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VTKillarney
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:41 pm

We also don’t have as much access to movies, song, etc. in a single foreign language. I can avoid German easily. A German has to work hard to avoid English.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:05 pm

That all being said, I don't want to be thought of as a stereotypical American. I try really hard to learn the bare basics of a language when I travel and have run into a lot of appreciative people. Instead of yelling "cerveza!" or throwing a "tres" in front of it, I get a few simple words like "puedo tener ------ por favor?" That simple sentence has gotten me very far, and knowing bare basic conjugations has allowed me to throw in "pagar ahora" or something to make it exponentially more functional

I love language and all but I'm telling ya, it's a super perishable skill. It's not like I can go to the market and use/practice Spanish every day, or even seldomly.

In fact, the few times I see "a Mexican" I don't want to automatically start speaking Spanish to them. That "Mexican" may be a third generation Puerto Rican that hasn't spoken a sentence of Spanish in his life. Would be kinda racist, no? Slightly stereotypical at best

It isn't easy for many of us to be bilingual. I don't want that to sound like I'm complaining about how hard it is, it just is what it is. I'm not going to artificially maintain a secondary language I will never use just because of muh privilege (I may for fun, but I've failed at that a few times)

No guilt here. I really wish I had to know another (always wanted to learn Russian, hope salttee doesn't see this ;) )
 
Flighty
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:22 pm

I think the thread makes a good point. English is the language of business and power, at least in the world with which I am familiar.

My parents taught me the correct use of grammar and spelling. This IS a massive advantage in this world. There is a huge privilege mentality around speaking English too. “He doesn’t even know how to speak proper English. “ - constantly said about people who speak 4+ languages and speak English far better than I can speak other languages.

Now that I have accepted my English skill is an advantage and a privilege, what then? Should I pay a tax to everybody who does not have the same upbringing that I did? What if I refuse to pay, should I be jailed? Should I hire people without regard to their English skills? Why?

My parents also taught me to be nonviolent. Is nonviolence a privilege too? Should I apologize for being nonviolent?

I see how we are peeling this onion of privilege. And I agree people look to me at age 20 and listen to what I say as if I represent the ruling class in this world. It is a bizarre idea because I consider myself a nobody, just an average fool. But the aura of privilege is very real.

This privilege discussion is important to achieve fairness. So what does the endgame of “fairness and equality” looks like? A lack of any privilege. The clearest path would be that we must never allow parents to raise children in an excellent way. Probably all children will need to be raised in a government institution. This sounds like the extremes of the Cultural Revolution, a now discredited atrocity that nearly destroyed a great civilization bigger than the USA. They actually went after privilege with a vengeance. There was no moral legitimacy that rose out of it. Instead what they got was chaos and lunacy and death.

We can’t and should not eliminate privilege (aka success/achievement) but i do believe we should consider everybody’s privilege level. Mine was an A and some other people are a B student coming out of an F environment. That means something and they deserve a lot of respect for their accomplishments. More than an A student from an A environment.
 
BarfBag
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:18 pm

Channex757 wrote:
Another aspect is that places like India took on the English Common Law when they became independent as a model for their legal system so the lawyers also need to be proficient in English. Many other nations did too. English remains the language of Government and legal business in India.

India does not follow common law. It follows a combination of increasingly dominant statutory civil law, an existing base of inherited common law and customary law. Further, 'English' and 'English common law are two different things. English may be the dominant language of international business, but Germanic/Napoleonic civil law basic legal systems dominate the countries of the world - common law based countries are far fewer.
 
luckyone
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:08 am

Oh boy. Such a loaded opening thread.

I reply as a native English speaker who loves languages and picks up what I need to know to travel in places with enthusiasm. I think everyone should be able to communicate in more than one form and being monolingual is limiting.

