforcement. Just as Kennedy send the National Guard to Alabama to enforce civil rights, so must the EU deal with recalcitrant member states. I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. EITHER you have common policies with ENFORCEMENT, or you don't. And if you don't you might as well go back to simply being a trading block. The EU version of NAFTA.


The EU is not the USA. In EU, already too many people believe that they are being told from outside how to live, who should be let into their country, how much taxes they need to pay and how to spend them. And - told by someone they never elected and voted for. If you start enforcing - first, how to enforce? Second - there will be an exit lineup if you start pressing too much. Though I personally think European NAFTA is about the right common ground. This whole EU can be replaced by a set of agreements (such as Schengen, free labor movement, etc.) that are voluntary to participate in, and provide some flexibility to nations in how to implement them.
Last edited by anrec80 on Thu May 09, 2019 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1733
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 2:29 am

Dutchy wrote:
Chim, there are serious problems that are calling for a solution. You mention one, but there are loads of others. These genuine problems needs to be solved. Leaving the EU, certainly crashing out with a no-deal Brexit, will solve nothing and instead will create great hardship, especially for those whom are the most vulnerable.

See Dutchy - this is also where the root of these "euro-skepticism" issues is. Do EU citizens see that Brussels leadership understands their woes and problems? Does Brussels offer any solutions to them? Not much at all - just standard mantra calls to "solidarity" and "consensus". And they are tired of that. Hence euro-skeptics gain ground - it's easy for them to make people believe that they are offering solutions, even though it's arguable whether they are right or wrong.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1733
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 2:44 am

Dutchy wrote:
Illegal immigrants aren't legal within the Schengen zone so they shouldn't be here in the first place. What to do about it? You mean controlling the landborders? That would be quite impractical, even in the days before Schengen, just too many crossings, too fast the area to control. I can't remember when I was asked to present my passport within continental Europe, even before Schengen, except at the airport of course. Within the Schengen agreement there are rules with which you could instigate border controls again for a short while, I remember Austria and Denmark or Sweden doing this.


What's up with border control? I think in European reality it became a necessity again. Good news though - we are living in 21st century, and modern technologies can establish the identity of the person in a quarter of a second (e.g. shape of a head, iris image). Border crossings can be made efficient by introducing frequent traveler programs - when, say, a Dutch citizen applies for a simplified crossing permit into Germany and France. Each of those countries gets to conduct the background check on this person, interview them and scan their biometric information. Then, when they go to Germany, boarding a Germany-bound train for them is really like tapping a payment card when entering the subway. You can achieve that vast majority of crossings will be happening on such programs.

It's similar to NEXUS here between USA and Canada. And it works - crossing takes 30 seconds, there is never a line to the machine. I never talk to a border official. I have one of those, and I do not feel that my freedom is impeded somehow. Quite the opposite - I get to use pre-check lanes at the airport for simpler security. And yet secure - in each of these countries (USA and Canada), there is someone to screen who is entering the country, and turn back an individual with questionable intents. Yes, a bit of inconvenience - I have to go to a border crossing for an interview upon each renewal (every 5 years).
Last edited by anrec80 on Thu May 09, 2019 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1733
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 2:58 am

Dutchy wrote:
Hungary goes against EU policy which they agreed up on themselves. It is not an outside force that forces these rules on them, no they actively participate. I have not heard anything that they will be fined for not taking refugees etc. They are going against some fundamental values of the EU: freedom of press, freedom of party, freedom of the rule of law, democracy itself etc. (Poland too), they are at risk to face some consequences there, but probably not because a ll countries have to agree, which they don't. Actually these countries are a shining example of the powerless of the EU, they do not have suprime power over these nations as demonstrated in these cases.


