Kiwirob
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Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:49 pm

This is one of the most vile crimes I can think of in recent memory. How could some scumbag do such a thing, and how could it have gone unnoticed for 9 months?

If ever there was an executitable offense this is it. They’ll be able to prove 100% who did it.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/us/arizo ... index.html

My next question is why was a brain dead women being kept alive for 14 years anyway?
 
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DL717
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:53 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
This is one of the most vile crimes I can think of in recent memory. How could some scumbag do such a thing, and how could it have gone unnoticed for 9 months?

If ever there was an executitable offense this is it. They’ll be able to prove 100% who did it.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/us/arizo ... index.html

My next question is why was a brain dead women being kept alive for 14 years anyway?


Gross. And people say we don’t need the death penalty anymore.
Putting one on ignore does not squelch speech or debate, it’s quiets the noise.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:47 pm

When i first clicked this thread I thought "wow how wonderful that they were able to save the baby after this person went into a coma from some tragic accident"

Now I'm horrified.

Also, I hate myself, but the first thing I thought after finishing the article was the scooby doo line "I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you that meddling kid(s)" :duck:
 
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casinterest
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:55 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
When i first clicked this thread I thought "wow how wonderful that they were able to save the baby after this person went into a coma from some tragic accident"

Now I'm horrified.

Also, I hate myself, but the first thing I thought after finishing the article was the scooby doo line "I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you that meddling kid(s)" :duck:


It is indeed Tragic. They have already fired the manager there, and I think they will find the culprit with DNA tests. Either way kind of scary when you have a loved one that doesn't have a Living will clause.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:08 pm

Even if they found out she was pregnant earlier, what could the management done, have her get an abortion ? Who knows if the baby won't have serious disabilities due to a lack of pre-natal care and the severe health condition of the mother. I just hope the rapist is determined, arrested, tried and convicted or pleas to a life sentence. There also needs to be a major change in all these facilities management as there seems to be lacking and putting the patients in grave danger, like the a acute care facility here in NJ that had a dozen disabled minors died due to a infectious illness that killed them and were not brought to a hospital or in time due to fear of losing revenues.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:06 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
If ever there was an executitable offense this is it. They’ll be able to prove 100% who did it.


Knowing who's semen impragnated her is very likely to tell you who did it, it still ain't 100%.

My next question is why was a brain dead women being kept alive for 14 years anyway?


Family wasn't ready to let her go, religious reasons, declared will prior to whatever got her there... myriads of possible reasons.

Best regards
Thomas
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Kiwirob
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:26 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
If ever there was an executitable offense this is it. They’ll be able to prove 100% who did it.


Knowing who's semen impragnated her is very likely to tell you who did it, it still ain't 100%.

My next question is why was a brain dead women being kept alive for 14 years anyway?


Family wasn't ready to let her go, religious reasons, declared will prior to whatever got her there... myriads of possible reasons.

Best regards
Thomas


Don’t be a donut Tommy, the DNA will point 100% to the piece of human excretement who did this, that’s person should be executed post haste, there’s not other possible sentence for such a horrible crime.

She was a teenager when she nearly drowned and turned into a brain dead vegetable. There’s no logical reason to keep someone alive in this state.
 
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:37 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
If ever there was an executitable offense this is it. They’ll be able to prove 100% who did it.


Knowing who's semen impragnated her is very likely to tell you who did it, it still ain't 100%.

My next question is why was a brain dead women being kept alive for 14 years anyway?


Family wasn't ready to let her go, religious reasons, declared will prior to whatever got her there... myriads of possible reasons.

Best regards
Thomas


Don’t be a donut Tommy, the DNA will point 100% to the piece of human excretement who did this, that’s person should be executed post haste, there’s not other possible sentence for such a horrible crime.


Someone needs to read up what 100% means..

She was a teenager when she nearly drowned and turned into a brain dead vegetable. There’s no logical reason to keep someone alive in this state.


Apparently someone had a reason, it does not matter if you or i are agreeing with that. I wouldn't want to be kept alive like that, but there isn't an indication doing so does any harm after all.

Best regards
Thomas
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Kiwirob
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:06 pm

It obviously done harm to this person, she was raped and had a baby, or don’t you get that?

As for not being 100% if it’s 99.9% this person raped her that’s more that good enough except for pedantic people like you.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:52 pm

Maybe it’s the new Jesus and a virgin birth?

Rapture is coming accordingly
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Dutchy
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:57 pm

Hideous crime.

Kiwirob wrote:
My next question is why was a brain dead women being kept alive for 14 years anyway?


Vegetative state isn't brain dead. If she is brain dead, she is dead.
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tommy1808
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:11 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
It obviously done harm to this person, she was raped and had a baby, or don’t you get that?


How to prevent rape? Kill women... awesome plan.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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scbriml
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:26 pm

DL717 wrote:
And people say we don’t need the death penalty anymore.


This is a horrible crime, but the maximum penalty for rape in Arizona is 28 years. If that's not enough to deter someone, then the death penalty is irrelevant (other than to satisfy a base desire for revenge, which most of the civilised World has moved on from).
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treetreeseven
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:36 pm

scbriml wrote:
DL717 wrote:
And people say we don’t need the death penalty anymore.


This is a horrible crime, but the maximum penalty for rape in Arizona is 28 years. If that's not enough to deter someone, then the death penalty is irrelevant (other than to satisfy a base desire for revenge, which most of the civilised World has moved on from).

No way the guy spends more than 10 inside, unless he has priors. Deterring rape simply is not a priority in American society.

ltbewr wrote:
There also needs to be a major change in all these facilities management as there seems to be lacking and putting the patients in grave danger, like the a acute care facility here in NJ that had a dozen disabled minors died due to a infectious illness that killed them and were not brought to a hospital or in time due to fear of losing revenues.

B-but muh privatized health care is the b-best in the worrrrrrrrrld!!! :cry2:

There was a story in the paper today here on the opposite side of the country about how a group home just closed after a resident was found to have rotting bedsores and subsequently lost over 25% of their weight due to surgery, infection, etc. The company which ran the place also handled privatized foster care (!) which had a 42% higher death rate (!!) than the national average death rate in foster care (!!!).

Again, it's about priorities.
 
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fallap
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:47 pm

DL717 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
This is one of the most vile crimes I can think of in recent memory. How could some scumbag do such a thing, and how could it have gone unnoticed for 9 months?

If ever there was an executitable offense this is it. They’ll be able to prove 100% who did it.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/us/arizo ... index.html

My next question is why was a brain dead women being kept alive for 14 years anyway?


Gross. And people say we don’t need the death penalty anymore.


Yes, we people still want the death penalty to be a thing of the past. This case will not change a thing, and will certainly not let any wicked lust for blood get the best of us, and have us demand the reintroduction of capital punishment.
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alfa164
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:22 pm

treetreeseven wrote:
No way the guy spends more than 10 inside, unless he has priors. Deterring rape simply is not a priority in American society.


In all likelihood, he will not make it out of prison alive. Some crimes are just too much for other inmates to stomach (think: Jeffrey Dahmer).
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Kiwirob
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:37 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
It obviously done harm to this person, she was raped and had a baby, or don’t you get that?


How to prevent rape? Kill women... awesome plan.

Best regards
Thomas


The Woman’s basically dead anyway, stopping feeding her would have ended her misery and this needless crime wouldn’t have happened.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:18 am

An interesting development in the case that may have Fourth Amendment complications. A warrant has been served to obtain DNA samples form all the males employed by the care facility.

So, every male is suspect, regardless of means, motive or opportunity? What about male visitors to the facility? Will the police broaden their net to include contractors, residents' family members, meter readers, etc. if the employee tests don't yield a match?