Having said that...
1. Life isn’t fair, and if you can’t deal with that you’ll drive yourself crazy. People have inherent gifts and blessings. I do not deign to suggest that my obstacles are the same as someone who did not grow up where I did, but a lot of other people DID and I didn’t just walk into or inherit security. Being a native English speaker didn’t give me an advantage over the thousands of other medical school and residency applicants with whom I competed for spots, because most of them also grew up speaking English.
2. If it weren’t English the odds of the global second language being your own are quite low, and you’d have to learn another language regardless. German, in spite of my love of Germany, would not be most people’s choice. English is a farkhakte language with one million exceptions to every rule due to pulling vocabulary from several other languages. But German is equally complicated just in other ways.
3. If you’re selling to me it helps to speak to me. The US is the beneficiary of being a winner in a global conflict that decimated most of the industrialized world and left North America’s largely untouched, for reasons not at all relevant to this thread. Bottom line it was easier for 47 (an arbitrary number) countries to learn one language, and the historical geographic spread of English reinforced that. I can’t offer a way to correct hundreds of years of history and one monumentally short sighted pair of elections in 1932...
4. Espiranto failed because there were already lingua francas in place. And frankly it’s easier to learn a language that has native speakers and is a natural language because there’s abikity to compare it and an existing body of knowledge held within it that doesn’t need to be needlessly replicated. The execution of it is also not as helpful as its intention. It basically smashes together its creator’s native tongues (Russian and Yiddish) and results in a Slavic sound inventory, with Latin vocabulary (he was a doctor) over a Germanic sentence structure. Cool in theory. Not helpful in practice because none of those things works well together, especially if you already speak a language from the Romance, Germanic, or Slavic groups—which is basically everyone in Europe sans Hungary and Finland. There is no natural form, as someone else above noted.
 
Pi7472000
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:12 am

There is a huge issue with privilege when it comes to language. Those who speak English assume that others must learn English to succeed. I learned English growing up and that provided huge advantages for myself.
If you want to work in aviation you generally have to learn English.

I have learned to speak Portugese, Spanish, French and now am learning Russian. These are eurocentric languages so that is another issue as well. I have learned Swahili in the past, but cant speak it like I used too. Hopefully, after I become fluent in Russian I can learn another language. People in the U.S. should be required to learn another language to develop empathy and combat the unfair advantage they have from speaking English.

It is surprising in the U.S. that you do not see street signs and advertising etc. In Spanish along with English.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:39 am

interesting topic, i often thought i was at a disadvantage for not knowing Chinese. I mean, it's very hard to do business in China when you don't speak the language. That said, I've been in other countries and tried to speak their language, and people just start speaking English to me, i can only assume i was slaughtering their language, but at the same time, it was a big relief not have to try so hard to communicate. Here's the thing OP You are at a advantage for speaking German in some instances. I think, it all equal outs. You may have a point, about English since in some instances it more helpful to speak English than Chinese for now anyway.
.
 
aviationaware
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:19 am

rabenschlag wrote:
I'm working in a business where social justice is taken fairly serious. So, we talk a lot about white privilege, male privilege, heterosexual privilege and so forth.


:rolleyes:

rabenschlag wrote:
What can we do about getting even in terms of language?


Easy. Learn English. It is a very easy language, billions of people around the world speak it and anyone who puts in at least some effort can master it in a way that puts you on equal footing in a business environment.

rabenschlag wrote:
Do anglophone people feel guilty about their anglophone privilege?


No. Only a handful of morons feel guilty about something they have no influence over whatsoever.

rabenschlag wrote:
If not Esperanto, what would be an alternative to English? Latin? Ancient Greek? But this would be eurocentric....


Maybe you can convince the world to switch to Elvish or Klingon? I'd love to see you try.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:17 am

If we are so concerned about privilege and equality, lets offer free plastic surgery to make everyone beautiful.
 
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fallap
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:31 am

What I fail to understand time and time again, is why so many of the native English speaking people I have known, have not been taught a foreign language in school. Surely English is the main international language, but speaking a language such as French or Spanish on top of your English, would give you a tremendous advantage over us who's native language is completely useless on the international scene. But I guess it does even the playing field, also it certainly has its advantages of speaking a "secret language" that only roughly 6 million people master! ;)
Ex grease monkey buried head to toe inside an F-16M
Now studying Political Science
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:55 am

rabenschlag wrote:
Now, in the business world, the science world, the politics world, the tourism world, English is the dominant language. As a German, if I want to be successful in my profession, I have to write, talk, and negotiate in English, not my native language. My British, Australian, New Zealandian, and US of A'ian colleagues have an edge on me, all the time. It sucks, it's a non-earned privilege, and nobody seems to care.


