jetero
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:35 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Jetero, you are assuming that the withholding formula year over year had a proportional change such that refunds would be nearly identical year over year despite the voluminous overhaul of the tax code. That's almost impossible. The IRS is good but not *that* good. They adjusted the withholding formula/tables (in my estimation) to some best fit curves based on numerous studies of the typical household in each bracket with various exemption declarations. Probably ran samples of thousands of examples to develop the formula based on their interpretation of the changed law and prior experience.

Short of having someone from the IRS come here and tell us exactly how they developed it, what factors they used and why, we won't really know. But as far as I'm concerned it is entirely possible that the changes in the withholding formulas could account for people receiving a smaller refund year over year, yet still paying less taxes year over year on the same income.


OK, TRP, it's confirmed. You really just don't know what you're talking about.

But if it's easier for you to think that the IRS used "best fit curves" to calculate very simple withholding formulas based on filing status, tax brackets, and the number of deductions and exemptions claimed (not quite sure why you need to talk to someone from the IRS on that . . . it's very simple to see if you review them . . . absolute same idea as behind the tax tables in the 1040 instruction booklet) rather than entertain the idea that for some taxpayers (1) the tax cut was meaningless; or (2) they ended up paying a higher tax liability, well then OK. (Don't forget we've known that this would be the case since December 2017 . . . see https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8xyq ... ps-tax-cut.)

For the umpteenth time, other things equal, the only way not updating withholding tables would generate such situation is in the case that people (1) who itemized before and adjusted their W-4 for lower withholding; (2) now take the much higher standard deduction; and (3) didn't go through the process to update their W-4 again. They should have had higher take home pay and now a tax liability. Again, I'm not saying that didn't happen, in fact I'm saying it most certainly did happen, but in that case we're talking about people who were smart enough to do their W-4 to begin with and didn't update it. I have no idea what percentage of the population that'd be, but I assume it'd be in the single digits.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:13 pm

The problem with the withholding table is that there is no clear guidance on how to adjust it. I tried the IRS calculator, the TurboTax calculator, and the H&R Block calculator...all three gave me different numbers every time.

The other thing with the withholding is that if I have to adjust it so that the tax return is unchanged, then what's the point of claiming that I have more money in my paycheck? It's almost like they shifted the values by one level, so I probably could have seen a larger refund if I reduced my withholding to 1. Of course some people ended up paying less in taxes overall: they took home more pay. That's why I don't think the total tax paid is a reliable measure.
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jetero
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:36 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
The problem with the withholding table is that there is no clear guidance on how to adjust it. I tried the IRS calculator, the TurboTax calculator, and the H&R Block calculator...all three gave me different numbers every time.

The other thing with the withholding is that if I have to adjust it so that the tax return is unchanged, then what's the point of claiming that I have more money in my paycheck? It's almost like they shifted the values by one level, so I probably could have seen a larger refund if I reduced my withholding to 1. Of course some people ended up paying less in taxes overall: they took home more pay. That's why I don't think the total tax paid is a reliable measure.


Well total taxes paid (before filing of the return) is not a reliable measure, but total tax liability is, and I suspect people are using "taxes paid" to mean "taxes eventually paid."

I suspect the TurboTax and H&R Block calculators take into account way more complexities (say student loan interest deduction and other adjustments to gross income and credits) than the simple W-4 on which the IRS tax calculator is based. If I had to guess, TT and H&R Block gave you lower numbers?

But the IRS withholding methodology based on the W-4 is very simple.

-What filing status? (To use the appropriate tax tables.)

-How many allowances? (For yourself and any dependents.)

-The allowance worksheet contains steps to calculate additional allowances for credits like the child tax credit.

-If you want to go through the additional step of calculating whether you can withhold less because you're itemizing.

-And, if you're like me and have a spouse who earns substantially less than you do, you have to go through a worksheet to calculate additional withholding as the withholding on his paycheck is done at the lower tax bracket.

It's a very simple calculation for payroll to get to your taxable income based on your salary or expected earnings, adjusted for allowances and exemptions, and this is where the withholding tables come in . . . it is a simple, linear calculation. No best fit curves come anywhere near the withholding tables.

Edit: Actually I'm wrong, it's even easier. Estimation of salary doesn't even come into it. They just withhold at the rate until you hit the next tax bracket, then go to the next tax rate.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:49 pm

At the end of the day, all I am saying is that it is entirely possible that someone could have gotten a smaller return this year but still have a lower tax obligation than they did last year.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:53 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
At the end of the day, all I am saying is that it is entirely possible that someone could have gotten a smaller return this year but still have a lower tax obligation than they did last year.

And that would be correct. And it should be the case for most folks.

Unfortunately in such a great performance of our economy, the deficit and debt have increased under this plan, and the wealthiest for the most part will see the most gain.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:02 pm

In France the way income taxes are collected have just been changed, so that now employers withhold it on paychecks, until last month you had to manage it yourself.

So now when you talk about withholding formulas, refunds etc., it makes sense. And I'm already a bit lost with the system, despite having followed what was going on, what got taken on my first paycheck of the year was less than I expected, and when I connect to the government website to authorize a sum to be taken from my account, the tool asks me what is the taxable amount of money I will earn in February 2019, as if I knew how much I will make in advance !
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jetero
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:09 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
At the end of the day, all I am saying is that it is entirely possible that someone could have gotten a smaller return this year but still have a lower tax obligation than they did last year.


On that we agree. I just don't think it should be dismissed as attributable to some quirk in withholding tables.

But it's also as possible (although not equally as possible) that some people are paying more.
 
jetero
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:14 pm

Aesma wrote:
In France the way income taxes are collected have just been changed, so that now employers withhold it on paychecks, until last month you had to manage it yourself.

So now when you talk about withholding formulas, refunds etc., it makes sense. And I'm already a bit lost with the system, despite having followed what was going on, what got taken on my first paycheck of the year was less than I expected, and when I connect to the government website to authorize a sum to be taken from my account, the tool asks me what is the taxable amount of money I will earn in February 2019, as if I knew how much I will make in advance !


Mexico is the same (as France used to be) and I think they file quarterly tax reconciliations.

The U.S. a progressive tax system, which I assume France does as well.

So taxes are paid in "buckets"

You pay A% on the first $B in income; C% on the next $D; E% on the next $F and so on until you hit the maximum marginal tax rate.

There are different thresholds/brackets for the dollar amount based on your filing status (essentially single or married, but there are others) and number of dependents.

The complication is if you want to take advantage of certain situational tax deductions and credits, in which you are able to either (1) withhold less, or (2) claim a larger refund at the end of the year.

It's ripe for simplification and true reform, which the 2017 tax legislation was not.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:36 pm

jetero wrote:
It's ripe for simplification and true reform, which the 2017 tax legislation was not.


Without a doubt. What was described to us as a "we're simplifying things" early on really just became a modification of everything that resulted in virtually no simplifying. (well, except for perhaps that more people will be taking advantage of the standard deduction instead of itemizing - but lets be real, we all use the tax software these days and it checks both for us to see which is better anyways).

As far as deficits and debt. We still have a projected revenue increase this year. The problem is our spending increase this year (lead largely by defense spending) outpaced the revenue increase. We will never learn. At least during the 1990s we were smart to restrain spending while we had a boom in the economy (woo internet start ups!) and resisted the urge to drop taxes. We should have done so again. But that's not popular I guess. I'm not afraid to say that.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:14 am

I went yesterday to accountant, will have the news good or bad for those in my situation shortly. I cannot wait until I can tell my Trump supporter friends how it affects us who are retired. We all worked together, so similar retirement incomes. Of course if I am wrong,I will eat a little Crow.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
jetero
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Evidently the IRS is waiving the underpayment penalty for tax year 2018 for people who did not withhold (or make estimated tax payments) enough.

What a mess.
 
Magog
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:43 pm

jetero wrote:
Evidently the IRS is waiving the underpayment penalty for tax year 2018 for people who did not withhold (or make estimated tax payments) enough.

What a mess.

They are waiving the penalty for those who withheld at least 85% rather than the customary 90%.

Methinks you doth protest too much.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:28 pm

So, as I noted in the other thread I benefited greatly.

But in regards to simplifying: I did notice that the 1040 was drastically different. I suppose I would call it simplified, but again the software available to us these days handles everything anyways so I find that irrelevant.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:31 pm

apodino wrote:
The problem is when the tax cuts went into place the withholding tables changed accordingly and most people didn't realize it and thus ended up not having enough withheld. If people look at the actual tax on their returns they will see than the actual tax this year is lower than last year. But because less money was withheld, they end up not getting a refund and having to pay the difference. But people don't look at the actual tax payed...only the size of the refund.

In my case...my refund nearly doubled this year over last year, and my effective tax rate was less than 10 percent.

Yup, me too. The better off you are, the higher your income, the more you are one who understands and plans for taxes, better you will do.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tugger
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:34 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
At the end of the day, all I am saying is that it is entirely possible that someone could have gotten a smaller return this year but still have a lower tax obligation than they did last year.

But better is my thing: How is that possible?

The government is running a one trillion dollar deficit.... How is it possible for anyone's "obligation" to go down?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:29 am

Tugg, obligation is what the law says. If they want to address the deficit and debt they should do so.

I bet you try and reduce your obligation as much as you can too ;)

Everyone does, even Bernie Sanders.
 
seb146
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:27 am

trpmb6 wrote:
Tugg, obligation is what the law says. If they want to address the deficit and debt they should do so.

I bet you try and reduce your obligation as much as you can too ;)

Everyone does, even Bernie Sanders.


Those at the bottom have their obligation above zero and those at the top have their obligation below zero. Republicans can make it look different but, at the end of the day and when everything is calculated out, it is those at the bottom who are paying for those at the top.

Losses are socialized, gains are not.

The government under REPUBLICANS has been spending much more than they have been taking in. It was the biggest issue when Obama was president and Democrats were in control of both houses of Congress. But, now, for some reason, it is not an issue and should not be discussed at all. I wonder why
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:30 pm

Interesting article about wealth distribution in the US.

Wealth concentration returning to ‘levels last seen during the Roaring Twenties,’ according to new research


The 400 richest Americans — the top 0.00025 percent of the population — have tripled their share of the nation’s wealth since the early 1980s, according to a new working paper on wealth inequality by University of California at Berkeley economist Gabriel Zucman.

Those 400 Americans own more of the country’s riches than the 150 million adults in the bottom 60 percent of the wealth distribution, who saw their share of the nation’s wealth fall from 5.7 percent in 1987 to 2.1 percent in 2014, according to the World Inequality Database maintained by Zucman and others.


Image

Image

Image

Source

With this president / Republican House we will see this gab growing.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Tugger
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:00 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Tugg, obligation is what the law says. If they want to address the deficit and debt they should do so.

I bet you try and reduce your obligation as much as you can too ;)

Everyone does, even Bernie Sanders.

Of course, and that is why I honestly did not support the tax cut. It was poorly done and quite frankly not needed in my opinion (yes I get it that many others do not agree with that). My taxes as a percentage of my overall income are typically lower that many that earn less than I do (obviously higher when talking AGI, it's the adjustments that make all the difference).

The Republican's can no longer claim the blanket of "fiscal responsibility".

I say raise the taxes, raise them enough, on all groups, to cover the deficit. If you do that THEN you will get agreement from the public to reduce programs or benefits etc. They'll be screaming for it. Right now, who cares? We get all the goodies we want and don't have to pay for it! Yay!

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Interesting article about wealth distribution in the US.

Wealth concentration returning to ‘levels last seen during the Roaring Twenties,’ according to new research


The 400 richest Americans — the top 0.00025 percent of the population — have tripled their share of the nation’s wealth since the early 1980s, according to a new working paper on wealth inequality by University of California at Berkeley economist Gabriel Zucman.

Those 400 Americans own more of the country’s riches than the 150 million adults in the bottom 60 percent of the wealth distribution, who saw their share of the nation’s wealth fall from 5.7 percent in 1987 to 2.1 percent in 2014, according to the World Inequality Database maintained by Zucman and others.


Image

Image

Image

Source

With this president / Republican House we will see this gab growing.


Not surprised that from 1910 to 1980, the share of the top 0.1% and 1% declined. Because during that era, the USA was on a gold standard and wages were "as good as gold".
After 1980, the gold standard was ditched and the USA went on a printing press-fueled spending binge with all the hidden inflation that accompanied it, not to mention the serial billion/trillion dollar bailouts that happened every so many years. Although workers' income and savings increased, inflation eroded much of that (which did NOT happen during the gold standard years). And since the top 0.1% and 1% make most of their wealth via the ever-increasing stock market (thanks again to the binging FED), the difference between the top and the bottom will only increase.
 
apodino
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:33 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Interesting article about wealth distribution in the US.

Wealth concentration returning to ‘levels last seen during the Roaring Twenties,’ according to new research


The 400 richest Americans — the top 0.00025 percent of the population — have tripled their share of the nation’s wealth since the early 1980s, according to a new working paper on wealth inequality by University of California at Berkeley economist Gabriel Zucman.

Those 400 Americans own more of the country’s riches than the 150 million adults in the bottom 60 percent of the wealth distribution, who saw their share of the nation’s wealth fall from 5.7 percent in 1987 to 2.1 percent in 2014, according to the World Inequality Database maintained by Zucman and others.


Image

Image

Image

Source

With this president / Republican House we will see this gab growing.


Not surprised that from 1910 to 1980, the share of the top 0.1% and 1% declined. Because during that era, the USA was on a gold standard and wages were "as good as gold".
After 1980, the gold standard was ditched and the USA went on a printing press-fueled spending binge with all the hidden inflation that accompanied it, not to mention the serial billion/trillion dollar bailouts that happened every so many years. Although workers' income and savings increased, inflation eroded much of that (which did NOT happen during the gold standard years). And since the top 0.1% and 1% make most of their wealth via the ever-increasing stock market (thanks again to the binging FED), the difference between the top and the bottom will only increase.


(I think your date is wrong. I think it was in the early 70's under Nixon we came off the gold standard.)

It is for this reason that many on the right have advocated returning to the gold standard. Ron Paul was the biggest proponent of this during his career in Congress. The reason it will not happen is because the gold standard would make it harder for congress to borrow money since the fed would not be able to print money as easily as they can now. This will make it harder for social programs pushed hard by the left, as well as military and border security spending pushed hard by the right.
 
treetreeseven
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:57 pm

Y'all can argue the finer points of witholding vs refund, tables, etc etc., and none of that makes a tin pot worth of difference to 99% of voters.

What DOES make a difference:

  • The tax cut was literally one of the only things Trump and his swampy gaggle of Keystone Kops in the GOP-controlled Congress managed to pass;
  • The vast majority of voters saw little to no benefit from it then, and surprise! are seeing no benefit now, when the rubber meets the road; and
  • As Dutchy posted, the top 0.1% of Americans now control more wealth than the bottom 80%

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that the robber barons may finally have overstepped. Maybe the GOP should have stuck to jailing babies if they wanted to keep their swampy mitts on the levers of power a little longer :lol:
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:15 pm

treetreeseven wrote:

[*] The vast majority of voters saw little to no benefit from it then, and surprise! are seeing no benefit now, when the rubber meets the road; and




I can technically qualify as a "rocket scientist" though I have only worked on one spacecraft in my career. But I digress, would you like to provide supporting evidence for this claim?

The typical household will see significant savings. Those who don't are likely in high tax, blue states - of which I'm sure a few of our more vocal contributors hail from - hence their disdain for the tax law changes.
 
2122M
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:28 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
treetreeseven wrote:

[*] The vast majority of voters saw little to no benefit from it then, and surprise! are seeing no benefit now, when the rubber meets the road; and




I can technically qualify as a "rocket scientist" though I have only worked on one spacecraft in my career. But I digress, would you like to provide supporting evidence for this claim?

The typical household will see significant savings. Those who don't are likely in high tax, blue states - of which I'm sure a few of our more vocal contributors hail from - hence their disdain for the tax law changes.


On average, refunds are down 8% this year, with 25% fewer people receiving refunds at all (so far, obviously there is time left this tax season).

I don't know if you can equate 'the typical household' with 'average refund', but it seems to me that fewer people are getting money back this year.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/filing-sea ... ary-1-2019

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... fbb28bacd1
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:59 pm

And refunds mean, NOTHING!

So what, did the top 0.1% steal it? No, they produced goods and services someone VOLUNTARILY exchanged their money for believing the value of the good or service was more than the money. It’s not like the Government gave Gates or Buffet a gun or forced anyone to buy Schultz’s over priced coffee.

GF
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:30 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, they produced goods and services someone VOLUNTARILY exchanged their money for believing the value of the good or service was more than the money. It’s not like the Government gave Gates or Buffet a gun or forced anyone to buy Schultz’s over priced coffee.

But at the same time, the government though it was necessary to lower their tax burden so that they could "share the wealth" through investing in the workplace, wage increases, and job hiring. Aside from a small one-time bonus, few companies are following through with what people wanted them to do: few companies are investing in the workplace, wage increases are limited to the low wage end of the spectrum (Walmart and the like), and companies are laying off employees (one of my best friends was just laid off from GM). And the rich, who didn't need a tax cut in the first place, are just hoarding more cash, reaping the benefits while claiming that Joe Average is greedy for asking for more.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:46 pm

2122M wrote:

On average, refunds are down 8% this year, with 25% fewer people receiving refunds at all (so far, obviously there is time left this tax season).

I don't know if you can equate 'the typical household' with 'average refund', but it seems to me that fewer people are getting money back this year.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/filing-sea ... ary-1-2019

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... fbb28bacd1


As has been hashed out here many times the refunds don't mean anything. It's AGI year over year and Taxes owed year over year.

It is certainly a good strategy for the left to point out that people may receive lower refunds this year compared to last year but it's completely misleading. It certainly would not surprise me that people may think they are getting screwed if they don't get a refund, yet never look at their tax return and compare to last year to see if they actually paid less in taxes or not.

I can tell you this. My tax return this year was much less than last year. About half of last years. But my taxes owed was significantly less. But I adjusted my estimated tax payments this year to account for the tax law and the fact that i had a big return the last couple years and I ended up in a nice spot.

Please people. Look at your adjusted gross income and the taxes owed. Don't look at what the government owes you or what you owe the government.

einsteinboricua wrote:
and companies are laying off employees (one of my best friends was just laid off from GM).



Look, I feel bad for your friend but that's just not the case on the economic scale of the united states. Our job growth is trending upwards. Not downwards.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:08 am

trpmb6 wrote:
Look, I feel bad for your friend but that's just not the case on the economic scale of the united states. Our job growth is trending upwards. Not downwards.

Except it shouldn't even be happening ANYWHERE. I do agree that job growth is trending upward (as it has been since the end of the Great Recession), but after these tax breaks, the general sense is that companies now have extra wiggle room with their finances to not resort to layoffs. But again, when the priority is buying back stock, dividends for stockholders, and bonuses for executives, what else can we expect?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
seb146
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:15 am

trpmb6 wrote:
Look, I feel bad for your friend but that's just not the case on the economic scale of the united states. Our job growth is trending upwards. Not downwards.


What kind of jobs are being added? Tech jobs, some of which are temporary, or manufacturing jobs, some of which are low wage, or retail and service, which are low wage?

They can add a million jobs but if they only pay minimum wage with no benefits, what's the use?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:11 am

My God it's not worth arguing with you guys sometimes.
 
Magog
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:03 am

trpmb6 wrote:
My God it's not worth arguing with you guys sometimes.

You are arguing about financial matters with someone who admitted that they don’t even look at their pay stub. If that isn’t an exercise in futility, I don’t know what is.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:35 am

seb146 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Look, I feel bad for your friend but that's just not the case on the economic scale of the united states. Our job growth is trending upwards. Not downwards.


What kind of jobs are being added? Tech jobs, some of which are temporary, or manufacturing jobs, some of which are low wage, or retail and service, which are low wage?

They can add a million jobs but if they only pay minimum wage with no benefits, what's the use?



https://smallbiztrends.com/2019/02/2018 ... stics.html

The Q4 results for 2018 saw the average wage level go up by $0.93 to $28.06 an hour.

Industries in the education and health services were responsible for driving this growth as they represent 19% of the nation’s total workforce. For this group, the wage growth was 4.1% with an average hourly wage of $27.05.

The next largest group was trade with 22% of the workforce. And it saw a 4.4% wage growth with an average hourly wage of $24.56.

Regionally, the Northeast experienced the biggest gains with 3.7% in wage growth and an hourly wage of $31.75. But the West had the highest growth in employment at 2.7%.


But Small Companies may be suffering.

While there was good news overall, small businesses experienced a decrease in wage growth. Companies with 1-49 employees saw their wage growth and level go down by -2.1% compared to Q4 of 2017.

The report also revealed lower employment growth, while experiencing turnover rates of 69.9%. This data point could be indicating small businesses are losing their workforce to larger companies as employees look for better-paying jobs.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
seb146
Topic Author
Posts: 18901
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:50 am

casinterest wrote:
seb146 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Look, I feel bad for your friend but that's just not the case on the economic scale of the united states. Our job growth is trending upwards. Not downwards.


What kind of jobs are being added? Tech jobs, some of which are temporary, or manufacturing jobs, some of which are low wage, or retail and service, which are low wage?

They can add a million jobs but if they only pay minimum wage with no benefits, what's the use?



https://smallbiztrends.com/2019/02/2018 ... stics.html

The Q4 results for 2018 saw the average wage level go up by $0.93 to $28.06 an hour.

Industries in the education and health services were responsible for driving this growth as they represent 19% of the nation’s total workforce. For this group, the wage growth was 4.1% with an average hourly wage of $27.05.

The next largest group was trade with 22% of the workforce. And it saw a 4.4% wage growth with an average hourly wage of $24.56.

Regionally, the Northeast experienced the biggest gains with 3.7% in wage growth and an hourly wage of $31.75. But the West had the highest growth in employment at 2.7%.


But Small Companies may be suffering.

While there was good news overall, small businesses experienced a decrease in wage growth. Companies with 1-49 employees saw their wage growth and level go down by -2.1% compared to Q4 of 2017.

The report also revealed lower employment growth, while experiencing turnover rates of 69.9%. This data point could be indicating small businesses are losing their workforce to larger companies as employees look for better-paying jobs.


This is more insightful and meaningful than simply "there were X number of jobs created last month proves our plan works better!"
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:27 am

I got back my results from the accountant today. Compared to last year, we came out 1100 and some odd dollars more than last year. State a little more, , so Federal about 20 bucks a week more, it is funny when I think of all the 20 dollar a week bonuses we heard about for workers with the tax reform. So with both of us being retired, it seems the same result retired. No overtime to change results.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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DL717
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:37 pm

casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
At the end of the day, all I am saying is that it is entirely possible that someone could have gotten a smaller return this year but still have a lower tax obligation than they did last year.

And that would be correct. And it should be the case for most folks.

Unfortunately in such a great performance of our economy, the deficit and debt have increased under this plan, and the wealthiest for the most part will see the most gain.


Unfortunately, people see their tax refund as a measure of their taxes being paid each year. What they don’t get is if they have a large return, they just gave the government a huge short term loan with no interest.
Putting one on ignore does not squelch speech or debate, it’s quiets the noise.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 7727
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:00 pm

DL717 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
At the end of the day, all I am saying is that it is entirely possible that someone could have gotten a smaller return this year but still have a lower tax obligation than they did last year.

And that would be correct. And it should be the case for most folks.

Unfortunately in such a great performance of our economy, the deficit and debt have increased under this plan, and the wealthiest for the most part will see the most gain.


Unfortunately, people see their tax refund as a measure of their taxes being paid each year. What they don’t get is if they have a large return, they just gave the government a huge short term loan with no interest.


It's a psychology issue, and it is the main reason why GWB and company sent out the checks when they cut taxes in 2001. Remember those?

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article ... 913184.php
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 6900
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:11 pm

DL717 wrote:
Unfortunately, people see their tax refund as a measure of their taxes being paid each year.

Again, the tax reform was sold on the idea that our taxes would be lower and we would have more money in the end. If people didn't adjust their W-4 and were willing to overlook the smaller than expected paycheck increase (which was also touted...remember Paul Ryan's "Costco membership" comment?), then their hopes were that they would end up with a larger refund (since they're being taxed at a lower level).

The GOP and Trump didn't explain this very well. They could have told people that they would get a larger paycheck because of W-4 withholding adjustments, but barring any further changes, their refund would be smaller despite paying a lower tax bill; instead, all they ever spoke and campaigned on was how because my taxes were lower, I'd have more money at the end of the day.

I know where you're going and I don't dispute it either, but just like you can't expect Joe Average to distinguish an A320 from a 737, you won't be able to convince them that tax refunds are not a measure of total tax liability, and frankly, because the GOP failed to explain it, they won't believe you either.

DL717 wrote:
What they don’t get is if they have a large return, they just gave the government a huge short term loan with no interest.

On the flip side, it means you can adjust to living within your means. Though I would much rather have a small refund or small tax bill (either of which is a better goal), I like knowing that I can live without a certain amount and then get it back the next year. It's actually quite a surprise and welcome sight to see a sizable refund early in the year, though being the masochist that I am, I put it in savings and don't touch it (I should spend it on myself).
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:48 pm

I've said multiple times that the rollout was terrible. It's a perfect case study on how bureaucracy can ruin a good thing. What started as a "we're simplifying the tax code so you can file your taxes by sending in a post card" became something that was just as complicated as before and only confuses the average tax payer. The GOP has always been terrible at messaging. It's the one thing I wish they'd learn from the Democrats.
 
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Dieuwer
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:27 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
I've said multiple times that the rollout was terrible. It's a perfect case study on how bureaucracy can ruin a good thing. What started as a "we're simplifying the tax code so you can file your taxes by sending in a post card" became something that was just as complicated as before and only confuses the average tax payer. The GOP has always been terrible at messaging. It's the one thing I wish they'd learn from the Democrats.


How about forgetting about "messaging" and try to be honest for a change.
 
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WarRI1
Posts: 12424
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

Re: Middle Class Tax Cuts Not Coming

Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:47 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I've said multiple times that the rollout was terrible. It's a perfect case study on how bureaucracy can ruin a good thing. What started as a "we're simplifying the tax code so you can file your taxes by sending in a post card" became something that was just as complicated as before and only confuses the average tax payer. The GOP has always been terrible at messaging. It's the one thing I wish they'd learn from the Democrats.


How about forgetting about "messaging" and try to be honest for a change.



That is as far fetched as you can get when it comes to truth and politicians. ;)
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