Why do people still believe in God?

trpmb6 · Tue May 07, 2019 12:27 pm

flipdewaf wrote:

What evidence is there to suggest:
A. That we are naturally selfish
B. That said selfishness is a bad thing
C. That the aforementioned 'bad selfishness' can be reduced through preaching
D. That any of that requires congregating for a sky daddy.

Fred

The Chimps and Bonobos can give a glimpse into this somewhat. There are theories spun off suggesting we have certain tendencies hardwired in a similar way. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/libr ... 73_03.html

flipdewaf · Tue May 07, 2019 12:45 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

What evidence is there to suggest:
A. That we are naturally selfish
B. That said selfishness is a bad thing
C. That the aforementioned 'bad selfishness' can be reduced through preaching
D. That any of that requires congregating for a sky daddy.

Fred

The Chimps and Bonobos can give a glimpse into this somewhat. There are theories spun off suggesting we have certain tendencies hardwired in a similar way. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/libr ... 73_03.html

Thanks! that was a nice little article, seems to read that the selfishness of a society can be both good or bad for it and likely the society will drive towards its most optimal scenario dependent of circumstances. Evolutionary Biology at its finest in an easy bite size read.

Fred

trpmb6 · Tue May 07, 2019 1:05 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

What evidence is there to suggest:
A. That we are naturally selfish
B. That said selfishness is a bad thing
C. That the aforementioned 'bad selfishness' can be reduced through preaching
D. That any of that requires congregating for a sky daddy.

Fred

The Chimps and Bonobos can give a glimpse into this somewhat. There are theories spun off suggesting we have certain tendencies hardwired in a similar way. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/libr ... 73_03.html

Thanks! that was a nice little article, seems to read that the selfishness of a society can be both good or bad for it and likely the society will drive towards its most optimal scenario dependent of circumstances. Evolutionary Biology at its finest in an easy bite size read.

Fred

Fred, there are additional, more scholarly discussions on the topic, that was the first I could find without digging deeper into some of the research that I reviewed 7-8 years ago.

frmrCapCadet · Tue May 07, 2019 1:20 pm

So what are your values? What values to you expect from other people? What values are legitimate for government to impose on you or other people? If you think religion has problems, I will suggest that values and their imposition on other people have all or most of the same problems.

einsteinboricua · Tue May 07, 2019 2:19 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Because many religions preach a moderating message with regard to man's selfish desires.

You really don't believe that, do you? I mean, if it works for you, all the power to you.

Were the Crusades a message of moderation? What about leaders who somehow live lavish lifestyles while their followers pour money believing something like that will happen? There are very few leaders who lead a humble life and try to be the example of a moderating experience to selfish needs. Even the regular Sunday churchgoers go to church and very few believe it's to better themselves personally. The thing they all desire: wealth.

SteelChair · Tue May 07, 2019 2:29 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Because many religions preach a moderating message with regard to man's selfish desires.

You really don't believe that, do you? I mean, if it works for you, all the power to you.

Were the Crusades a message of moderation? What about leaders who somehow live lavish lifestyles while their followers pour money believing something like that will happen? There are very few leaders who lead a humble life and try to be the example of a moderating experience to selfish needs. Even the regular Sunday churchgoers go to church and very few believe it's to better themselves personally. The thing they all desire: wealth.

I absolutely believe it.

You list examples of bad behavior and infer that is the norm. I cite an example of the life man should live, and say that is the goal.

WildcatYXU · Tue May 07, 2019 3:23 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
What's wrong with believing in God?

By itself there is absolutely nothing wrong with believing in God. However, you wrote it yourself:

TWA772LR wrote:
Like Jouhou said, as long as people aren't rude or even forceful in putting their religion on others, live and let live.

That would be the ideal situation. However, in real life people are rude and forceful in putting their religion on others. There are many countries in the world where the laws are influenced by religion. There are many believers that hate those who don't believe in God or those who believe in a different God. And there are some who are willing to kill because of that. That is a big problem on my books.

flipdewaf · Tue May 07, 2019 3:26 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
So what are your values?

freedom of speech and of thought. Freedom to criticize. Ideas to stand on their own merits, fair and reasonable justice, fun. On the whole life is preferable to death and comfort is preferable to pain. Truth.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
What values to you expect from other people?

freedom of speech and of thought. Freedom to criticize. Ideas to stand on their own merits, fair and reasonable justice, fun. On the whole life is preferable to death and comfort is preferable to pain. Truth.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
What values are legitimate for government to impose on you or other people?

It is a governments job to uphold the values of the citizens in a fair and balanced way and to maintain freedoms until such times that the society deems them inappropriate. The government should not determine the values themselves but define boundaries where the values and freedoms apply.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
If you think religion has problems, I will suggest that values and their imposition on other people have all or most of the same problems.

I don't disagree, but because something else is also an issue it doesn't mean that religion is not or that it is not an enabler for these problems.

Fred

frmrCapCadet · Tue May 07, 2019 4:02 pm

I am fairly up to date on the study of religion and evolution, as well as what cognitive science is saying. Add in evolution and morality. Then crank in humans really to not behave or vote rationally. If you define religion as the deep values of a culture, your and my likely shared values are under serious attack. Whether it is the religion of Aryan-ism, nationalism, or commonly 'my kind of people' versus 'your kind of people' the quasi-religious beliefs of the enlightenment and liberal democracy are losing grounds. Those attacking are co-opting whatever religion they have or more often the religion of their supporters. And formal religions are painfully open to being co-opted. I don't have problems with Moses and the prophets, the Buddha, Jesus, even Mohammed, but the co-opted religion of their followers can be truly frightful. And they may be winning.

Kiwirob · Tue May 07, 2019 5:45 pm

zrs70 wrote:

My theology does not come out of new age feel good stuff. It is based on 1000’s of years of Jewish exploration.

Damn shame your theology is based on 1000’s of years of ignorance, with not a jot of tangible evidence that god exists.

SteelChair · Tue May 07, 2019 6:44 pm

Imho one should not expect evidence that God exists.

Almost by definition, religion is faith-based.

Kiwirob · Tue May 07, 2019 7:06 pm

jdstJD wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
jdstJD wrote:

Agree with this. With the things God has done in my life, no one can convince me it was all just a “coincidence”. Scientists sure have net been able to. And I do believe in science. It’s just that I believe in God too.

What has god done and what evidence do you have that makes it more likely to be god than it is to be a coincidence or indeed planned by a human or totally explainable by science?

Fred

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, in my view, the foundation of Christianity is that you believe “in God the Father almighty; the maker of Heaven and Earth; and in Jesus Christ, his only son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilot, was crucified, dead and buried. The third day he arose from the dead. He ascended into Heaven and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I am to “believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and Christ everlasting”. The whole idea of being. Christian is to believe in that without having “evidence” in the purely scientific sense. I realize to those who are skeptical, that believing in something without proof or evidence of its existence is silly, but believers believe because of what they have experienced in their lives that they BELIEVE are a direct result of God’s existence. I don’t ever try to force anyone to believe what I believe. Nor do I believe that I have to prove to anyone that God exists. I don’t follow religion just to follow a crowd and do rituals that don’t mean anything and where everyone just repeats what someone else tells you to repeat without any personal connection or understanding what they are saying. All I have to do is live my own life based on my beliefs and let everyone else live theirs they way the chose to based on what they individually believe. I recited the Lord’s Prayer above not as a blind recitation of something’s I don’t understand, but as a statement of what I BELIEVE as a Christian. I also take teachings of the Bible as illustrations of the principles God wants people to apply to their lives. I don’t take everything in the Bible literally. I know how to put things in historical context. My faith is just that: faith.

flipdewaf · Tue May 07, 2019 7:09 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Imho one should not expect evidence that God exists.

Almost by definition, religion is faith-based.

So if there is no evidence then god must have no discernible effect on the universe. So either there is no god or god is deciding not to do anything. Either way the outcome is to stop with the god stuff and be of actual use to the world.

Fred

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tugger · Tue May 07, 2019 8:15 pm

Why is religion tax exempt (in the USA)?

Tugg

trpmb6 · Tue May 07, 2019 9:36 pm

Tugger wrote:
Why is religion tax exempt (in the USA)?

Tugg

So that our hospitals don't have to pay taxes.

(I jest)

lugie · Tue May 07, 2019 9:51 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Imho one should not expect evidence that God exists.

Almost by definition, religion is faith-based.

That's fine under a system like French laicite which defines freedom of religion more as in "freedom from religion" -> no space for religion in the public sphere.

However, as soon as public policy is motivated by religion, as long as people discriminate against LGBT people because their "lord" told them being gay is a "sin", you will need to provide some evidence for that religion and the existence of that "lord".

Otherwise, basing such decisions on faith makes them about as legitimate as rounding up people wearing white tennis shoes because you "believe" that white shoes are ugly.

BN747 · Tue May 07, 2019 10:40 pm

Why do people still believe in God?

I guess it's because those (the majority) that do will stop doing so when they (if they) can pause moment...and realize one thing.

'god' Is an Earth concept. Period. Only a valid point here.

Earth, as much as it's religious like to believe, their planet speaks for the Sun, Venus, Mars, Jupiter + quintillion other worlds in this universe.

And that takes some serious balls to make that claim.

I asked a religious person a few years back this question - who depends on whom?

"Does the Earth depend on the Sun?

Or

Does the Sun depend on the Earth?

Yeah, the Sun really needs the Earth to get through the day... :shakehead:

Whereas the opposite, Earth needing the Sun - is a pure undisputed FACT!

You're more likely to remiss a inaudible fart you cracked in a 6th grade class than the Sun shedding tears over a 'missed' or Earthless Solar System.

That's nature (science) at work folks, it can't... and will not be denied.

Religion? What ever you do...DON'T bring that up to ZBlorqian if you meet one and he/she/it tells you 'Earth??? Human? No, your are a Clorpian, of this planet is known as Clorp throughout the Eastern Universe, so who is this 'god' you people worship? When and where can we meet him?"

Perspective, it's everything, especially when proven more real than dreams.

...yeah, explain that one.

BN747

bennett123 · Wed May 08, 2019 12:10 am

Einsteinboricua

What have going to Church and wealth got to do with each other?.

BN747 · Wed May 08, 2019 1:32 am

bennett123 wrote:
Einsteinboricua

What have going to Church and wealth got to do with each other?.

I think his point is, church goers chase a belief that all that matters in the end is their loyalty to their faith, which is immediately suspended til the next weekend attendance while the other 6 days of the week is spent like a hamster in a spinning wheel trying to climb capitalistic delusions of 'betterment'.(in contradiction to lessons of humility) from Learjet flying preachers.

BN747

WarRI1 · Wed May 08, 2019 2:53 am

jdstJD wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
jdstJD wrote:

Well, in my view, the foundation of Christianity is that you believe “in God the Father almighty; the maker of Heaven and Earth; and in Jesus Christ, his only son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary,
A mis-translation of the words meaning young girl in arabic text, not in fact a vrigin, but no evidence just assertions so far.
jdstJD wrote:
suffered under Pontius Pilot, was crucified, dead and buried. The third day he arose from the dead.
No evidence that he was infact dead when he was taken down from the cross and the fact that there were several people around at the time who apparently did the same thing shows that Jesus was just a run of the mill kinda guy
jdstJD wrote:
He ascended into Heaven and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
How do you know? do you have any evidence?
jdstJD wrote:
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I am to “believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and Christ everlasting”.
None of this is evidence for even Jesus existing and even if it was and Jesus did exist and did all these acts then that is not proof of god either
jdstJD wrote:
The whole idea of being. Christian is to believe in that without having “evidence” in the purely scientific sense.
Evidence in the scientific sense measn that it can have a demonstrable effect on the world, if it isnt doing that then it isn't anything. If it is having an effect then show it.
jdstJD wrote:
I realize to those who are skeptical, that believing in something without proof or evidence of its existence is silly,
Thats because it is
jdstJD wrote:
but believers believe because of what they have experienced in their lives
That's evidence! Explain your evidence and how that points toward the existence of a god
jdstJD wrote:
that they BELIEVE are a direct result of God’s existence.
If I can believe anything I want without evidence and think it to be true then there is nothing to stop two logically impossible scenarios being true which would mean that believing without evidence is not a pathway to determing truth
jdstJD wrote:
I don’t ever try to force anyone to believe what I believe. Nor do I believe that I have to prove to anyone that God exists. I don’t follow religion just to follow a crowd and do rituals that don’t mean anything and where everyone just repeats what someone else tells you to repeat without any personal connection or understanding what they are saying. All I have to do is live my own life based on my beliefs and let everyone else live theirs they way the chose to based on what they individually believe. I recited the Lord’s Prayer above not as a blind recitation of something’s I don’t understand, but as a statement of what I BELIEVE as a Christian. I also take teachings of the Bible as illustrations of the principles God wants people to apply to their lives.
Like how badly you are allowed to beat a slave?
jdstJD wrote:
I don’t take everything in the Bible literally.
How do you know which to take literally and which not?
jdstJD wrote:
I know how to put things in historical context. My faith is just that: faith.
And Brexit means Brexit. I define faith as a tool one uses to define ones beliefs when there is no evidence.

Fred

Like I said, I don’t have to provide any evidence to you to compel you to believe what I believe. You believe (or don’t believe) whatever you like.

I agree, you have the right to believe, or not believe, to accept or not to accept this as an accident or a happening, or creation.
When someone looks around and observes nature and this world we live in, I cannot accept this as all being a random accident, or that science can explain it all. Show me!

BN747 · Wed May 08, 2019 3:30 am

WarRI1 wrote:
jdstJD wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
A mis-translation of the words meaning young girl in arabic text, not in fact a vrigin, but no evidence just assertions so far. No evidence that he was infact dead when he was taken down from the cross and the fact that there were several people around at the time who apparently did the same thing shows that Jesus was just a run of the mill kinda guyHow do you know? do you have any evidence?None of this is evidence for even Jesus existing and even if it was and Jesus did exist and did all these acts then that is not proof of god either Evidence in the scientific sense measn that it can have a demonstrable effect on the world, if it isnt doing that then it isn't anything. If it is having an effect then show it.Thats because it isThat's evidence! Explain your evidence and how that points toward the existence of a godIf I can believe anything I want without evidence and think it to be true then there is nothing to stop two logically impossible scenarios being true which would mean that believing without evidence is not a pathway to determing truthLike how badly you are allowed to beat a slave?How do you know which to take literally and which not? And Brexit means Brexit. I define faith as a tool one uses to define ones beliefs when there is no evidence.

Fred

Like I said, I don’t have to provide any evidence to you to compel you to believe what I believe. You believe (or don’t believe) whatever you like.

I agree, you have the right to believe, or not believe, to accept or not to accept this as an accident or a happening, or creation.
When someone looks around and observes nature and this world we live in, I cannot accept this as all being a random accident, or that science can explain it all. Show me!

It's easy to accept 'the accident' approach when one dials DOWN their 'learned mindset' that we are that intelligent to br fooled by accidental occurrences to realize the greater, far greater intelligence exist beyond Earth-based knowledge.

Earth-based knowledge/intellect will only get humans so far in Cosmic wonders - greater 'accidents' more than likely exist than not.

The 'accident' suggest you are the lucky lottery winner, everyone else...not so lucky.

I'm sure the Vikings thought they were 'it' until thy went beyond their known world.
And the Aztecas assuredly thought the same until Cortez showed up.
The Zulus the same until the white man arrived
That was the regional 'we are all there is' settings until ships brought the 'other' and the expanded, more ships planes expanded the definition of 'we are it'...

..and now, like I've saidpreviously in similar discussions, Earth and Earth knowledge is as significant as a drop of mist on a blade of grass in a football stadium the size of the Milky Way Galaxy - we are just that insignificant in the grand scheme of things of the vast Universe.

To think other than that, you are no different than an Ant standing on his Ant hill mound proclaiming 'Ant world rules over All'. We all know can be stomped out in a second - well so can this gigantic marvelous Earth and the Milky Way will miss us no more than a kid who stomped a colony of ants &their home after eating dinner and ending the night gaming away.

The accident is indeed real. Only religion makes men feel 'special' ...I'm sure Whales, who've been 25 million years before men, think they are special to...doubt that.

Sorry to be a Debbie Downer to the faithful...but someone has to...

BN747

bennett123 · Wed May 08, 2019 7:11 am

I totally agree that beliefs should be 24/7, not just an hour on Sunday.

Living those beliefs is very hard and everyone keeps failing. You just have to pick yourself up, dust yourself off and start all over again.

As for needing to be a Debbie Downer, why?.

Your approach seems to say that what we do/don’t do is insignificant anyway. If this view that life is pointless is common then it would explain the level of mental problems particularly in the Developed World.

flipdewaf · Wed May 08, 2019 9:57 am

WarRI1 wrote:
I agree, you have the right to believe, or not believe, to accept or not to accept this as an accident or a happening, or creation.

I wouldn't deny anyone that right to believe anything they like. Would you deny my right to question someone why they believe what they believe? If someone would rather close the conversation down after that rather than arguing for something I would have thought they were pretty sure of tells more bout the arguments than would likely have happened if they had given a reasonable response.

WarRI1 wrote:
When someone looks around and observes nature and this world we live in, I cannot accept this as all being a random accident,

It isn't a random accident, a lot of nature is non random selection of random variations. The same reason you think all of this couldn't be random is like the puddle of water thinking how perfectly the pothole was designed to fit its shape, there must have been a creator who made the shape of pothole so perfectly to fit the water.

WarRI1 wrote:
or that science can explain it all. Show me!

I don't know why you think science has claimed it can explain all. It has a system whereby we can learn lots of new facts about the universe and I would think it is impossible to know everything. What Science does when it cannot answer a particular question it says "I don't know (yet)" whereas religion often will try and put whatever deity is the flavour of that religion in to that gap. When science has no evidence it doe not know, when religion has no evidence it shouts faith.

Fred

Magog · Wed May 08, 2019 10:57 am

einsteinboricua wrote:

Were the Crusades a message of moderation?

Im struggling to see how the Crusades have any relevance as to why modern day people believe in God. The current Pope preaches the opposite of the mentality the led to the Crusades.

flipdewaf · Wed May 08, 2019 11:31 am

Magog wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:

Were the Crusades a message of moderation?

Im struggling to see how the Crusades have any relevance as to why modern day people believe in God. The current Pope preaches the opposite of the mentality the led to the Crusades.

Lets not let a man who is surrounded by such opulence and unnecessary pomp and ceremony whilst protecting child rapists within his company whilst taking money from some of the poorest families in the world by fear and indoctrination be anyone that we should take on his word.

Fred

Magog · Wed May 08, 2019 11:33 am

flipdewaf wrote:
Magog wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:

Were the Crusades a message of moderation?

Im struggling to see how the Crusades have any relevance as to why modern day people believe in God. The current Pope preaches the opposite of the mentality the led to the Crusades.

Lets not let a man who is surrounded by such opulence and unnecessary pomp and ceremony whilst protecting child rapists within his company whilst taking money from some of the poorest families in the world by fear and indoctrination be anyone that we should take on his word.

Fred

You clearly don’t understand modern day Catholicism or this Pope. The idea that a Crusade is possible in this age, under this Pope, is utterly laughable.

DL717 · Wed May 08, 2019 12:19 pm

Tugger wrote:
What I don't get is the crassness of some that believe "God" can only be a male.... really? Why? If we are made in "god's image" then god is both male and female at the very least. That some imagine that half the human population is unfit to lead or be involved in the creation of human life, especially when that half is in fact DIRECTLY INVOLVED in the ongoing creation of ALL human life. Is, as I said, crass if not silly on its face.
Tugg

Genesis 1

26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Genesis 2

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat[d] of it you shall surely die.” 18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.”

God created man. Eve was his partner so he did not live alone and could multiply. It continues through Genesis 2, but that’s the core of it.

bennett123 · Wed May 08, 2019 1:09 pm

Genesis1 refers to God creating Man, it also refers to him creating Male and Female.

Clearly it is saying that God created Mankind. Whether it is saying that He is Male is less clear.

bennett123 · Wed May 08, 2019 1:12 pm

Not sure how much the Crusades related to Religion and how much to Loot.

flipdewaf · Wed May 08, 2019 1:18 pm

Magog wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Magog wrote:
Im struggling to see how the Crusades have any relevance as to why modern day people believe in God. The current Pope preaches the opposite of the mentality the led to the Crusades.

Lets not let a man who is surrounded by such opulence and unnecessary pomp and ceremony whilst protecting child rapists within his company whilst taking money from some of the poorest families in the world by fear and indoctrination be anyone that we should take on his word.

Fred

You clearly don’t understand modern day Catholicism or this Pope. The idea that a Crusade is possible in this age, under this Pope, is utterly laughable.

Wait! You think the reason that there are no longer crusades is because of the pope? Everyone I know is waiting to go and rape and kill people that believe in the wrong celestial dictator but that dammed pope keeps getting in the way!

When oh when will I be able to complete all my immoral acts that the church is preventing me from doing!

Do you want to rape and kill people? Is it your god that is preventing you from doing so? If your god told you to kill someone would you?

Fred

Magog · Wed May 08, 2019 2:00 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Magog wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Lets not let a man who is surrounded by such opulence and unnecessary pomp and ceremony whilst protecting child rapists within his company whilst taking money from some of the poorest families in the world by fear and indoctrination be anyone that we should take on his word.

Fred

You clearly don’t understand modern day Catholicism or this Pope. The idea that a Crusade is possible in this age, under this Pope, is utterly laughable.

Wait! You think the reason that there are no longer crusades is because of the pope? Everyone I know is waiting to go and rape and kill people that believe in the wrong celestial dictator but that dammed pope keeps getting in the way.

You missed the part where I said that you clearly did not understand modern-day Catholicism. That is now more obvious than ever.

flipdewaf · Wed May 08, 2019 2:22 pm

Magog wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Magog wrote:
You clearly don’t understand modern day Catholicism or this Pope. The idea that a Crusade is possible in this age, under this Pope, is utterly laughable.

Wait! You think the reason that there are no longer crusades is because of the pope? Everyone I know is waiting to go and rape and kill people that believe in the wrong celestial dictator but that dammed pope keeps getting in the way.

You missed the part where I said that you clearly did not understand modern-day Catholicism. That is now more obvious than ever.

Then enlighten us about 'Modern' Catholicism?
You must of course assume that there is a difference between 'old' and 'modern' version
A:God changed his mind on how he wants it to be? Then how do we know he has changed his mind?
B:We are interpreting it differently? How do we know that we are indeed interpreting it correctly this time and what 'wholly internally' from the church is driving these changes.

Fred

BerenErchamion · Wed May 08, 2019 3:09 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Why do people still believe in God? Science, research and facts have proven there is no God.

They really haven't, though. God as generally understood is thought by those who believe in it as something that exists beyond the confines of logic and natural laws. It's not unreasonable to be skeptical that such a being does or even can exist, but to claim that its nonexistence has been proven is just epistemologically incoherent.

BerenErchamion · Wed May 08, 2019 3:12 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
UAUA wrote:
I am a Catholic and my belief is absolute.
Impossible, it cannot be absolute because of the contradictions in the holy book

And this is a complete failure to understand the role of sacred texts in religious traditions generally, and specifically the role of the Bible in Catholicism (a religious tradition that has always rejected sola scriptura even before that even became a thing people consciously talked about).

I get not being religious or not believing in God. But if you're going to talk about religion as a sociocultural phenomenon, you have to actually come at it with some understanding of those who do or you're just going to be talking out your ass.

BerenErchamion · Wed May 08, 2019 3:18 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Ehh...a bit of apples and oranges. Religious ceremonies may be tradition, but religion itself is not tradition. The Day of the Dead is a cultural thing (which conflicts with religion that discourages believing spirits coming back from the dead) and Halloween (in the American sense) is really a commercial celebration.

Religious traditions are never monolithic or static. It's nonsensical to say that something is not a "tradition" just because it has changed, adapted, or taken multiple cultural influences. After all, that's what *all* cultural phenomena do.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
no stuff about how gay marriage and abortion are sins.

This is just nonsensical. You alluded to it yourself when you suggested that a lot of so-called "radical Islam" is just people using Islamic discourses to justify underlying agendas.

If there were no religion, those interested in social control and gender hierarchy would just find other justifications for it.

BerenErchamion · Wed May 08, 2019 3:21 pm

Tugger wrote:
The state does not own production resources nor are production decisions made by the state

I mean, that wouldn't be socialism either since the state is not society. That'd just be another form of capitalism, with the state as monopoly capitalist--the fundamental relationship of workers to the means of production has not changed, after all.

BerenErchamion · Wed May 08, 2019 3:24 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Imho one should not expect evidence that God exists.

Almost by definition, religion is faith-based.

So if there is no evidence then god must have no discernible effect on the universe. So either there is no god or god is deciding not to do anything.

There's another possibility that you're not considering: that God is doing quite a lot but choosing to do so in a manner that leaves no conclusive material traces of God's involvement. A God that transcends laws of nature and rationality would be perfectly capable of doing exactly that.

BN747 · Wed May 08, 2019 3:24 pm

bennett123 wrote:
I totally agree that beliefs should be 24/7, not just an hour on Sunday.

Living those beliefs is very hard and everyone keeps failing. You just have to pick yourself up, dust yourself off and start all over again.

As for needing to be a Debbie Downer, why?.

Your approach seems to say that what we do/don’t do is insignificant anyway. If this view that life is pointless is common then it would explain the level of mental problems particularly in the Developed World.

Whoa, dude...who said life is pointless?

Just because something is insignificant doesn't mean it's pointless.

Have a pigeon drop a turn on your tux at a wedding is insignificant but makes an insignificant matter one of importance to deal with immediately...at least before the photographer starts snapping off shots.

Now, my point which you apparently failed to grasp...6 miles above your head, a passenger looks down - from there 'we seem' like the ants buzzing around in every direction' - just as 6 feet up looking down..ants look just like up from the passenger in the plane. Bottom line is, the world stage is not even measurable (if detectable) compared to the galactic stage and completely disappears when the world stage is next the universe stage point of view.

Yes, while here, down on Earth, existence is important to us, your mom, your family, your kids, your job and on and on and on. But collectively, all of us, all of our thoughts, all our combined intellect (and all of our stupidity & ignorance) matters a lot to us while nothing at all. Everything gets reduced to nothing when you take in the whole. Riding in Concorde, the earth is recognizable but as it climbs the details fade to land masses then the curve of the Earth itself shows our entire planet to be far from being the biggest deal around in our solar system and beyond.

So our being is far from pointless, it's fun, it's enjoyable accompanied by pain, cruelty as well....until it is taken away. The end is THE END.

I know ancient biblical text has managed to convince many minds that they are special, that they are so special and unique that they get to defy the entire universe.

They get the opportunity to live ...forever. As long as they believe in this guy.

But EVERYTHING else in the Universe ....must DIE. But not the humans on teeny tiny little Earth - they have all figured out, they are the smart ones.

I posted in another thread this suggestion, next time you visit the beach - pick up a grain of sand.

Just one grain.

And recall the mantra, that 'there are more Stars (and most have multiple planets) than in this Universe than there are grains of sand on every beach on Earth'.

Now tell your self "But this grain of sand - special, unique from ALL other grains of sand. Folks, that grain of sand - is Earth.

...and as much as you like it to be, sorry...but definitely is NOT,

BN747

flipdewaf · Wed May 08, 2019 3:29 pm

BerenErchamion wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
UAUA wrote:
I am a Catholic and my belief is absolute.
Impossible, it cannot be absolute because of the contradictions in the holy book

And this is a complete failure to understand the role of sacred texts in religious traditions generally, and specifically the role of the Bible in Catholicism (a religious tradition that has always rejected sola scriptura even before that even became a thing people consciously talked about).

Well if one has to decide on the nature and understanding from contradicting pieces of information then one must have a particular bias outside of that text with which to make the judgement in the first place be that discussed as a group or on an individual basis.
You say.
1. This is what I think
2. Lets find that in the bible
3. Lets tell people that the bible agrees

I just miss out the second 2 steps and take my own responsibility.

BerenErchamion wrote:
I get not being religious or not believing in God. But if you're going to talk about religion as a sociocultural phenomenon, you have to actually come at it with some understanding of those who do or you're just going to be talking out your ass.

I dont care about a 'sociocultural phenomenon', I care about what's true.

Fred

flipdewaf · Wed May 08, 2019 3:32 pm

BerenErchamion wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Imho one should not expect evidence that God exists.

Almost by definition, religion is faith-based.

So if there is no evidence then god must have no discernible effect on the universe. So either there is no god or god is deciding not to do anything.

There's another possibility that you're not considering: that God is doing quite a lot but choosing to do so in a manner that leaves no conclusive material traces of God's involvement. A God that transcends laws of nature and rationality would be perfectly capable of doing exactly that.

Like the fairies and celestial teapot and the giant spaghetti monster. Why should I (or anyone) care about something that can have no impact on mine or others live or the world around us.

Fred

bennett123 · Wed May 08, 2019 5:01 pm

BN747

Happy to accept ‘insignificant’ rather than pointless.

Fred

No one is asking you to care.

zrs70 · Wed May 08, 2019 5:16 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
zrs70 wrote:

My theology does not come out of new age feel good stuff. It is based on 1000’s of years of Jewish exploration.

Damn shame your theology is based on 1000’s of years of ignorance, with not a jot of tangible evidence that god exists.

LOL! I hear you. Perhaps my ignorance is bliss! Then again, I've never been able to fully define infinite, yet I know it exists. Have a great day!

flipdewaf · Wed May 08, 2019 5:19 pm

bennett123 wrote:

Fred

No one is asking you to care.

well then you missed my point. Bergen has stated that god has no measurable effect on the universe an so I was countering with other things that are equally as likely but also give no effect on the universe. What difference is there between a Flying Spaghetti Monster and any of the other deities?

But maybe you unwittingly let people know that you require someone to tell you if you should care or not. I’m happy to understand myself what I should care about.

This might also be the answer to the original question in opening post. If someone answers why we care about something that has no evidence for existing the the question might be answered.

Fred

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Tugger · Wed May 08, 2019 5:57 pm

bennett123 wrote:
BN747

Happy to accept ‘insignificant’ rather than pointless.

Fred

No one is asking you to care.

And I don't think anyone would care if it weren't for the fact that "people of God" keep trying to impose what they believe on everyone else. If that was not constantly, actively occurring there wouldn't be a problem.

Of course it woudln't end the "that's not how we do it 'round here" element that happens everywhere. Personal values and ideals for how you live are what they are. But the organized religious pontification of what people should or must do and how they should or must act (and what they should believe) gets dangerous because people are willing to die for it (that is the important part of religion, it promises everlasting life or truth once your life on earth ends). That ramps up how much pressure they are willing to apply to others to fall in line.

Tugg

BN747 · Wed May 08, 2019 7:47 pm

bennett123 wrote:
BN747

Happy to accept ‘insignificant’ rather than pointless.

Fred

No one is asking you to care.

Exactly, nothing wrong with accepting the fact that our teeny tiny little world weighing in as ‘insignificant’ ...I’m very okay with that but imagine if Earth was the largest planet in the solar system...jeez can you imagine the religious leaders then ...we are the biggest of everything there is’...we are the shit!

You couldn’t shut them up!

BN747

WarRI1 · Thu May 09, 2019 1:14 am

flipdewaf wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
I agree, you have the right to believe, or not believe, to accept or not to accept this as an accident or a happening, or creation.
I wouldn't deny anyone that right to believe anything they like. Would you deny my right to question someone why they believe what they believe? If someone would rather close the conversation down after that rather than arguing for something I would have thought they were pretty sure of tells more bout the arguments than would likely have happened if they had given a reasonable response.
WarRI1 wrote:
When someone looks around and observes nature and this world we live in, I cannot accept this as all being a random accident,
It isn't a random accident, a lot of nature is non random selection of random variations. The same reason you think all of this couldn't be random is like the puddle of water thinking how perfectly the pothole was designed to fit its shape, there must have been a creator who made the shape of pothole so perfectly to fit the water.

WarRI1 wrote:
or that science can explain it all. Show me!
I don't know why you think science has claimed it can explain all. It has a system whereby we can learn lots of new facts about the universe and I would think it is impossible to know everything. What Science does when it cannot answer a particular question it says "I don't know (yet)" whereas religion often will try and put whatever deity is the flavour of that religion in to that gap. When science has no evidence it doe not know, when religion has no evidence it shouts faith.

Fred

What is the origin of the Universe?

BN747 · Thu May 09, 2019 2:00 am

WarRI1 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
I agree, you have the right to believe, or not believe, to accept or not to accept this as an accident or a happening, or creation.
I wouldn't deny anyone that right to believe anything they like. Would you deny my right to question someone why they believe what they believe? If someone would rather close the conversation down after that rather than arguing for something I would have thought they were pretty sure of tells more bout the arguments than would likely have happened if they had given a reasonable response.
WarRI1 wrote:
When someone looks around and observes nature and this world we live in, I cannot accept this as all being a random accident,
It isn't a random accident, a lot of nature is non random selection of random variations. The same reason you think all of this couldn't be random is like the puddle of water thinking how perfectly the pothole was designed to fit its shape, there must have been a creator who made the shape of pothole so perfectly to fit the water.

WarRI1 wrote:
or that science can explain it all. Show me!
I don't know why you think science has claimed it can explain all. It has a system whereby we can learn lots of new facts about the universe and I would think it is impossible to know everything. What Science does when it cannot answer a particular question it says "I don't know (yet)" whereas religion often will try and put whatever deity is the flavour of that religion in to that gap. When science has no evidence it doe not know, when religion has no evidence it shouts faith.

Fred

What is the origin of the Universe?

We are currently stuck with the Big Bang which has gone on to newer theories - that Big Bangs may occur all the time, yielding the notion of multiple Universes XXX Multiverses because 'universe ' means one.... 'uni'.

String theory leads the way in suggesting the Multiverse theory.

As to your question: What is the origin of the Universe?

I'm afraid the direct answer to that lies beyond all 'Earthly knowledge' meaning we just aren't smart enough just yet to put all the pieces together. Many Astrophysicists are calling for a new math for more accurate detailed findings that will certainly lead to more questions - this is no realm for 'microwave mentality' types in want of a quick answer.

Knowledge outside of the human range of comprehension/understanding certainly exist and most likely lie with beings far more intelligent than we are (and for those offended by that, I am certain there are plenty of worlds populated by beings dumber than we are).

I wish I could live additional 100 years to see where we stand as far galactic/cosmic discoveries. Given what we knew 100 years ago vs now..is mindboggling, the last 15 or so years things have moved at a rapid pace..100 years from now outshine our past 100 years by 10X fold. But I fully understand I will not be around for that but am grateful I've been able to live thru this period of discovery of the last 25 years and there's plenty of discoveries we will make before my expiration date.

I recently told a grieving person, 'We all must experience it, loss of a loved one..we - like a milk carton have an expiration date. I've checked my body 1000 times and can't find mine. She broke into light laughter..I told her I wasn't trying to be funny but when my mother passed..that thought was rather soothing, we have that unknown date with finality.

But the chase to find how it all started is exciting in itself, but rest assured we will find who killed JFK long before we discover the universes' beginning.

BN747

WarRI1 · Thu May 09, 2019 2:21 am

I'm afraid the direct answer to that lies beyond all 'Earthly knowledge' meaning we just aren't smart enough just yet to put all the pieces together. Many Astrophysicists are calling for a new math for more accurate detailed findings that will certainly lead to more questions - this is no realm for 'microwave mentality' types in want of a quick answer

Exactly, beyond earthly knowledge, therefore any theory about how and what created this thing we have is open to any possibility, such as a Creator. For something to happen, something had to exist. How did anything exist ? To me, it is the unanswerable question. I like to hedge my bets, so I believe in something, which is better than nothing, even if it just serves to make ones existence here a little more satisfying by doing so.

BN747 · Thu May 09, 2019 3:13 am

WarRI1 wrote:
I'm afraid the direct answer to that lies beyond all 'Earthly knowledge' meaning we just aren't smart enough just yet to put all the pieces together. Many Astrophysicists are calling for a new math for more accurate detailed findings that will certainly lead to more questions - this is no realm for 'microwave mentality' types in want of a quick answer

Exactly, beyond earthly knowledge, therefore any theory about how and what created this thing we have is open to any possibility, such as a Creator. For something to happen, something had to exist. How did anything exist ? To me, it is the unanswerable question. I like to hedge my bets, so I believe in something, which is better than nothing, even if it just serves to make ones existence here a little more satisfying by doing so.

A 'creator' in the general sense of the word yes, but none of that religious spiritual nonsense..that junk thought is born out of sheer fear.

A creator beyond our understanding is more likely meaning a a string of chemical reactions, this is the terrain string theories' 11 dimensions aim towards.

By no means should you diminish or discard the 'earthly knowledge' that led us to Cassini, Galileo and the other deep space probes that reached distances people 40 years ago could not possibly imagine.

That earthly thinking is less than a billionth of a single percent of what we know...but it's something. And given the centuries of ignorance we've survived, a look back at all that wasted time - we certainly looked like scattering ants from afar.

We have three choices.

1) Sit around do our thing and count on the old goat herders who had no clue about treating simple disease to basic biology...and rely on their versions of what is to come.

or

2) Sit around do our thing and don't give a damn.

or

3) Sit around do our thing and enjoy the accident that created us nd poke and poke around an discover things all around us and never stop asking 'but how..'

I'll hitch my wagon to the latter.

BN747

flipdewaf · Thu May 09, 2019 4:59 am

WarRI1 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
I agree, you have the right to believe, or not believe, to accept or not to accept this as an accident or a happening, or creation.
I wouldn't deny anyone that right to believe anything they like. Would you deny my right to question someone why they believe what they believe? If someone would rather close the conversation down after that rather than arguing for something I would have thought they were pretty sure of tells more bout the arguments than would likely have happened if they had given a reasonable response.
WarRI1 wrote:
When someone looks around and observes nature and this world we live in, I cannot accept this as all being a random accident,
It isn't a random accident, a lot of nature is non random selection of random variations. The same reason you think all of this couldn't be random is like the puddle of water thinking how perfectly the pothole was designed to fit its shape, there must have been a creator who made the shape of pothole so perfectly to fit the water.

WarRI1 wrote:
or that science can explain it all. Show me!
I don't know why you think science has claimed it can explain all. It has a system whereby we can learn lots of new facts about the universe and I would think it is impossible to know everything. What Science does when it cannot answer a particular question it says "I don't know (yet)" whereas religion often will try and put whatever deity is the flavour of that religion in to that gap. When science has no evidence it doe not know, when religion has no evidence it shouts faith.

Fred

What is the origin of the Universe?

We have evidence to suggest that there was some sort of explosion/beginning of the expansion but how that occurred we really don’t know as there has yet to be any reasonable evidence. It could be a ‘Big Crunch’ it could be from a joining of two of the multiverses, it could be from a creator, it could be that the space time continuum breaks down so much that the same universe simply plays out as infinitum. However without evidence I’m happy* to say ‘I don’t know’.

*I want to know, I’m happiest when I do know and really I’m not that comfortable with not knowing but I’m less happy/comfortable to pretend I know when really I don’t.

Fred

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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