See Dutchy, these "freedom" and "democracy" things are too open for too many interpretations. Each individual sees them through the prism of their upbringing, their life experience, the history of their nation - too many to mention. You see them one way. A Hungarian may see them differently - he would believe that Orban's government is doing its job in protecting their nation against potentially damaging foreign meddling. A Polish citizen believes that it's up Polish state how to organize Polish judicial system, and it's not European business. And what are you gonna do? Invoking any meaningful enforcement tools will just likely trigger the infamous "F..k the EU" a few more times, and generate enough distrust that will take decades to overcome.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 5:49 am

anrec80 wrote:
See Dutchy, these "freedom" and "democracy" things are too open for too many interpretations. Each individual sees them through the prism of their upbringing, their life experience, the history of their nation - too many to mention. You see them one way. A Hungarian may see them differently - he would believe that Orban's government is doing its job in protecting their nation against potentially damaging foreign meddling. A Polish citizen believes that it's up Polish state how to organize Polish judicial system, and it's not European business. And what are you gonna do? Invoking any meaningful enforcement tools will just likely trigger the infamous "F..k the EU" a few more times, and generate enough distrust that will take decades to overcome.


I understand you are saying this and all the other things here, you are a well known Russian / Putin supporter or some might even say a Russian troll. So you are no fan of fundamental freedoms, no fan of truly independent rule of law, no fan of a free press etc.

And you are a big fan of strong man politics.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 5:53 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Illegal immigrants aren't legal within the Schengen zone so they shouldn't be here in the first place. What to do about it? You mean controlling the landborders? That would be quite impractical, even in the days before Schengen, just too many crossings, too fast the area to control. I can't remember when I was asked to present my passport within continental Europe, even before Schengen, except at the airport of course. Within the Schengen agreement there are rules with which you could instigate border controls again for a short while, I remember Austria and Denmark or Sweden doing this.


What's up with border control? I think in European reality it became a necessity again. Good news though - we are living in 21st century, and modern technologies can establish the identity of the person in a quarter of a second (e.g. shape of a head, iris image). Border crossings can be made efficient by introducing frequent traveler programs - when, say, a Dutch citizen applies for a simplified crossing permit into Germany and France. Each of those countries gets to conduct the background check on this person, interview them and scan their biometric information. Then, when they go to Germany, boarding a Germany-bound train for them is really like tapping a payment card when entering the subway. You can achieve that vast majority of crossings will be happening on such programs.

It's similar to NEXUS here between USA and Canada. And it works - crossing takes 30 seconds, there is never a line to the machine. I never talk to a border official. I have one of those, and I do not feel that my freedom is impeded somehow. Quite the opposite - I get to use pre-check lanes at the airport for simpler security. And yet secure - in each of these countries (USA and Canada), there is someone to screen who is entering the country, and turn back an individual with questionable intents. Yes, a bit of inconvenience - I have to go to a border crossing for an interview upon each renewal (every 5 years).


This is a joke right? Most bordercrossings in Europe are by car or public transportation. If you drive to Belgium, I don't notice, other than the quality of the roads, the border at all. I drive 120km/h in the Netherlands, I drive 120km/h in Belgium. If I have to stop and do this pass thing, it will take move than a quarter of a second, so this will lead to massive lines at the border. I want open borders within the Schengen zone.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
Posts: 1733
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 7:22 am

Dutchy wrote:
I understand you are saying this and all the other things here, you are a well known Russian / Putin supporter or some might even say a Russian troll. So you are no fan of fundamental freedoms, no fan of truly independent rule of law, no fan of a free press etc.

As I said - things like “freedom of press” and “fundamental freedoms” are to be interpreted by each individual. I know you believe Russians do not have these freedoms, but if you ask most of them - majority will say that freedoms situation is Russia is totally fine. And I believe that their opinion about their degree of freedom should take the priority, obviously.


Dutchy wrote:
And you are a big fan of strong man politics.


I am a big fan of institutions that grow, prepare and move to the top competent and strong leaders.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1733
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 7:30 am

Dutchy wrote:
This is a joke right? Most bordercrossings in Europe are by car or public transportation. If you drive to Belgium, I don't notice, other than the quality of the roads, the border at all. I drive 120km/h in the Netherlands, I drive 120km/h in Belgium. If I have to stop and do this pass thing, it will take move than a quarter of a second, so this will lead to massive lines at the border. I want open borders within the Schengen zone.