In business it is no disadvantage to speak English only as 2nd language. You can claim misunderstandings, they can't. If you meet in court ambiguities in a contracts language usually go your way...... it is not that bad at all.

petertenthije wrote:
The German basic vocabulary is more limited compared to English. They get around that by combining words. But that makes words complicated and at time confusing.


That is the most brilliant thing about the German language.... confusing for non-native speakers, yeah... but brilliant.

[*]Dutch? It's a simplified version of German leaning heavily towards English. The grammar is easier then German, but still more complicated then English. Same issue with numbers as well.


Has any Dutch person killed you yet?
Dutch is a low German dialect, it is not a simplified version of German. The way of doing numbers in most germanic languages also predates English, and since that is a Germanic language too, it is English that messed up numbers and gets it wrong obviously.... :D
Dutch may seem simpler than German if you learn it as a 2nd language though.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
petertenthije
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:31 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Has any Dutch person killed you yet?
Not that I know of, but with all the holidays lately I may have missed a staff meeting or two. LOL

What I meant is that Germans have 16 cases (17 if you want to count den/denn seperate), whereas Dutch only has three. That makes Dutch a lot easier, in particular for casual use.

German might be better for legal use though. Not because it is easier, but because the language has rules for everything you could possibly think of, generally with few exceptions. This makes German grammatically less open to interpretation, leaving aside the smaller vocabulary compared to English. Dutch is a lot more open to interpretation, in particular where time (past/present/future...) and genders are concerned.
Attamottamotta!
 
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trpmb6
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:27 pm

I can only assume that the OP is seeking a global language that is universally adopted and taught across the world.

But that's what English has already become, through the natural course of history (you can debate the merits on how that came to be, but that doesn't change the fact that it is).

You could propose changing the world to a different global language, but it would, in all likelihood be biased towards some existing language for ease. That doesn't solve the problem the OP is discussing, and only serves to cause more consternation, confusion and headaches for all. Furthermore, if you did move towards a different global language, I would assume some nations would simply adopt that as their main language at that point. Particularly if the new language were based off their previously dominant language. That doesn't serve the intent of the OP either.

Perhaps the question isn't about privilege for native English speakers; but a question of, why haven't other countries adopted English as their de facto official language? That would solve the problem the OP seems concerned with, with the least amount of disruption to current global order. I'm, of course, not suggesting this is the solution - having many cultures/languages is what makes Earth great.
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:37 pm

petertenthije wrote:
What I meant is that Germans have 16 cases (17 if you want to count den/denn seperate), whereas Dutch only has three. That makes Dutch a lot easier, in particular for casual use.


yeah... that is in deed true

German might be better for legal use though. Not because it is easier, but because the language has rules for everything you could possibly think of, generally with few exceptions. This makes German grammatically less open to interpretation,


No wiggle room whatsoever. Only problem is that very few Germans master German to that degree.......
I don´t think German has less vocabulary though. Datenverarbeitungsendgerät may consist out of four words, but it still is one word for all intends and purposes ... so vocabulary is effectively unlimited. But we say "Computer" too.
Try to find the englisch words for Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz or Grundstücksverkehrsgenehmigungszuständigkeitsübertragungsverordnung* :D

best regards
Thomas

*Yes, those are correct German words that where used in reality and are not just theoretically possible.
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cledaybuck
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:24 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
What I meant is that Germans have 16 cases (17 if you want to count den/denn seperate), whereas Dutch only has three. That makes Dutch a lot easier, in particular for casual use.


yeah... that is in deed true

German might be better for legal use though. Not because it is easier, but because the language has rules for everything you could possibly think of, generally with few exceptions. This makes German grammatically less open to interpretation,


No wiggle room whatsoever. Only problem is that very few Germans master German to that degree.......
I don´t think German has less vocabulary though. Datenverarbeitungsendgerät may consist out of four words, but it still is one word for all intends and purposes ... so vocabulary is effectively unlimited. But we say "Computer" too.
Try to find the englisch words for Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz or Grundstücksverkehrsgenehmigungszuständigkeitsübertragungsverordnung* :D

best regards
Thomas

*Yes, those are correct German words that where used in reality and are not just theoretically possible.
Intents. Your earlier point about misunderstandings with English as a second language seems to fit quite well. :D
 
cledaybuck
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:27 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Easy. Learn English. It is a very easy language, .
I don't think it is easy. There is an exception for everything. Words get pronounced different for no logical reason, despite similar spellings.
 
JJJ
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:31 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
I can only assume that the OP is seeking a global language that is universally adopted and taught across the world.

But that's what English has already become, through the natural course of history (you can debate the merits on how that came to be, but that doesn't change the fact that it is).


And it's a great choice. Broken English takes very little time to get (much less that French, German, Spanish or any of the other obvious choices) and it's a language that takes damage very well. You can turn names to adjectives to verbs easily enough, and basic grammar fits on the back of a napkin.

Phonetically it's a mess, but you have many accents to choose from. A minor inconvenience at most.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:46 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
People in the U.S. should be required to learn another language to develop empathy and combat the unfair advantage they have from speaking English.

That is a stupid reason to do anything.

In fact, unless you're a trans, disabled, overweight, poor, person of color, etc I'm sure we could all found out how much "privilege" you have over various people around the world and bog you down with tasks so you can "emphathize" with others for your "unfair" advantages

For the record, I think there is plenty of time within our schooling curriculum to add a second language, but more importantly, for more practical reasons

Those playing the privilege game need to really think about your privilege because if you're wanting to bog down others for their privilege, well screw you, why not bog yourself down for your privilege? I find it ironic the people whining about privilege the most aren't some poor people in the third world but entitled people in the West that live like royalty compared to most of the world

Plus, that is not even the point of privilege and acknowledging it. It is an easy concept to beat up because it's often abused, but the point of it is not to be obnoxious to others that have privilege and artificially weigh them down, it's to help people without the privilege. Magically forcing native English speakers to learn another language "just because" isn't actually going to do much for everyone else that has to learn English (again, I think there's a case for us to learn another language but not for something silly like "for empathy")
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:54 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Easy. Learn English. It is a very easy language, .
I don't think it is easy. There is an exception for everything. Words get pronounced different for no logical reason, despite similar spellings.


It is very easy to learn enough to be understood. Mastering is a different story.

Identical spelling isn't a big problem if it is clear from the context... Took me much longer than a minute to notice that there isn't even a minute difference between the spelling of minute and minute. I only noticed that a year ago or two...

DeltaMD90 wrote:
For the record, I think there is plenty of time within our schooling curriculum to add a second language, but more importantly, for more practical reasons


Spanish would be a good choice for the US I guess.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Tugger
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:05 pm

Hmmm.... from what I know a second language is already a requirement the USA to graduate high school. Only two years are required so I can't say it is as robust a requirement as it could be but at least in my neck of the woods it is required.

Are there states that don't require a second language to graduate high school?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
cledaybuck
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:11 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Easy. Learn English. It is a very easy language, .
I don't think it is easy. There is an exception for everything. Words get pronounced different for no logical reason, despite similar spellings.


It is very easy to learn enough to be understood. Mastering is a different story.

Identical spelling isn't a big problem if it is clear from the context... Took me much longer than a minute to notice that there isn't even a minute difference between the spelling of minute and minute. I only noticed that a year ago or two...

DeltaMD90 wrote:
For the record, I think there is plenty of time within our schooling curriculum to add a second language, but more importantly, for more practical reasons


Spanish would be a good choice for the US I guess.

Best regards
Thomas
Fair enough. I guess I have noticed the inconsistencies more since I have a young son who is learning to spell and read. Anyone learning would think words like bear and hear (not here) would be pronounced similarly, but they are not. There is stuff like that all throughout the language. As for a second language in the US education system, I believe most places do require something. The problem is English is so pervasive, that you don't use that second language much, if at all. I took 5 years of French in school, but have never had to use it. I agree that Spanish would probably be the best choice to learn as a second language in the US, but even then, there are parts of the country (like where I live) where you will hardly ever see it.
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:34 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Anyone learning would think words like bear and hear (not here) would be pronounced similarly, but they are not.


Bear is bɛə(ɹ)
Hear is hɪə(ɹ)

Considering that the English language has 13 different pronunciations for the letter a, depending on word and neighbouring letters and 11 for e i would call that pretty similar... :D

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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trpmb6
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:00 pm

Tugger wrote:
Hmmm.... from what I know a second language is already a requirement the USA to graduate high school. Only two years are required so I can't say it is as robust a requirement as it could be but at least in my neck of the woods it is required.

Are there states that don't require a second language to graduate high school?

Tugg


It was when I went to school in MO, still is as far as I know.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:21 pm

rabenschlag wrote:
I'm working in a business where social justice is taken fairly serious. So, we talk a lot about white privilege, male privilege, heterosexual privilege and so forth.

What about right-handed privilege, blond hair privilege, beauty privilege, female privilege, intelligence privilege, or does your company only concern itself with white, heterosexual and male privilege? If you take the definition of privilege as something only available to a particular group, this cannot apply to people who only speak English. Anyone who feels English speakers are privileged can easily solve the problem by becoming one of the so-called privileged. Simple as . . .
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:30 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Hmmm.... from what I know a second language is already a requirement the USA to graduate high school. Only two years are required so I can't say it is as robust a requirement as it could be but at least in my neck of the woods it is required.

Are there states that don't require a second language to graduate high school?

Tugg


It was when I went to school in MO, still is as far as I know.


Two years of a foreign language is like two years of math. However, I get to use math everyday.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:33 pm

casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Hmmm.... from what I know a second language is already a requirement the USA to graduate high school. Only two years are required so I can't say it is as robust a requirement as it could be but at least in my neck of the woods it is required.

Are there states that don't require a second language to graduate high school?

Tugg


It was when I went to school in MO, still is as far as I know.


Two years of a foreign language is like two years of math. However, I get to use math everyday.


Quite true. Learning a second (or more) language is one thing, but keeping it maintained is another challenge. This is why I try to make regular trips to cancun :lol: to keep my Spanish at least somewhat useful. The important part is I can understand what is being said, I just may not be able to reply.
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:48 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
. The important part is I can understand what is being said, I just may not be able to reply.


Have you considered switch DVD/Netflix or such to Spanish when available? It's perfect to maintain listening skills and broaden dialect understanding. Boy was the first time watching "don't be a menace to South central while drinking your juice in the hood" a learning experience......

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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trpmb6
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:19 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
. The important part is I can understand what is being said, I just may not be able to reply.


Have you considered switch DVD/Netflix or such to Spanish when available? It's perfect to maintain listening skills and broaden dialect understanding. Boy was the first time watching "don't be a menace to South central while drinking your juice in the hood" a learning experience......

Best regards
Thomas


More than a few times I've found myself watching the spanish movie channel by accident and not even realizing it til my wife (who took high school level french for 3 years) asked me what I was doing. It's more likely due to me being distracted by my phone than having a full understanding of what is being said.

But you do make a great point about being able to maintain skills when exposure is low. Probably best to stick to movies you know pretty well, something you've seen multiple times.
 
VSMUT
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:56 pm

rabenschlag wrote:
What can we do about getting even in terms of language?


By getting rid of all other languages and only using English.

Having multiple languages is the real problem here, not the other way round. Do you really think anybody will get "even" by making it equally hard for everyone to understand each other?

There has to be a (relatively) universal language, not having one is impractical. Somebody will be in a favourable position regardless of what you do: English for the Anglos, Spanish for the Spanish and Esperanto for the intellectual elite.

Focus instead on improving education.

rabenschlag wrote:
Do other non-anglophone people also experience illegitimate disadvantage compared to native anglophones?


Not in the slightest.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:21 pm

VSMUT wrote:
rabenschlag wrote:
What can we do about getting even in terms of language?


By getting rid of all other languages and only using English.

Focus instead on improving education.

rabenschlag wrote:
Do other non-anglophone people also experience illegitimate disadvantage compared to native anglophones?


Not in the slightest.


There is a certain level of irony hidden in all this, that I think the OP misses. People who have the opportunity, or rather the need, to engage in conversations with people from a different nation, for commerce, tourism etc, are already privileged. These people are engaging in industries that already require higher education. Are already affluent enough to travel across the world.
 
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Berevoff
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:53 pm

I'm now privileged and should feel guilt for.....**shuffles cards**......speaking English.

What will it be next?
 
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Tugger
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:19 pm

No one has suggested the most obvious solution:
No one should be allowed to learn another language.

You get one language. Period. And that way everyone is at the same disadvantage.

See? It's so simple. No privilege for anyone.
:spin:
Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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Revelation
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:53 am

rabenschlag wrote:
Why did Esperanto fail? Can there anything be done to revitalise it?

For the same reason True Communism failed: they both depended on altruism for success, and humans aren't very altruistic.

Ken777 wrote:
Another area besides flight where a single language is critical would be computer technology. I can remember Fortran programming in the early 70s - my first attempt and we programmed on punch cards. I can remember thinking of the chaos if we tried to advance in multiple languages. We are far enough advanced now that English might not be needed in some programming shops, but I bet is is still an advantage.

I worked with FORTRAN 77 code in the 80s that was written in The Netherlands. It was pretty hard to make sense of it.

TWA772LR wrote:
Historically, the last great colonial power was the British and their language was English so it's easy to see why English is the language of business today.

When I was in high school in the 1970s I was told to succeed in diplomacy I needed to learn French, and to succeed in physics and/or chemistry I needed to learn German.

I did my two years of language (Spanish, because I was told it was easier than French, lol) then dropped it in favor of taking physics, advanced math and computer science.

Turns out the language I should have been offered was Chinese...
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Airstud
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:20 am

rabenschlag - How sure are you that you're not a native English speaker? That's not at all evident about you from the quality of your opening post.

And I 150% echo everything Francoflier said in Reply #32. I don't feel "guilty" about being an English speaker, but as an American I am embarrassed by the fact that so many of us don't speak anything else. For some reason U.S. schools don't introduce foreign language until junior high school (ages 11-13) at the earliest and it's usually a choice between French and Spanish.

I was at a train station in Moncton, New Brunswick, and a couple of guys with lumberjack shirts and metal lunch pails asked me what train I was waiting for (I didn't think there were a whole lot of trains coming through Moncton on a given day :boggled: ), they asked it once in English and before I could answer they asked it again in French. Lumberjacks. With metal lunch pails. Fluently speaking the preferred language of Dr. Niles Crane.

I took five years of what my school district had the gall to call "honors" Spanish, from eighth grade through twelfth, and when I got to Mexico on vacation I discovered they hadn't taught us any Spanish at all.
Pancakes are delicious.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:03 am

Those lumberjacks were French speaking the French of Samuel de Champlain.

GF
 
Airstud
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:43 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Those lumberjacks were French speaking the French of Samuel de Champlain.

GF


Well it's still better French than your average metal lunch-pail-toting lumberjack-shirt-jacket-wearing American could manage.
Pancakes are delicious.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:53 am

Tugger wrote:
Hmmm.... from what I know a second language is already a requirement the USA to graduate high school. Only two years are required so I can't say it is as robust a requirement as it could be but at least in my neck of the woods it is required.

Are there states that don't require a second language to graduate high school?

Tugg

I think most high schools require it throughout America... as you can see, it doesn't do very much good. You have a very very basic (poor) understanding of the language after those required classes and then you rapidly lose it.

If we want to get serious about language education in our schools it needs to be consistent from K-12
 
MikeDrop
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:32 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
If anything, native English speakers tend to bear the disadvantage of generally being only proficient in one language.
The downside of English being a somewhat universally spoken language is that when you speak it off the bat, there is little incentive to learn another one.

I find native english speakers across the world to be generally quite lazy when it comes to learning or speaking anything else which, if you ask me, is more of a handicap nowaday, especially in our increasingly global and competitive World.

So you're forced to learn and use a new language... congratulations, that makes you better than most.


All fair comments. English speakers are privileged, and denying that is simply one of the hallmarks of privilege. That said it is simply a historical fact. For almost any speaker of any other language the world around - what is the most useful second language to learn. In exceptional cases it may be something besides English.

I think you are confusing the word privilege with the word advantage. They are not the same thing. Webster’s dictionary defines them differently. English is not a privilege, it is an advantage.

Mike Drop
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:49 pm

By the time we get to word games it is time the thread is getting old, and soon to be forgotten.
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Jalap
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:37 am

rabenschlag wrote:
Do other non-anglophone people also experience illegitimate disadvantage compared to native anglophones?


No.
Most people I speak English to also aren't native anglophones. It's quite brilliant there's this language we all know, so we can communicate. Although I must admit I find it very difficult to understand the Asian dialects of English. Some of the European dialects of english, especially the Scandinavian, I really love, it sounds better than English, American or Australian English :)

And all anglophone people I've met professionally had the decency to speak clear English, not rambling like they probably would in the pub with their freinds. If somebody doesn't respect you're not a native English speaker, you best walk away from that person.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:45 am

There is a difference bro! This "privilege" has to be earned no? :)

Growing up in India, We did have an advantage of having some very good English schools. But we had to make an effort to learn it! Not everyone who studied with me did! But those of us who made the effort benefitted from it! Its an acquired privilege that we had to work VERY hard to get! :)

I found myself in a (somewhat) similar situation when I first moved to a Francophone country! I did learn a bit of French in school in India (upto A2 level). But had forgotten most of it. I had to re-learn most of my French and that was quite hard. Its a challenge once you are older! :(

trpmb6 wrote:
There is a certain level of irony hidden in all this, that I think the OP misses. People who have the opportunity, or rather the need, to engage in conversations with people from a different nation, for commerce, tourism etc, are already privileged. These people are engaging in industries that already require higher education. Are already affluent enough to travel across the world.


Well, there is another way to look at it. In many parts of the world, learning the English language has had an aspirational value to it. Certainly true where I came from! Many parents from less privileged backgrounds (daily wage laborers, lower castes and the like) insisted on sending their children to an English medium school and if that wasn't possible then at the very least a school that had English as a second language. Like it or not, but knowledge of English is seen as important to succeed in many parts of the world.
Last edited by BawliBooch on Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BawliBooch
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:54 am

I might be a minority of one on this - but is America really "Anglophone"?

New York? Maybe! But go 20 miles out into the countryside and it just got weird! First time I got pulled over by a cop in the USA(Nevada), the cop spoke to me in Spanish! Do Indian's look like Spanish people? Even when he spoke in English, I couldn't understand his damn accent at all! But weirdest of all was New Orleans. In what universe is THAT English? :O

IMO, English language classes are not enough. There should be emphasis on accent training as well. In school in India, we had extra-credit classes for accent training where great emphasis was placed on having a neutral accent. That should be standard IMO.
Last edited by BawliBooch on Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aesma
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:12 am

No country has changed its language to English because that would be a difficult task, and because there is no real need to do it, most people aren't involved in international trade, most people don't need English everyday.

I'm more surprised that Japan and China for example haven't changed their written language to something easier, you would think all those complicated symbols are a competitive disadvantage, but it doesn't appear so.

I must say seeing that Vietnamese has been "latinized" and can be easily read by me was a good surprise, I'm sure I could learn that language much more easily thanks to that.

tommy1808 wrote:
Hear is hɪə(ɹ)


I can not read that at all, that's a language I should learn for sure.
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tommy1808
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:19 am

Aesma wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Hear is hɪə(ɹ)


I can not read that at all, that's a language I should learn for sure.


i still just have hatred for the teacher that made us learn to read IPA, and you forget that really quick unless you keep learning languages, but while learning a new language it is pretty darn useful.

best regards
Thomas
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flyguy89
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:37 am

rabenschlag wrote:
But, here is the big but, we rarely talk about language, and at the same time, it matters a lot. Write a business proposal, a scientific paper, a patent, give a talk, a presentation, negotiate IN YOUR NATIVE LANGUAGE vs. A FOREIGN language. It makes a huge difference. It's way easier in you native language. Less effort, more professionalism, more confidence. Superiority by language.

Now, in the business world, the science world, the politics world, the tourism world, English is the dominant language. As a German, if I want to be successful in my profession, I have to write, talk, and negotiate in English, not my native language. My British, Australian, New Zealandian, and US of A'ian colleagues have an edge on me, all the time. It sucks, it's a non-earned privilege, and nobody seems to care.

I'm going to flip your supposition here. Why do you assume having to learn English as a second language is a disadvantage? Learning English plus having your native language puts you at an advantage over most Anglophones who don't know multiple languages in my experience. Any mispronunciations, accents or word fumbling is very forgiven in English-speaking countries if it's not your native language, nor is it viewed as "unprofessional" so long as you're understood. It's actually considered extremely mean and rude (at least in the US I'd say) to belittle or nitpick someone's English if it's not their native language.

As a native English speaker who is fluent in French, I would say you all are actually the privileged ones. In trying to learn a second language I continually found it difficult to utilize and immerse myself in the French language...even though I speak great French, francophones can still easily tell I'm not native and will always default to English or exploit me as an opportunity to practice their English. So here I was struggling to be bilingual and create that skillset for myself, meanwhile nearly all of my French friends had practically been fluent in English since middle school (and many in Spanish or German as well) and thus more advantaged than myself. I'm hyperbolizing a bit here, but my point is being multi-lingual (whether you're a native anglophone or not) is in fact prized, and you all have a leg up on learning non-English second languages.
 
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Revelation
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:04 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
I might be a minority of one on this - but is America really "Anglophone"?

New York? Maybe! But go 20 miles out into the countryside and it just got weird! First time I got pulled over by a cop in the USA(Nevada), the cop spoke to me in Spanish! Do Indian's look like Spanish people? Even when he spoke in English, I couldn't understand his damn accent at all! But weirdest of all was New Orleans. In what universe is THAT English? :O

IMO, English language classes are not enough. There should be emphasis on accent training as well. In school in India, we had extra-credit classes for accent training where great emphasis was placed on having a neutral accent. That should be standard IMO.

I bet that cop didn't think your accent was all that neutral! :biggrin:
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:13 pm

Mid-Atlantic English is a somewhat neutral accent. And TV broadcasters, especially news during the golden age of broadcast somewhat standardized American English.
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Beardown91737
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:31 am

Esperanto failed because it was a fake language that no one spoke. How can you get everyone to start from scratch? Maybe wide adoption of the metric system put out the message that different standards could be adopted, but starting over on written and spoken communication makes less sense.

Besides, how do you ramp up an Esperanto conversion? Who would be qualified to teach? How do you stop regional dialects from forming like they do with other languages like English within the United States. English isn't even uniform within the City of Chicago and its many waves of immigration. Metric is widely used and understood. It even has some limited use in the USA. Esperanto would be throwing out music and literature from every culture equally, and still would not have reached every society.
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BlueberryWheats
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:41 am

Maybe we should just use Newspeak. That'll keep all interactions doubleplus good.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: The Anglophone Privilege

Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:24 pm

Unless I have missed it, I haven't seen anybody mention the elephant-in-the-room; Welsh!

Surrounded by English speakers on every side, and with significant parts of the principality knowing nothing but English in the modern era, Welsh is making a comeback.

At one time, the young were subjected to an education system that didn't simply offer english as the only language, but inflicted physical punishment on any child who used their mother tongue in class.
In the later 19th century, virtually all teaching in the schools of Wales was in English, even in areas where the pupils barely understood English. Some schools used the Welsh Not, a piece of wood, often bearing the letters "WN", which was hung around the neck of any pupil caught speaking Welsh. The pupil could pass it on to any schoolmate heard speaking Welsh, with the pupil wearing it at the end of the day being given a beating.


Now almost 1% of the UK population speak Welsh, although the actual figures are open to some dispute. Indeed, even within Wales, those that speak Cymraeg only represent 20% of the population, and the numbers who actually use Welsh as their everyday language is probably something less than this.

So, in the face of English as the obvious language of choice all around (in business, in education, in law, in television & film), Welsh is more visible now that it has been in the previous 100 years. It is no longer only to be found whispered quietly by older members of society clinging on to their heritage in remote villages; it is shouted out loud by the younger generation, and featured in bi-lingual TV dramas that are exported to …. wait for it.... English viewers (with sub-titles as required). It's official status is supported by modern legislation passed by the UK Parliament, such as the Welsh Language Act 1993

In aviation terms, it would be as if we not only celebrated our glorious history of piston-engined biplanes, but mandated their use as regional airliners here in the 21st century. In both cases it flies against apparent wisdom, E pur si muove

I have no actual figures, but I suspect a large (very large) proportion of those students currently learning and using Welsh as their primary language, are also perfectly fluent in English. They are the ones who are priviledged. They maintain their street credibility amongst their peers on the streets of Aberystwyth & Pwllheli, but can equally well speak fluent techno-babble english in California's silicon valley.

It isn't all about English taking over the world.

Multi-lingual road signage...Image
p.s. the chain-link fence just visible on the left is Cardiff Airport....
Nothing to see here; move along please.

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