zakuivcustom
Posts: 2022
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:53 am

Jouhou wrote:
Also considering we are talking about a hypothetical war with China, I'm pretty sure our bases in Japan and South Korea are as good as super carriers in that situation.


If a certain Individual-1 in Mar-a-Lago doesn't decide to just pull all the troops out of Japan & SK, that is. It's definitely part of his "America first" mantra that thinks US is just wasting money "protecting" other nations anyway.

Cerecl wrote:
Reality check: Admiral Luo is a 69yo Rear Admiral who has not held significant commanding position in his active service career. He is a known hawk who is the former deputy head of a department of a military academy (He would have retired from admin position due to his age). Equating his position/opinion with that of Chinese military/government is pretty foolish IMO.


This sums it up. Maybe people should do their research next time as to who's speaking?

Emperor Xi is a dictator, but he ain't reckless or stupid. Slowly increasing aggression to push the line is the Chinese military mantra - they're playing a chess game, and that's actually more dangerous in the long run anyway b/c you never know what's coming. Putin did the same and look how far it's getting him now.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:01 am

Jouhou wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

The United States Navy has 20 aircraft carriers for all practical purposes. How many can the Chinese field?


That figure of "20" is sort of cheating. It's our fleet of super carriers that makes us unique in how we can project military power.


That last part about the super carriers is correct, but why wouldn't you count the Wasp class? They're as big or bigger as what runs as a fully fledged aircraft carrier in other countries.
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1743
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:18 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Also considering we are talking about a hypothetical war with China, I'm pretty sure our bases in Japan and South Korea are as good as super carriers in that situation.


If a certain Individual-1 in Mar-a-Lago doesn't decide to just pull all the troops out of Japan & SK, that is. It's definitely part of his "America first" mantra that thinks US is just wasting money "protecting" other nations anyway.

Cerecl wrote:
Reality check: Admiral Luo is a 69yo Rear Admiral who has not held significant commanding position in his active service career. He is a known hawk who is the former deputy head of a department of a military academy (He would have retired from admin position due to his age). Equating his position/opinion with that of Chinese military/government is pretty foolish IMO.


This sums it up. Maybe people should do their research next time as to who's speaking?

Emperor Xi is a dictator, but he ain't reckless or stupid. Slowly increasing aggression to push the line is the Chinese military mantra - they're playing a chess game, and that's actually more dangerous in the long run anyway b/c you never know what's coming. Putin did the same and look how far it's getting him now.


The president is a literal Narcissist. South Korean and Japanese cultures (especially in a diplomatic setting) are too polite to set him off (Remember that awkward handshake with Abe?)

Meanwhile Taiwan figured out pretty much immediately that he's completely ignorant of east asian politics and is like a bull in a China shop (Pun intended?) when it comes to the weird diplomatic dance the US been doing for decades in regards to the PRC and Taiwan. As a fan of Taiwan, I find it to be one of the few good things about Trump because he doesn't seem to mind helping Taiwan (and acknowledging its existence as a separate entity from China) as long as they want to buy weapons from us, build big factories in Wisconsin, and stroke his ego. Giving further acknowledgement of Taiwan's independence like he has without regard to the PRCs feelings on the matter normalizes the idea on the global stage. He may draw the PRCs ire but towards a president the US is likely going to wash it's hands of thoroughly anyways when he leaves office (whichever way that might come about)
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1743
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:21 am

aviationaware wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

The United States Navy has 20 aircraft carriers for all practical purposes. How many can the Chinese field?


That figure of "20" is sort of cheating. It's our fleet of super carriers that makes us unique in how we can project military power.


That last part about the super carriers is correct, but why wouldn't you count the Wasp class? They're as big or bigger as what runs as a fully fledged aircraft carrier in other countries.


That's exactly my point, they are similar to what other countries have in their fleets, thus they don't give us an advantage that is particularly unique.

Also not having to rely on foreign ports for fuel (an advantage of nuclear ships) comes in handy for operating *anywhere* in the world.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2022
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:46 am

Jouhou wrote:
Meanwhile Taiwan figured out pretty much immediately that he's completely ignorant of east asian politics and is like a bull in a China shop (Pun intended?) when it comes to the weird diplomatic dance the US been doing for decades in regards to the PRC and Taiwan. As a fan of Taiwan, I find it to be one of the few good things about Trump because he doesn't seem to mind helping Taiwan (and acknowledging its existence as a separate entity from China) as long as they want to buy weapons from us, build big factories in Wisconsin, and stroke his ego. Giving further acknowledgement of Taiwan's independence like he has without regard to the PRCs feelings on the matter normalizes the idea on the global stage. He may draw the PRCs ire but towards a president the US is likely going to wash it's hands of thoroughly anyways when he leaves office (whichever way that might come about)


Getting somewhat off topic, but too bad money ultimately talks and of course, Taiwan just go back to the "PRC ass-kisser" aka KMT again. Yes, DPP is useless and corrupt, but you can also thank that PRC propaganda machine and demonized DPP (and Tsai) on all of Taiwan's woe (Most of which are results of greedy businesspeople taking all the industries to mainland anyway. Sounds familiar?)

And for me, the problem that Drumpf is totally ignorant of East Asian politics also pissed me off at the same time. Want to REALLY hurt PRC? What about create internal strife within PRC, i.e. outright supporting Taiwan, follow by strengthening SK and Japan and be much more friendly with Philippines and Vietnam (etc.) and all those nations around South China Sea. Nope, he decided to piss off everybody in the region.