“I want open borders”, “I drive 120 kmh in Belgium” - this is a very interesting position, I’ll tell you what. Have you forgot by accident that Belgium is another country at all? Did you ask Belgians if they want you there? What if they don’t? This is their fundamental right - to decide whether to let you in or not let you in, and you are saying it’s OK to strip a nation off their right that fundamental just because you do not want to stop and do the pass thing? Some people would take an offense to such position with regards to their country, you know. Yeah, you guys took this eurointegrartion thing too far.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 7:37 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I understand you are saying this and all the other things here, you are a well known Russian / Putin supporter or some might even say a Russian troll. So you are no fan of fundamental freedoms, no fan of truly independent rule of law, no fan of a free press etc.

As I said - things like “freedom of press” and “fundamental freedoms” are to be interpreted by each individual. I know you believe Russians do not have these freedoms, but if you ask most of them - majority will say that freedoms situation is Russia is totally fine. And I believe that their opinion about their degree of freedom should take the priority, obviously.


Dutchy wrote:
And you are a big fan of strong man politics.


I am a big fan of institutions that grow, prepare and move to the top competent and strong leaders.


Oh that's convenient, everything is fluent, no absolutes.

Russia has weak institutions and has a very strong leader: an autocrat.

The EU has strong institutions and power is dispersed between several powers and thus will always move more slowly than with in autocrat, but the power lies with the people, not with a group of oligarchs.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 7:46 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
This is a joke right? Most bordercrossings in Europe are by car or public transportation. If you drive to Belgium, I don't notice, other than the quality of the roads, the border at all. I drive 120km/h in the Netherlands, I drive 120km/h in Belgium. If I have to stop and do this pass thing, it will take move than a quarter of a second, so this will lead to massive lines at the border. I want open borders within the Schengen zone.


“I want open borders”, “I drive 120 kmh in Belgium” - this is a very interesting position, I’ll tell you what. Have you forgot by accident that Belgium is another country at all? Did you ask Belgians if they want you there? What if they don’t? This is their fundamental right - to decide whether to let you in or not let you in, and you are saying it’s OK to strip a nation off their right that fundamental just because you do not want to stop and do the pass thing? Some people would take an offense to such position with regards to their country, you know. Yeah, you guys took this eurointegrartion thing too far.


Gee, yup I have asked and they want me there.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
Posts: 3164
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 9:14 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Hungary goes against EU policy which they agreed up on themselves. It is not an outside force that forces these rules on them, no they actively participate. I have not heard anything that they will be fined for not taking refugees etc. They are going against some fundamental values of the EU: freedom of press, freedom of party, freedom of the rule of law, democracy itself etc. (Poland too), they are at risk to face some consequences there, but probably not because a ll countries have to agree, which they don't. Actually these countries are a shining example of the powerless of the EU, they do not have suprime power over these nations as demonstrated in these cases.


See Dutchy, these "freedom" and "democracy" things are too open for too many interpretations. Each individual sees them through the prism of their upbringing, their life experience, the history of their nation - too many to mention. You see them one way. A Hungarian may see them differently - he would believe that Orban's government is doing its job in protecting their nation against potentially damaging foreign meddling. A Polish citizen believes that it's up Polish state how to organize Polish judicial system, and it's not European business. And what are you gonna do? Invoking any meaningful enforcement tools will just likely trigger the infamous "F..k the EU" a few more times, and generate enough distrust that will take decades to overcome.


And Poland and Hungary are more than welcome to get out of the EU just like Britain did if they feel the upsides don't compensate for the downsides.

Until then if you sign up to follow some rules, you have to.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 9:17 am

JJJ wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Hungary goes against EU policy which they agreed up on themselves. It is not an outside force that forces these rules on them, no they actively participate. I have not heard anything that they will be fined for not taking refugees etc. They are going against some fundamental values of the EU: freedom of press, freedom of party, freedom of the rule of law, democracy itself etc. (Poland too), they are at risk to face some consequences there, but probably not because a ll countries have to agree, which they don't. Actually these countries are a shining example of the powerless of the EU, they do not have suprime power over these nations as demonstrated in these cases.


