British Airways suspends five pilots over racist emails

speedbird52 · Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:17 am

I feel like we are all glossing over the fact that someone raped a chicken and then sent videos of it over WORK EMAIL, to COWORKERS. Why is this not grounds for firing?

Super80Fan · Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:17 am

It's 2019, why are they still using email? Use a private chat or Messenger or something.

Aesma · Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:42 am

speedbird52 wrote:
I feel like we are all glossing over the fact that someone raped a chicken and then sent videos of it over WORK EMAIL, to COWORKERS. Why is this not grounds for firing?

I'm hoping it's a photoshop rape.

yodobashi · Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:46 am

Page 2 of this thread and nobody has yet pointed out that this article is published by the Daily Mail, therefore readers should exercise caution and take everything with a pinch of salt. The Daily Mail was/is a major contributing party to the mess the U.K. is currently enduring apropos 'Brexit'!

BA777FO · Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:43 am

speedbird52 wrote:
I feel like we are all glossing over the fact that someone raped a chicken and then sent videos of it over WORK EMAIL, to COWORKERS. Why is this not grounds for firing?

Just for clarity - they were not sent via work email - they were sent via personal email addresses but it related to their work as union company council members. That said, the language and content of those emails remains unacceptable and I have no doubt what action the airline will take.

There is more to the story than will ever come out in the Daily Mail. The emails mentioned were written just over 6 years ago and the timing of their release, when critical negotiations on pay are ongoing between BA and three unions, is no coincidence.

Again, this behaviour cannot be condoned or tolerated and I have no doubt after a fair and thorough investigation the airline will take appropriate action.

ewt340 · Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:46 am

KingOrGod wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
hypersensitivity

Bingo. What basically happened: I'm going to go with this because it's great, until it fits my agenda about playing the race card. And poof. Another snowflake born.

FYI, some of the biggest racists I know are not white people either. Some of them others are, but racism isn't only white people y'all know, right?

Yeah, White people can't be racist. This is just some Marxist Propaganda at best. Oh and the earth is flat + Vacination lead to homesuality and Autoimune disease that make Virgin women pregnant 2000 years ago that lead to people getting hang on cross or something. I don't know.

But seriously though. The only "White" people who said "not all white people are racist" always ended being a racist person.
Of course not all people are racist. That's just logical. The fact that some people have to pointed out that entire ethnic group is not racist is hella weird.

Back to the topic. The Racism AND Bestiality are double combo for termination. Like really? you want to argue with that?

speedbird52 · Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:09 am

Aesma wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
I feel like we are all glossing over the fact that someone raped a chicken and then sent videos of it over WORK EMAIL, to COWORKERS. Why is this not grounds for firing?

I'm hoping it's a photoshop rape.

Video editing is a lot harder than photo editing

speedbird52 · Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:14 am

ewt340 wrote:
KingOrGod wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
hypersensitivity

Bingo. What basically happened: I'm going to go with this because it's great, until it fits my agenda about playing the race card. And poof. Another snowflake born.

FYI, some of the biggest racists I know are not white people either. Some of them others are, but racism isn't only white people y'all know, right?

Yeah, White people can't be racist. This is just some Marxist Propaganda at best. Oh and the earth is flat + Vacination lead to homesuality and Autoimune disease that make Virgin women pregnant 2000 years ago that lead to people getting hang on cross or something. I don't know.

But seriously though. The only "White" people who said "not all white people are racist" always ended being a racist person.
Of course not all people are racist. That's just logical. The fact that some people have to pointed out that entire ethnic group is not racist is hella weird.

Back to the topic. The Racism AND Bestiality are double combo for termination. Like really? you want to argue with that?

I cannot understand how not wanting to be called a n***** makes someone a snowflake. If I walked up to you, and said: "Hey, f*** you you f***** piece of s****, I f***** hate you, go die in a flaming hot pit of lava where you get raped in the rear end daily", would you be a snowflake for getting upset?
Look, I understand the sentiment that peoples personal lives should not be controlled by your employer. I have a cousin who got in trouble for very very light hearted banter with a friend because that "friend" reported him to their schools principle. But being repeatedly called a racial slur and being set a video of a chicken being raped is pretty good grounds for firing. Isn't having sex with chickens illegal???? Why are we all glossing over the chicken.

ewt340 · Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:25 am

speedbird52 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
KingOrGod wrote:

Bingo. What basically happened: I'm going to go with this because it's great, until it fits my agenda about playing the race card. And poof. Another snowflake born.

FYI, some of the biggest racists I know are not white people either. Some of them others are, but racism isn't only white people y'all know, right?

Yeah, White people can't be racist. This is just some Marxist Propaganda at best. Oh and the earth is flat + Vacination lead to homesuality and Autoimune disease that make Virgin women pregnant 2000 years ago that lead to people getting hang on cross or something. I don't know.

But seriously though. The only "White" people who said "not all white people are racist" always ended being a racist person.
Of course not all people are racist. That's just logical. The fact that some people have to pointed out that entire ethnic group is not racist is hella weird.

Back to the topic. The Racism AND Bestiality are double combo for termination. Like really? you want to argue with that?

I cannot understand how not wanting to be called a n***** makes someone a snowflake. If I walked up to you, and said: "Hey, f*** you you f***** piece of s****, I f***** hate you, go die in a flaming hot pit of lava where you get raped in the rear end daily", would you be a snowflake for getting upset?
Look, I understand the sentiment that peoples personal lives should not be controlled by your employer. I have a cousin who got in trouble for very very light hearted banter with a friend because that "friend" reported him to their schools principle. But being repeatedly called a racial slur and being set a video of a chicken being raped is pretty good grounds for firing. Isn't having sex with chickens illegal???? Why are we all glossing over the chicken.

PSSSTTT! Don't use common sense. They gonna called you a Communist! Keep quiet and watch chicken porn instead.

But seriously though. I don't understand why any people want to trust their life in the hand of people who make a really bad life decision knowing the exact consequences they gonna get after doing the Sh*t they done. It's not like they don't know what they are doing are bad.

And the fact that the Indian guy came up with an excuse of "I'm trying to fit in". Which mean that he is DUMB enough to think that the excuse might work. Which also equals stupidity. Which mean that he is not fit to think logically enough to become a pilot.

Besides, I'm pretty sure Possession of pornographic images portraying, "in an explicit and realistic way, … a person performing an act of intercourse or oral sex with an animal (whether dead or alive)" was outlawed by the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (c. 4)

So, they actually done something ILLEGAL according to the Law. and the UK have laws regarding hate speech as well.

SheikhDjibouti · Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:51 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
I cannot understand how not wanting to be called a n***** makes someone a snowflake. If I walked up to you, and said: "Hey, f*** you you f***** piece of s****, I f***** hate you, go die in a flaming hot pit of lava where you get raped in the rear end daily", would you be a snowflake for getting upset?

And you see both forms of address as just the same?
The first example may or may not be intended as an insult; it could be a friendly salute albeit using a word that is not PC.
The other is very difficult to read as anything other than vitriol and pure hatred.
And you see them as equivalents. Really?

Two blokes meet in a bar (it has to be blokes; this isn't typically a girlie thing)
Bloke A; "What time do you call this, you lazy barsteward?
Bloke B; "Meh, I got held up at work, f**kface"
Bloke A; "So, what are you drinking then?"

Context and amiable delivery counts for far more than the actual words used. The above is dialogue between two people who are clearly friends.
Much in the manner of "Derek and Clive" (Peter Cook and Dudley Moore). Although to be fair, their friendship eventually went off the rails, so....meh

Funnily enough, a petrol station attendant was fired from his job simply for owning a copy of the album "Derek and Clive Come Again"
Peter Cook even testified at the man's industrial tribunal. How's that for an ironic parallel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_and ... Come_Again

Yes, these pilots (supposedly intelligent men) were incredibly stupid to use the N-word in e-mails, and for that alone they should suffer.
It's just a pity we cannot read any of the responses from Mr Patel to get a feel for the bigger picture.

I suspect that Manish Patel accepted this crude "bloke-speak" for as long as it benefitted him to be part of their select group.
He wasn't a poor downtrodden junior FA. As a Captain with experience, surely he was able to assert his views if required.
And indeed the primary route for any complaint would have been through his union; remember these were private e-mails between Union reps, and as such, it is the Union (BALPA) who should be taking the lead on this, not BA.
Historically it has been Trade Unions who advanced the cause of oppressed minorities, and fought racism. In this case, they are strangely silent.
Perhaps they know something we don't?

speedbird52 wrote:
... and being set a video of a chicken being raped is pretty good grounds for firing. Isn't having sex with chickens illegal???? Why are we all glossing over the chicken.

First rule - Chickens should be glazed, not glossed

What exactly do you have in your head with regards this pornographic image? I suspect it is quite literally, all in your head.
Having sex with chickens is indeed illegal - assuming they are live chickens
It's also going to be rather difficult on a purely technical basis - I should know; I've got three hens and a cockerel in the lounge as we speak.

On the other hand, having sex with an oven-ready chicken is gross, but not illegal.
Just make sure the chicken is well and truly plucked. :biggrin:

There are even devices available (for gentlemen) such as inflatable sheep, or - bless my soul - a silicon plastic chicken.

I would provide an image - but I fear what I have written in this post is already on the borderline for too many people, so I'll leave that to your imagination
Weird ? Absolutely
Illegal ? Not in my neighborhood
Perhaps this was more like the actual creature involved in the "pornographic image"?

Now if y'all excuse me, I'm heading off to the kitchen to stuff a bird.

(image thx to mommyhatescooking.com)

Lilienthal · Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:58 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

The first example may or may not be intended as an insult; it could be a friendly salute albeit using a word that is not PC.

While the comparison by Speedbird was indeed ridiculously over the top, the issue at hand is clearly not a "friendly salute". Please read the article in the opening post for a variety of examples from this case. And besides... middle aged BA pilots calling each other n***** like 14 year old school boys? come oooooon....

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

It's just a pity we cannot read any of the responses from Mr Patel to get a feel for the bigger picture.

I suspect that Manish Patel accepted this crude "bloke-speak" for as long as it benefitted him to be part of their select group.

What is far more likely is that Mr. Patel did endure that kind of behavior because he would have been ostracized back when he was still on the job. It was obviously bad enough that he quite that quite lucrative position at 46 years old...

Context matters, as you rightfully state. And the BA investigators must have had plenty of context when going through those e-mails and messages. It resulted in the suspension of five senior pilots...

And let's just be clear about stuffing animals. Sticking your d*** in a chicken is weird, no matter if it has a heartbeat or not. Maybe one of the pilots can use your "but it's not illegal if it's dead" argument in court. I'd actually pay money to watch that.

mham001 · Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:13 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Of course not all people are racist. That's just logical. The fact that some people have to pointed out that entire ethnic group is not racist is hella weird.

Actually, most EVERYBODY is racist deep down in some way, it just is not allowed to be openly discussed in our society. Nor did the poster quoted dismiss white racism.

When I hear Indians cry RACISM! (or any Asian) I have to laugh, they come from the most openly racist societies on earth. You as an outsider will not hear it. I have.

speedbird52 · Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:06 pm

mham001 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Of course not all people are racist. That's just logical. The fact that some people have to pointed out that entire ethnic group is not racist is hella weird.

Actually, most EVERYBODY is racist deep down in some way, it just is not allowed to be openly discussed in our society. Nor did the poster quoted dismiss white racism.

When I hear Indians cry RACISM! (or any Asian) I have to laugh, they come from the most openly racist societies on earth. You as an outsider will not hear it. I have.

No it is allowed to be discussed. That is something I was taught pretty early on in high school and college. However, I was taught that we should all be aware of our inherit racist bias, and work against it. You seem to be arguing that it is okay to be racist.

ewt340 · Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:36 pm

mham001 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Of course not all people are racist. That's just logical. The fact that some people have to pointed out that entire ethnic group is not racist is hella weird.

Actually, most EVERYBODY is racist deep down in some way, it just is not allowed to be openly discussed in our society. Nor did the poster quoted dismiss white racism.

When I hear Indians cry RACISM! (or any Asian) I have to laugh, they come from the most openly racist societies on earth. You as an outsider will not hear it. I have.

Thank You for making me realize how racist I am. Now God have give me the right to called black people the N word. Hallelujah!!!

caliboy93 · Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:45 pm

No place for racism especially in the airline industry, where the mission is to connect the world and bring people closer together through air travel. Especially not one with the global reach of BA.

sierrakilo44 · Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:35 am

caliboy93 wrote:
No place for racism especially in the airline industry, where the mission is to connect the world and bring people closer together through air travel. Especially not one with the global reach of BA.

That should be the mission of an airline, but it's been a little different behind the flight deck door, or at least it was up until a decade or two ago. Flight deck crew in certain airlines were historically overwhelmingly male, white, conservative, ex military, privately educated and from upper middle class backgrounds. And they tend to only socialise within those groups, leading to some very narrow world views. It is changing, but there are some old school attitudes that exist under the surface, especially in a legacy carrier like BA.

It's still frustrating speaking to members of the general public, or young people who are interested in Aviation but feel they cannot pursue this career because they don't come from where the historical stereotypes say a pilot should come from, or because they don't fit in those groups or feel as if they will be demeaned if they do make it as a pilot. A pilot for one of the world's most respected airlines being repeatedly called the "n word" doesn't help.

ewt340 · Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:25 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
No place for racism especially in the airline industry, where the mission is to connect the world and bring people closer together through air travel. Especially not one with the global reach of BA.

That should be the mission of an airline, but it's been a little different behind the flight deck door, or at least it was up until a decade or two ago. Flight deck crew in certain airlines were historically overwhelmingly male, white, conservative, ex military, privately educated and from upper middle class backgrounds. And they tend to only socialise within those groups, leading to some very narrow world views. It is changing, but there are some old school attitudes that exist under the surface, especially in a legacy carrier like BA.

It's still frustrating speaking to members of the general public, or young people who are interested in Aviation but feel they cannot pursue this career because they don't come from where the historical stereotypes say a pilot should come from, or because they don't fit in those groups or feel as if they will be demeaned if they do make it as a pilot. A pilot for one of the world's most respected airlines being repeatedly called the "n word" doesn't help.

Well that situation tend to fit the western market. In the east they tend to be old fat pilot from their own country who used meth before take off and have sex with the FA during the flight.

Anyway, at least sharing chicken porn is illegal in the UK. So their actions are actually Illegal, so BA have this leverage towards them.

WIederling · Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:48 am

ewt340 wrote:
Anyway, at least sharing chicken porn is illegal in the UK.

Just Bestiality ( with life animals ) or does it reach further into Necrophilia ?

BA777FO · Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:35 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Historically it has been Trade Unions who advanced the cause of oppressed minorities, and fought racism. In this case, they are strangely silent.
Perhaps they know something we don't?

It's part of an ongoing litigation case - they cannot comment on it.

Bongodog49 · Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:44 am

yodobashi wrote:
Page 2 of this thread and nobody has yet pointed out that this article is published by the Daily Mail, therefore readers should exercise caution and take everything with a pinch of salt. The Daily Mail was/is a major contributing party to the mess the U.K. is currently enduring apropos 'Brexit'!

Ah the ever present cry of the left, its all lies if its in the Daily Mail. As you say, over 50 posts and you are the first person to make a suggestion that the story might be false, that may say more about your general viewpoint than anyone elses. You even have to bring Brexit into a thread about racism and staff bullying

SheikhDjibouti · Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:39 pm

Lilienthal wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
The first example may or may not be intended as an insult; it could be a friendly salute albeit using a word that is not PC.
While the comparison by Speedbird was indeed ridiculously over the top, the issue at hand is clearly not a "friendly salute". Please read the article in the opening post for a variety of examples from this case.

I did read the article, and here are some of those instances;

In one, sent in November 2012 as union reps organised a Christmas pub lunch, Captain O’Neal asked: ‘What food you want n****?’

So, is that designed primarily as an insult?
Or is he asking a friend what food he would prefer at an event where a group of friends will be sitting down together and sharing banter whilst off-duty?

In another, from September 2012, he asked Captain Patel: ‘U on skype n****?’

So, is that an insult?
Or is he asking if his friend is online so they can have an amicable chat?

See, I did read the original article. I seems as if I need to ask that you do the same.

Lilienthal wrote:
[ And besides... middle aged BA pilots calling each other n***** like 14 year old school boys? come oooooon....

Brace yourself - I'm going to do something most unexpected and actually agree with you on that point. :lol:

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
It's just a pity we cannot read any of the responses from Mr Patel to get a feel for the bigger picture.
I suspect that Manish Patel accepted this crude "bloke-speak" for as long as it benefitted him to be part of their select group.

Lilienthal wrote:
What is far more likely is that Mr. Patel did endure that kind of behavior because he would have been ostracized back when he was still on the job. It was obviously bad enough that he quite that quite lucrative position at 46 years old...

Excuse me - point of order. The group he was so keen to join was a group of BALPA Trade Union reps. Unless things are very different at BA, he could resign that Union position for any reason he wanted, including the perfectly reasonable wish to spend more time doing his actual job with BA flying aeroplanes.
I should know; I've been there myself.
Like Mr Patel, I was also forced to take part in ludicrous language and strange behavior in order to satisfy my union colleagues.
For instance we couldn't have a "chairman", even when that position was filled by a man.
We also sponsored coffee-picking "holidays" in Cuba, in order to subvert US sanctions.
I should be suing the Union for the emotional trauma they caused back then. :rotfl:

I do believe this aspect (the Union angle) has been overlooked by many, not just yourself. Mr Patel did not have to endure it.
Whether he could live with himself as a BA pilot, knowing that this was probably going on behind the scenes, is another matter.
If he was worried about being ostracized, he could have anonymously tipped off BALPA.
Instead, he took a more public approach, because primarily what he wants is $$$compensation. Justice is an afterthought.

Lilienthal wrote:
And let's just be clear about stuffing animals. Sticking your d*** in a chicken is weird, no matter if it has a heartbeat or not. Maybe one of the pilots can use your "but it's not illegal if it's dead" argument in court. I'd actually pay money to watch that.

Why would any of them ever need to use that argument in court?
If it's not illegal, then there will be no charge against them, and hence no requirement to defend their actions.
And besides, I suspect you failed to read (or comprehend) my comment that the chicken involved could easily be a plastic facsimile, manufactured for the precise purpose of - basically what was shown in the picture (or video) they shared.

There are other novelty masturbation devices on the market, but then the joke wouldn't have had the same punchline.
For instance the plastic inflatable sheep is only relevant if you belong to another racial minority, and your name is "Taffy" Evans. :lol:

Unfortunately I cannot offer you a link to any pictures of these alternatives in use, because that would also constitute pornography and is against a.net rules.

Plus, if it ever got back to my employer, and was perhaps completely taken out of context, ....... :banghead:

Lilienthal · Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:37 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
I did read the article, and here are some of those instances;
In one, sent in November 2012 as union reps organised a Christmas pub lunch, Captain O’Neal asked: ‘What food you want n****?’
So, is that designed primarily as an insult?
Or is he asking a friend what food he would prefer at an event where a group of friends will be sitting down together and sharing banter whilst off-duty?

In another, from September 2012, he asked Captain Patel: ‘U on skype n****?’
So, is that an insult?
Or is he asking if his friend is online so they can have an amicable chat?

See, I did read the original article. I seems as if I need to ask that you do the same.

None of your examples show an indication of friendship, but extremely insulting language bubble-wrapped in "workplace-banter". And we all know what that's like... take it on the chin and come back twice as hard or call the other guy out and be labeled as some unfunny softie. It's not that hard to imagine the predicament Mr. Patel was in.

And... just a small side note... you conveniently left out other parts of the article, since they don't quite fit your point of view. Like:

He also alleges that he endured racist comments, including being called ‘P*** lad’ and ‘chai wallah’, as well as inappropriate jokes that he also worked as a taxi driver or ran a corner shop.

Nothing in that article indicates that they were actual friends. You just assume that because it fits your argument. It's not completely impossible, but extremely unlikely given the way all this is playing out, especially the immediate suspension of five senior pilots by BA. You're clinging to the unlikely and the illogical here.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
I should know; I've been there myself. [...]
Like Mr Patel, I was also forced to take part in ludicrous language and strange behavior in order to satisfy my union colleagues. [...]
I should be suing the Union for the emotional trauma they caused back then.

I understand your emotional and nostalgic connection to your time at the Union, but that experience is irrelevant for the case of Mr. Patel. In his case the colleagues crossed the border from banter to bullying and it's his right to take action against that. It's not the employee's job to endure the bullying, it's in the employers responsibility to prevent it.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
If he was worried about being ostracized, he could have anonymously tipped off BALPA. Instead, he took a more public approach, because primarily what he wants is $$$compensation. Justice is an afterthought.

Maybe a public approach to this is needed, judging by not only the prevalence of racist behavior and bullying at the work place, but also the ignorance and apologetic attitudes of the public (i.e. in this thread) towards this matter. An anonymous tip to BALPA could have solved this problem? Very funny...

Assuming that Mr. Patel just wants a payday is a classic way of discrediting people like him. If that's what it takes to expose the racists and bullies, so be it.

CitizenJustin · Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:03 pm

Pudelhund wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Pudelhund wrote:
The Indian pilot:

“It is understood that he admits sending offensive emails himself, but says he did so only to fit in. Last night Balpa said his claim is ‘strenuously denied and will be robustly defended’. “

I think he is just copping out. This is clearly just locker room talk and suddenly he is playing the race card.

You think he is playing the race card? There is never a time to use the N word or ever say racist comments to a fellow employee (or anyone). To say the minority pilot laughed back so he liked it or didn’t mind before is blaming the victim. In the end it shows a work culture that is racially charged. I would hope people would just say it is wrong, punish the pilots and let’s move on.

You can play this social justice lip service bit all day, but men everywhere in every workplace talk like this with each other, even more so about women. The only mistake the pilots made was putting it in writing in company emails. I also find it rich that an Indian of all people is now deeply concerned about racism. Indians are far more casual and nonchalant about racial prejudice than English or American workplaces for that matter. He is just playing the cards he will know will get him ahead.

No one talks like that where I work now or at any previous jobs. The type of vulgar, brutish mentality you’ve normalized isn’t as common as you’d like to think. If behaving like a decent, civilized, intelligent human being means I’m PC, then I’m proudly PC.

mham001 · Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:55 am

speedbird52 wrote:
No it is allowed to be discussed. That is something I was taught pretty early on in high school and college. However, I was taught that we should all be aware of our inherit racist bias, and work against it. You seem to be arguing that it is okay to be racist.

I said no such thing, I just made the statement that ALL people have some racist feelings, whether they want to admit it publicly or not.

And no, it is not generally allowed to be discussed by whites in the US, anything and everything they say will be turned around and they will be shouted at and labelled. Words and feelings will be inserted into their mouths, just as you have done here, and the discussion will end with that first scream of RACIST! It is all too common, it is routine right here in this forum. I could give you my experiences growing up in a poor black neighborhood or living in areas 5% white and 70% immigrant but If I discuss that frankly, liberals here have conniptions. How can a white boy say that, he's RACIST!

Well, I am admitting I can have some negative thoughts about certain people, not necessarily the color of their skin, but their culture. If I say Mexican/Hispanic immigrants do not stress education, I would be considered RACIST! But they don't. This can be easily seen in the test scores, graduation rates, etc. and I have seen it up close and personal, where schools 5 miles away with strong immigrant Asian populations kick everybodies butt and the Mexican-dominated schools by 3-400%. I really do believe that there are superior cultural attributes and they are associated by race, whether anybody wants to admit it or not. So in a way, I believe there are superior races, except I don't believe my own is the superior. I am also in favor of our immigration policies reflecting that.

I can write that here without interruption but if I were to say that in public, which is backed up with overwhelming data, I would be pilloried and shut down. and you know it.

aviationaware · Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:12 am

gunnerman wrote:
another captain who is also a magistrate admitted sending a pornographic image of a man having sex with a chicken to five other union reps.

Why would anyone do that? How did he even find that picture? What orifice in a chicken is large enough to have sex with? So many questions.

speedbird52 · Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:31 am

mham001 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
No it is allowed to be discussed. That is something I was taught pretty early on in high school and college. However, I was taught that we should all be aware of our inherit racist bias, and work against it. You seem to be arguing that it is okay to be racist.

I said no such thing, I just made the statement that ALL people have some racist feelings, whether they want to admit it publicly or not.

And no, it is not generally allowed to be discussed by whites in the US, anything and everything they say will be turned around and they will be shouted at and labelled. Words and feelings will be inserted into their mouths, just as you have done here, and the discussion will end with that first scream of RACIST! It is all too common, it is routine right here in this forum. I could give you my experiences growing up in a poor black neighborhood or living in areas 5% white and 70% immigrant but If I discuss that frankly, liberals here have conniptions. How can a white boy say that, he's RACIST!

Well, I am admitting I can have some negative thoughts about certain people, not necessarily the color of their skin, but their culture. If I say Mexican/Hispanic immigrants do not stress education, I would be considered RACIST! But they don't. This can be easily seen in the test scores, graduation rates, etc. and I have seen it up close and personal, where schools 5 miles away with strong immigrant Asian populations kick everybodies butt and the Mexican-dominated schools by 3-400%. I really do believe that there are superior cultural attributes and they are associated by race, whether anybody wants to admit it or not. So in a way, I believe there are superior races, except I don't believe my own is the superior. I am also in favor of our immigration policies reflecting that.

I can write that here without interruption but if I were to say that in public, which is backed up with overwhelming data, I would be pilloried and shut down. and you know it.

Most of the people around me are White and they have discussed this many times without any negative consequence. I live in one of the most liberal cities in the country. You seem to be talking from a place of anger instead of a place of logic. If feeling like a victim makes you happy, keep doing your thing buddy. Saying that certain cultures have attributes that are superior and that they HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH RACE, is objectively racist.

gunnerman · Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:15 am

aviationaware wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
another captain who is also a magistrate admitted sending a pornographic image of a man having sex with a chicken to five other union reps.

Why would anyone do that? How did he even find that picture? What orifice in a chicken is large enough to have sex with? So many questions.

In the UK the ownership, sale and distribution of zoophilic pornography as well as zoosexual activity are criminal offences. You'd think that a magistrate would never be involved in anything like this. And if he were prosecuted and found guilty, the sentence could result in the pilot having his airside access revoked (so won't be able to fly) and he could also be removed as a magistrate.

BA777FO · Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:54 am

Lilienthal wrote:
And... just a small side note... you conveniently left out other parts of the article, since they don't quite fit your point of view. Like:

He also alleges that he endured racist comments, including being called ‘P*** lad’ and ‘chai wallah’, as well as inappropriate jokes that he also worked as a taxi driver or ran a corner shop.

Nothing in that article indicates that they were actual friends. You just assume that because it fits your argument. It's not completely impossible, but extremely unlikely given the way all this is playing out, especially the immediate suspension of five senior pilots by BA. You're clinging to the unlikely and the illogical here.

What is also not included is the content of captain Patel's emails. Nothing makes it appropriate, but there is a lot that happened that you won't get from the Daily Mail article. First, the number of pilots suspended is not five, it's a lower figure. Secondly, captain Patel stepped down from Balpa as a CC rep about a year or so ago, citing frustrations that the CC was ruled a bit like a dictatorship and other points of view were shut down (not just his views but others too). He has sat on these emails for 6 years and now decides to go public when Balpa has just registered a failure to agree on the 2019 pay deal. Interesting timing, but he's using all BA pilots as collaterol in this.

In his case the colleagues crossed the border from banter to bullying and it's his right to take action against that. It's not the employee's job to endure the bullying, it's in the employers responsibility to prevent it.

The language used was inappropriate and unacceptable. I have no doubts the airline will take appropriate action after a thorough investigation and disciplinary process.

An anonymous tip to BALPA could have solved this problem? Very funny...

You clearly have no knowledge of the many methods of reporting bullying and/or harrassment to either the airline or Balpa - it's always taken extremely seriously. I have every faith that if I ever were to report something I would be fully supported.

Assuming that Mr. Patel just wants a payday is a classic way of discrediting people like him. If that's what it takes to expose the racists and bullies, so be it.

He did sue Unite after his address details were put on their cabin crew forum and refused to take it down after he was harrassed after being a leading figure in the VCC program during the cabin crew strike in ~2010 - he reportedly received an out of court settlement of six figures. He was right on that occassion - when all the facts of this issue come out he may well be right again - but we don't have all of the facts. A fair and thorough process will take place and we should just wait for the outcome. There isn't much more to say besides the fact that the airline will not tolerate bullying or harrassment at all.

ewt340 · Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:47 am

mham001 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
No it is allowed to be discussed. That is something I was taught pretty early on in high school and college. However, I was taught that we should all be aware of our inherit racist bias, and work against it. You seem to be arguing that it is okay to be racist.

I said no such thing, I just made the statement that ALL people have some racist feelings, whether they want to admit it publicly or not.

And no, it is not generally allowed to be discussed by whites in the US, anything and everything they say will be turned around and they will be shouted at and labelled. Words and feelings will be inserted into their mouths, just as you have done here, and the discussion will end with that first scream of RACIST! It is all too common, it is routine right here in this forum. I could give you my experiences growing up in a poor black neighborhood or living in areas 5% white and 70% immigrant but If I discuss that frankly, liberals here have conniptions. How can a white boy say that, he's RACIST!

Well, I am admitting I can have some negative thoughts about certain people, not necessarily the color of their skin, but their culture. If I say Mexican/Hispanic immigrants do not stress education, I would be considered RACIST! But they don't. This can be easily seen in the test scores, graduation rates, etc. and I have seen it up close and personal, where schools 5 miles away with strong immigrant Asian populations kick everybodies butt and the Mexican-dominated schools by 3-400%. I really do believe that there are superior cultural attributes and they are associated by race, whether anybody wants to admit it or not. So in a way, I believe there are superior races, except I don't believe my own is the superior. I am also in favor of our immigration policies reflecting that.

I can write that here without interruption but if I were to say that in public, which is backed up with overwhelming data, I would be pilloried and shut down. and you know it.

Uhmm, they didn't call you racist for being white. They called you racist for actually being and believed in racist ideology..... :banghead:

SheikhDjibouti · Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:01 pm

gunnerman wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
another captain who is also a magistrate admitted sending a pornographic image of a man having sex with a chicken to five other union reps.

Why would anyone do that? How did he even find that picture? What orifice in a chicken is large enough to have sex with? So many questions.

In the UK the ownership, sale and distribution of zoophilic pornography as well as zoosexual activity are criminal offences. You'd think that a magistrate would never be involved in anything like this. And if he were prosecuted and found guilty, the sentence could result in the pilot having his airside access revoked (so won't be able to fly) and he could also be removed as a magistrate.

Have you ever heard of "Occam's Razor"?

When presented with competing hypotheses to solve a problem, one should select the solution with the fewest assumptions

I have presented my answer to this problem twice, possibly three times in various posts above.

Assumption #1; We haven't got the full story.
I think I'm on safe ground there....

Assumption #2; The Daily Mail (along with most forms of media) might have been economical with the truth if it sells more copy
Again, a bit of a no-brainer.

Assumption #3; The word "image" can be interpreted a number of different ways.
Safe ground again because any dictionary will back me up on this one.

Unfortunately the image that most of you have in your heads is that this pornographic image is a genuine photograph.
Except it doesn't say that.
To wit, here follows an image of a me repeatedly banging my head against a solid brick wall. :banghead:

I cannot state with any certainty that my interpretation is right, but suddenly ALL of your questions are answered.
Occam's Razor for the win!

You're welcome. :wave:

speedbird52 · Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:06 pm

ewt340 wrote:
mham001 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
No it is allowed to be discussed. That is something I was taught pretty early on in high school and college. However, I was taught that we should all be aware of our inherit racist bias, and work against it. You seem to be arguing that it is okay to be racist.

I said no such thing, I just made the statement that ALL people have some racist feelings, whether they want to admit it publicly or not.

And no, it is not generally allowed to be discussed by whites in the US, anything and everything they say will be turned around and they will be shouted at and labelled. Words and feelings will be inserted into their mouths, just as you have done here, and the discussion will end with that first scream of RACIST! It is all too common, it is routine right here in this forum. I could give you my experiences growing up in a poor black neighborhood or living in areas 5% white and 70% immigrant but If I discuss that frankly, liberals here have conniptions. How can a white boy say that, he's RACIST!

Well, I am admitting I can have some negative thoughts about certain people, not necessarily the color of their skin, but their culture. If I say Mexican/Hispanic immigrants do not stress education, I would be considered RACIST! But they don't. This can be easily seen in the test scores, graduation rates, etc. and I have seen it up close and personal, where schools 5 miles away with strong immigrant Asian populations kick everybodies butt and the Mexican-dominated schools by 3-400%. I really do believe that there are superior cultural attributes and they are associated by race, whether anybody wants to admit it or not. So in a way, I believe there are superior races, except I don't believe my own is the superior. I am also in favor of our immigration policies reflecting that.

I can write that here without interruption but if I were to say that in public, which is backed up with overwhelming data, I would be pilloried and shut down. and you know it.

Uhmm, they didn't call you racist for being white. They called you racist for actually being and believed in racist ideology.....

I always wonder why people feel they have the right to criticize cultures they know nothing about. I am ethnically Pakistani but I am an American. Given that I spent my entire life in America, I have every right to criticize mainstream American culture, and to some extent Pakistani culture. I have no right to criticize Chinese culture, or Black culture for example

mham001 · Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:38 pm

ewt340 wrote:
[

Uhmm, they didn't call you racist for being white. They called you racist for actually being and believed in racist ideology.....

But maybe you can explain why it is that certain cultures can kick butt and succeed while others, with the same limitations falter in US society? How exactly can you separate the FACT that an Asian immigrant is going to rise above EVERYBODY in education, income, crime rates, drugs/alcohol, etc, etc, etc while a Hispanic will be lucky to learn English and stay out of a gang? And then make the case that the culture is not related to race? You can't.

I see this everyday in my daughters schools. One school a proclaimed "Baccalaureate", 75% Hispanic, mixed immigrant/domestic, scores 2 while 5 miles away, schools 70% Asian, heavily fresh imports, mostly Vietnamese and Chinese score 9? You can see this further as the grades progress, the schools merge larger and the scores drop progressively with more Hispanics. It is all down to culture, parents of one group expect education and success. The other does not. So, which would you rather have? and how would you differentiate that besides race? I am not going include blacks, there are some special needs there but what is the excuse that one group of immigrants cannot succeed while others do?

speedbird52 wrote:
Most of the people around me are White and they have discussed this many times without any negative consequence. I live in one of the most liberal cities in the country. You seem to be talking from a place of anger instead of a place of logic. If feeling like a victim makes you happy, keep doing your thing buddy. Saying that certain cultures have attributes that are superior and that they HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH RACE, is objectively racist.

Ha, that's pretty funny. So you live in a white world and there is no problem discussing race and so it is and so it shall be. Laughable. Have you ever listened to Asians discussing race among themselves (for example). No problem for them either, probably the most racist cultures on earth, they look down on everybody but you won't hear that in mixed company, you have to live with them to know that.

I am asking you the same question. How do you possibly differentiate the obvious differences in cultures without race?

As for my so-called racism, I am one who has done the single most important thing a man can do to overcome racism, I intermarried. What have you done?

speedbird52 · Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:16 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Most of the people around me are White and they have discussed this many times without any negative consequence. I live in one of the most liberal cities in the country. You seem to be talking from a place of anger instead of a place of logic. If feeling like a victim makes you happy, keep doing your thing buddy. Saying that certain cultures have attributes that are superior and that they HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH RACE, is objectively racist.

Ha, that's pretty funny. So you live in a white world and there is no problem discussing race and so it is and so it shall be. Laughable. Have you ever listened to Asians discussing race among themselves (for example). No problem for them either, probably the most racist cultures on earth, they look down on everybody but you won't hear that in mixed company, you have to live with them to know that.

I am asking you the same question. How do you possibly differentiate the obvious differences in cultures without race?

As for my so-called racism, I am one who has done the single most important thing a man can do to overcome racism, I intermarried. What have you done?[/quote]
Make myself conscious of my own racism and do my best to control it rather than try to justify it by saying other people are racist too?

ewt340 · Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:32 pm

mham001 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
[

Uhmm, they didn't call you racist for being white. They called you racist for actually being and believed in racist ideology.....

But maybe you can explain why it is that certain cultures can kick butt and succeed while others, with the same limitations falter in US society? How exactly can you separate the FACT that an Asian immigrant is going to rise above EVERYBODY in education, income, crime rates, drugs/alcohol, etc, etc, etc while a Hispanic will be lucky to learn English and stay out of a gang? And then make the case that the culture is not related to race? You can't.

I see this everyday in my daughters schools. One school a proclaimed "Baccalaureate", 75% Hispanic, mixed immigrant/domestic, scores 2 while 5 miles away, schools 70% Asian, heavily fresh imports, mostly Vietnamese and Chinese score 9? You can see this further as the grades progress, the schools merge larger and the scores drop progressively with more Hispanics. It is all down to culture, parents of one group expect education and success. The other does not. So, which would you rather have? and how would you differentiate that besides race? I am not going include blacks, there are some special needs there but what is the excuse that one group of immigrants cannot succeed while others do?

1. Interesting fact. Many African Immigrants in the US tend to be more educated than any other immigrants and even US-born citizens. Interesting right? Must be their "horrible cultures".
https://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la ... story.html

2. You are describing Chinese and Vietnamese immigrants as goods by referring to them as "heavily fresh imports".

3. Your "example" which comes with no factual proofs or reference is extremely questionable.

4. Seems like you also brushed offer the possibility of how Wealth affect the quality of education for the populations.

Back to the topic. Of course the N-word wouldn't be much of problem for some people like you. You even encourage such behavior. But the main thing that most people tend to forget is the fact that this kind of behavior would resulted in lost businesses for BA which is a company that served people from every different ethnic background. Not firing them go would get BA into hot water, not just with the Liberals, but big chunks of the World Populations.

+ the fact that sharing a video with beastiality content in it and not reporting it the police is illegal. So they actually break the law. Which is the ground for termination.

ewt340 · Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:35 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Most of the people around me are White and they have discussed this many times without any negative consequence. I live in one of the most liberal cities in the country. You seem to be talking from a place of anger instead of a place of logic. If feeling like a victim makes you happy, keep doing your thing buddy. Saying that certain cultures have attributes that are superior and that they HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH RACE, is objectively racist.

Ha, that's pretty funny. So you live in a white world and there is no problem discussing race and so it is and so it shall be. Laughable. Have you ever listened to Asians discussing race among themselves (for example). No problem for them either, probably the most racist cultures on earth, they look down on everybody but you won't hear that in mixed company, you have to live with them to know that.

I am asking you the same question. How do you possibly differentiate the obvious differences in cultures without race?

As for my so-called racism, I am one who has done the single most important thing a man can do to overcome racism, I intermarried. What have you done?

Asians Immigrants here. I do listen to some Asians being racist. Tend to be Old or Conservatives, which is practically the same. Not a surprise that some of them still stuck in the 19th century. But it's known here in the US because we're supposed "Model Citizens" for all the immigrants. Join the hate wagon to be accepted.

You marrying an Asian women/men doesn't stop you from Being racist to Latinos or Blacks. And this alone indicated your lack of knowledge and education. Which is interesting. I know some part of the US have a really bad education system and lack of funding. But this is worse than I thought. And it affected White people too apparently.

speedbird52 · Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:02 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Most of the people around me are White and they have discussed this many times without any negative consequence. I live in one of the most liberal cities in the country. You seem to be talking from a place of anger instead of a place of logic. If feeling like a victim makes you happy, keep doing your thing buddy. Saying that certain cultures have attributes that are superior and that they HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH RACE, is objectively racist.

Ha, that's pretty funny. So you live in a white world and there is no problem discussing race and so it is and so it shall be. Laughable. Have you ever listened to Asians discussing race among themselves (for example). No problem for them either, probably the most racist cultures on earth, they look down on everybody but you won't hear that in mixed company, you have to live with them to know that.

I am asking you the same question. How do you possibly differentiate the obvious differences in cultures without race?

As for my so-called racism, I am one who has done the single most important thing a man can do to overcome racism, I intermarried. What have you done?

Make myself conscious of my own racism and do my best to control it rather than try to justify it by saying other people are racist too?[/quote]

DarkSnowyNight · Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:31 am

mham001 wrote:

As for my so-called racism, I am one who has done the single most important thing a man can do to overcome racism, I intermarried. What have you done?

And? That is worth nothing.

A slightly re-tooled "but I have black friends," will not exonerate anyone from being called out. If you're going to do or say racist things, you're going to be called one. Your bedfellows will not change this.

ewt340 · Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:16 am

speedbird52 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Most of the people around me are White and they have discussed this many times without any negative consequence. I live in one of the most liberal cities in the country. You seem to be talking from a place of anger instead of a place of logic. If feeling like a victim makes you happy, keep doing your thing buddy. Saying that certain cultures have attributes that are superior and that they HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH RACE, is objectively racist.

Ha, that's pretty funny. So you live in a white world and there is no problem discussing race and so it is and so it shall be. Laughable. Have you ever listened to Asians discussing race among themselves (for example). No problem for them either, probably the most racist cultures on earth, they look down on everybody but you won't hear that in mixed company, you have to live with them to know that.

I am asking you the same question. How do you possibly differentiate the obvious differences in cultures without race?

As for my so-called racism, I am one who has done the single most important thing a man can do to overcome racism, I intermarried. What have you done?

Make myself conscious of my own racism and do my best to control it rather than try to justify it by saying other people are racist too?

Clearly it's not working that well when we look at your recent comments. But listen, in aviation industry. We do numbers and planning, we don't rely on opinions, beliefs or coincident and unproven studies. Everybody could believe anything but doesn't mean it's true. Maybe you should try to use those formulas instead. Cause the outcome tend to be really different from what you tend to believe in.

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