The one that's definitely playing the game well is fatty Kim anyway. He knows Drumpf is so easy to be manipulated, and thus, fatty Kim can just act like he's pleasing US by stopping nuke testing, make some empty promises, Drumpf gets to claim he "solved" the N. Korea problem, fatty Kim gets the resources, and it's a win-win.
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1743
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:59 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Meanwhile Taiwan figured out pretty much immediately that he's completely ignorant of east asian politics and is like a bull in a China shop (Pun intended?) when it comes to the weird diplomatic dance the US been doing for decades in regards to the PRC and Taiwan. As a fan of Taiwan, I find it to be one of the few good things about Trump because he doesn't seem to mind helping Taiwan (and acknowledging its existence as a separate entity from China) as long as they want to buy weapons from us, build big factories in Wisconsin, and stroke his ego. Giving further acknowledgement of Taiwan's independence like he has without regard to the PRCs feelings on the matter normalizes the idea on the global stage. He may draw the PRCs ire but towards a president the US is likely going to wash it's hands of thoroughly anyways when he leaves office (whichever way that might come about)


Getting somewhat off topic, but too bad money ultimately talks and of course, Taiwan just go back to the "PRC ass-kisser" aka KMT again. Yes, DPP is useless and corrupt, but you can also thank that PRC propaganda machine and demonized DPP (and Tsai) on all of Taiwan's woe (Most of which are results of greedy businesspeople taking all the industries to mainland anyway. Sounds familiar?)

And for me, the problem that Drumpf is totally ignorant of East Asian politics also pissed me off at the same time. Want to REALLY hurt PRC? What about create internal strife within PRC, i.e. outright supporting Taiwan, follow by strengthening SK and Japan and be much more friendly with Philippines and Vietnam (etc.) and all those nations around South China Sea. Nope, he decided to piss off everybody in the region.

The one that's definitely playing the game well is fatty Kim anyway. He knows Drumpf is so easy to be manipulated, and thus, fatty Kim can just act like he's pleasing US by stopping nuke testing, make some empty promises, Drumpf gets to claim he "solved" the N. Korea problem, fatty Kim gets the resources, and it's a win-win.


It's not that off topic though, because it has everything to do to with tensions in the "South China sea". Taiwan is just one of many countries the PRC pushes around in the area. But it's also one of the "territorial" issues China is most belligerent and dangerous about. I honestly at this point I think it's just about "Saving face" for China though, Taiwan has deviated greatly over the years in terms of culture and society, it would be a disaster for China to try Integrating Taiwan, even if Taiwan rejoined willingly.

It would be wiser for China to just accept Taiwan as something like a rebellious child of their country, recognizing their independence, and using the deep ethnic ties with Taiwan to work with them synergistically like a *mature* global super power would do. How China handles their territorial issues appears foolish and immature to the West but I think in their eyes it is a matter pride and never making concessions to any threat to their perceived national unity.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2022
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:20 am

Jouhou wrote:
I think in their eyes it is a matter pride and never making concessions to any threat to their perceived national unity.


And that's exactly the problem - they HAVE to insist on the "one country" part b/c Taiwan is "their" land. Well, they're floating "one country, two system" solution again, but knowing how "well" it's working for HK right now, Taiwanese is going to just outright reject it as expected.

Jouhou wrote:
it would be a disaster for China to try Integrating Taiwan, even if Taiwan rejoined willingly.


They can barely integrate HK, and more or less has to "force" their way through nowaday (with helps from useless HK politicians). The cultural crushes are still there and is only getting worse, HK society right now is just as fracture as US political system, and IMHO, HK is dying a slow death just b/c of all the so-call "integration" (Will people wake up? Nope...too many idiots). So yes, if they want 3x the disaster, then they can try and integrate Taiwan, where the oppositions are even more fierce, and Taiwan can actually hold on its own, unlike tiny HK whose economy had long been dependent on PRC (Just differently nowaday - used to be the gateway for the "west" to head into PRC, nowaday as a gateway for PRC people to get their money out of mainland and "park" it in HK. Surprise that HK housing price is coming down lately since PRC tighten up their money outflow? I'm not).
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1743
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:50 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
I think in their eyes it is a matter pride and never making concessions to any threat to their perceived national unity.


And that's exactly the problem - they HAVE to insist on the "one country" part b/c Taiwan is "their" land. Well, they're floating "one country, two system" solution again, but knowing how "well" it's working for HK right now, Taiwanese is going to just outright reject it as expected.

Jouhou wrote:
it would be a disaster for China to try Integrating Taiwan, even if Taiwan rejoined willingly.


They can barely integrate HK, and more or less has to "force" their way through nowaday (with helps from useless HK politicians). The cultural crushes are still there and is only getting worse, HK society right now is just as fracture as US political system, and IMHO, HK is dying a slow death just b/c of all the so-call "integration" (Will people wake up? Nope...too many idiots). So yes, if they want 3x the disaster, then they can try and integrate Taiwan, where the oppositions are even more fierce, and Taiwan can actually hold on its own, unlike tiny HK whose economy had long been dependent on PRC (Just differently nowaday - used to be the gateway for the "west" to head into PRC, nowaday as a gateway for PRC people to get their money out of mainland and "park" it in HK. Surprise that HK housing price is coming down lately since PRC tighten up their money outflow? I'm not).


I almost cited Hong Kong as evidence that Taiwan could not and should not be made a part of the PRC, but you seemed to be well versed enough in these matters that it didn't need saying. I am not Chinese so it's hard to wrap my head around the PRCs mentality, but I do think that treating Taiwan as a "child" would be a way out without appearing weak. Acting as a strong adult deciding they should allow their child to have their independence but sharing a strong bond would leave them appearing to still have the upper hand.