See Dutchy, these "freedom" and "democracy" things are too open for too many interpretations. Each individual sees them through the prism of their upbringing, their life experience, the history of their nation - too many to mention. You see them one way. A Hungarian may see them differently - he would believe that Orban's government is doing its job in protecting their nation against potentially damaging foreign meddling. A Polish citizen believes that it's up Polish state how to organize Polish judicial system, and it's not European business. And what are you gonna do? Invoking any meaningful enforcement tools will just likely trigger the infamous "F..k the EU" a few more times, and generate enough distrust that will take decades to overcome.


And Poland and Hungary are more than welcome to get out of the EU just like Britain did if they feel the upsides don't compensate for the downsides.

Until then if you sign up to follow some rules, you have to.


:checkmark: correct and the majority of the people don't want to leave.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6029
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 10:32 am

Braybuddy wrote:
With Schengen (though I don't know where that stands now) no country (apart from UK and Ireland) really had any choice in who they let in until the eastern European states started erecting fences, which is going against the whole principle of Schengen.

We obviously need a refresh on the very basics how the Schengen works, or should work.
Hungary had been erecting fences on its borders with non-EU countries, that is doing its homework - protecting EU's OUTER borders. Something countries like Greece or Italy should do as well, but for various reasons do not.
This is infact the very essence of Schengen, if there is to be free movement INSIDE the Schengen Area, there has to be effective protection on the OUTSIDE.
However, what IS totally against the spirit of Schengen is the re-introduction of border checks on the inner borders of Schengen countries as implemented by Austria, Denmark, France, Germany, Norway and Sweden.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11358
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 10:38 am

I almost got a ticket last time I went to Belgium because the speed limit changed while driving on the highway and I didn't notice. Then I noticed the signs in Flemish only...

I wasn't actually going to Belgium, only sleeping in a hotel there, my job was back in France but there was some event causing all hotels to be expensive, so over the border was cheaper.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
anrec80
Posts: 1733
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 2:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Gee, yup I have asked and they want me there.


Idk what I have left to say on this. Had I been a Belgian - I would have felt totally disrespected and offended, together with my country. Someone who isn’t Belgian citizen - insists they have an absolute right to crash by at any time at any speed they like and not even bother to register at entry? This is just not what works, obviously. Entering some other country is a privilege, not a right.

And then you’re wondering where euro-skepticism comes from. Even if I had been a Schengen supporter, this stance would have been shattered in my mind due to this attitude. I think vast majority of Americans or Canadians would have felt this way as well. You could have at least kept this attitude to yourself.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6029
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 3:53 pm

JJJ wrote:
Until then if you sign up to follow some rules, you have to.

Does that include the Maastricht Treaty?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 5:41 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Gee, yup I have asked and they want me there.


Idk what I have left to say on this. Had I been a Belgian - I would have felt totally disrespected and offended, together with my country. Someone who isn’t Belgian citizen - insists they have an absolute right to crash by at any time at any speed they like and not even bother to register at entry? This is just not what works, obviously. Entering some other country is a privilege, not a right.

And then you’re wondering where euro-skepticism comes from. Even if I had been a Schengen supporter, this stance would have been shattered in my mind due to this attitude. I think vast majority of Americans or Canadians would have felt this way as well. You could have at least kept this attitude to yourself.


You are certainly not an EU citizen, so what is your point. You are, as you claim yourself in numinous of Russian related threads where you are a passionated defender of everything Putin does - I am not saying you are a Russian troll -, a Canadian born, living in the US. So you have the right to live in another country, sure you have asked, but still kind of strange to blader about this.
What you fail to understand is that within the EU everything is reciprocal, so the Belgian government has given me the right to enter whenever I please and the Dutch government has given the right to a Belgium to enter whenever he pleases. Of course we need to obey the rules of the specific country, which I do. I have no problem with that at all and I think it is an open and welcome attitude.

Hey, I take offence in your attitude towards freedom and fundamental rights (Putin is the best right) while enjoying the same freedoms in the US, so I take your remarks with a grain of salt.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 5:44 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Until then if you sign up to follow some rules, you have to.

Does that include the Maastricht Treaty?


