As we all get older, start to retire, we all get just a wee bit bored! Mayday/Aircrash Investigation does not keep me entertained due to too little new content, Flightglobal, Av-Nut and the Plum (aehm, sorry, PPRUNE it is) will only partially fill the boaring new found freedom!

But then, wait for it, elderly esquires in the prime of their life discover Youtube!
Lot´s of stuff going on there! And with the utmost of respect for my many US based friends, I have some questions regarding this police chase YouTube threw at me for some entertainment. Is this SOP in gorgeous SeaTac?

Here´s the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUwfF0BDS9I

Having spent most of my life working in (Continental) Europe, I really wondered about a few things in this video!


is this really how it is, cops seem keen and act like hunters, just to get in on the action, totally disregard all rules because the ´blues n twos´ are on, just so/ in order to join the action finally after about 20 Minutes of running around with lights and sirens for no reason?


Love the reaction of the public, every car in the right lane pulls off the road as quick as they possibly can, getting out of the way, just because a cop is coming with blue lights on! Is this normal, and with no disrespect to law enforcement, is it not a bit OTT or are they all just scared of being hit by the vehicle being pursuid?

Why do I ask, well, working in Germany (I mention that first because... see below), Ireland, Belgium and the Netherlands in recent years, this chase in the Link appears really weird. Bit like a police state, some of the countries listed would call it entrapment and well, with some Euro Goggles on, the above link simply appears weird!


- Germany: Cop passes you on the Freeway/Motorway/Autobahn: of course you respect his blue lights, move over and let him pass. Then you work out the cop car is a 2.0L Diesel Passat, yet you are driving a BMW3.0L which is a wee bit quicker. You accelerate and the cop with the ´blues n two´s´ flashing will respectfully move out of the overtaking lane to let you repass!


- Ireland: Blue lights behind you, well, you make an effort to get out of his way. you will certainly not pull into the nearest driveway to totally clear the road!


- Belgium: well, in most cases 2 lane Freeways , you make an effort to get out of an emergency vehicles way when it comes up behind you, but mind the speedlimit, and if you are passing a truck, you will do that at 120KM and the copper will just have to wait until you have safely and securely executed your pass.

- Netherlands: blue lights behind you in a 100KMH/60MPH zone, you will respectfully stick to that 100KM, set your indicator to signal that you will move over, once you have passed that sod of a truck! And you will not exceed the speed limit because they do trajectory measuring (average speed between 2 points) and no matter what excuse you have) cops behind me with blue lights on...!!!!), you will pay a 500 Buck fine!

That is northern Europe in a nutshell, all most democratic, as a copper only has the same worth as us poor civilians (sorry, citizens), so it is all a bit more balanced to what I see in the video above!

And as youtube is so great, after watching the above link, I got 4 other suggestions to keep me entertained (forget hard landing issues of MD11F´s, I am now right into police pursuits). Most western European countries have a ´no pursuit unless imminent danger to life´ policy, a cop would certainly never endanger the public simply because of a bloody stolen car or speeding, public life is worth a lot more than sheet metal!


What gives, how come all of Seattle´s (public) pulls off the road the moment they see blues? And jokes aside, what justification is there for cops doing 20 miles breaking all road rules, totally endangering the public in doing so, just so they can get a hard-on by potentially joining a pursuit?


I love the US of A, but by gosh, some things are a wee bit weird over there!

Immediately pulling to the side of the road / getting out of the way is just the American way. I'm not certain there are laws to enforce it, perhaps in some jurisdictions, but it's just what we do. Particularly for emergency services like fire or ambulance.

Wasn't able to watch the video yet, but I would imagine there is a bit of context missing if they were driving at excessive speeds and endangering the public. Suspect likely has warrants of some sort.

trpmb6 wrote:

Immediately pulling to the side of the road / getting out of the way is just the American way. I'm not certain there are laws to enforce it, perhaps in some jurisdictions, but it's just what we do. Particularly for emergency services like fire or ambulance.

Wasn't able to watch the video yet, but I would imagine there is a bit of context missing if they were driving at excessive speeds and endangering the public. Suspect likely has warrants of some sort.

Potentially killing a family just for cashing in on a parking ticket ?

apropos: collision with a police car : any chance to claim your damages?

Wow that's a long video ! Nothing happens before 15 minutes, and even then it's pretty boring to watch, but indeed countless cops barreling down streets. And that crash could have easily involved people on the sidewalk.

Also, since you also have TV channels following such stuff live in the US, don't criminals get a hint it's a good time to commit some crimes, since all the cops around are chasing that one car ?

USA states have laws that require drivers to pull the cars to the side of the road, the shoulder or on a multi-lane road to the 'slow' lane to allow police, fire and medical first responders using their lights and sirens/horns to pass.
As to 'car chases' by USA police forces, there are too many of them and often for petty charges, but many times they are going after someone who's own or operated by someone who has committed a moving violation or a serious crime and needs to be apprehended.

Of course you pull over when you see lights in your mirror. How do you know they are not trying to pull you over for something.

But beyond that, it is not only the law but actually common courtesy to allow any emergency vehicle to pass unfettered. What if the police were trying to respond to YOUR emergency but you end up suffering because some dumbass wouldn't move over?

Oh yea, re:Nederlands, if ever there was "police-state" tactics, that example is prime.

trpmb6 wrote:

Immediately pulling to the side of the road / getting out of the way is just the American way. I'm not certain there are laws to enforce it, perhaps in some jurisdictions, but it's just what we do. Particularly for emergency services like fire or ambulance.

Wasn't able to watch the video yet, but I would imagine there is a bit of context missing if they were driving at excessive speeds and endangering the public. Suspect likely has warrants of some sort.

Oregon and (I think) Washington have the "move right for sirens and lights" law. I don't think they enforce it often, but on smaller roads, it could be seen as obstruction of justice.

High speed pursuits are not normal in the Pacific Northwest. This pursuit and crash were in Lakewood, which is where many "Washington" episodes of Cops were filmed, so that did not surprise me at all. After the crash, the suspect refused to surrender. S/he must have really done something terrible. Pierce County is not as restrictive as King County (Seattle) on many points. I am guessing something like mass shooting, bomb making, large quantities of drugs being trafficked and not a simple toll evasion on the 405 or The Narrows Bridge.

WIederling wrote:

trpmb6 wrote:

Immediately pulling to the side of the road / getting out of the way is just the American way. I'm not certain there are laws to enforce it, perhaps in some jurisdictions, but it's just what we do. Particularly for emergency services like fire or ambulance.

Wasn't able to watch the video yet, but I would imagine there is a bit of context missing if they were driving at excessive speeds and endangering the public. Suspect likely has warrants of some sort.

Potentially killing a family just for cashing in on a parking ticket ?

apropos: collision with a police car : any chance to claim your damages?

Wasn't a parking ticket. This was a carjacking so it was likely done at gunpoint. Not apprehending these criminals sends a message that to simply take one's vehicle by force without arrest/conviction/incarceration is considered sort of a 'game' on the street -- one without consequences if not pursued by police.

Only in California do they break into a show to televise a live police chase.

https://www.kmov.com/news/child-injured ... 88e1a.html
Sometimes it does happen in the US. Very sad story of a child's death on the way home from STL airport after his first plane ride and first time to the beach.

seb146 wrote:

This pursuit and crash were in Lakewood, which is where many "Washington" episodes of Cops were filmed, so that did not surprise me at all. After the crash, the suspect refused to surrender. S/he must have really done something terrible. Pierce County is not as restrictive as King County (Seattle) on many points. I am guessing something like mass shooting, bomb making, large quantities of drugs being trafficked and not a simple toll evasion on the 405 or The Narrows Bridge.

The chase wasn't in Lakewood. It was in and around the University of Washington, in NE Seattle. The perp had carjacked three vehicles at gunpoint and was shooting back at the pursuing patrol cars.

It didn't end well for him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xf2DLAf3hM

I don't know if all states have a law that compel a driver to yield the right-of-way, but I'd be surprised if they don't. Here in Kentucky the relevant statute is found in KRS 189.930. You must yield the right-of-way to any emergency vehicle properly using its emergency equipment.

As a former firefighter and apparatus operator, I wanted people to pull over and stop in the most expeditious and safest manner, so that I could determine the safest way to get past them. At an intersection, I want EVERYONE to stop, because no one knows where I'm going, but me.

Now, many jurisdictions have, and rightly so, limited the police department's ability to engage in high-speed pursuit. Here, the SOP allows for pursuit only when a violent felony is suspected. Further, the pursuit can be terminated by a supervising officer anytime they feel the risk to the public the pursuit generates out weighs the risk if the alleged felon escapes.

Thanks for all your comments guy, most interesting how things are done differently around the world. Appreciating these were bad guys, I just wonder about the police on this. There are a bunch of videos on this incident, the link I provided is just an example. Dashcam from other Police vehicles relating to this incident is much worse, Officers hyping each other up like they are on a hunting mission of sorts.
So thanks for all the feedback on procedures in regards to civilians giving way to emergency vehicles, but very little has come back on the excessive Police presence. Over 20 (Police) vehicles were involved in this chase, all of them running red lights, stop sign etc to ´join the action´ , even with the offending vehicle being nowhere near them. Is this not excessive? This is no game, public lives are at risk and I think it was all way over the top on the part of law enforcement, with what I as an ´armchair observer´ consider to be of severe risk to the general public. That was my main point, but I respect, opinion may differ on this!

FTMCPIUS wrote:

Wasn't a parking ticket. This was a carjacking so it was likely done at gunpoint. Not apprehending these criminals sends a message that to simply take one's vehicle by force without arrest/conviction/incarceration is considered sort of a 'game' on the street -- one without consequences if not pursued by police.

carjacking? nigh unknown here.

The method appears to create excess risk to those involved and bystanders as well. Not save.
What about some regular police legwork afterwards? OK, the obese have issues there.

cougar15 wrote:

Officers hyping each other up like they are on a hunting mission of sorts.

I didn't watch the video (50 mins?), but I've seen plenty of them. They are on a hunting mission. In this type of pursuit, the officers are constantly talking to each other, and at least one supervisor is monitoring the communications.

cougar15 wrote:

excessive Police presence. Over 20 (Police) vehicles were involved in this chase, all of them running red lights, stop sign etc to ´join the action´ , even with the offending vehicle being nowhere near them. Is this not excessive?

Not really. I don't know about Seattle, but around here, I know units will jump in as they hear how the pursuit is progressing. The general direction it's moving, how dangerous the fleeing suspect is acting, the nature of the alleged crime, etc. will all factor in on how many units will be allowed to join the pursuit.

Again, around here, a supervisor can call off the pursuit at any time s/he feels the danger is too great.

Another point, police officers are trained in high-speed driving. I went through the course, with annual re-certification. I believe the police re-certify every 6 months.

fr8mech wrote:

Not really. I don't know about Seattle, but around here, I know units will jump in as they hear how the pursuit is progressing.

The posse is a much bigger danger to the public than the perp.
And the method seems to not work as intended ( reduce car jackings.)

WIederling wrote:

The posse is a much bigger danger to the public than the perp.
And the method seems to not work as intended ( reduce car jackings.)

What makes you think it's supposed to stop carjackings? It's supposed to catch suspected criminals.

The existence of an effective police department is supposed to be proactive. The police themselves are reactive.

fr8mech wrote:

WIederling wrote:

The posse is a much bigger danger to the public than the perp.
And the method seems to not work as intended ( reduce car jackings.)

What makes you think it's supposed to stop carjackings? It's supposed to catch suspected criminals.

So the objective is to have more car jackings ( and similar ) to be able to catch more criminals?
Really?

fr8mech wrote:

The existence of an effective police department is supposed to be proactive. The police themselves are reactive.

"deterrence" of criminals is a big thing in the US going by poster comments.
( over the top "strong" reactions like here, death penalty, subhuman storage of perpetrators, three strikes, what ever.)

But it does not work as postulated. And escalating this methodology seems to work even less.

Here in Malaysia we will move to the side whenever we hear sirens, kind of like how it's done in the video. Doesn't matter if it's cops or ambulances or fire trucks, we're taught to move aside as much as possible to give way to the emergency vehicles. I'm surprised in Europe things happen so differently, especially in Germany!

On another note, watching the video I can't help but thinking that Seattle's got some nice neighbourhoods to drive in.

WIederling wrote:

So the objective is to have more car jackings ( and similar ) to be able to catch more criminals?
Really?

What do you imagine goes through the criminals' head? "Well, I would jack this car, but gosh darn-it, the police may chase me, so, I think I'll just go have a cigarette and a beer instead."

The objective of a pursuit, any pursuit, is to catch the suspected criminal. That's it. There is no deterrent affect. Other than the suspected felon is no longer able to commit any more felonies while in custody.

WIederling wrote:

But it does not work as postulated. And escalating this methodology seems to work even less.

Police are a reactive force. They show up AFTER a crime has been committed. It is not a common event that they witness a crime, and thus can prevent it from happening. They show up after-the-fact, investigate, pursue and arrest.

A functioning, effective police department, backed by a solid, consistent judicial system can be a deterrent to crime.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

I'm surprised in Europe things happen so differently, especially in Germany!
.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... nce+Sirens

Quite interesting to see the differences.

Ambulance on the Autobahn going with "Sonderrechte" is a bit of a special case.
I've never seen an Ambulance going much faster than ~120km/h.
Thus if you do not obstruct its progress you can overtake it
( Worst case is Ambulance coming up on a "cars waiting on reds lights" blocked crossing.
Some drivers really can't wrap their mind around "Sonderrechte" topping "reds lights".)

mailmover wrote:

seb146 wrote:

This pursuit and crash were in Lakewood, which is where many "Washington" episodes of Cops were filmed, so that did not surprise me at all. After the crash, the suspect refused to surrender. S/he must have really done something terrible. Pierce County is not as restrictive as King County (Seattle) on many points. I am guessing something like mass shooting, bomb making, large quantities of drugs being trafficked and not a simple toll evasion on the 405 or The Narrows Bridge.

The chase wasn't in Lakewood. It was in and around the University of Washington, in NE Seattle. The perp had carjacked three vehicles at gunpoint and was shooting back at the pursuing patrol cars.

It didn't end well for him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xf2DLAf3hM

I am talking about the one that just happened like two days ago. You are talking about one from four years ago.

Prolonged high speed police chases are absolutely not normal in the US. There are probably less than a dozen high speed chases across America each year that receive nationwide attention from the media. Seattle is no different.

Most of the time when a suspect runs from the police in a vehicle the pursuit only lasts for a few minutes or less. It's rare that anyone even attempts to run from the police in their vehicle in the first place in the US. Most people are smart enough to know that doing so will not end well for them.

Here in South Florida the police pulled over a vehicle that failed to yield to emergency vehicles and it was found that the driver was wanted for several serious felonies.

KentB27 wrote:

Prolonged high speed police chases are absolutely not normal in the US. There are probably less than a dozen high speed chases across America each year that receive nationwide attention from the media.

You absolutely sure 'bout that?
I suppose since you've wrapped it up with "prolonged", "high speed" and "receives nationwide media attention", you could be technically correct.
But "less than a dozen" per year as a general comment is some way off the mark.

USA Today wrote:

More than 5,000 bystanders and passengers have been killed in police car chases since 1979, and tens of thousands more were injured as officers repeatedly pursued drivers at high speeds and in hazardous conditions, often for minor infractions, a USA TODAY analysis shows.

Police across the USA chase tens of thousands of people each year -- usually for traffic violations or misdemeanors -- often causing drivers to speed away recklessly.

"Far more police vehicle chases occur each year than police shootings," the (Justice) Department said.

The number of chase-related deaths in 2013 was higher than the number in 1990 — 322 compared to 317.

Here are the ones that are definitely not prolonged, and presumably not especially high speed either;

USA Today wrote:

...most end quickly — 76% were over within five minutes, according to records of tens of thousands of chases in California

So that just leaves 24% that take a bit longer...

USA Today wrote:

California records of 63,500 chases from 2002 through 2014 show that:

More than 89% were for vehicle-code violations, including speeding, vehicle theft, reckless driving, and 4,898 instances of a missing license plate or an expired registration

Just 5% were an attempt to nab someone suspected of a violent crime, usually assault or robbery; 168 sought a known murder suspect

Nearly 1,000 were for safety violations that endangered a driver only, including 850 drivers not wearing a seat belt and 23 motorcycle riders not wearing a helmet

I've saved the best until last.

USA Today wrote:

In 90 instances, police chased someone for driving too slowly

I cannot think of a country in Europe where a Police Officer would try that; they could never go home again afterwards....

https://usatoday.com/story/news/2015/07 ... /30187827/

Our police cars don't have bull bars, if they're common in the US it's for a reason.

Aesma wrote:

Our police cars don't have bull bars, if they're common in the US it's for a reason.

Yup, our (EU) police officers would get stoned to death, if they used a bulbar to push a car around, perhaps into innocent oncoming traffic (UK being the exception, they love their TPAC procedures over there, which the Germans must love as it means they can sell lots of high priced new BMW bits! to repair all those ´Police Interceptors`!!)

cougar15 wrote:

Aesma wrote:

Our police cars don't have bull bars, if they're common in the US it's for a reason.

Yup, our (EU) police officers would get stoned to death, if they used a bulbar to push a car around, perhaps into innocent oncoming traffic (UK being the exception, they love their TPAC procedures over there, which the Germans must love as it means they can sell lots of high priced new BMW bits! to repair all those ´Police Interceptors`!!)

I found British police to be on the unfailingly friendly and patient side. afaics based on the different historic backstory.
( and they used to employ reasonably large persons that provided an air of authority from the get go.
Knew a guy here who was taken into the reestablished police force ( organized by the Brits in our region).
Got trained, got a uniform, got no gun. "You don't need one". True!
Some years later German police was rearmed as a badge of authority
and following the historic backtrace as bailiff of the state.

On the other hand I once watched a police Range Rover on the M20 cross over the middle divider ( just grass )
going for an oncoming car just moving over into the exit lane. That car stopped, tried to back up and then
the next motorist destined for that exit smashed into the sandwiched car.
Two passengers flying out of the windshield framing. Good show why regular rule breaking pursuits are unacceptably dangerous.

WIederling wrote:

I found British police to be on the unfailingly friendly and patient side.

Me too; I've talked my way out of numerous speeding tickets with British Police, and even got away after a high speed chase thru' Manchester where I skipped at least two red lights, hoping that the Police car behind me would collect a late-night bus and abort the pursuit.
(I was young, and very very foolish.)
The copper was presumably expecting to find a hard-case criminal, or at the very least discover that the bike I was on was stolen.
In the event he found himself talking to a polite and respectful young man, with cute blond hair, an angelic smile, and my paperwork alles in ordnung
I guess he couldn't see any reason to ticket me with at least seven different highway infringements....

Since then I've been equally fortunate...
…. except when caught by speed cameras. They don't have any souls, damn them!

WIederling wrote:

On the other hand I once watched a police Range Rover on the M20 cross over the middle divider ( just grass )
going for an oncoming car just moving over into the exit lane. That car stopped, tried to back up and then
the next motorist destined for that exit smashed into the sandwiched car.
Two passengers flying out of the windshield framing.

No seatbelts? No air bags? Just grass in the central median strip?
How old was that video? Was it in black & white, with subtitles in latin?

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

Me wrote:

Two passengers flying out of the windshield framing.

No seatbelts? No air bags? Just grass in the central median strip?
How old was that video? Was it in black & white, with subtitles in latin?

Nah, 3 days later.

Summer of 1975. aged 17
I was traveling round Britain on a Honda Dax going by the tankful ( ~~100 km) from Youth Hostel to Youth Hostel.
( I still have that excessively stamped Hosteling Card around )))))))))