Judging from your stances and knowledge of both US and Taiwanese politics I'm guessing you might be Taiwanese-American? Or you could be like me, where I happened to pass through the PRC on my way to Taiwan and got to see the extreme night-and-day difference between the two countries, making the impact of the PRCs government very clear considering Taiwan's population is mostly Han Chinese. As much as Taiwanese politics might swing in regards to relations with China though, from my perspective the people of Taiwan are way to comfortable with their lifestyles to ever in reality become a part of "China" and if that ever came close to being a reality, people would reconsider.

Mostly though, I found it really easy to find Friends in Taiwan by telling people how much China sucks and all of the ways Taiwan was better (and I was not lying, the PRC left me excited about little things like Taxi Drivers being bound by the rule of law. Also people in Taiwan grasp the concept of standing in a line.)

tl;dr Taiwanese may romanticize mainland China, but realistically everyone in Taiwan would be sacrificing a whole lot for nothing if they were to willingly become "one country"

To tie that tangent back into the thread though, the world has walked on eggshells for decades regarding the issue because it's long been thought that of all of China's disputes in the area of the South China sea, Taiwan was always the potential flashpoint that could start world war 3.
 
Cerecl
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:22 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:03 am

zakuivcustom wrote:

Getting somewhat off topic, but too bad money ultimately talks and of course, Taiwan just go back to the "PRC ass-kisser" aka KMT again. Yes, DPP is useless and corrupt, but you can also thank that PRC propaganda machine and demonized DPP (and Tsai) on all of Taiwan's woe (Most of which are results of greedy businesspeople taking all the industries to mainland anyway. Sounds familiar?)

And for me, the problem that Drumpf is totally ignorant of East Asian politics also pissed me off at the same time. Want to REALLY hurt PRC? What about create internal strife within PRC, i.e. outright supporting Taiwan, follow by strengthening SK and Japan and be much more friendly with Philippines and Vietnam (etc.) and all those nations around South China Sea. Nope, he decided to piss off everybody in the region.

I disagree with two of your points. First, DPP is far more ineffective than you give them "credit" for. With KMT decimated in 2016, they had unprecedented level of power/control in Taiwan. Instead of utilising this power to achieve goals for Taiwan, they proceeded to spend most the following two year pissing off everyone except deep-green supporters. In the mean time PRC adopted a more sophisticated policy towards Taiwan. You overestimated the effect of "demonisation" by the Mainland and underestimated the intelligence of Taiwanese people. I think you characterised KMT as "ass-lickers" unfairly. It is true that they are more friendly towards the mainland but they are a long way from being a puppet as the DPP actually demonised the previously KMT president. At least KMT has a workable Mainland policy, all DPP has is a policy from another era which has a snowball in hell's chance of actually being achieved.

The second point is that everything you suggested that would cause internal strife in China will have exactly the opposite effect. They will unite the Mainland people and focus their attention on a superpower that clearly tries to contain and isolate China. It is like saying outright taking the side of Cuba, strengthening ties with Canada and Mexico and be friendly with Syria and Afghanistan would cause internal strife in the USA. It makes absolutely no sense.
Fokker-100 SAAB 340 Q400 E190 717 737 738 763ER 787-8 772 77E 773 77W 747-400 747-400ER A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A346 A359 A380
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:08 am

Flaps wrote:
Hirohito followed this path and ignored the advice of his brilliant Admiral Yamamoto. That did not work out so well for either of them, for their nation or their people. Never underestimate the power, determination and will of the United States. We may be a deeply flawed nation and a deeply flawed and currently divided people but all of our divisions will vanish in a heartbeat if we are attacked.
I believe that China's bravado is cover for fear. The fear that the world has grown wise to their game and is no longer willing to play by their rules. They have played their hand too soon and too forcefully. They need to be very careful how they tread. Their "face" saving rhetoric should it turn to action could well doom them and a significant part of the world's population at the same time.


Sensible post, Flaps. They should be fearful of direct combat with the USA. If they unleash their big guns then they would need to face our big guns. Nobody wants to see that. I think they are following a very careful long term plan. We used to think like that 80 years ago, but that generation is long dead. China made the most of their poor hand of cards. We did not.
 
A101
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:27 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:09 am

Flighty wrote:

When the battle begins, China's missile system, with over 1,000 missiles would sink the USN assets in the area, whether 1,2, 20, 60 ships. We are not going to win that naval battle unless we use lasers from space to do it. They can deny us entry to that area, they know it and we know it. So it is going to be theirs. It's done. Clinton, Bush and Obama mismanaged the issue and it is over now.



A pre-emptive strike iis one thing, but when they do the 1st shots from the USN wont be via a CBG ;) ;)
 
Cerecl
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:22 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:16 am

Jouhou wrote:

As a fan of Taiwan, I find it to be one of the few good things about Trump because he doesn't seem to mind helping Taiwan (and acknowledging its existence as a separate entity from China) as long as they want to buy weapons from us, build big factories in Wisconsin, and stroke his ego. Giving further acknowledgement of Taiwan's independence like he has without regard to the PRCs feelings on the matter normalizes the idea on the global stage. He may draw the PRCs ire but towards a president the US is likely going to wash it's hands of thoroughly anyways when he leaves office (whichever way that might come about)


Trump is using Taiwan as a pawn in his chess game with PRC. It is a pity that some people in Taiwan thought Trump is their saviour and would support Taiwanese independence, not realising that such a move would be the end-game and Taiwan as a pawn would completely lose its value. The consequence would be far more serious than just "drawing PRC's ire", it would lead to an all-out war that leaves Taiwan as the rabbit between two dueling elephants-no matters who wins, there is not going to be much left of Taiwan when it ends.
Fokker-100 SAAB 340 Q400 E190 717 737 738 763ER 787-8 772 77E 773 77W 747-400 747-400ER A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A346 A359 A380
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1743
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:20 am

A101 wrote:
Flighty wrote:

When the battle begins, China's missile system, with over 1,000 missiles would sink the USN assets in the area, whether 1,2, 20, 60 ships. We are not going to win that naval battle unless we use lasers from space to do it. They can deny us entry to that area, they know it and we know it. So it is going to be theirs. It's done. Clinton, Bush and Obama mismanaged the issue and it is over now.