Ok, I'll bite. Every treaty which countries have signed up to. So yes, this includes the Maastricht Treaty. So now you can tell us what is so bad about the Maastricht Treaty or that some countries aren't following it or some nonsense like that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 6:28 pm

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Gee, yup I have asked and they want me there.


Idk what I have left to say on this. Had I been a Belgian - I would have felt totally disrespected and offended, together with my country. Someone who isn’t Belgian citizen - insists they have an absolute right to crash by at any time at any speed they like and not even bother to register at entry? This is just not what works, obviously. Entering some other country is a privilege, not a right.

And then you’re wondering where euro-skepticism comes from. Even if I had been a Schengen supporter, this stance would have been shattered in my mind due to this attitude. I think vast majority of Americans or Canadians would have felt this way as well. You could have at least kept this attitude to yourself.


You are certainly not an EU citizen, so what is your point. You are, as you claim yourself in numinous of Russian related threads where you are a passionated defender of everything Putin does - I am not saying you are a Russian troll -, a Canadian born, living in the US. So you have the right to live in another country, sure you have asked, but still kind of strange to blader about this.
What you fail to understand is that within the EU everything is reciprocal, so the Belgian government has given me the right to enter whenever I please and the Dutch government has given the right to a Belgium to enter whenever he pleases. Of course we need to obey the rules of the specific country, which I do. I have no problem with that at all and I think it is an open and welcome attitude.

Hey, I take offence in your attitude towards freedom and fundamental rights (Putin is the best right) while enjoying the same freedoms in the US, so I take your remarks with a grain of salt.



I am totally opposed to EU freedom of movement. My primary aim of voting Brexit.

Why should Dutch, German, French and Czech Nationals be given a right to freely move to the UK, whilst our closest Allies (Americans) cannot. The same with Commonwealth nations.

Why is it ok for Europeans to freely move around and live in Europe, but not Africans and Asians.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 8:15 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
whilst our closest Allies (Americans) cannot. The same with Commonwealth nations.


America isn't your closest Ally and neither is any of the Commonwealth Nations. But ok, if that is your mindset.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
Posts: 3164
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 8:15 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

Idk what I have left to say on this. Had I been a Belgian - I would have felt totally disrespected and offended, together with my country. Someone who isn’t Belgian citizen - insists they have an absolute right to crash by at any time at any speed they like and not even bother to register at entry? This is just not what works, obviously. Entering some other country is a privilege, not a right.

And then you’re wondering where euro-skepticism comes from. Even if I had been a Schengen supporter, this stance would have been shattered in my mind due to this attitude. I think vast majority of Americans or Canadians would have felt this way as well. You could have at least kept this attitude to yourself.


You are certainly not an EU citizen, so what is your point. You are, as you claim yourself in numinous of Russian related threads where you are a passionated defender of everything Putin does - I am not saying you are a Russian troll -, a Canadian born, living in the US. So you have the right to live in another country, sure you have asked, but still kind of strange to blader about this.
What you fail to understand is that within the EU everything is reciprocal, so the Belgian government has given me the right to enter whenever I please and the Dutch government has given the right to a Belgium to enter whenever he pleases. Of course we need to obey the rules of the specific country, which I do. I have no problem with that at all and I think it is an open and welcome attitude.

Hey, I take offence in your attitude towards freedom and fundamental rights (Putin is the best right) while enjoying the same freedoms in the US, so I take your remarks with a grain of salt.



I am totally opposed to EU freedom of movement. My primary aim of voting Brexit.

Why should Dutch, German, French and Czech Nationals be given a right to freely move to the UK, whilst our closest Allies (Americans) cannot. The same with Commonwealth nations.

Why is it ok for Europeans to freely move around and live in Europe, but not Africans and Asians.


Because you have free movement of goods, capital, services and people with them.

There are some very good economic reasons on why all four have to come together in the long run. There's very interesting research on that front.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: EU elections

Thu May 09, 2019 8:17 pm

JJJ wrote:
Because you have free movement of goods, capital, services and people with them.

There are some very good economic reasons on why all four have to come together in the long run. There's very interesting research on that front.



He doesn't care about facts, he is a Brexitremist.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 8

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Spar and 35 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos