'I don't want Albert Einstein to be my pilot': Trump claims planes are 'becoming far too complex to fly' following 737

QueenoftheSkies · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:09 am

Too much automation to remove human error becoming a problem? Hate to say it but he makes a valid point.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... x-fly.html

billreid · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:20 am

So an idiot who doesn't have a drives license knows about piloting. I think he just finds himself so wonderful and so smart. Another person who needs to shut their mouth and let the pros do their work.

wjcandee · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:23 am

billreid wrote:
So an idiot who doesn't have a drives license knows about piloting. I think he just finds himself so wonderful and so smart. Another person who needs to shut their mouth and let the pros do their work.

He owns a 757, used to own a 727, and owns a bunch of helicopters. His chief pilot has said that he is actually very-knowledgeable about the aircraft, and illustrated it with examples and anecdotes.

And probably want to check your spelling when calling somebody else an "idiot".

madpropsyo · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:34 am

Every single statistic on aviation safety over the last 50 years proves this ludicrous statement false. What a load of bollocks.

VS11 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:34 am

wjcandee wrote:
billreid wrote:
So an idiot who doesn't have a drives license knows about piloting. I think he just finds himself so wonderful and so smart. Another person who needs to shut their mouth and let the pros do their work.

He owns a 757, used to own a 727, and owns a bunch of helicopters. His chief pilot has said that he is actually very-knowledgeable about the aircraft, and illustrated it with examples and anecdotes.

And probably want to check your spelling when calling somebody else an "idiot".

He also owned an airline - Trump Shuttle, ex-Eastern Shuttle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Shuttle

OldAeroGuy · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:36 am

wjcandee wrote:
billreid wrote:
So an idiot who doesn't have a drives license knows about piloting. I think he just finds himself so wonderful and so smart. Another person who needs to shut their mouth and let the pros do their work.

He owns a 757, used to own a 727, and owns a bunch of helicopters. His chief pilot has said that he is actually very-knowledgeable about the aircraft, and illustrated it with examples and anecdotes.

And probably want to check your spelling when calling somebody else an "idiot".

Weii, he is certainly incorrect in saying airplanes are "too complex to fly".

LAXBUR · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:37 am

wjcandee wrote:
billreid wrote:
So an idiot who doesn't have a drives license knows about piloting. I think he just finds himself so wonderful and so smart. Another person who needs to shut their mouth and let the pros do their work.

He owns a 757, used to own a 727, and owns a bunch of helicopters. His chief pilot has said that he is actually very-knowledgeable about the aircraft, and illustrated it with examples and anecdotes.

And probably want to check your spelling when calling somebody else an "idiot".

Owning an airplane doesn’t make you an aviation expert just like owning a car doesn’t make you a car mechanic. Being a frequent flyer doesn’t make you an aviation expert except maybe to rate your first class meal.

eidvm · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:38 am

A broken clock is correct twice a day.

Elementalism · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:38 am

QueenoftheSkies wrote:
Too much automation to remove human error becoming a problem? Hate to say it but he makes a valid point.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... x-fly.html

He doesnt make a great point. Except to show is shear ignorance of airplanes. If anything these planes are easier to fly today than even 20 years ago.

russwatters · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:39 am

QueenoftheSkies wrote:
Too much automation to remove human error becoming a problem? Hate to say it but he makes a valid point.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... x-fly.html

Agree with the first, disagree with the second. He actually has the issue exactly backwards -- but your read of it is too, so too wrongs equal a right!

Yes, automation to remove human error can become a problem. Skills degrade as a result, and complacency rises. This is a basic problem that can be seen with automation in a lot of areas. But it's because automation makes things easier to use, not harder.

AF447 is a bizarrely egregious example where a pilot bungled a basic piloting skill likely because flying the plane wasn't supposed to require that skill (stall identification and recovery).

This is a tough issue, but the upside is that in order for it to become a significant issue, planes first had to become spectacularly safe. Similarly, automation will radically reduce car accident deaths, even if some idiot occasionally decapitates himself by driving under a truck because he was over-estimating its capabilities.

LAXBUR · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:40 am

VS11 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
billreid wrote:
So an idiot who doesn't have a drives license knows about piloting. I think he just finds himself so wonderful and so smart. Another person who needs to shut their mouth and let the pros do their work.

He owns a 757, used to own a 727, and owns a bunch of helicopters. His chief pilot has said that he is actually very-knowledgeable about the aircraft, and illustrated it with examples and anecdotes.

And probably want to check your spelling when calling somebody else an "idiot".

He also owned an airline - Trump Shuttle.

And it ran out of money in just over a year.

lostsound · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:41 am

wjcandee wrote:
billreid wrote:
So an idiot who doesn't have a drives license knows about piloting. I think he just finds himself so wonderful and so smart. Another person who needs to shut their mouth and let the pros do their work.

He owns a 757, used to own a 727, and owns a bunch of helicopters. His chief pilot has said that he is actually very-knowledgeable about the aircraft, and illustrated it with examples and anecdotes.

And probably want to check your spelling when calling somebody else an "idiot".

I own a TV so I guess I know everything about how they’re constructed and am magically very knowledgeable about the processes that make it function.

Also I wouldn’t take the word of anybody paid by Trump. Are you not up on the news?

Pilot error makes up the majority of aviation accidents, I’m not sure there’s actually any figures to back up the claim that technology has made flying less safe.

LAXBUR · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:43 am

lostsound wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
billreid wrote:
So an idiot who doesn't have a drives license knows about piloting. I think he just finds himself so wonderful and so smart. Another person who needs to shut their mouth and let the pros do their work.

He owns a 757, used to own a 727, and owns a bunch of helicopters. His chief pilot has said that he is actually very-knowledgeable about the aircraft, and illustrated it with examples and anecdotes.

And probably want to check your spelling when calling somebody else an "idiot".

I own a TV so I guess I know everything about how they’re constructed and am magically very knowledgeable about the processes that make it function.

Also I wouldn’t take the word of anybody paid by Trump. Are you not up on the news?

Pilot error makes up the majority of aviation accidents, I’m not sure there’s actually any figures to back up the claim that technology has made flying less safe.

Well considering overall there are more people flying than ever with less accidents is enough for me. Pretty much everything Trump says is intended to incite fear because that’s his overall narrative even for things such as this that don’t really need an emotional angle.

VS11 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:45 am

LAXBUR wrote:
VS11 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

He owns a 757, used to own a 727, and owns a bunch of helicopters. His chief pilot has said that he is actually very-knowledgeable about the aircraft, and illustrated it with examples and anecdotes.

And probably want to check your spelling when calling somebody else an "idiot".

He also owned an airline - Trump Shuttle.

And it ran out of money in just over a year.

Quite possibly. I was not defending him or otherwise endorsing him. Just adding to his relation to aviation.

LAXBUR · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:52 am

He also takes credit for air safety. So he’s telling us that we aren’t safe but taking credit for air safety?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ret ... a7e4dd5945

wjcandee · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:59 am

His overall point is that one needs stick and rudder skills. Expressed in a Trumpian way. AA used to believe this as well.

winginit · Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:01 am

QueenoftheSkies wrote:
Too much automation to remove human error becoming a problem? Hate to say it but he makes a valid point.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... x-fly.html

Specifically which point do you think is valid?

Endeavor · Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:02 am

Well, he's no Albert Einstein so...

Aesma · Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:14 am

Is he not throwing Boeing under the bus with this tweet ?

LAXBUR · Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:17 am

Aesma wrote:
Is he not throwing Boeing under the bus with this tweet ?

He’s protecting himself first.

By tweeting this he is protecting himself should another incident happen. He can claim “told you so.”. On the same token should Boeing be absolved from one or both accidents he can claim he and his team took the right action since the US has not yet grounded.

SteelChair · Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:18 am

Why do polticians feel the need to weigh in on every item thats in the news? Both parties do it on multiple issues. I remember Obama weighing in on issues he knew nothing about. I remember thinking, why does he even need to comment on this issue. Same thought in this situation.

All we need now is for the current Amtrak chairman to weigh in, we know how much he loves Boeing...this would be the perfect time for him to pile on also.

BN747 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:36 am

LAXBUR wrote:
VS11 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

He owns a 757, used to own a 727, and owns a bunch of helicopters. His chief pilot has said that he is actually very-knowledgeable about the aircraft, and illustrated it with examples and anecdotes.

And probably want to check your spelling when calling somebody else an "idiot".

He also owned an airline - Trump Shuttle.

