Airliners.net

https://www.wral.com/30-people-detained ... /18171195/

"The operation was conducted at Bear Creek Arsenal, a gun manufacturing company in Sanford, and was the result of an ongoing investigation that dealt with identity theft and fraud, authorities said.

Bear Creek issued the following statement:

Today there were several employees who were detained by law enforcement. This is the result of an investigation conducted by Homeland Security into employment that was obtained by either ID theft or fraudulent information."

1.So 30 folks employed at a Gun Manufacturer for Fraudulent employment. They falsified records, and technically the company is not at fault, but the info on the company says they have 11-50 employees. so who are we kidding about company not knowing.

2. The plant makes AR-15's
3. The illegal immigrants had state and federal Income and FICA taxes taken out of their paychecks.

Interesting collision of illegal immigration and manufacturing.

Who all thinks the company should get off free? There is a very high level of culpability here.

Question is if they utilized e-verify or not.

But we've had this discussion many times before. I think you know my opinion on the matter. E-verify should be mandatory and those not utilizing it should face stiff penalties.

casinterest wrote:

Who all thinks the company should get off free? There is a very high level of culpability here.

The article you listed indicated the company followed the letter of the law and there is no culpability.
Did you not read it?

You just proved the point that illegals can and do use illegal means of identity theft.

While they are paying SS and FICA with the fake SS# you can guess they are claiming maximum dependents to keep from paying taxes or having to file taxes with IRS.
Or
Depending on the Validity of the SS# then they can file for EIC and receive the $6314.00 free check up to $49,000.00 of income for 3 or more dependents.

Okie

Okie wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Who all thinks the company should get off free? There is a very high level of culpability here.

The article you listed indicated the company followed the letter of the law and there is no culpability.
Did you not read it?

You just proved the point that illegals can and do use illegal means of identity theft.

While they are paying SS and FICA with the fake SS# you can guess they are claiming maximum dependents to keep from paying taxes or having to file taxes with IRS.
Or
Depending on the Validity of the SS# then they can file for EIC and receive the $6314.00 free check up to $49,000.00 of income for 3 or more dependents.

Okie

Those fine upstanding undocumented immigrants, so deserving of being in the US, wouldn’t think of doing that, would they? Oh, by the way, isn’t the government’s job to keep illegals out? Maybe using a wall.

GF

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Okie wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Who all thinks the company should get off free? There is a very high level of culpability here.

The article you listed indicated the company followed the letter of the law and there is no culpability.
Did you not read it?

You just proved the point that illegals can and do use illegal means of identity theft.

While they are paying SS and FICA with the fake SS# you can guess they are claiming maximum dependents to keep from paying taxes or having to file taxes with IRS.
Or
Depending on the Validity of the SS# then they can file for EIC and receive the $6314.00 free check up to $49,000.00 of income for 3 or more dependents.

Okie

Those fine upstanding undocumented immigrants, so deserving of being in the US, wouldn’t think of doing that, would they? Oh, by the way, isn’t the government’s job to keep illegals out? Maybe using a wall.



GF

Would a wall have stopped them if they were here legally to start with? Or if the employers don't care?
Why didn't the manufacturer use e-verify?

Seems to me the company should get a fine for not properly vetting their employees.

casinterest wrote:

Seems to me the company should get a fine for not properly vetting their employees.

Just out of curiosity, would you feel the same way if the employer was a hospital? A school? Landscaper? Nursing home? How about a temp agency?

casinterest wrote:

Why didn't the manufacturer use e-verify?

Probably, because it's not mandatory. It really should be mandatory. I mean, it's been around, in some form or another, since 1996.

If it were mandatory, then the employer, any employer, should be held liable. So, how do you hold the employer responsible if it's not mandatory? Unless, of course, it can be proved that the employer knew its employees were illegal. But, in this case, it appears they didn't.

The company said that Homeland Security confirmed Bear Creek's Human Resource Department "complied with all laws, rules and regulations" in their hiring practices.

Personally, I think there should be federal legislation that makes E-Verify mandatory.

And, what happens if E-Verify is mandatory and in use, but the illegal immigrants were able to scam the system and use fraudulent or stolen (ID theft) numbers? In your world, is the employer still culpable?

***Edit***

Just a little add-on: Wikipedia says that E-Verify is mandatory in NC, depending on size of employer and type of employee. So, if that's the case AND "Bear Creek's Human Resource Department 'complied with all laws, rules and regulations' in their hiring practices", who is at fault?

Okie wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Who all thinks the company should get off free? There is a very high level of culpability here.

The article you listed indicated the company followed the letter of the law and there is no culpability.
Did you not read it?

You just proved the point that illegals can and do use illegal means of identity theft.

While they are paying SS and FICA with the fake SS# you can guess they are claiming maximum dependents to keep from paying taxes or having to file taxes with IRS.
Or
Depending on the Validity of the SS# then they can file for EIC and receive the $6314.00 free check up to $49,000.00 of income for 3 or more dependents.

Okie

Wow that’s a generous reading, Okie. The person who said they were fully compliant was the company spokesperson. ICE didn’t say a damned thing. Did you not read the article? But you probably take the Huckabeast at her word, too. (Very sad! What a disgrace!)

A full 60% of a company’s employees, likely, what, 80% or more of production employees, are undocumented and that’s a coincidence?

What an unlucky employer.

jetero wrote:

Okie wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Who all thinks the company should get off free? There is a very high level of culpability here.

The article you listed indicated the company followed the letter of the law and there is no culpability.
Did you not read it?

You just proved the point that illegals can and do use illegal means of identity theft.

While they are paying SS and FICA with the fake SS# you can guess they are claiming maximum dependents to keep from paying taxes or having to file taxes with IRS.
Or
Depending on the Validity of the SS# then they can file for EIC and receive the $6314.00 free check up to $49,000.00 of income for 3 or more dependents.

Okie

Wow that’s a generous reading, Okie. The person who said they were fully compliant was the company spokesperson. ICE didn’t say a damned thing. Did you not read the article? But you probably take the Huckabeast at her word, too. (Very sad! What a disgrace!)

A full 60% of a company’s employees, likely, what, 80% or more of production employees, are undocumented and that’s a coincidence?

What an unlucky employer.

Exactly..

Everyone is missing the point, that amount of illegals, no proper checks. I'm willing to be swayed towards believing that the company was in on the fraud to get some cheap labor.

Redd wrote:

jetero wrote:

Okie wrote:

The article you listed indicated the company followed the letter of the law and there is no culpability.
Did you not read it?

You just proved the point that illegals can and do use illegal means of identity theft.

While they are paying SS and FICA with the fake SS# you can guess they are claiming maximum dependents to keep from paying taxes or having to file taxes with IRS.
Or
Depending on the Validity of the SS# then they can file for EIC and receive the $6314.00 free check up to $49,000.00 of income for 3 or more dependents.

Okie

Wow that’s a generous reading, Okie. The person who said they were fully compliant was the company spokesperson. ICE didn’t say a damned thing. Did you not read the article? But you probably take the Huckabeast at her word, too. (Very sad! What a disgrace!)

A full 60% of a company’s employees, likely, what, 80% or more of production employees, are undocumented and that’s a coincidence?

What an unlucky employer.

Exactly..

Everyone is missing the point, that amount of illegals, no proper checks. I'm willing to be swayed towards believing that the company was in on the fraud to get some cheap labor.

Exactly. Business doesn't want checks, they're pretty comfortable being able to take on illegal labour as long as they can get away with it.

The system seems designed for that.

Frankly amazed that over 50% of the workforce were illegal and no one knew.

Okie wrote:

While they are paying SS and FICA with the fake SS# you can guess they are claiming maximum dependents to keep from paying taxes or having to file taxes with IRS.
Or
Depending on the Validity of the SS# then they can file for EIC and receive the $6314.00 free check up to $49,000.00 of income for 3 or more dependents.
Okie

Well... no. It would be nice if you provided some proof of all those claims, but obviously you didn't - and you can't. Those are great far-right conspiracy theories, but they don't hold up:

"Undocumented immigrants are incredible contributors to our economy and are not eligible for public benefits that people think they come here for," Wiehe said. An estimated half of the nation's undocumented immigrants are believed to be working under fake Social Security numbers, which means they are paying taxes and into Social Security. The ITEP estimates that state and local governments take in $11.74 billion a year from undocumented immigrants. Wiehe added that undocumented immigrants are also not eligible for the federal earned income tax credit, so they're taxed at higher rates than similar low-income Americans."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/fact-check-how-much-does-illegal-immigration-cost-america-not-n950981
.

In truth, the real dirty little secret is that our Social Security System is propped-up by contributions from undocumented workers - contributions they will not be able to reclaim:

"The IRS estimates that undocumented immigrants pay over $9 billion in withheld payroll taxes annually. Undocumented immigrants also help make the Social Security system more solvent, as they pay into the system but are ineligible to collect benefits upon retiring. In 2010, $12 billion more was collected from Social Security payroll taxes of undocumented workers than were paid out in benefits."

https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/
.

Facts are stubborn things. I know they won't mean a thing to the bigots, "nationalists", and xenophobes who scream about these immigrants, but thinking people do pay attention. And thinking people don't spend their time making spurious claims....

Maybe if a system like eVerify were fully funded and able to function as it is intended, this would not have happened. But, take away funding and do not give a program any teeth, this is what happens. Republicans can point to eVerify and scream about how it does not work so just defund such programs and whine because brown skinned people are taking American's jobs.

eVerify may not be the greatest system for verifying the status of employees. So, make something work. Fund eVerify. Don't just sit there and complain.

Amazing that you can pay taxes for illegal workers and even book their salary...

alfa164 wrote:

Okie wrote:

While they are paying SS and FICA with the fake SS# you can guess they are claiming maximum dependents to keep from paying taxes or having to file taxes with IRS.
Or
Depending on the Validity of the SS# then they can file for EIC and receive the $6314.00 free check up to $49,000.00 of income for 3 or more dependents.
Okie

Well... no. It would be nice if you provided some proof of all those claims, but obviously you didn't - and you can't. Those are great far-right conspiracy theories, but they don't hold up:

Actually, you can read what you want on the internet but the reality among the illegals is as he stated. They simply claim massive dependents on the the W4. Do you understand that system and how it works? It is as simple as writing your stolen name, number and the number 11 under "Dependents". The government will only benefit from the FICA. This is no "right-wing conspiracy" - they know and use ALL the loopholes. And few of them are ever going to file tax returns at all. In my industry, most of the hiring of illegals is done by their own. This is actually a bigger problem because many immigrants, legal and illegal will only hire their own and you can see this in company hiring.

Where do you live alfa? What percentage of your area is immigrant? I ask this because you seem ignorant to how immigrants get along in this country. I happen to sit in a neighborhood that is ~70% foreign borne. ~40% of my county is foreign borne. My wife is foreign borne. Your kneejerk response on this is simply ignorant.

fr8mech wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Seems to me the company should get a fine for not properly vetting their employees.

Just out of curiosity, would you feel the same way if the employer was a hospital? A school? Landscaper? Nursing home? How about a temp agency?

casinterest wrote:

Why didn't the manufacturer use e-verify?

Probably, because it's not mandatory. It really should be mandatory. I mean, it's been around, in some form or another, since 1996.

If it were mandatory, then the employer, any employer, should be held liable. So, how do you hold the employer responsible if it's not mandatory? Unless, of course, it can be proved that the employer knew its employees were illegal. But, in this case, it appears they didn't.

The company said that Homeland Security confirmed Bear Creek's Human Resource Department "complied with all laws, rules and regulations" in their hiring practices.

Personally, I think there should be federal legislation that makes E-Verify mandatory.

And, what happens if E-Verify is mandatory and in use, but the illegal immigrants were able to scam the system and use fraudulent or stolen (ID theft) numbers? In your world, is the employer still culpable?

***Edit***

Just a little add-on: Wikipedia says that E-Verify is mandatory in NC, depending on size of employer and type of employee. So, if that's the case AND "Bear Creek's Human Resource Department 'complied with all laws, rules and regulations' in their hiring practices", who is at fault?

All that hire illegals should face a fine, unless the issue is in the verification system. It would cut out a bunch of the, we just need to fill the seat to get the job done mentality,. and it would solve the border crossing issue if jobs were not so easy to come by.

mham001 wrote:

Actually, you can read what you want on the internet but the reality among the illegals is as he stated.

This is not "reading what you want on the internet". These facts come from recognized, credible news and research organizations - not Breitbart, Alex Jones, or Faux News - or any of their ilk. You are making statements with no evidence at all. Let's see some evidence and then draw our conclusions.

mham001 wrote:

They simply claim massive dependents on the the W4. Do you understand that system and how it works? It is as simple as writing your stolen name, number and the number 11 under "Dependents". The government will only benefit from the FICA.

Do you have any facts to support that? Any actual figures or statistics? Can you provide us with the numbers? Any thinking person would welcome actual information, not spurious claims.

mham001 wrote:

And few of them are ever going to file tax returns at all. In my industry, most of the hiring of illegals is done by their own. This is actually a bigger problem because many immigrants, legal and illegal will only hire their own and you can see this in company hiring.

In "your industry" most businesses are owned by undocumented immigrants? I would love to hear what business that is! And you do realize that they pay sales taxes, property taxes, and numerous other taxes that contribute to the national economy as well, don't you?

mham001 wrote:

Where do you live alfa? What percentage of your area is immigrant? I ask this because you seem ignorant to how immigrants get along in this country..

Since my legal home is in Texas, you would be especially hard-pressed to prove that statement.

mham001 wrote:

I happen to sit in a neighborhood that is ~70% foreign borne. ~40% of my county is foreign borne..

Is the nearby presence of foreigners the cause of your resentment? Are their businesses more successful than yours? If they are better businessmen and businesswomen than you are, I can see your frustration, but to blame them for your lack of success is just an excuse.

mham001 wrote:

Your kneejerk response on this is simply ignorant.

Actually, a "knee-jerk response" is a reaction from someone who spouts unsupported reactions; presenting facts does not constitute a "knee-jerk" response. I think you accidentally looked in the mirror when you wrote that...


.

The anti-immigrant fear machine still holds sway with a few people... but not so many, as the proven lack of support for the "wall" attests. We have been a nation of immigrants - almost all of us are - since our founding. And we continue to be so, despite the plaintive calls from the extreme edges of our society.

casinterest wrote:

All that hire illegals should face a fine, unless the issue is in the verification system. It would cut out a bunch of the, we just need to fill the seat to get the job done mentality,. and it would solve the border crossing issue if jobs were not so easy to come by.

Good, I'm glad we agree. E-verify is a good start, but we need verification and enforcement.

If an employer knowingly hires illegal aliens, then that employer should be held accountable. If there are loopholes in the system, as I suspect may be the case here, they should be closed. Heck, if this article is to be believed,the town of Sanford, NC is a hotbed of alleged illegal activity.

https://rantnc.com/2019/02/05/ice-agent ... ing-plant/

seb146 wrote:

Maybe if a system like eVerify were fully funded and able to function as it is intended, this would not have happened.

Agreed, I wonder what happened to this funding request:

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/ ... y-use.aspx

fr8mech wrote:

casinterest wrote:

All that hire illegals should face a fine, unless the issue is in the verification system. It would cut out a bunch of the, we just need to fill the seat to get the job done mentality,. and it would solve the border crossing issue if jobs were not so easy to come by.

Good, I'm glad we agree. E-verify is a good start, but we need verification and enforcement.

If an employer knowingly hires illegal aliens, then that employer should be held accountable. If there are loopholes in the system, as I suspect may be the case here, they should be closed. Heck, if this article is to be believed,the town of Sanford, NC is a hotbed of alleged illegal activity.

https://rantnc.com/2019/02/05/ice-agent ... ing-plant/

seb146 wrote:

Maybe if a system like eVerify were fully funded and able to function as it is intended, this would not have happened.

Agreed, I wonder what happened to this funding request:

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/ ... y-use.aspx

Sanford is about 50 miles from RDU. There is a lot of construction in Raleigh/Durham and Fayetteville along with being close to major golfing/resort centers in Pinehurst/Sandhills area. Sanford is rcheap and in the center of it all . Wouldn't be surprised.And it is items like this which should raise the flag at the HR level and the National level. I am curious how ICE got tipped off here.

casinterest wrote:

fr8mech wrote:

casinterest wrote:

All that hire illegals should face a fine, unless the issue is in the verification system. It would cut out a bunch of the, we just need to fill the seat to get the job done mentality,. and it would solve the border crossing issue if jobs were not so easy to come by.

Good, I'm glad we agree. E-verify is a good start, but we need verification and enforcement.

If an employer knowingly hires illegal aliens, then that employer should be held accountable. If there are loopholes in the system, as I suspect may be the case here, they should be closed. Heck, if this article is to be believed,the town of Sanford, NC is a hotbed of alleged illegal activity.

https://rantnc.com/2019/02/05/ice-agent ... ing-plant/

seb146 wrote:

Maybe if a system like eVerify were fully funded and able to function as it is intended, this would not have happened.

Agreed, I wonder what happened to this funding request:

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/ ... y-use.aspx

Sanford is about 50 miles from RDU. There is a lot of construction in Raleigh/Durham and Fayetteville along with being close to major golfing/resort centers in Pinehurst/Sandhills area. Sanford is rcheap and in the center of it all . Wouldn't be surprised.And it is items like this which should raise the flag at the HR level and the National level. I am curious how ICE got tipped off here.

Maybe it was McRae Dowless.

casinterest wrote:

Sanford is about 50 miles from RDU. There is a lot of construction in Raleigh/Durham and Fayetteville along with being close to major golfing/resort centers in Pinehurst/Sandhills area. Sanford is rcheap and in the center of it all . Wouldn't be surprised.And it is items like this which should raise the flag at the HR level and the National level. I am curious how ICE got tipped off here.

According to your article it is quite simple. They were using stolen, identity theft and just simply false SS#.
Even if they were using falsified ITIN's they expire after three years.
All those items will pass the scrutiny of E-verify until at least the after first tax season at which point the IRS would start to investigate.
So to be fair probably 3 years minimum before the numbers would show up on E-verify as bad.

You only check employees numbers at point of start of employment. You don't go around an harass every employee every pay day to check if they want to change their SS# or ITIN or if they had any misdemeanors or committed felonies since last payday.

As far as how ICE getting tipped off is quite simple. The Illegal Immigrants Blatantly did.
After a period of time, then the IRS after complaints or multiple returns of stolen or false tax number that have a common EIN it is pretty easy to figure where to go look.

Okie

Okie wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Sanford is about 50 miles from RDU. There is a lot of construction in Raleigh/Durham and Fayetteville along with being close to major golfing/resort centers in Pinehurst/Sandhills area. Sanford is rcheap and in the center of it all . Wouldn't be surprised.And it is items like this which should raise the flag at the HR level and the National level. I am curious how ICE got tipped off here.

According to your article it is quite simple. They were using stolen, identity theft and just simply false SS#.
Even if they were using falsified ITIN's they expire after three years.
All those items will pass the scrutiny of E-verify until at least the after first tax season at which point the IRS would start to investigate.
So to be fair probably 3 years minimum before the numbers would show up on E-verify as bad.

You only check employees numbers at point of start of employment. You don't go around an harass every employee every pay day to check if they want to change their SS# or ITIN or if they had any misdemeanors or committed felonies since last payday.

As far as how ICE getting tipped off is quite simple. The Illegal Immigrants Blatantly did.
After a period of time, then the IRS after complaints or multiple returns of stolen or false tax number that have a common EIN it is pretty easy to figure where to go look.

Okie

Voila!

What a tremendously unlucky roll of the dice for that gun manufacturer.

Okie wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Sanford is about 50 miles from RDU. There is a lot of construction in Raleigh/Durham and Fayetteville along with being close to major golfing/resort centers in Pinehurst/Sandhills area. Sanford is rcheap and in the center of it all . Wouldn't be surprised.And it is items like this which should raise the flag at the HR level and the National level. I am curious how ICE got tipped off here.

According to your article it is quite simple. They were using stolen, identity theft and just simply false SS#.
Even if they were using falsified ITIN's they expire after three years.
All those items will pass the scrutiny of E-verify until at least the after first tax season at which point the IRS would start to investigate.
So to be fair probably 3 years minimum before the numbers would show up on E-verify as bad.

You only check employees numbers at point of start of employment. You don't go around an harass every employee every pay day to check if they want to change their SS# or ITIN or if they had any misdemeanors or committed felonies since last payday.

As far as how ICE getting tipped off is quite simple. The Illegal Immigrants Blatantly did.
After a period of time, then the IRS after complaints or multiple returns of stolen or false tax number that have a common EIN it is pretty easy to figure where to go look.

Okie

There should be other signs. If as others state, the Illegals are trying to game taxes as well. The amount of exemptions should be a big tip-off. Especially within a companies HR department and payroll.

And everything you and I are discussing here is pure data. The other issue should be with other employees in the factory knowing.
If the IRS and ICE are tipped off after 3 years, then that means the data is showing what was already well known on the floor..

So..as the employer has to pay a share of FICA, Unemployment and other taxes/fees...did they just knowingly "eat" those costs? seems like pretty big chunk of change to just toss away....

bhill wrote:

So..as the employer has to pay a share of FICA, Unemployment and other taxes/fees...did they just knowingly "eat" those costs? seems like pretty big chunk of change to just toss away....

Huh? They went as part of regular remittances to the federal and state governments just as they would for any other employee.

In other words, these undocumented immigrants paid into the social security, medicare, and unemployment systems. (Not to mention income taxes through withholding.)