Is being a male and mere proximity probable cause?
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bagoldex
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:15 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Apparently someone had a reason, it does not matter if you or i are agreeing with that. I wouldn't want to be kept alive like that, but there isn't an indication doing so does any harm after all.


That depends on who's paying. Unless her family's cutting a check each week there's no reason for her to have been kept alive.
 
jcancel
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:23 am

The US Supreme.Court ruled that rape may only be punished with a death sentence if someone dies as a result.

Kiwirob wrote:
This is one of the most vile crimes I can think of in recent memory. How could some scumbag do such a thing, and how could it have gone unnoticed for 9 months?

If ever there was an executitable offense this is it. They’ll be able to prove 100% who did it.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/us/arizo ... index.html

My next question is why was a brain dead women being kept alive for 14 years anyway?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:09 am

bagoldex wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Apparently someone had a reason, it does not matter if you or i are agreeing with that. I wouldn't want to be kept alive like that, but there isn't an indication doing so does any harm after all.


That depends on who's paying. Unless her family's cutting a check each week there's no reason for her to have been kept alive.


Most likely either private or by an insurance company with a policy that requires them to do so. In both cases no harm done.

Best regards
Thomas
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DL717
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:20 am

fallap wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
This is one of the most vile crimes I can think of in recent memory. How could some scumbag do such a thing, and how could it have gone unnoticed for 9 months?

If ever there was an executitable offense this is it. They’ll be able to prove 100% who did it.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/09/us/arizo ... index.html

My next question is why was a brain dead women being kept alive for 14 years anyway?


Gross. And people say we don’t need the death penalty anymore.


Yes, we people still want the death penalty to be a thing of the past. This case will not change a thing, and will certainly not let any wicked lust for blood get the best of us, and have us demand the reintroduction of capital punishment.


I imagine you’ll feel that way right up until the point someone you love gets hurt in such a heinous manner.
Putting one on ignore does not squelch speech or debate, it’s quiets the noise.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:24 am

DL717 wrote:
fallap wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Gross. And people say we don’t need the death penalty anymore.


Yes, we people still want the death penalty to be a thing of the past. This case will not change a thing, and will certainly not let any wicked lust for blood get the best of us, and have us demand the reintroduction of capital punishment.


I imagine you’ll feel that way right up until the point someone you love gets hurt in such a heinous manner.


And you know he doesn't know anyone that had fallen victim to a heinous crime how?

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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DL717
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:28 am

tommy1808 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
fallap wrote:

Yes, we people still want the death penalty to be a thing of the past. This case will not change a thing, and will certainly not let any wicked lust for blood get the best of us, and have us demand the reintroduction of capital punishment.


I imagine you’ll feel that way right up until the point someone you love gets hurt in such a heinous manner.


And you know he doesn't know anyone that had fallen victim to a heinous crime how?

Best regards
Thomas


Generally speaking, people change their views on this rather abruptly following such an event.
Putting one on ignore does not squelch speech or debate, it’s quiets the noise.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:33 am

DL717 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

I imagine you’ll feel that way right up until the point someone you love gets hurt in such a heinous manner.


And you know he doesn't know anyone that had fallen victim to a heinous crime how?

Best regards
Thomas


Generally speaking, people change their views on this rather abruptly following such an event.


I know plenty of people that are after heinous crimes, up and including being gang raped or fallen victim to other violent crimes, including myself, none of which shares your passion to fight crime with murder, most of which don't even support life long imprisonment. One of them, raped by a state trooper, is even quite satisfied that he isn't in prison, but lost job and pension and has to get by on a shitty minimum wage mall security guard job. A mall she frequents....

Best regards
Thomas
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fallap
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Re: Woman in Coma Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:05 am

DL717 wrote:
fallap wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Gross. And people say we don’t need the death penalty anymore.


Yes, we people still want the death penalty to be a thing of the past. This case will not change a thing, and will certainly not let any wicked lust for blood get the best of us, and have us demand the reintroduction of capital punishment.


I imagine you’ll feel that way right up until the point someone you love gets hurt in such a heinous crime


Well, I honestly can't say, maybe I would furious and demand their heads on a plate, or I would take a deep breath and continue my belief in a civilised society where we lock people up rather than letting them face an executioner. I guess I will only know if that (heaven forbid) happens.

I am still firm in my belief that death penalty has no place in a modern civilised society, we did away with the penalty in 1930 and had our last execution by law in 1892.
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OA412
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:36 pm

fr8mech wrote:
An interesting development in the case that may have Fourth Amendment complications. A warrant has been served to obtain DNA samples form all the males employed by the care facility.

So, every male is suspect, regardless of means, motive or opportunity? What about male visitors to the facility? Will the police broaden their net to include contractors, residents' family members, meter readers, etc. if the employee tests don't yield a match?

Is being a male and mere proximity probable cause?

Without having seen the warrant, I would assume that males employed by the care facility were the only men with the ability to be alone with her. Moreover, there may be probable cause to believe that it was an employee, and not a visitor, contractor, etc.
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casinterest
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:38 pm

OA412 wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
An interesting development in the case that may have Fourth Amendment complications. A warrant has been served to obtain DNA samples form all the males employed by the care facility.

So, every male is suspect, regardless of means, motive or opportunity? What about male visitors to the facility? Will the police broaden their net to include contractors, residents' family members, meter readers, etc. if the employee tests don't yield a match?

Is being a male and mere proximity probable cause?

Without having seen the warrant, I would assume that males employed by the care facility were the only men with the ability to be alone with her. Moreover, there may be probable cause to believe that it was an employee, and not a visitor, contractor, etc.


I see the 4th amendment issue that fr8mech is bringing up, It will be interesting to see if a judge grants a warrant. Also what about those that have left the vicinity in the last 9 months.
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trpmb6
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:52 pm

OA412 wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
An interesting development in the case that may have Fourth Amendment complications. A warrant has been served to obtain DNA samples form all the males employed by the care facility.

So, every male is suspect, regardless of means, motive or opportunity? What about male visitors to the facility? Will the police broaden their net to include contractors, residents' family members, meter readers, etc. if the employee tests don't yield a match?

Is being a male and mere proximity probable cause?

Without having seen the warrant, I would assume that males employed by the care facility were the only men with the ability to be alone with her. Moreover, there may be probable cause to believe that it was an employee, and not a visitor, contractor, etc.


This is one of the tough things about the 4th amendment. On the one hand, anyone who was innocent would logically think, screw it, I'll volunteer my DNA just to get me off any list. But you also shouldn't *have* to do that either. And it gets to the point where you kind of rely on that notion to guilt everyone into doing it voluntarily.

Anyways, in this case, the press release mentioned that they do not have any specific targets in mind yet. So it seems to me that a blanket DNA request is problematic. Additionally, there are a ton of hypothetical scenarios still available that could have nothing to do with employees at the facility. They will find the person who did this. I'm sure they're making a list up and conducting interviews. (Actually, surely they've been conducting interviews and trying to figure this out for the last 8-7 ish months right? I mean it's not like a baby just came out and nobody noticed...) They'll find the bastard who did this, hopefully without trampling upon the rights of others.
 
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:09 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
They will find the person who did this. I'm sure they're making a list up and conducting interviews. (Actually, surely they've been conducting interviews and trying to figure this out for the last 8-7 ish months right? I mean it's not like a baby just came out and nobody noticed...) .


Based on the story, no one knew until the baby was born. At least those outside the facility.
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OA412
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:10 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
OA412 wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
An interesting development in the case that may have Fourth Amendment complications. A warrant has been served to obtain DNA samples form all the males employed by the care facility.

So, every male is suspect, regardless of means, motive or opportunity? What about male visitors to the facility? Will the police broaden their net to include contractors, residents' family members, meter readers, etc. if the employee tests don't yield a match?

Is being a male and mere proximity probable cause?

Without having seen the warrant, I would assume that males employed by the care facility were the only men with the ability to be alone with her. Moreover, there may be probable cause to believe that it was an employee, and not a visitor, contractor, etc.


This is one of the tough things about the 4th amendment. On the one hand, anyone who was innocent would logically think, screw it, I'll volunteer my DNA just to get me off any list. But you also shouldn't *have* to do that either. And it gets to the point where you kind of rely on that notion to guilt everyone into doing it voluntarily.

Anyways, in this case, the press release mentioned that they do not have any specific targets in mind yet. So it seems to me that a blanket DNA request is problematic. Additionally, there are a ton of hypothetical scenarios still available that could have nothing to do with employees at the facility. They will find the person who did this. I'm sure they're making a list up and conducting interviews. (Actually, surely they've been conducting interviews and trying to figure this out for the last 8-7 ish months right? I mean it's not like a baby just came out and nobody noticed...) They'll find the bastard who did this, hopefully without trampling upon the rights of others.

I have not yet read the press release. If indeed they're saying they don't have anyone in mind, then I would agree this does come across as a blanket request, and it will probably run into 4th amendment concerns unless the scope is narrowed.
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scbriml
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:18 pm

So, if I volunteer to have my DNA tested and am eliminated from the investigation, what happens to my police DNA record?
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Kiwirob
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:56 pm

scbriml wrote:
So, if I volunteer to have my DNA tested and am eliminated from the investigation, what happens to my police DNA record?


My guess is it’s probably kept on file. I don’t see a problem with DNA testing babies and it becomes part of there perminant profile, along with there personal number.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:02 pm

scbriml wrote:
So, if I volunteer to have my DNA tested and am eliminated from the investigation, what happens to my police DNA record?


Generally speaking, I do not believe the Police ever receive your DNA identifiers. I believe the lab receives your sample, and compares it to the sample provided by the other party. They then produce a report saying how much of a percentage match it is to provide to the investigators. I lab would be required to keep up to date with standards and do multiple standard tests every so often to validate their methods and lab equipment/machines. Similar to what a police department would have to do with their breathalyzer equipment to ensure it doesn't produce false positives/negatives. It's actually a legal strategy to attack the labs/equipment - find a piece of equipment that wasn't verified through testing or missed one date or has missing paperwork and you have inadmissible evidence.

Anyways, TLDR, I think the lab is in complete control of the sample, probably ordered to maintain the sample for a certain period of time and then destroy it.

The tin foil hat version: The labs send all the DNA they collect to a 3 letter agency to make clones of us to populate Mars.
 
PhilBy
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:16 pm

Given those demanding capital punishment and...

accepting that the father of the child is clearly in need of serious therapy....

in a country where a key component of the legal system is redress of damages...

what mental or physical trauma has the victim suffered?
If she were to recover tomorrow, without reading the press reports, what ill would she feel that she has suffered?
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:17 pm

PhilBy wrote:
If she were to recover tomorrow, without reading the press reports, what ill would she feel that she has suffered?


rape is rape.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:24 pm

I will guess that they will get a number of samples voluntarily and then those who don't sample can be obtained if needed from everyday items they leave around.

A voluntary aspect will reduce the pool.

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PhilBy
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:38 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
PhilBy wrote:
If she were to recover tomorrow, without reading the press reports, what ill would she feel that she has suffered?


rape is rape.


Indeed, and rarely carries a death sentence!

If the man had raped a fully conscious woman she would have required months on councelling and spent the rest of her life sleeping with the lights on and suffering. He would have spent maybe a decade in confinement. If the offende public had their say he would also have been sterilised!

Because this man chose to rape a woman who will probably suffer no long term ill effects he must be executed!
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:08 pm

PhilBy wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
PhilBy wrote:
If she were to recover tomorrow, without reading the press reports, what ill would she feel that she has suffered?


rape is rape.


Indeed, and rarely carries a death sentence!

If the man had raped a fully conscious woman she would have required months on councelling and spent the rest of her life sleeping with the lights on and suffering. He would have spent maybe a decade in confinement. If the offende public had their say he would also have been sterilised!

Because this man chose to rape a woman who will probably suffer no long term ill effects he must be executed!


Sorry, I misunderstood the point you were making. I thought you were trying to say that her not being aware of the rape somehow made it less severe. My mistake.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 12437
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:14 pm

OA412 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
OA412 wrote:
Without having seen the warrant, I would assume that males employed by the care facility were the only men with the ability to be alone with her. Moreover, there may be probable cause to believe that it was an employee, and not a visitor, contractor, etc.


This is one of the tough things about the 4th amendment. On the one hand, anyone who was innocent would logically think, screw it, I'll volunteer my DNA just to get me off any list. But you also shouldn't *have* to do that either. And it gets to the point where you kind of rely on that notion to guilt everyone into doing it voluntarily.

Anyways, in this case, the press release mentioned that they do not have any specific targets in mind yet. So it seems to me that a blanket DNA request is problematic. Additionally, there are a ton of hypothetical scenarios still available that could have nothing to do with employees at the facility. They will find the person who did this. I'm sure they're making a list up and conducting interviews. (Actually, surely they've been conducting interviews and trying to figure this out for the last 8-7 ish months right? I mean it's not like a baby just came out and nobody noticed...) They'll find the bastard who did this, hopefully without trampling upon the rights of others.

I have not yet read the press release. If indeed they're saying they don't have anyone in mind, then I would agree this does come across as a blanket request, and it will probably run into 4th amendment concerns unless the scope is narrowed.


I am sure they have video evidence who was in the vicinity and or in her room and using the gestation as a timeline will have a group of who could have possibility dons this.
See that Broccoli over there? It's racist!
 
ltbewr
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:21 am

Apparently this woman is a Native American, has been in the facility since she was 2-3 years old, has paraplegia, seizure disorders and respiratory problems, likely a 'ward of the state' to use the common legal term, so her care paid for by the state medicaid program. https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/wom ... 12482.html
Yes, there is a serious problem with collecting DNA samples from a 4th Amendment legal point, but perhaps some narrowing down of possible suspects could be done to meet the 4th Amendment standards.
 
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Berevoff
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:43 am

ltbewr wrote:
Apparently this woman is a Native American, has been in the facility since she was 2-3 years old, has paraplegia, seizure disorders and respiratory problems, likely a 'ward of the state' to use the common legal term, so her care paid for by the state medicaid program. https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/wom ... 12482.html
Yes, there is a serious problem with collecting DNA samples from a 4th Amendment legal point, but perhaps some narrowing down of possible suspects could be done to meet the 4th Amendment standards.


If this isn't a case for euthanasia what are we even doing as a society? We could have built a new wing of a hospital with the funds wasted on this woman.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:57 am

Tugger wrote:
I will guess that they will get a number of samples voluntarily and then those who don't sample can be obtained if needed from everyday items they leave around.

A voluntary aspect will reduce the pool.

Tugg


:checkmark:
When such is done here law enforcement asks for voluntary samples and usually gets a lot Often also from the perp btw. They then talk to the people that didn't volunteer a sample as to why they didn't and check out the reasoning. That process most of the time allows to establish enough to allow to get a warrant.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:30 am

tommy1808 wrote:
They then talk to the people that didn't volunteer a sample as to why they didn't and check out the reasoning. That process most of the time allows to establish enough to allow to get a warrant.


What if the answer is "because I don't have to"? Should that be enough to establish probable cause to obtain a warrant?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:47 am

fr8mech wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
They then talk to the people that didn't volunteer a sample as to why they didn't and check out the reasoning. That process most of the time allows to establish enough to allow to get a warrant.


What if the answer is "because I don't have to"? Should that be enough to establish probable cause to obtain a warrant?


No. I didn't say it should. Unless of course you are the last one and law enforcement can establish that a perpetrator from outside that group is unlikely to the satisfaction of a court.
Generally law enforcement by elimination should be the exception, but can establish probable cause.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
mham001
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:00 pm

Possible they can take the baby's DNA and back trace through genealogy records. This can get them close enough to determine a suspect and build a case.

As for collecting DNA, once the police have it, they're not letting go. If somebody of interest refuses, they just get it another way, it's not that difficult and doesn't need a warrant.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:32 pm

They have arrested someone. A very sick person.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/23/health/a ... index.html
A 36-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of impregnating woman in a vegetative state who gave birth last month at a Phoenix health care facility, Phoenix Police Chief Jeri Williams said Wednesday.

Nathan Sutherland, a licensed practical nurse who was caring for the woman at the Hacienda HealthCare facility, has been arrested and is being booked on preliminary charges of sexual assault and vulnerable-adult abuse, Williams said.

Sutherland's DNA "matched the baby" when crime lab technicians tested it Tuesday, Phoenix police Sgt. Tommy Thompson said.
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Kiwirob
Topic Author
Posts: 11916
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:50 pm

Berevoff wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Apparently this woman is a Native American, has been in the facility since she was 2-3 years old, has paraplegia, seizure disorders and respiratory problems, likely a 'ward of the state' to use the common legal term, so her care paid for by the state medicaid program. https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/wom ... 12482.html
Yes, there is a serious problem with collecting DNA samples from a 4th Amendment legal point, but perhaps some narrowing down of possible suspects could be done to meet the 4th Amendment standards.


If this isn't a case for euthanasia what are we even doing as a society? We could have built a new wing of a hospital with the funds wasted on this woman.


Two right, we wouldn’t treat an animal this poorly so why do we do this to a human? My grandfather lived like this for his last couple of years, we all hoped he would pass quickly but he didn’t, it was a horrible ending.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3200
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:15 am

casinterest wrote:
They have arrested someone. A very sick person.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/23/health/a ... index.html
A 36-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of impregnating woman in a vegetative state who gave birth last month at a Phoenix health care facility, Phoenix Police Chief Jeri Williams said Wednesday.

Nathan Sutherland, a licensed practical nurse who was caring for the woman at the Hacienda HealthCare facility, has been arrested and is being booked on preliminary charges of sexual assault and vulnerable-adult abuse, Williams said.

Sutherland's DNA "matched the baby" when crime lab technicians tested it Tuesday, Phoenix police Sgt. Tommy Thompson said.


I'm not sure this guy did it. I don't see how he could possibly be a nurse -- he looks like some special needs homeless dude they picked up off the street. Either there is some sort of conspiracy or Hacienda Health has virtually no hiring standards.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Woman in Vegetative State Gives Birth!

Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:18 am

usflyer msp wrote:
I'm not sure this guy did it. I don't see how he could possibly be a nurse -- he looks like some special needs homeless dude they picked up off the street. Either there is some sort of conspiracy or Hacienda Health has virtually no hiring standards.


Are you kidding me? You're basing your objection on a mug shot. Hell, they may have dragged him out of bed and arrested him.

Next, he's an LPN, not an RN. Not that it makes that much of a difference, but the training and bar for licensing is much lower for LPN vs. RN.

Further, have you ever been in a long-term care facility? I don't want to paint with too broad a brush, there are many wonderful, competent people that care for people in these facilities, but these types of facilities don't usually draw the "cream-of-the-crop". We used to pay many "visits" to the long-term care facilities in our district.

We once made a run to one of these facilities...unconscious, unresponsive, CPR in progress. When we arrived, a pair of LPN's were performing "CPR" on a "patient" that was awake, alert and sitting up in bed.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.

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