A pre-emptive strike iis one thing, but when they do the 1st shots from the USN wont be via a CBG ;) ;)


Yeahhh... there seems to be a serious underestimation of our capabilities in that statement and completely ignores our submarine fleet. Last I checked, the only countries with the capabilities to take us on underwater also happen to not be adversaries to us.
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1743
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:32 am

Cerecl wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

As a fan of Taiwan, I find it to be one of the few good things about Trump because he doesn't seem to mind helping Taiwan (and acknowledging its existence as a separate entity from China) as long as they want to buy weapons from us, build big factories in Wisconsin, and stroke his ego. Giving further acknowledgement of Taiwan's independence like he has without regard to the PRCs feelings on the matter normalizes the idea on the global stage. He may draw the PRCs ire but towards a president the US is likely going to wash it's hands of thoroughly anyways when he leaves office (whichever way that might come about)


Trump is using Taiwan as a pawn in his chess game with PRC. It is a pity that some people in Taiwan thought Trump is their saviour and would support Taiwanese independence, not realising that such a move would be the end-game and Taiwan as a pawn would completely lose its value. The consequence would be far more serious than just "drawing PRC's ire", it would lead to an all-out war that leaves Taiwan as the rabbit between two dueling elephants-no matters who wins, there is not going to be much left of Taiwan when it ends.


If I remember internet chatter from Taiwanese people correctly, when he made his first diplomatic blunders with China on the issue, they immediately recognized he simply had no idea what he was doing and probably could not find Taiwan on the map. I don't think anyone deluded their selves into thinking he cares about Taiwan (or anyone but himself). But likewise, Trump's not playing chess here. He's not a strategic genius, he's just so narcissistic and irrational in some regards his next move just can't be predicted because he frequently doesn't make the most logical choice. That's his strategic advantage in a world used to being able to make predictions based on logic.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2022
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:51 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Judging from your stances and knowledge of both US and Taiwanese politics I'm guessing you might be Taiwanese-American? Or you could be like me, where I happened to pass through the PRC on my way to Taiwan and got to see the extreme night-and-day difference between the two countries, making the impact of the PRCs government very clear considering Taiwan's population is mostly Han Chinese. As much as Taiwanese politics might swing in regards to relations with China though, from my perspective the people of Taiwan are way to comfortable with their lifestyles to ever in reality become a part of "China" and if that ever came close to being a reality, people would reconsider.


I'm actually from HK (I've live in US for awhile, though) :rotfl: . I'll admit that I don't know everything about Taiwan politics (I never live there and only visited a few times), mostly just following the news.

Jouhou wrote:
Mostly though, I found it really easy to find Friends in Taiwan by telling people how much China sucks and all of the ways Taiwan was better (and I was not lying, the PRC left me excited about little things like Taxi Drivers being bound by the rule of law. Also people in Taiwan grasp the concept of standing in a line.)


:rotfl: :rotfl: (Although I'm certainly NOT surprise by this)

Actually, if you go to HK, you'll make just as many friends (especially among the younger generation) by saying how much PRC (and all those mainlanders) suck. :white:

Jouhou wrote:
If I remember internet chatter from Taiwanese people correctly, when he made his first diplomatic blunders with China on the issue, they immediately recognized he simply had no idea what he was doing and probably could not find Taiwan on the map. I don't think anyone deluded their selves into thinking he cares about Taiwan (or anyone but himself). But likewise, Trump's not playing chess here. He's not a strategic genius, he's just so narcissistic and irrational in some regards his next move just can't be predicted because he frequently doesn't make the most logical choice. That's his strategic advantage in a world used to being able to make predictions based on logic.


I agree. At max Trump call Tsai just to pissed off China. But Taiwanese already sort of knows that if PRC decided to really move forward and take Taiwan by force, US may just stand on the sideline b/c the nativist base want nothing of US intervention (In another word, US is no longer all that reliable of an ally). Same story goes for South Korea and Japan anyway - South Korea realized that Trump is stupid enough to throw away the best pawn (i.e. soldiers staying right there in SK and to lesser extent, Japan, as a deterrent to any North Korea aggression) that it's better to just keep NK close themselves. But what that means is that US lose yet another chess piece in the region against a larger frenemy (PRC).

Ultimately, Trump can't help himself but keep falling back to his nativist base (B/c he's one himself, don't think for a minute that he's smart enough to throw out "America First" without actually believing it). The PLA Navy admiral is hedging his "solution" (i.e. sinking US aircraft carriers) to "solve" the South China Sea problem b/c his nativist base want isolationism. What the admiral didn't realized, of course, is that "America First" definitely care about Americans getting killed, and sinking carriers will lead to grave consequences for PRC.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:32 pm

What's stopping China from taking over Pratas Island and turning it into another aircraft carrier / missile / radar base?
That looks like a powerful strategic move that would be impossible to counter without all out war.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1540
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:06 pm

Jouhou wrote:
There's 10 deployable super carriers and one that's not. Dry docks for these things are massive and there aren't a whole lot of them out there. That means there's never going to be too many undergoing major overhauls at once.


And are you sure you will have enough money to operate all 10 carrier groups at the same time? Aircraft carrier alone has 5000 people onboard. Plus it 2 dozens of other ships, including a whole fuel tanker. It’s very costly to operate all that of course - such group of ships needs immense amount of services from supply companies like Halliburton, and from all ports nearby. I remember French ran out of money for their only aircraft carrier after a couple of months.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:08 pm

anrec80 wrote:
And are you sure you will have enough money to operate all 10 carrier groups at the same time? Aircraft carrier alone has 5000 people onboard. Plus it 2 dozens of other ships, including a whole fuel tanker. It’s very costly to operate all that of course - such group of ships needs immense amount of services from supply companies like Halliburton, and from all ports nearby. I remember French ran out of money for their only aircraft carrier after a couple of months.
We've been doing it for decades.
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1743
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:33 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
There's 10 deployable super carriers and one that's not. Dry docks for these things are massive and there aren't a whole lot of them out there. That means there's never going to be too many undergoing major overhauls at once.


And are you sure you will have enough money to operate all 10 carrier groups at the same time? Aircraft carrier alone has 5000 people onboard. Plus it 2 dozens of other ships, including a whole fuel tanker. It’s very costly to operate all that of course - such group of ships needs immense amount of services from supply companies like Halliburton, and from all ports nearby. I remember French ran out of money for their only aircraft carrier after a couple of months.


Uh have you seen our defense budget? I'm pretty sure Russia loves to mock the size of our budget as if it's buying us nothing. There's an example of what it's buying us.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2022
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:41 pm

Jouhou wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
There's 10 deployable super carriers and one that's not. Dry docks for these things are massive and there aren't a whole lot of them out there. That means there's never going to be too many undergoing major overhauls at once.


And are you sure you will have enough money to operate all 10 carrier groups at the same time? Aircraft carrier alone has 5000 people onboard. Plus it 2 dozens of other ships, including a whole fuel tanker. It’s very costly to operate all that of course - such group of ships needs immense amount of services from supply companies like Halliburton, and from all ports nearby. I remember French ran out of money for their only aircraft carrier after a couple of months.


Uh have you seen our defense budget? I'm pretty sure Russia loves to mock the size of our budget as if it's buying us nothing. There's an example of what it's buying us.


Well, can't fault anrec. I mean, Russia has no money and even Chinese outspend them in defense.

And BTW, no money? You mean how US has a defense budget that's larger than the next 7 countries in terms of defense budget size combined? You mean the same country that have no money to feed people, build roads, etc. (And well, a wall :duck: ) but certainly have more money to build another 1000 missiles and 10 carriers? Oh, and US can just print more money if they want to.

If there's anything bipartisan in US, it's that the defense budget is sacred and cannot be touched. Anything else is up for discussion, though.
 
apodino
Posts: 3369
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:47 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
If there's anything bipartisan in US, it's that the defense budget is sacred and cannot be touched. Anything else is up for discussion, though.

While there is agreement in both parties on this (Way more the GOP than the Democrats), look at the group of congressmen just sworn into office. I dont think you will find a lot of support for a high defense budget there, and I suspect a lot of those congressmen would like to use Defense money for other progressive policies.

That being said, even with our high defense budget, we are still having difficulties like this. How much of this is actually going to defense, and how much is it going to special interests profitting off of this in the name of defense even if it does nothing for defense?
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1743
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:55 pm

apodino wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
If there's anything bipartisan in US, it's that the defense budget is sacred and cannot be touched. Anything else is up for discussion, though.

While there is agreement in both parties on this (Way more the GOP than the Democrats), look at the group of congressmen just sworn into office. I dont think you will find a lot of support for a high defense budget there, and I suspect a lot of those congressmen would like to use Defense money for other progressive policies.

That being said, even with our high defense budget, we are still having difficulties like this. How much of this is actually going to defense, and how much is it going to special interests profitting off of this in the name of defense even if it does nothing for defense?



A lot of new politicians go in with idealistic ideas of how wasteful defense spending is that the money could be better spent on social programs. They change their tune pretty quickly, and it's not just because of lobbyists. The defense budget achieves more than people realize, but most defense activities are not publicly known because... you know... that's not how defense works. Politicians get access to that information once they are seated.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2022
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:02 pm

apodino wrote:
While there is agreement in both parties on this (Way more the GOP than the Democrats), look at the group of congressmen just sworn into office. I dont think you will find a lot of support for a high defense budget there, and I suspect a lot of those congressmen would like to use Defense money for other progressive policies.


Yes, and I wish them good luck (B/c it IS ridiculous that we have money for missiles but no money for infrastructure, healthcare, etc.). But on the other hand, they quickly realized that their district has so many constituents that is related to the military-industrial complex one way or another, and taking money from the defense budget means they're doom the next election. Rinse and repeat.

apodino wrote:
That being said, even with our high defense budget, we are still having difficulties like this. How much of this is actually going to defense, and how much is it going to special interests profitting off of this in the name of defense even if it does nothing for defense?


I don't disagree. Look at previous "cost saving" exercise like BRAC, for example. No representatives want THEIR base being the one that's close, and no representatives want (often useless) projects that's majority of the funding in THEIR base to get cut. End results? We end up spending more money than saving.

(In actuality - it's the same reason why US budget problem will never get solve anyway - nobody wants THEIR thing to be the one that get cut, and end results? Stuff like sequestration where everyone feels the pinch).
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:26 pm

Jouhou wrote:
The defense budget achieves more than people realize, but most defense activities are not publicly known because... you know... that's not how defense works. Politicians get access to that information once they are seated.
I agree with zakuivcustom, defense spending in the district holds a lot of sway, but that doesn't seem to be what you're pointing out. What are you alluding to?
 
anrec80
Posts: 1540
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:39 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Uh have you seen our defense budget? I'm pretty sure Russia loves to mock the size of our budget as if it's buying us nothing. There's an example of what it's buying us.


Yes, everyone see that. World’s recognized corruption leaders are just an example of honesty when compared to this military budget. $340M for F-22 anyone (Russian state pays for their Su-57 equivalent about $50M)? 13 billion for an aircraft carrier - just to build (plus 20 or so ships to accompany it)? And all that with sub-trillion budget deficits?

I just can’t get rid of a sense that American military is waging a war on American economy. Nobody else will do more damage to you than your Defense Dept already did and is yet to do, unless you get this spending under control somehow. There is no need in any adversaries with such Defense Dept.

And the funniest of all - all this might could not even impress North Korea earlier this year; quite the opposite in fact.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:47 pm

anrec80 wrote:
World’s recognized corruption leaders are just an example of honesty when compared to this military budget.

Oh the bloody Irony!!

A Russian calling someone (anyone) else the world's corruption leader.

That takes the cake.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1540
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:49 pm

Jouhou wrote:
A lot of new politicians go in with idealistic ideas of how wasteful defense spending is that the money could be better spent on social programs. They change their tune pretty quickly, and it's not just because of lobbyists. The defense budget achieves more than people realize, but most defense activities are not publicly known because... you know... that's not how defense works. Politicians get access to that information once they are seated.


It’s all good as long as these politicians are able to run the country on 3-4% GDP budget deficits every year, having the country spend a lot more than it earns. And I understand why they are afraid to cut - nearly all this money is spent inside the US economy, and even halving that budget over the course of a few years, due to significant multiplier effect of this spending, is enough to throw this country into deep recession, slashing maybe 4-5% off its GDP. Nobody wants to have something like this during his tenure in the office. I am not mentioning lobbying factor here.

Together with that - this doesn’t change the fact that this is not sustainable. And the sooner this state begins its transformation to become leaner and more efficient, the better it is for everyone. But too many people will have to put on the table too much, in their view. However, if you suddenly run into blocks of ability to borrow - the changes will have to happen in uncontrolled manner, shattering the very statehood of the USA.
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1743
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:19 pm

salttee wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
The defense budget achieves more than people realize, but most defense activities are not publicly known because... you know... that's not how defense works. Politicians get access to that information once they are seated.
I agree with zakuivcustom, defense spending in the district holds a lot of sway, but that doesn't seem to be what you're pointing out. What are you alluding to?


I'm alluding to the fact the military serves more of a purpose than invading countries in the middle East and throwing money at sleazy defense contractors.

But what the military does is NOT public information. Political decisions like let's say, invading a country, are what the public knows about.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:27 pm

Jouhou wrote:
salttee wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
The defense budget achieves more than people realize, but most defense activities are not publicly known because... you know... that's not how defense works. Politicians get access to that information once they are seated.
I agree with zakuivcustom, defense spending in the district holds a lot of sway, but that doesn't seem to be what you're pointing out. What are you alluding to?


I'm alluding to the fact the military serves more of a purpose than invading countries in the middle East and throwing money at sleazy defense contractors.

But what the military does is NOT public information. Political decisions like let's say, invading a country, are what the public knows about.

Jouhou, that's just throwing out a cheap insult and it is a bit hypocritical when we remember that two weeks ago you were troubled by a US pullout of Syria; it seems you loke the invading of some countries in the ME - right?

Except for some black funds which in the past have been used mostly for TS hardware acquisition the DOD budget is open record.
"Sleazy defense contractors" is another cheap shot. Who are you attacking? Boeing? Lockheed? Why?
 
anrec80
Posts: 1540
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:31 pm

salttee wrote:
Oh the bloody Irony!!
A Russian calling someone (anyone) else the world's corruption leader.
That takes the cake.


This not what takes the cake. You guys spend 4-5 times(!) more on same kind of planes and ships than Russia and China, and not only believe that this is OK, but also proud of it. As opposed to questioning “WTF? Why THAT much difference? Where does all this money go?”. I understand - salaries, labor protection, etc - but that can account for tens of percents at most. Quite a few times increase - yes, any corrupted official can be made jealous of this. Even in “corrupted” countries like China or Russia they often cannot even up the cost of something by half without it being noticed.
 
johns624
Posts: 1948
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:41 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
There's 10 deployable super carriers and one that's not. Dry docks for these things are massive and there aren't a whole lot of them out there. That means there's never going to be too many undergoing major overhauls at once.


And are you sure you will have enough money to operate all 10 carrier groups at the same time? Aircraft carrier alone has 5000 people onboard. Plus it 2 dozens of other ships, including a whole fuel tanker. It’s very costly to operate all that of course - such group of ships needs immense amount of services from supply companies like Halliburton, and from all ports nearby. I remember French ran out of money for their only aircraft carrier after a couple of months.
The tanker is just for avgas. That's the beauty of nuclear power. The carrier doesn't need propulsion fuel so it can carry much more jet fuel.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:44 pm

You do know that without your nukes your country is pretty much defenseless even from attack by western Europe don't you?
You'd do just as good to straight up give your defense money to the oligarchs and not even ask for a receipt.
Nobody wants to invade you anyway.
 
FGITD
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:48 pm

anrec80 wrote:

And the funniest of all - all this might could not even impress North Korea earlier this year; quite the opposite in fact.



As luck would have it, impressing hostile countries isn't what counts in warfare.

It's easy to sink a carrier. It's what happens next where things get interesting. Generally speaking, I think I'd rather be on the carrier that's under attack than to be at a military base of the aggressor
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1743
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:49 pm

salttee wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
salttee wrote:
I agree with zakuivcustom, defense spending in the district holds a lot of sway, but that doesn't seem to be what you're pointing out. What are you alluding to?


I'm alluding to the fact the military serves more of a purpose than invading countries in the middle East and throwing money at sleazy defense contractors.

But what the military does is NOT public information. Political decisions like let's say, invading a country, are what the public knows about.

Jouhou, that's just throwing out a cheap insult and it is a bit hypocritical when we remember that two weeks ago you were troubled by a US pullout of Syria; it seems you loke the invading of some countries in the ME - right?

Except for some black funds which in the past have been used mostly for TS hardware acquisition the DOD budget is open record.
"Sleazy defense contractors" is another cheap shot. Who are you attacking? Boeing? Lockheed? Why?


Because we didn't "invade" Syria and the small handful of troops we have there prevent an ally from starting yet another all out war in Syria. Also the defense contractors I find to scam the government the worst aren't high profile names like boeing. It's the little guys providing specialized components that you likely never heard of unless you work in defense.
 
FGITD
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:50 pm

anrec80 wrote:

And the funniest of all - all this might could not even impress North Korea earlier this year; quite the opposite in fact.



As luck would have it, impressing hostile countries isn't what counts in warfare.

It's easy to sink a carrier. It's what happens next where things get interesting. Generally speaking, I think I'd rather be on the carrier that's under attack than to be at a military base of the aggressor
 
anrec80
Posts: 1540
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:18 pm

johns624 wrote:
The tanker is just for avgas. That's the beauty of nuclear power. The carrier doesn't need propulsion fuel so it can carry much more jet fuel.


Well, there are 20 other ships that need the tanker. It’s not likely that any of them are nuclear. Nobody starts dragging high voltage cables from one ship to the other from the carrier, right? :D :D :D
 
anrec80
Posts: 1540
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:25 pm

FGITD wrote:
As luck would have it, impressing hostile countries isn't what counts in warfare.


You know what - this “impressing” is also known as “projection of force”. This is the main purpose of an aircraft carrier in politics, and this is what your taxes are going for. Actual combat operations are a secondary concern. And given that earlier this year after N.K. missile launches whole 3 aircraft carrier groups “were sailing not to the North, but to the South” - “projection of force” by North Korea was a highly visible success, while that by the aircraft carries were a failure, and a total waste of taxpayers money.

FGITD wrote:
It's easy to sink a carrier. It's what happens next where things get interesting. Generally speaking, I think I'd rather be on the carrier that's under attack than to be at a military base of the aggressor


Russians would totally do that, if a missile launched from the carrier hits some of their military - this is what they clearly stated during air strikes in Syria. Apparently, this threat was taken seriously in Washington DC.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:27 pm

FGITD wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

And the funniest of all - all this might could not even impress North Korea earlier this year; quite the opposite in fact.



As luck would have it, impressing hostile countries isn't what counts in warfare.

It's easy to sink a carrier. It's what happens next where things get interesting. Generally speaking, I think I'd rather be on the carrier that's under attack than to be at a military base of the aggressor


This is all "off the table." We are not going to strike at their base. They are not going to strike at our carrier either, until many, many professional warnings are given. At that point, it is a suicide. We are not going to WWIII over their puddle. This is not even in play anymore. I hear the argument that the US could win a conventional war going into Fujian province. This is not correct. We would lose. If we resort to nukes, we would can do a lot of damage, but so can they. Time to admit the Chinese are building legitimate islands. We had a chance to deal with this (before), but there were no proper leaders in the US at those times and the China issue in general wasn't dealt with.

We need to fall back and hold onto the norms of world peace as long as we can. Unconventional / non insignia war is likely to happen more. I expect China regime to try to colonize much of the world, including Canada/USA, primarily financially. Forget the South China Sea... yesterday's battle. Already lost. Focus on tomorrow.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1540
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:28 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Because we didn't "invade" Syria and the small handful of troops we have there prevent an ally from starting yet another all out war in Syria.


Can you elaborate on this? Now your troops are defending your adversaries and “dictators” (Assad in this case) from your own allies? This is something new, though kind of a way to occupy military. :D :D :D

First we defend allies from adversaries, then adversaries from allies. And everyone is having fun! Not forgetting to earn some $$$ of course.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1540
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:33 pm

salttee wrote:
You're a Russian troll, US economics is none of your business.


Kind of is - is it OK that I live in the USA and pay taxes? ;) ;) ;)

salttee wrote:
Your country is an economic midget, it is outperformed by Belgium. Where do you get the nerve to question the US economy?


And nonetheless - Russia is a strong sovereign contry, and Belgium (just as most European nations) is closer to an outright colony.
 
johns624
Posts: 1948
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:37 pm

anrec80 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
The tanker is just for avgas. That's the beauty of nuclear power. The carrier doesn't need propulsion fuel so it can carry much more jet fuel.


Well, there are 20 other ships that need the tanker. It’s not likely that any of them are nuclear. Nobody starts dragging high voltage cables from one ship to the other from the carrier, right? :D :D :D
You're right, but it's not 20 ships. A modern CBG is usually one carrier, one Tico and two Burkes, along with one or two SSNs.
 
johns624
Posts: 1948
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:37 am

salttee wrote:
Belgium is a colony of who? France?
The Netherlands (only half joking).
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:15 am

johns624 wrote:
salttee wrote:
Belgium is a colony of who? France?
The Netherlands (only half joking).
I was gonna say that myself.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1540
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:51 am

salttee wrote:
Belgium is a colony of who? France?


How do you think? There is one “metropoly” right across the pond. Its capital begins with W. Now - why?

What was happening around the Iran nuclear treaty? Europeans wanted to continue trade with Iran, but our metropoly just used its favorite word (that’s still actionable at times) - “sanctions”. And what happened next? The whole EU, despite some protests, said “yes sir!”, despite that this is against their best interests and desires. This is not the behavior of sovereign states, you know. Last time such things happened in colonies in 19th century, where the Big Ambassador (British, Dutch, etc.) just gives a hint, and everything just happens.

A truly sovereign nation or a bloc would say “we will do what’s in our best interests. If you impose your sanctions - you will immediately get retaliatory measures. Such as sanctions against Deutsche Bank will cause sanctions against Morgan Stanley in EU. And yes - such rotten talks aren’t part of allied relationship, hence NATO will be history, and your troops have to get out within 15 days”. This is probably what would happen if Putin tries to play such a trick on Nazarbaev of Kazakhstan or Lukashenko of Belarus - I think in both of those cases he’ll get a similar answer, well deserved IMHO.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:13 am

anrec80 wrote:
salttee wrote:
Belgium is a colony of who? France?


How do you think? There is one “metropoly” right across the pond. Its capital begins with W. Now - why?

What was happening around the Iran nuclear treaty? Europeans wanted to continue trade with Iran, but our metropoly just used its favorite word (that’s still actionable at times) - “sanctions”. And what happened next? The whole EU, despite some protests, said “yes sir!”, despite that this is against their best interests and desires. This is not the behavior of sovereign states, you know. Last time such things happened in colonies in 19th century, where the Big Ambassador (British, Dutch, etc.) just gives a hint, and everything just happens.

A truly sovereign nation or a bloc would say “we will do what’s in our best interests. If you impose your sanctions - you will immediately get retaliatory measures. Such as sanctions against Deutsche Bank will cause sanctions against Morgan Stanley in EU. And yes - such rotten talks aren’t part of allied relationship, hence NATO will be history, and your troops have to get out within 15 days”. This is probably what would happen if Putin tries to play such a trick on Nazarbaev of Kazakhstan or Lukashenko of Belarus - I think in both of those cases he’ll get a similar answer, well deserved IMHO.

It's called diplomacy aka soft power.

But what would a thuggish Russian know about that.
 
User avatar
neutrino
Posts: 1522
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 5:33 pm

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:43 am

johns624 wrote:
The tanker is just for avgas.

Point of correction: the word you are looking for is avtur.....unless you are thinking the planes onboard modern carriers are reciprocating engine driven.
Avgas - piston engines.
Avtur - gas turbine engines.

You're welcome.
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10098
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:45 am

anrec80 wrote:
And what happened next? The whole EU, despite some protests, said “yes sir!”, despite that this is against their best interests and desires. This is not the behavior of sovereign states,


You are being delusional again. There are currently no changes to Iran sanctions introduced in the EU. And only companies with significant US business care.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3395
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:13 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Osama Bin Ladin killed 3,000 Americans and the American government went to war.

The admiral is off his rockers to think that America is scared to fight China if they sink those carriers.

Communist Chinese Admirals and Generals have and do a lot of "Talking Crap". If they Believed Half of that? Send a couple of their best fighter pilots out into the straights and challenge 2 US navy Fighter pilots. By the time they finish trying to get the NAVY fighters off of their 6? They'll know good and damn well they're not up to snuff. So far? they're good at intimidating Unarmed airplanes. So let's see how good they are with trying to intimidate fighters? Then we can Know who's TOP Gun.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1540
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:21 am

salttee wrote:
It's called diplomacy aka soft power.

But what would a thuggish Russian know about that.


Wait a min - so now brute force sanctions threat are now “soft power”? Wasn’t “soft power” supposed to convince someone come onboard voluntarily? There is nothing voluntary in being forced by such means. I don’t believe Europeans agreed that this is exactly the “soft power”. If Europeans want to agree that this is “soft power” - it’s up to them. But this is the exactly the thuggish behavior you so much like blaming Russia for. It’s just your own thugging you call differently - “soft power” in this case.

And another question - if this is “soft power”, then where is the boundary between “soft power” and outright internal affairs meddling?
Last edited by anrec80 on Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
anrec80
Posts: 1540
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Sinking US aircraft carriers will resolve tension in South China Sea, says Chinese admiral

Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:29 am

tommy1808 wrote:
You are being delusional again. There are currently no changes to Iran sanctions introduced in the EU. And only companies with significant US business care.


And nonetheless the bottom line is exactly the one I described. There are no major companies in EU without major US ties simply. Total is getting its capital in the US capital markets, European banks make money in the US financial system, doing anything but what they should be - providing liquidity and capital to European firms. EU doesn’t even have any financial system it can call its own. Without using US financial services Lufthansa can’t even buy a Hamburg-assembled A-320 (and the contracts are being denominated in USD).

In order for the whole European economy to come to a full stop, all that’s needed is an (un-) carefully prepared press-release by Steven Mnuchin’s press-secretary mentioning Deutche Bank in the wrong (or right, dependent on purposes) context. No decisions even. There is no sovereignty anywhere there, this is a colonial dependency. You can call it anyhow you like - “soft power”, “allied obligations” or something else. I just called the thing by its name.
Last edited by anrec80 on Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: EA CO AS, GalaxyFlyer, opticalilyushin and 23 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos