salttee
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:24 pm

Justin, do you know how to use the quote feature?
It's not difficult.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:15 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
Who gets to decide the parameters and definition of a lost cause? Any tyrant can rise to power and use this excuse to kill off whomever they choose. This would give the government way too much power.

Good question, but honestly, I don't think it's some huge, unsolvable philosophical question. We have the death penalty now, it is used pretty infrequently. Never for political prisoners, certain people committing a minor crime, etc

I haven't thought about it too hard because I'm against the death penalty since it's not and can never will be 100% certain


CitizenJustin wrote:
Capital punishment isn’t really about justice — It’s about revenge and blood lust. Humanity needs to grow up and the death penalty has no place in a civilized society. It achieves nothing and gives the government too much power.

I used to think that, but meh, think it's kinda just hippie nonsense. Seeing the atrocities of ISIS and all really swayed me to recognize that the world is way better off without a lot of people. I know there is a huge difference between the battlefield and someone is custody, but they can be just as evil. I have no problem with them being permanently removed.

But like I said, I can't be for the death penalty because it's imperfect in practice. Life in prison WITHOUT the possibility of parole is good enough for me.

That's where I have a problem with some European countries... They often give these stains of society the chance to get out one day. I know in practice, at least in some European countries, they get at least the chance of a parole hearing and parole is quickly/easily denied, but nah, lock some people up forever
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:20 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:

My point is that there are far more innocent people who have died at the hands of cops then those who were wrongfully executed. I find it hypocritical to care about the government killing innocent people via the death penalty but not having an issue with bad cops. Statistically you are more likely to die at the hand of a cop than in the state death chamber.

Hmm, you are really baffling me still. Are you saying I care about the government killing innocent people but not about bad cops?

Where did you draw that conclusion, who says I don't? They aren't mutually exclusive you know..... :confused:
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:36 pm

AA747123 wrote:
Personally I think the death penalty should be expanded. A true three strikes and you are out. Rapist, child molesters, all great candidates for the death penalty. Methods we use today are all fairly efficient. Electric Chair? 2000 volts at 8 amps directly into the brain will render you brain dead in a spit second, wont feel a thing. Lethal injection? They give you a lethal dose of sodium thiopental to begin with so you really wont feel anything. Firing Squad? They aim for the heart as soon as the bullet hits in a split second you are gone.

The only thing we need to do it cut the endless appeals. I thing the sentence should be carried out within 30 days of it being issued.

There is no proof anyone innocent has ever been executed.

So lets light up old sparky and start to render justice!

Innocent people have been executed. I had a professor in college that was a former prosecutor for the state of Texas. He wouldn't tell us his stance on capital punishment but he did tell us that at least 2 innocent people have been executed by Texas. The first guy pretty much just happened to have the unfortunate coincidence of having they same name as the real perpetrator. The second guy got convicted of burning down his house for insurance fraud and subsequent murder of his daughters because they were in the house. During the trial they couldn't replicate the environment of what started the fire in the crime lab and the guy was convicted and executed. Well they returned to the lab and found that the conditions for the fire as stated by the defense were able to be replicated.

And while cheap and effective, firing squads could cause psychological trauma for the members of the squad.

I personally am in favor of the death penalty but only if we are 100% sure the person did it. A painless, humane death is neither cruel nor unusual so it is inline with the Constitution. We as a society cannot revert to mob rule and execute people as soon as the sentencing is made. We have the appeal process as well as the entire courts system to insure the innocent aren't convicted and the rights of all citizens are guaranteed, and even though its a pretty damn good one, it still isn't perfect. We have the rule of law for a reason. For all the Dylan Roofs and Ted Bundy's out there, society still has to prove that it is still greater and more merciful than the likes of them, so a quick, humane, and painless death (as long as we are 100% sure) is in order.
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NIKV69
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:

So America should be the safest country in the world, they have the highest prison population by far. Spoiler: it isn't.

Preventing crime has many aspects, punishment is one, but not the most important one.


You twisted the point I was making. If we had laws and sentences like Singapore yes we would but we are too sympathetic to criminals like you are right now.

