WIederling
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:58 pm

LJ wrote:
WIederling wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
Brexit will take care of some of the biggest tax heavens within the EU.


Luxemburg, Ireland ?


The UK is/was very supportive towards all tax havens in the EU. When they're gone the balance shifts towards those who are against those tax havens.

Linked less to tax havens than to their banksters having the free run of the EU. ( This will change.)?
Murphy is an optimist
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:56 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
The UK is still a member state as of now and still has time over the next few weeks to revoke Article 50 (remember, the ECJ have said this can be done unilaterally without EU27 approval) which, as I speculated above, could be the only option left on the table if the WA is voted down again and Parliament vote down a no deal Brexit. There's also the small matter of finalising the WA and formally settling the future relationship.

Yes, the ECJ ruled that the UK may unilaterally revoke Article 50. But they also attached conditions to that. Revoking cannot be done as a tactical extension of the two years transition period.

That means that revoking can be done only when the leaving country has already made a final decision to remain a member.

Now that's the rules. On the other hand, if the UK late this month decides to have a second referendum, then I would be surprised if EU27 doesn't allow a month or two for having this referendum well prepared. This week the pound has gained back some 3% of those 20% lost since December 2015 when DC announced the referendum. That indicates to me that businesses may indeed be speculating that a second referendum could be on the way.

As an EU27 citizen it worries me a little. Imagine that we do have a second referendum in two months or so, and the outcome is REMAIN. But only 55-60% vote REMAIN. Then we will still have idiots like Farage, Rees-Mogg, Johnson running freely around in Brussels. And there is nothing we EU27'ers can do about it. Are we really so bad that we deserve that?
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Bostrom
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:42 pm

prebennorholm wrote:
As an EU27 citizen it worries me a little. Imagine that we do have a second referendum in two months or so, and the outcome is REMAIN. But only 55-60% vote REMAIN. Then we will still have idiots like Farage, Rees-Mogg, Johnson running freely around in Brussels. And there is nothing we EU27'ers can do about it. Are we really so bad that we deserve that?


That is certainly a great argument for trying to get rid of the UK. I was looking forward to a more productive parliament, as for some reasons it's mostly british MEPs who can't behave like adults in the parliament. But yes we will still have the three mentioned politicians to deal with, but on the other hand they hav revealed that they are are political clowns and we don't have to pay any attention to them. And the UK can never say "give us this or we'll leave" again, if they do they'll be laughed at.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:23 pm

I think that UK miss that the people of the EU27 also have the right to have oppinion about the Brexit. If UK always want to demand special favors like a tenage kids, one day someone will say NO!
 
Bostrom
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:45 am

olle wrote:
I think that UK miss that the people of the EU27 also have the right to have oppinion about the Brexit. If UK always want to demand special favors like a tenage kids, one day someone will say NO!


Add to that a british lack of understanding about how the EU works, and things might go bad.

I found this video interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fItpiN6e-k Why the UK Thinks the EU Will Surrender Over Brexit

Short summary: UK don't understand the foundation and reasons for why the EU was created, they see it as a free trade area created for economic benefits. Hence they think the EU will surrender in order to not damage their economy. Most other countries however see it as a project for peace and international cooperation, and prefer an economic hit to throw out the foundations of the EU.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:56 am

olle wrote:
I think that UK miss that the people of the EU27 also have the right to have oppinion about the Brexit. If UK always want to demand special favors like a tenage kids, one day someone will say NO!


The EU said no to Camaron just before the referendum.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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zkojq
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:32 pm

European Medicines Agency unable to terminate Canary Wharf lease

Leaving EU does not ‘frustrate’ contract with landlord Canary Wharf Group, high court rules

The European Medicines Agency has lost a high court battle to cancel its £500m long-term office lease in London to move to Amsterdam because of Brexit.

It had argued that the lease on its Canary Wharf HQ had been “frustrated” by Britain’s impending departure from the EU, a legal term meaning that owing to an unforeseen event, the basis on which the contract was signed had changed, making it impossible to fulfil.

But landlord Canary Wharf Group took the agency to the court to enforce the contract, which lasts until 2039.

In his 95-page ruling, the judge said the EMA had signed up to the lease under English law and could not escape its obligations just because it was an agency of the EU. “It would seem a remarkable development for a contract involving an agency of the European Union to receive different treatment compared to a contract not involving such an agency,” he said.

The EMA said it believed a preliminary reference to the court of justice of the EU was still “the most appropriate way forward”. Owen Talfan Davies, a partner at European law firm Fieldfisher, said the ruling was “no surprise”. “Brexit may ultimately be the cause of some tenants being unable to comply with rental obligations under their leases, but it is not going to give rise to lawful grounds to avoid those obligations,” he said.

The judge confirmed that the EMA could sublet or assign the premises at 30 Churchill Place subject to the landlord’s consent.



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ver-brexit

scbriml wrote:
In shocking Brexit news, Jeremy Corbyn has got off the fence. Maybe.


:banghead: Took him long enough.

sabenapilot wrote:
Just a small question, A101: How many languages do you speak? And do you ever read serious foreign newspapers?


I think we all know the answer to both of those, despite A101 dodging the question. :roll:

scbriml wrote:
Of course, simply asking for more of the same should rightly be rejected by the EU. The UK would need a specific reason - a second referendum would likely be agreeable

:checkmark:

Olddog wrote:
A crack down on tax heavens in the EU should be a good start.

Indeed - this has needed to be done for years.

A3801000 wrote:
'US takes tough line with UK on post-Brexit trade talks
Donald Trump’s trade representative to demand greater access for agricultural goods'

'...the US is looking for the UK to remove “unwarranted barriers” related to “sanitary and physiosanitary” standards...'

'The tough US demands are only an opening gambit, but they highlight the difficulties the UK could face in negotiating a trade deal with Washington, in contrast to claims made by leading Brexit proponents that it would be a smooth exercise.'


It's disgusting, but at the end of the day the US Trade Representative is just doing his job. I never understood why Brexiteers seemed to think that the UK would have more leverage in such negotiations once outside of EU juristiction. Did they think that the US would take pity on them and be extra generous in s trade deal.

The exact same thing is happening with negotiations with Asian nations. Did the brexitards seriously think that when sitting at the negotiating table with China, India, Vietnam etc visas and visa guarantees weren't going to be on the agenda? If that's not ironic, I don't know what is.

LJ wrote:
The UK is/was very supportive towards all tax havens in the EU. When they're gone the balance shifts towards those who are against those tax havens.


True.
First to fly the 787-9
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:32 pm

zkojq wrote:
The exact same thing is happening with negotiations with Asian nations. Did the brexitards seriously think that when sitting at the negotiating table with China, India, Vietnam etc visas and visa guarantees weren't going to be on the agenda? If that's not ironic, I don't know what is.

The exact same thing is happening with the EU hence the reason why some people say hard brexit is the only way to go. The UK as a little nation has no leverage whatsoever with the EU, the supposed divorce bill is more of a bribe than leverage, funny thing is that in-spite of their being no deal, no one on the EU side is saying the UK has to pay bar bill, meet obligations, etc etc etc..I think they finally realized that they can survive just fine without the UK money.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:47 am

Meanwhile, the US is warming up to the EU again, most probably in anticipation of the start of negotiations on a comprehensive trade deal between the 2 global economies: Donald Trump's administration is upgrading the diplomatic status of the EU in Washington to the equivalent of a nation and adds some very kind words about the EU to the press release on the subject.
https://fr.scribd.com/document/40100301 ... from_embed

The US won't favor Britain when it comes to FTAs after all then, it seems: money talks and the EU market is far more important than just the UK....
In Washington too, the UK is at the back of the queue, regardless whether the US President is 'of Kenyan descend' (dixit B. Johnson) or Donald Trump.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:32 am

par13del wrote:
zkojq wrote:
The exact same thing is happening with negotiations with Asian nations. Did the brexitards seriously think that when sitting at the negotiating table with China, India, Vietnam etc visas and visa guarantees weren't going to be on the agenda? If that's not ironic, I don't know what is.

The exact same thing is happening with the EU hence the reason why some people say hard brexit is the only way to go. The UK as a little nation has no leverage whatsoever with the EU, the supposed divorce bill is more of a bribe than leverage, funny thing is that in-spite of their being no deal, no one on the EU side is saying the UK has to pay bar bill, meet obligations, etc etc etc..I think they finally realized that they can survive just fine without the UK money.


I am always surprised on how the British understand the EU. The EU wants an orderly Brexit and is offering a deal to achieve this based on the wishes of the UK and the needs of the EU.

This does not mean that it has ruled out other actions in case of a no deal scenario - in fact every leader in the EU is pointing out that the preparations for a hard Brexit are advancing. And imho this will include a divorce bill that the EU will try to collect from the UK through international organisations. And the EU has always said that the UK needs to meet their obligations before one can even discuss a trade deal for the future. And to be honest this is enough leverage for the EU to not voice the other options too loudly.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:11 am

sabenapilot wrote:
Meanwhile, the US is warming up to the EU again, most probably in anticipation of the start of negotiations on a comprehensive trade deal between the 2 global economies: Donald Trump's administration is upgrading the diplomatic status of the EU in Washington to the equivalent of a nation and adds some very kind words about the EU to the press release on the subject.


I wouldn't read too much into that - all they've done is restore it to where it was after they downgraded it less than two months ago (without even notifying the EU beforehand). Just the US playing silly games.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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jcancel
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:32 am

the serious foreign newspapers now publish in English. El Pais, Der Spiegel, and Le Monde have English articles.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:44 am

scbriml wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Meanwhile, the US is warming up to the EU again, most probably in anticipation of the start of negotiations on a comprehensive trade deal between the 2 global economies: Donald Trump's administration is upgrading the diplomatic status of the EU in Washington to the equivalent of a nation and adds some very kind words about the EU to the press release on the subject.


I wouldn't read too much into that - all they've done is restore it to where it was after they downgraded it less than two months ago (without even notifying the EU beforehand). Just the US playing silly games.


I agree it's a silly game, but it's played because that's how Trump negotiates: with NAFTA 'recrafted' and the deal with the PRC now pending for this month, the third big global economic issue of Donald Trump (i.e. German cars) is about to be tackled too, probably in the same way as the 2 others: a lot of screaming, sending out insults to ambassadors and officials combined with treats of tariffs and in the end a deal which pretty much looks like the original one, plus some cosmetics put over it and a symbolic win here and there he can tweet about, all while shifting just a few commas in the trade (im)balance sheets.

Sources in the EU are rumouring part the EU-US FTA which was put on ice could be used as the basis of the upcoming negotiations between the EU and the US: Dr. Fox will go crazy if this gets confirmed, especially if it is put right next to the terms of the UK-US negotiation notes which got leaked last week... It's also the way Trump likes to play out 2 parties known to oppose eachother, so the coming weeks and months (if the UK finally leaves) will be interesting for us to watch... as well as sobering for the Brexiteers, who dream they'll be getting a deal for the UK nobody could ever get for the UK while inside the EU. In a way, they'll be right, just not the way they imagine. :duck:
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:26 am

Frankly there is no way an EU-US FTA will be signed with Trump. There is no chance of an agreement, it was already on the brink of the impossible with Obama, and on top of that, it wouldn't be worth the paper it's signed on, as we've seen with the Iran deal.

Now, some bilateral stuff like the removal of tariffs on cars, that could happen.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:50 am

Aesma wrote:
Frankly there is no way an EU-US FTA will be signed with Trump. There is no chance of an agreement, it was already on the brink of the impossible with Obama, and on top of that, it wouldn't be worth the paper it's signed on, as we've seen with the Iran deal.

Now, some bilateral stuff like the removal of tariffs on cars, that could happen.


Indeed, talk is that the aim is to hammer out an economic deal between the EU and the US on energy (gas), steel, cars and some other Industrial issues of mutual benefit to not only get rid of the recently introduced (retaliatory) tariffs, but also to lower them further on these imports.
Regardless what it will have to be called to satisfy Trump's preference for bombastic rhetoric, no demands to relax our food standards, to allow price increases on medication, or limitations on what sort of tradedeals with others the EU may do will be put down in the document.... all demands the US has put down in their negotiating notes for any future US-UK deal.
We'll see what comes of it over the next months, but there's currently a lot moving behind the screens, as evidenced by the little goodwill gesture from DC I've come to highlight here, this morning. ;)
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:08 am

Aesma wrote:
Frankly there is no way an EU-US FTA will be signed with Trump. There is no chance of an agreement, it was already on the brink of the impossible with Obama, and on top of that, it wouldn't be worth the paper it's signed on, as we've seen with the Iran deal.

Now, some bilateral stuff like the removal of tariffs on cars, that could happen.


I agree, a totally free trade agreement would be hard. Too many oppositions within the EU to, defacto, lower some of the quality standards. Oversimplified: US filosophy, if it isn't proven to be harmfull, it can be sold, EU filosophy, it needs to be proven safe, before it can be put on the selves. And there are other issue's as well, like the court of settlements. It doesn't matter if Trump is in power or its succesor.

So I agree that tarrifs on certain products might be taken down, but that's about it.

Back to the topic at hand. Great Brittain will not have the luxury to turn such a deal down, so yes, there can be a deal between GB and USA, but indeed not the unicorn deal the Brexiteers promised.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:39 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
The EU could ramp up the pressure by changing the language of Art. 50 if they wanted to, since the UK doesnt get to vote at the moment, they couldn't veto that...

Nothing in the Lisbon treaty prevents them from changing how the EU rules work while being in an Art. 50 phase.


True, but then they have had a couple of years to do that if they so wished. I'd be surprised if they can rush through the necessary changes in less than 4 weeks, though there are more pressing issues for them to content with at this time.

prebennorholm wrote:
Yes, the ECJ ruled that the UK may unilaterally revoke Article 50. But they also attached conditions to that. Revoking cannot be done as a tactical extension of the two years transition period.

That means that revoking can be done only when the leaving country has already made a final decision to remain a member.

Now that's the rules. On the other hand, if the UK late this month decides to have a second referendum, then I would be surprised if EU27 doesn't allow a month or two for having this referendum well prepared. This week the pound has gained back some 3% of those 20% lost since December 2015 when DC announced the referendum. That indicates to me that businesses may indeed be speculating that a second referendum could be on the way.

As an EU27 citizen it worries me a little. Imagine that we do have a second referendum in two months or so, and the outcome is REMAIN. But only 55-60% vote REMAIN. Then we will still have idiots like Farage, Rees-Mogg, Johnson running freely around in Brussels. And there is nothing we EU27'ers can do about it. Are we really so bad that we deserve that?


I'm fully aware of the condition the ECJ put on about it and quite right IMO as it needs the likes of the UK Parliament to make its mind up. Maybe next week things will become clearer, but it's worrying how late in the day this is.

As for Rees-Mogg and Johnson, they're not MEP's and if the UK sticks around long enough to at least vote MEP's in the next round of EP elections (or remains) I don't expect Farage to be re-elected. I don't know (or care) what he's up to and what party he's affiliated to these days, but ever since the referendum UKIP's support has collapsed.

Dutchy wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Frankly there is no way an EU-US FTA will be signed with Trump. There is no chance of an agreement, it was already on the brink of the impossible with Obama, and on top of that, it wouldn't be worth the paper it's signed on, as we've seen with the Iran deal.

Now, some bilateral stuff like the removal of tariffs on cars, that could happen.


I agree, a totally free trade agreement would be hard. Too many oppositions within the EU to, defacto, lower some of the quality standards. Oversimplified: US filosophy, if it isn't proven to be harmfull, it can be sold, EU filosophy, it needs to be proven safe, before it can be put on the selves. And there are other issue's as well, like the court of settlements. It doesn't matter if Trump is in power or its succesor.

So I agree that tarrifs on certain products might be taken down, but that's about it.


My view is that it will either be a tweaked/watered down version of the TTIP or just tariffs being removed from certain goods.

One thing is for certain, if Trump is still in power by the time such an agreement is signed (and I'd doubt that given how long this is likely to take) he'll spin it as good news one way or another regardless of the substance.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:06 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
One thing is for certain, if Trump is still in power by the time such an agreement is signed (and I'd doubt that given how long this is likely to take) he'll spin it as good news one way or another regardless of the substance.


That's a given :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:04 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... inter-time

Another example of EU democracy. Laws brought in on no manifesto and the voting public given no say whatsoever.
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:26 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/04/meps-vote-to-scrap-switch-from-summer-to-winter-time

Another example of EU democracy. Laws brought in on no manifesto and the voting public given no say whatsoever.


The law follows an open poll where millions cast their vote after being open for 6 weeks. And of course the committee was set up after a vote from the (elected) Parliament.

But why let facts get in the way of a good anti-EU rant.
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:27 pm

From the article you linked:

'The plans, which followed a consultation of 4 million people, still have to be agreed with EU member states and the full European parliament if they are to become law.'

For further reading I recommend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:55 pm

A3801000 wrote:
From the article you linked:

'The plans, which followed a consultation of 4 million people, still have to be agreed with EU member states and the full European parliament if they are to become law.'

For further reading I recommend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy


This is balls.

They did not ask 4 million people.

How were they asked?
How did they chose who to ask?

It is just bull****.

Unless it is emergency legislation, no laws should be brought in that have not appeared on a manifesto.

It is just another EU law, the public overwhelmingly had no say in. MEP’s voted in, in Romania and Bulgaria, influencing and dictating what has to be done on the other side of the continent.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:57 pm

JJJ wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/04/meps-vote-to-scrap-switch-from-summer-to-winter-time

Another example of EU democracy. Laws brought in on no manifesto and the voting public given no say whatsoever.


The law follows an open poll where millions cast their vote after being open for 6 weeks. And of course the committee was set up after a vote from the (elected) Parliament.

But why let facts get in the way of a good anti-EU rant.


So I could have had a say then?

Why did they not make members of the public aware of this?

4 weeks time we kiss the wretched EU away foreved. #countingdown
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:00 pm

It was really simple. you had a link in france on the french assemblée nationale with ten question to answer and give your choice. My wife and me voted that way last week.

It was known to all people that were interested and posted on a lot of news websites including for exemple a site like huffingtonpost that have a french version.
Last edited by Olddog on Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:01 pm

I am not going to quote the whole article you linked. Reading it might enlighten you and stop your from writing even more nonsense.
Let me guess: You also believe 'the EU' wanted to take your 3-pin-plug away and told the poor UK the exact curvature your bananas need to have, right?
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:09 pm

A3801000 wrote:
I am not going to quote the whole article you linked. Reading it might enlighten you and stop your from writing even more nonsense.
Let me guess: You also believe 'the EU' wanted to take your 3-pin-plug away and told the poor UK the exact curvature your bananas need to have, right?


Nothing will enlighten me such is my hatred of the EU.

UK laws should be decided by the UK.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:27 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Nothing will enlighten me such is my hatred of the EU.

UK laws should be decided by the UK.


What really annoys me are those rules being made on the Isle of Wight, by those elected MPs - dictating the laws of people the other side of the British Isles in Aberdeen.

Nothing will enlighten me until we resort to lords having precisence over the local tribes and imposing their feudal laws upon us!
 
bennett123
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:30 pm

Even in Westminster, legislation is introduced which was not in the Manifesto.

The alternative is putting through legislation which was relevant at the time of the election, but that 4 years later is not relevant any longer.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:30 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Nothing will enlighten me such is my hatred of the EU.


Finally, you say something which makes sense: your hatred blinds you for everything. EU=bad, everything from the EU=bad.

BTW, you say you are a civil servant, so you expect someone like you to know how representative democracy works, but I guess that is too much to ask of a member of her majesty civil servant corps. Or like I to believe, you are the exception to the rule and most understand how it works and that in general zero proposals are decided by the public and many things come up during a term which the public hasn't decided on or couldn't know at the time, so you choose the person whom you can believe can do the job and points the country (or EU in this case) in the direction you want.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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scbriml
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:57 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/04/meps-vote-to-scrap-switch-from-summer-to-winter-time

Another example of EU democracy. Laws brought in on no manifesto and the voting public given no say whatsoever.


And leavers coined the phrase "project fear"? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

noviorbis77 wrote:
Nothing will enlighten me such is my hatred of the EU.


Ah well, that explains a lot. :banghead:

So tell me, noviobis77, how has the UK being in the EU negatively impacted you?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:59 pm

scbriml wrote:
So tell me, noviobis77, how has the UK being in the EU negatively impacted you?


And also an interesting one, which directive of the EU will you want to see abolish straight away because it hurts your freedoms personally.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
scbriml wrote:
So tell me, noviobis77, how has the UK being in the EU negatively impacted you?


And also an interesting one, which directive of the EU will you want to see abolish straight away because it hurts your freedoms personally.

By his own admission he's an unelected, unaccountable bureaucrat himself, so any kind of public transparency or accountability will indeed hurt his freedoms to do whatever he pleases, and Brexit with its chaos all through the coming decades will give him not just perfect job security in the ballooning UK bureaucracy but also perfect cover from scrutiny by a fully occupied and distracted public. ;)
 
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seahawk
Posts: 8306
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:44 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/04/meps-vote-to-scrap-switch-from-summer-to-winter-time

Another example of EU democracy. Laws brought in on no manifesto and the voting public given no say whatsoever.


The law follows an open poll where millions cast their vote after being open for 6 weeks. And of course the committee was set up after a vote from the (elected) Parliament.

But why let facts get in the way of a good anti-EU rant.


So I could have had a say then?

Why did they not make members of the public aware of this?

4 weeks time we kiss the wretched EU away foreved. #countingdown


It is worse, 95% of the votes were made by Germans, as the voting option was only used by them. The Brits had no say and that is disgusting. The 29th can not come soon enough.

(actually it is true that a huge part of the votes were from Germans, as it was a big news item in Germany and people have strong opinions about it)
 
JJJ
Posts: 3164
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:13 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/04/meps-vote-to-scrap-switch-from-summer-to-winter-time

Another example of EU democracy. Laws brought in on no manifesto and the voting public given no say whatsoever.


The law follows an open poll where millions cast their vote after being open for 6 weeks. And of course the committee was set up after a vote from the (elected) Parliament.

But why let facts get in the way of a good anti-EU rant.


So I could have had a say then?

Why did they not make members of the public aware of this?


They did make members of the public aware by all possible means, if your press and your politicians decided not to pick it until after the results were published that's your entirely your problem.

https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/statu ... 8582881280

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45366390
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 751
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:15 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
I am not going to quote the whole article you linked. Reading it might enlighten you and stop your from writing even more nonsense.
Let me guess: You also believe 'the EU' wanted to take your 3-pin-plug away and told the poor UK the exact curvature your bananas need to have, right?


Nothing will enlighten me such is my hatred of the EU.

UK laws should be decided by the UK.


They are! {Jesus wept}
Take your head out your rectum and educate yourself properly before blindly "hating". A bunch of Farage soundbites and Sun quotes does not the truth make. Every single "Leave" argument/promise has been debunked, proven to be untrue, a blatant lie or impossible to achieve (not that there's any leave leaders around to provide their profound wisdom as to how to achieve their promised unicorns).

It's bell clapper terminal pieces like yourself which have dragged the UK into the gutter, under the guise of "making the UK great again" of course. Nothing but bigoted, uneducated, xenophobic claptrap, from a bunch of Turkey's voting for Christmas.
Last edited by ChrisKen on Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:27 am

JJJ wrote:
They did make members of the public aware by all possible means, if your press and your politicians decided not to pick it until after the results were published that's your entirely your problem.

https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/statu ... 8582881280

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45366390


and only 35% of the British eligible population (16.5 million people) turned up and voted at the last European elections in 2014...

As a country not really engaged in the European democratic process leading up to the democratic decisions we cannot then wholeheartedly complain about lack of democracy.
 
LJ
Posts: 4720
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:32 am

A3801000 wrote:
From the article you linked:

'The plans, which followed a consultation of 4 million people, still have to be agreed with EU member states and the full European parliament if they are to become law.'

For further reading I recommend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy


Sorry, but you do know that the majority of the voters were Germans and they were influenced by a radio station promoting the poll? NOt to mention than all the experts are against it (at least as far as it concerns having Summer time as the leading time). There is nothing democratic about this decision and is very bad for countries in NW Europe (especially my country, The Netherlands).
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:53 am

Richard28 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
They did make members of the public aware by all possible means, if your press and your politicians decided not to pick it until after the results were published that's your entirely your problem.

https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/statu ... 8582881280

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45366390


and only 35% of the British eligible population (16.5 million people) turned up and voted at the last European elections in 2014...

As a country not really engaged in the European democratic process leading up to the democratic decisions we cannot then wholeheartedly complain about lack of democracy.


This sums up a great deal of British attitude to the EU wonderfully. 'I hate the EU, it's undemocratic'. Here have a vote, choose your MEP to shape decisions and act on your behalf 'no thanks, I can't be arsed'. 2 month's later, 'I hate the EU, it's undemocratic'. But you can vote 'mumble mumble, bananas, fish, french farmers, germany is taking over, we won the war'.

sigh.


Dutchy wrote:
BTW, you say you are a civil servant, so you expect someone like you to know how representative democracy works, but I guess that is too much to ask of a member of her majesty civil servant corps. Or like I to believe, you are the exception to the rule and most understand how it works and that in general zero proposals are decided by the public and many things come up during a term which the public hasn't decided on or couldn't know at the time, so you choose the person whom you can believe can do the job and points the country (or EU in this case) in the direction you want.


My Dad was a Senior Civil Servant for 30 years. I met many of his colleagues and they were all intelligent and many considered world experts in their field. They had regular contact with the EU and travelled throughout Europe to assist other countries with legislation because of their experience. This was late 80's to mid 2000's. The ones I met who had similar views to our friend here were either ex Army or young, newer staff members in positions who never experienced working with EU colleagues. According to my Dad the quality of Civil Servants and the general attitude started to change a lot from mid 2000's onwards and a considerable brain drain started. It's in part why he retired early.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 17033
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:19 am

ChrisKen wrote:
It's bell clapper terminal pieces like yourself which have dragged the UK into the gutter, under the guise of "making the UK great again" of course. Nothing but bigoted, uneducated, xenophobic claptrap, from a bunch of Turkey's voting for Christmas.


Stop sitting on the fence, tell us what you really think! :rotfl:

Richard28 wrote:
As a country not really engaged in the European democratic process leading up to the democratic decisions we cannot then wholeheartedly complain about lack of democracy.


Doesn't stop the Brexiteers! :banghead:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10126
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:25 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
I am not going to quote the whole article you linked. Reading it might enlighten you and stop your from writing even more nonsense.
Let me guess: You also believe 'the EU' wanted to take your 3-pin-plug away and told the poor UK the exact curvature your bananas need to have, right?


Nothing will enlighten me such is my hatred of the EU.


Spoken like a true fundamentalist.

ChrisKen wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
I am not going to quote the whole article you linked. Reading it might enlighten you and stop your from writing even more nonsense.
Let me guess: You also believe 'the EU' wanted to take your 3-pin-plug away and told the poor UK the exact curvature your bananas need to have, right?


Nothing will enlighten me such is my hatred of the EU.

UK laws should be decided by the UK.


They are! {Jesus wept}
Take your head out your rectum and educate yourself properly before blindly "hating". A bunch of Farage soundbites and Sun quotes does not the truth make. Every single "Leave" argument/promise has been debunked, proven to be untrue, a blatant lie or impossible to achieve (not that there's any leave leaders around to provide their profound wisdom as to how to achieve their promised unicorns).

It's bell clapper terminal pieces like yourself which have dragged the UK into the gutter, under the guise of "making the UK great again" of course. Nothing but bigoted, uneducated, xenophobic claptrap, from a bunch of Turkey's voting for Christmas.


Imagine the whining once UK companies are leaving for the continent an mass, subsidizing their move will be legal in less than four weeks and the EU offers are far, far more interesting market, tax revenue drops and his public service job gets canned/public service pay adjusted...

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
A3801000
Posts: 556
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:57 am

LJ wrote:

Sorry, but you do know that the majority of the voters were Germans and they were influenced by a radio station promoting the poll?


1. It wasn't a vote, it was a 'consultation. 2.) I apologize to be part of a democratic process by making my voice heard and we will immediatley tell all our radio stations to NOT EVER AGAIN inform us about such a process and let the good folks from other countries have their way.

LJ wrote:
NOt to mention than all the experts are against it (at least as far as it concerns having Summer time as the leading time).


Some 'experts say keep summer time, some experts say keep winter time, some experts say keep changing the clocks every 6 month. Contrary to your belief I have no beef in this and could not care less.

LJ wrote:
There is nothing democratic about this decision


1.) a consultation of 4 million people
2.) The European parliament’s transport committee voted
3.) still have to be agreed with EU member states and the full European parliament if they are to become law.
4.) member states would be able to choose whether to remain on “permanent summer” or “permanent winter” time

LJ wrote:
and is very bad for countries in NW Europe (especially my country, The Netherlands).


"member states would be able to choose whether to remain on “permanent summer” or “permanent winter” time"
I can imagine a lot of countries will decide wrt their geographic location, same as in a single country where votes might be split between the mountain region and the coastal region. As in any democracy a vote will not make 100% of the population happy, no matter if on a state or EU level, maybe the final outcome will be to not change anything?

But to blame the EU, the Germans who participated in the consultations or a German radio station for making people aware of a consultation is just funny. Never thought of blaming your radio stations for NOT making you aware?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10126
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:23 pm

A3801000 wrote:
1.) a consultation of 4 million people
2.) The European parliament’s transport committee voted
3.) still have to be agreed with EU member states and the full European parliament if they are to become law.
4.) member states would be able to choose whether to remain on “permanent summer” or “permanent winter” time


That is undemocratic!!!
Democracy is being giving one vote, with no clear definition of what at least one of the options actually means, in an advisery referendum and pursue that as if life depended on it, with no other vote ever being taken on the subject...

LJ wrote:
and is very bad for countries in NW Europe (especially my country, The Netherlands).


"member states would be able to choose whether to remain on “permanent summer” or “permanent winter” time"
I can imagine a lot of countries will decide wrt their geographic location, same as in a single country where votes might be split between the mountain region and the coastal region. As in any democracy a vote will not make 100% of the population happy, no matter if on a state or EU level, maybe the final outcome will be to not change anything?


living 15 minutes away from the Netherlands i wonder why that would be a problem for them, but i am just peachy with it...... while i clearly prefer the current system and have cast my vote that way...

But to blame the EU, the Germans who participated in the consultations or a German radio station for making people aware of a consultation is just funny. Never thought of blaming your radio stations for NOT making you aware?


:checkmark: :checkmark: and :checkmark:
It was not just one Radio Station, it was everywhere....

Funny that the Baltic states and Finnland, the places where it probably would have the most effect, and that where "concerned" before the poll, somehow didn´t find it necessary to involve their media to inform their citizens... i am sure they would have jumped at that the same way German news media did.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
LJ
Posts: 4720
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:40 pm

A3801000 wrote:
LJ wrote:
There is nothing democratic about this decision


1.) a consultation of 4 million people


Which was not representative of the population of the EU (BTW I should have said that 83.6% of the respondents came from the German speaking countries of which 3.1mllion Germans).

A3801000 wrote:
2.) The European parliament’s transport committee voted

Whose interest is that there will be 1 timezone for the EU.

A3801000 wrote:
3.) still have to be agreed with EU member states and the full European parliament if they are to become law.

Yet every country acknowledges that the number of time differences should be limited. Moreover, when Germany and France go for Summer time, how can countries like Belgium and The Netherlands decide otherwise?

A3801000 wrote:
4.) member states would be able to choose whether to remain on “permanent summer” or “permanent winter” time

See above

A3801000 wrote:
But to blame the EU, the Germans who participated in the consultations or a German radio station for making people aware of a consultation is just funny. Never thought of blaming your radio stations for NOT making you aware?


They're not to blame, but it's the way the EU is selling this "consultation" to the public and itself ensures that people don't trust the EU. The consultation is not representative, thus no conclusions should be taken out of the consultation. Even worse, it's now putting oil on the fire by coming with this vote in the transport committee at such a crucial state in the Brexit process. Unless they're stupid, they should know this doesn't actually helps the Remain camp.
 
A3801000
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:48 pm

Heck, the EU decided to ask its people what they think. For reasons a lot of people in Germany knew and cared enough about it to participate while in other countries at least one was not the case. Again, it was only a consultation, people asked about their opinions.
I really don't get what your problem is, really. The EU has not sold this consultations to anyone or you say 'the EU' only told german speaking people about it and kept it a secret from you? Whose fault is it that you did not know? That you did not participate. And again, it was nothing but a 'consultation'.
Should the EU stop working until the UK has sorted out its mess? Is 'the EU' now supposed to consider if any decision taken is 'helping' anyone in a country that has decided to leave within 24 days?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:04 pm

Seattle is at about the 48th latitude. In winter it gets dark early, especially with cloud cover. Concern is getting kids and some workers home before dark PST. In the summer we treasure those evenings when civil sunset is close to PDT 10pm. The benefits of switching time are significantly less when you are much further north or south of that latitude. Or at least that is my suspicion.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:46 pm

A3801000 wrote:
Heck, the EU decided to ask its people what they think. For reasons a lot of people in Germany knew and cared enough about it to participate while in other countries at least one was not the case. Again, it was only a consultation, people asked about their opinions. I really don't get what your problem is, really. The EU has not sold this consultations to anyone or you say 'the EU' only told german speaking people about it and kept it a secret from you? Whose fault is it that you did not know? That you did not participate. And again, it was nothing but a 'consultation'.
Should the EU stop working until the UK has sorted out its mess? Is 'the EU' now supposed to consider if any decision taken is 'helping' anyone in a country that has decided to leave within 24 days?


If consultations have no status (which is incorrect as they're part of the process) than why is the EU pointing towards it in each communication about this subject. My problem is that you ignore the status of these "consultations" in the EU law making process. Though noviorbis77 exaggerated, he wasn't far off the mark that this "consultation" does have law making implications. In the business I'm in (Finance) you know that when the EU comes with a "consultation" you pick this up seriously because before you know it it's law (or a directive).

A3801000 wrote:
Whose fault is it that you did not know?


The EU's fault. Blaming that the media should have picked this up is really too easy.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:13 pm

LJ wrote:
The EU's fault. Blaming that the media should have picked this up is really too easy.


But what are the alternatives?

The EU as a democratic institution consulting with its citizens seems a correct approach to me.

The question it appears to me is how they could better inform citizens about the consultation and get citizens to engage in the process.

It seems with this they have largely relied on third parties (be that print media/social media/TV/radio etc) to get word out about this consultation. The only other way would have been an advertising campaign, which EU wide would have been incredibly expensive - and they would have been ridiculed for that also!

It is just a consultation - there are further steps before the commission makes a proposal to be voted on by MEP's.

Like all these things, it must be recognised that you can't please everybody all the time - the time change suits some and not others - just as the current arrangements work better for some than others.
 
Klaus
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:14 pm

LJ wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
Heck, the EU decided to ask its people what they think. For reasons a lot of people in Germany knew and cared enough about it to participate while in other countries at least one was not the case. Again, it was only a consultation, people asked about their opinions. I really don't get what your problem is, really. The EU has not sold this consultations to anyone or you say 'the EU' only told german speaking people about it and kept it a secret from you? Whose fault is it that you did not know? That you did not participate. And again, it was nothing but a 'consultation'.
Should the EU stop working until the UK has sorted out its mess? Is 'the EU' now supposed to consider if any decision taken is 'helping' anyone in a country that has decided to leave within 24 days?


If consultations have no status (which is incorrect as they're part of the process) than why is the EU pointing towards it in each communication about this subject. My problem is that you ignore the status of these "consultations" in the EU law making process. Though noviorbis77 exaggerated, he wasn't far off the mark that this "consultation" does have law making implications. In the business I'm in (Finance) you know that when the EU comes with a "consultation" you pick this up seriously because before you know it it's law (or a directive).

An ongoing consultation is just one indication of a legislative process being under way and you should never be complacent about ignoring any legislative processes which might be affecting you. If you're conducting a professional business it is generally your own obligation to keep yourself informed about the current state of affairs in your field.

A3801000 wrote:
Whose fault is it that you did not know?


The EU's fault. Blaming that the media should have picked this up is really too easy.

No, it is exactly right, because in modern democracies there are no mandatory governmental proclamations you as a citizen get rammed down your throat but it is on you to select news and information sources so you are up to date on what's going on, including what the government is doing, saying and planning.

Your whole argumentation is one of complacency and scapegoating of others for your own dereliction of your own self-interest.
 
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Loew
Posts: 111
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:31 pm

LJ wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
Heck, the EU decided to ask its people what they think. For reasons a lot of people in Germany knew and cared enough about it to participate while in other countries at least one was not the case. Again, it was only a consultation, people asked about their opinions. I really don't get what your problem is, really. The EU has not sold this consultations to anyone or you say 'the EU' only told german speaking people about it and kept it a secret from you? Whose fault is it that you did not know? That you did not participate. And again, it was nothing but a 'consultation'.
Should the EU stop working until the UK has sorted out its mess? Is 'the EU' now supposed to consider if any decision taken is 'helping' anyone in a country that has decided to leave within 24 days?


If consultations have no status (which is incorrect as they're part of the process) than why is the EU pointing towards it in each communication about this subject. My problem is that you ignore the status of these "consultations" in the EU law making process. Though noviorbis77 exaggerated, he wasn't far off the mark that this "consultation" does have law making implications. In the business I'm in (Finance) you know that when the EU comes with a "consultation" you pick this up seriously because before you know it it's law (or a directive).

A3801000 wrote:
Whose fault is it that you did not know?


The EU's fault. Blaming that the media should have picked this up is really too easy.


It is your fault. Public consulation is exactly that - public. Yet apparently you seem to be ignoring EU public consultation website and complaining later about not knowing that there are/were certain public consultations. Which is also quite surprising as just one line above, you are talking about your need to "pick up" public consultations because, "before you know it is a law or a directive".

Generally, in law there is a principle that public should be concerned about law in place as well as law in the making process. Public is therefore not supposed to sit down and wait until someone brings all the law at their doorstep, preferably on a silver platter. Hence another basic law principle is "Ignorantia iuris non excusat" or ignorance of law excuses no one. So at the end of the day you are supposed to be looking for new laws or public consultations which may lead to creation of a law contrary to waiting until the EU somehow brings the public consultation to your doorstep. I totally understand that this is probably a sign of a poor service or a democracy deficit to you, but this is how law works in every single democratic country, including The Netherlands.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Brexit part 5:Bye England! See you soon Scotland ?

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:41 pm

LJ wrote:
Moreover, when Germany and France go for Summer time, how can countries like Belgium and The Netherlands decide otherwise?


What would prevent Belgium and The Netherlands from keeping winter time?
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