And it ran out of money in just over a year.

You're too kind...he tool the profitable Eastern Airlines Shuttle and drove it straight into the red ink.
Just like his Casinos - where he defied the mantra 'the house always wins'..and drove 6 of those into the ground.

And with his great business skills ...he's now the pilot of greatest economy the world has ever seen.

Buckle up...

BN747

casinterest · Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:36 am

Donald Trump is as he was. An absolute moron.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_ ... _incidents

Every one of those years there were more planes in the sky and more automation.

seb146 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:44 am

This is why I don't tweet. Every time he posts something on twitter it is just insane. He can have his opinion but you can be sure there are people who honestly believe ever letter he puts out there......

JAAlbert · Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:09 am

I bet Albert Einstein wouldn't want Trump as his pilot either! Being in the same cabin with the Pres would be difficult I think.

Which reminds me of a humorous moment as I boarded a SWA plane many years ago. The plane was almost completely empty. A very beautiful woman (my colleague actually) boarded first and wandered down the aisle looking for the best seat among so many available. An old lecher, smelling of alcohol, boarded in back of me, salivating at my colleague ahead. He slapped me on my back, nearly knocking me into the aisle, leered at my colleague and said "Of all the seats in this darn airplane, which one will you choose? Heheh." I replied "It depends on where you'll be sitting."

ltbewr · Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:10 am

Trump can also be blamed in part for the 35 day government and FAA/NTSB shutdown that with other reasons delayed Boeing from putting out the software fix to into April that may have prevented the ET crash.

Trump has apparently called Boeing's CEO ant told him the USA government won't shut down 737MAX operations in the USA or demand Boeing call for a shutdown.

The FAA has no permanent head and the head of the Dept. of Transportation is the wife of the head of the Senate, good old 'Turtle' himself and stooge for Trump and corporations.

There are plenty of reports of pilots facing problems with the automated systems on these planes and having to turn them off and fly the plane. I wish that all pilots of 737MAX aircraft would refuse to fly them, with the backing of their unions as for sure a violation of their contracts and not only save pax lives, but for their own lives.

If Pres. Trump were really politically smart, he would demand the FAA or head of the Dept. of Transportation or even by Executive Order, suspend operations of all 737MAX aircraft in the USA as could claim he 'is saving lives'.

sadiqutp · Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:15 am

Here is how I imagine what led to him tweeting this: (trigger notice)

- Trump going throw twitter and saw the trending subject stealing the spotlight from him.
- Trump to his staff : bring me someone from faa to tell me what's going on.
Faa staff meeting trump
- trump: what is going on?
- Faa staff: the newly designed 737 max got into an accident in Indonesia , and a few month later this accident happened ..... Etc
- Trump: so you are saying the computer on the plane caused the accidents?
- faa staff : no, what I am saying is that the computer did what it's supposed to do but the problem might be the sensors that feed the computer or maybe the pilots didn't do what they......
- Trump interrupting: I am confused. Was it the computer that made the plane fall down? Yes or no?
- Faa staff: well yes and no.. Let me explain...
- Trump: I have heard enough.. I don't know why you need to complicate things... Go away
Trump proceeds to tweet

Confuscius · Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:58 am

He knows more about airplanes than pilots and mechanics, his gut told him so.

BN747 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:52 am

I wonder if those who blindly support this fool would be as eager to sit in a plane piloted by him saying ‘I know more than these pilots! Let’s go!’

I guess when ur butt really is on the line...common sense just might kick in.

BN747

PHLspecial · Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:58 am

wjcandee wrote:
billreid wrote:
So an idiot who doesn't have a drives license knows about piloting. I think he just finds himself so wonderful and so smart. Another person who needs to shut their mouth and let the pros do their work.

He owns a 757, used to own a 727, and owns a bunch of helicopters. His chief pilot has said that he is actually very-knowledgeable about the aircraft, and illustrated it with examples and anecdotes.

And probably want to check your spelling when calling somebody else an "idiot".

Just because you brought an airplane doesn't mean you understand all the system features. For example just because you brought a high end expensive car does that mean you understand all the intended used features of the car?

CitizenJustin · Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:21 am

Too complex for who? Him?

CitizenJustin · Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:23 am

BN747 wrote:
I wonder if those who blindly support this fool would be as eager to sit in a plane piloted by him saying ‘I know more than these pilots! Let’s go!’

I guess when ur butt really is on the line...common sense just might kick in.

BN747

Not with his diet of McDonald’s and coke. He’s a walking heart attack.

tommy1808 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:51 am

wjcandee wrote:
billreid wrote:
So an idiot who doesn't have a drives license knows about piloting. I think he just finds himself so wonderful and so smart. Another person who needs to shut their mouth and let the pros do their work.

He owns a 757, used to own a 727, and owns a bunch of helicopters. His chief pilot has said that he is actually very-knowledgeable about the aircraft, and illustrated it with examples and anecdotes.

And probably want to check your spelling when calling somebody else an "idiot".

That incompetent duo knows so much about aircraft that they had their own one grounded in the middle of his presidential campaign.

"Idiot" is entirely correct.

Best regards
Thomad

Max Q · Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:58 am

The worlds biggest moron has another stupid thought he insisted
on sharing

What’s new ?

NIKV69 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:15 am

Elementalism wrote:

He doesnt make a great point. Except to show is shear ignorance of airplanes. If anything these planes are easier to fly today than even 20 years ago.

I don't think he meant that. I think he meant they are deigning the pilot out of the cockpit. Just look at AF447. Perfect example.

BN747 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:21 am

CitizenJustin wrote:
BN747 wrote:
I wonder if those who blindly support this fool would be as eager to sit in a plane piloted by him saying ‘I know more than these pilots! Let’s go!’

I guess when ur butt really is on the line...common sense just might kick in.

BN747

Not with his diet of McDonald’s and coke. He’s a walking heart attack.

Dude, whatever resides (if anything) ..taking up the space where a brain is suppose to be scares people more than clogged arteries...

BN747

tommy1808 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:32 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Elementalism wrote:

He doesnt make a great point. Except to show is shear ignorance of airplanes. If anything these planes are easier to fly today than even 20 years ago.

I don't think he meant that. I think he meant they are deigning the pilot out of the cockpit. Just look at AF447. Perfect example.

AF447 is the perfect example of how the statement is wrong. The plane knew it was stalling, the Pilots decided they know better.

Accident rates are dropping like stones since fly by wire made its wide entry in civil aviation...... in the last 20 years traffic increased 150%, fatal accidents dropped by a factor of 8, hull losses by a factor of 3.

best regards
Thomas

Eikie · Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:33 am

tommy1808 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Elementalism wrote:

He doesnt make a great point. Except to show is shear ignorance of airplanes. If anything these planes are easier to fly today than even 20 years ago.

I don't think he meant that. I think he meant they are deigning the pilot out of the cockpit. Just look at AF447. Perfect example.

AF447 is the perfect example of how the statement is wrong. The plane knew it was stalling, the Pilots decided they know better.

Accident rates are dropping like stones since fly by wire made its wide entry in civil aviation...... in the last 20 years traffic increased 150%, fatal accidents dropped by a factor of 8, hull losses by a factor of 3.

best regards
Thomas

They didn't know better, they just didn't know.
They didn't know the airspeed was wrong.
They didn't know they had stalled.
One didn't know the other was pulling on the stick.
They didn't know the airspeed low warning was correct but maybe inappropiate whenever they did manage to increase the speed.

They did an awful lot of things wrong and should/could have rescued the situation, but there really is a point to be made more complex technology might start to decrease safety, or at least training and regulations are not moving at the same pace.

tommy1808 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:45 am

Eikie wrote:
but there really is a point to be made more complex technology might start to decrease safety, or at least training and regulations are not moving at the same pace.

Mostly training, trouble shooting is basically what pilots are on board for, and an aweful lot of accidents is from that being messed up. The computer will fly better, safer, more efficient any day, but they are not good in handling exceptions. Humans are still better at that, but as everything, once we really try to get a computer to do it, they will exceed humans abilities and leave us behind forever......

best regards
Thomas

Jouhou · Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:56 am

Max Q wrote:
The worlds biggest moron has another stupid thought he insisted
on sharing

What’s new ?

I did notice that the generally Trump supporting crowd tends to overlap nicely with the group of people who state there is definitely nothing wrong with the max and precautionary measures are not necessary and global aviation authorities are over-reacting etc

Then Trump bumbles through on Twitter with the world's poorest understanding of MCAS possible seemingly squarely blaming MCAS despite there not actually being any public knowledge of that being involved in the Ethiopian crash.

BartSimpson · Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:59 am

wjcandee wrote:
... His chief pilot has said that he is actually very-knowledgeable about the aircraft, and illustrated it with examples and anecdotes...

And that's why he became the chief pilot...

Eikie · Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:23 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Eikie wrote:
but there really is a point to be made more complex technology might start to decrease safety, or at least training and regulations are not moving at the same pace.

Mostly training, trouble shooting is basically what pilots are on board for, and an aweful lot of accidents is from that being messed up. The computer will fly better, safer, more efficient any day, but they are not good in handling exceptions. Humans are still better at that, but as everything, once we really try to get a computer to do it, they will exceed humans abilities and leave us behind forever......

best regards
Thomas

Your absolutely right, but, in my opinion, only partly.
Sure a computer van be more efficient, safe and economie al, but the problem nowadays is that of that computer fails, the pilots find themselves immideately is a very complex situation requiring complex problem solving which might not always be possible (time, human limits, training, etc).
In modern planes it's not just that computer which fails, but there might be computers which shut off, crash or behave different than before. Training might help a lot, but increased flying hours, fatigue and regulations work against it.
It might be possible that current computers have made flying safer in total by reducing accidents, but made accidents that dus occur less easy to avoid or prevent (by solving the problem) because if the fabulous computer fails that one rare time, the problem is just to complex to solve.

tommy1808 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:48 am

Eikie wrote:
It might be possible that current computers have made flying safer in total by reducing accidents, but made accidents that dus occur less easy to avoid or prevent (by solving the problem) because if the fabulous computer fails that one rare time, the problem is just to complex to solve.

which is more of an argument to eliminate the Pilot one day though....

best regards
Thomas

L410Turbolet · Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:54 am

wjcandee wrote:
billreid wrote:
So an idiot who doesn't have a drives license knows about piloting. I think he just finds himself so wonderful and so smart. Another person who needs to shut their mouth and let the pros do their work.

He owns a 757, used to own a 727, and owns a bunch of helicopters. His chief pilot has said that he is actually very-knowledgeable about the aircraft, and illustrated it with examples and anecdotes.

Talk about being naive. What else is he supposed to say about his boss if he wants to keep his job?

Eikie · Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:29 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Eikie wrote:
It might be possible that current computers have made flying safer in total by reducing accidents, but made accidents that dus occur less easy to avoid or prevent (by solving the problem) because if the fabulous computer fails that one rare time, the problem is just to complex to solve.

which is more of an argument to eliminate the Pilot one day though....

best regards
Thomas

Maybe, if computers never crash... Or technology and humans are better integrated (design, training, amount, etc).

WIederling · Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:06 am

'I don't want Albert Einstein to be my pilot'

hehe.

Einstein would probably deem Trump too simple a model.

ref:
https://championingscience.com/2013/11/ ... o-simpler/

SheikhDjibouti · Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:52 am

WIederling wrote:
Einstein would probably deem Trump too simple a model.

The "model" is his wife.

Trump is just simple.

simple
[ˈsɪmp(ə)l]
ADJECTIVE
1. easily understood or done; presenting no difficulty.
2. straightforward · easy · uncomplicated · uninvolved · effortless ·
3. plain, basic, or uncomplicated in form, nature, or design; without much decoration or ornamentation.
4. of very low intelligence. :checkmark:

God bless Wikipedia!

einsteinboricua · Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:05 pm

This is the guy who says he knows everything about airplanes (wouldn't be surprised if he's boasted about knowing more than anybody, as he does with other topics), but says they're too complex to fly...well, yeah. To the Average Joe without formal training, they're complex. To a certified commercial pilot, probably a walk in the park.

I can't keep facepalming much longer...I'll end up with a hand mark on my face.

Danny · Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:20 pm

He must be right as he is an expert in everything:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GqJna9hpTE

:roll:

zkojq · Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:36 pm

The best thing about threads like this is that there's always someone doing mental gymnastics to explain why they think what he said is actually perfectly rational. :roll:

I saw someone try to rationalize his comments on "the nuclear" the other day...

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/donal ... -sentence/

BartSimpson wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
... His chief pilot has said that he is actually very-knowledgeable about the aircraft, and illustrated it with examples and anecdotes...

And that's why he became the chief pilot...

So true.

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