Kiwirob wrote:

Of course you can be 100% sure the person you’re executing did it. In many cases there is absolutely no doubt about who did it. The problem in the US is they allow far to many appeals, it should be a mandatory one and if they lose execute them. It doesn’t work as a deterant if crimes get to spend decades before they are popped off, it also adds to the cost.


Wow we finally agree!
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:57 pm

Very few criminals weigh incentives and deterrents in the rational manner you are implying.


Of course they weigh their options, like anybody else does. They may be stupid, they maybe poorly socialized, they still look at their choices and make a judgement what is in their best interest and act on it. They could certainly make bad guesses on the probabilities , but no one murders somebody without, at least, knowing the possibility of be convicted and punished.

Nobody, thinks about acting and consciously decides what I’m doing is in my worst interest. Even impulsive people act toward their best outcomes, they just have bad time horizons.

The very point of punishment is to alter the incentives and change behavior. If we just ticketed people for murder, would the rate go up or down?

GF
 
StarAC17
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:08 pm

scbriml wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
The only thing we need to do it cut the endless appeals. I thing the sentence should be carried out within 30 days of it being issued.

There is no proof anyone innocent has ever been executed.

So lets light up old sparky and start to render justice!


Render justice?

Here's a list of people freed after being convicted and given death penalties. With your ludicrous 30 day limit, at least 163 wrongfully convicted people would have been executed. 163!
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence- ... -death-row

Render justice? :sarcastic: :banghead:


Don't feed the troll.
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scbriml
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Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:15 am

StarAC17 wrote:
Don't feed the troll.


Yeah, guilty as charged. :oops:
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:19 am

I'll also agree that sucide should be an option for anyone in prison. No need for counseling though. It's a personal decision and I don't believe in protecting people from themselves. Just leave them alone with an oral barbiturate.

I'll never understand why death row inmates are put on suicide watch before an execution. We should be hoping that they commit sucide and save the state the hassle and expense of the execution process.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:47 am

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

That is false, you can never be 100% sure, never. So if you are in favor of the death penalty, you automatically take for granted that some innocent people will be executed. If you don't want that, you are automatically against the death penalty.


Of course you can be 100% sure the person you’re executing did it. In many cases there is absolutely no doubt about who did it. The problem in the US is they allow far to many appeals, it should be a mandatory one and if they lose execute them. It doesn’t work as a deterant if crimes get to spend decades before they are popped off, it also adds to the cost.


This statement is utter nonsense. I have given many examples here, why you can't be 100% sure. And it has been proven over and over again that a certain percentage of the people in American prisons on death row are innocent. In your system, they would have been put to death a long time ago and quite a few have been released upon they were proven innocent by advances in DNA or some other methods.


Go back and reread what you wrote, it reads like you can never be 100% sure with every case. With most cases you can be sure.
 
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:54 am

Dutchy wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
That is false, you can never be 100% sure, never. So if you are in favor of the death penalty, you automatically take for granted that some innocent people will be executed. If you don't want that, you are automatically against the death penalty.

I am supportive of the death penalty only at certain at times, when facts are known (not "proven"). I am not trying to convince you, just stating my position as I disagree with the blanket statement/justification you are attempting.


What justification? You are attempting to justify being in favor of the death penalty by saying only in the cases of 100% certainty, all I am saying you can never ever be certain, so if you want to race the bar that high, nobody will ever be convicted, thus in practice you are against the death penalty.


So you’re saying that it’s not 100% certain that ABB killed those 76 people? You’d be a complete idiot if that’s how you think, this is one man that the police should have executed on the spot, it would have saved Norway a lot of trouble.
 
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:57 am

WIederling wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
No I don't want it to be comfortable. You think Ted Bundy's victims were smiling and comfortable when they died? I am sick of coddling people that hurt and kill others. You do the crime you accept the consequences.


Strangely so many of those "BEARING THE CONSEQUENCES" seem to have been convicted on faked or "misinterpreted" evidence.
How do you handle acquittal for the innocents that are now dead ?


I guess a lot of the people executed when they were innocent were likely pretty bad people anyway so does it really matter if the wrong scumbag is killed?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:15 am

I thought Edmund Zagorski's defense attorney made a very eloquent speech after his electrocution. She made it clear that she was not against the death penalty but felt that the electric chair was outdated and cruel. Not only should it be a quick and painless method such as nitrogen but the whole process needs to be changed. We could learn a thing or two from China. Their executions are quick and quite peaceful. They don't see any need to restrain the condemned from head to toe. There is no need to shackle an elderly man who has been on death row for 35 years and been a model prisoner. Zagorski even saved the life of a prison guard. The majority are tired and just want it to be over with. They don't give any trouble and should be allowed to make their final steps in peace. What do they think they are going to try and do? They're in a maximum security prison surrounded by guards. We can kill and still be kind.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:15 am

Kiwirob wrote:
WIederling wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
No I don't want it to be comfortable. You think Ted Bundy's victims were smiling and comfortable when they died? I am sick of coddling people that hurt and kill others. You do the crime you accept the consequences.


Strangely so many of those "BEARING THE CONSEQUENCES" seem to have been convicted on faked or "misinterpreted" evidence.
How do you handle acquittal for the innocents that are now dead ?


I guess a lot of the people executed when they were innocent were likely pretty bad people anyway so does it really matter if the wrong scumbag is killed?


oh boy, do you truly think like this? So you do not believe in the rule of law, you do not believe in the perceived innocent principle. To extend that, you can't complain if you were executed while being innocent, now can you. You must be trolling again.
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WIederling
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:17 am

Kiwirob wrote:
WIederling wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
No I don't want it to be comfortable. You think Ted Bundy's victims were smiling and comfortable when they died? I am sick of coddling people that hurt and kill others. You do the crime you accept the consequences.


Strangely so many of those "BEARING THE CONSEQUENCES" seem to have been convicted on faked or "misinterpreted" evidence.
How do you handle acquittal for the innocents that are now dead ?


I guess a lot of the people executed when they were innocent were likely pretty bad people anyway so does it really matter if the wrong scumbag is killed?

Very much YES.
( Then what ever else you are is not topic of a specific convicition. )
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Dutchy
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:20 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Of course you can be 100% sure the person you’re executing did it. In many cases there is absolutely no doubt about who did it. The problem in the US is they allow far to many appeals, it should be a mandatory one and if they lose execute them. It doesn’t work as a deterant if crimes get to spend decades before they are popped off, it also adds to the cost.


This statement is utter nonsense. I have given many examples here, why you can't be 100% sure. And it has been proven over and over again that a certain percentage of the people in American prisons on death row are innocent. In your system, they would have been put to death a long time ago and quite a few have been released upon they were proven innocent by advances in DNA or some other methods.


Go back and reread what you wrote, it reads like you can never be 100% sure with every case. With most cases you can be sure.


:checkmark: correct, you can never be 100% sure of all the circumstances, never. Saying you only going to execute people whom are 100% guilty is deluding yourself. So to extend that: if you are in favor of the death penalty, I am not for obvious moral and practical reasons but ok, then you need to accept that innocent people will fall through the cracks and will be put to death innocently. If you don't, then you are against the death penalty for practical reasons.
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Dutchy
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:25 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I am supportive of the death penalty only at certain at times, when facts are known (not "proven"). I am not trying to convince you, just stating my position as I disagree with the blanket statement/justification you are attempting.


What justification? You are attempting to justify being in favor of the death penalty by saying only in the cases of 100% certainty, all I am saying you can never ever be certain, so if you want to race the bar that high, nobody will ever be convicted, thus in practice you are against the death penalty.


So you’re saying that it’s not 100% certain that ABB killed those 76 people? You’d be a complete idiot if that’s how you think, this is one man that the police should have executed on the spot, it would have saved Norway a lot of trouble.


Execution by the police: prosecutor, judge and executioner in one. You are an idiot for thinking like this, living in Norway with one of the best rule of laws in the world, protecting your rights as well, even though you are fine by not having them.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:35 am

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

This statement is utter nonsense. I have given many examples here, why you can't be 100% sure. And it has been proven over and over again that a certain percentage of the people in American prisons on death row are innocent. In your system, they would have been put to death a long time ago and quite a few have been released upon they were proven innocent by advances in DNA or some other methods.


Go back and reread what you wrote, it reads like you can never be 100% sure with every case. With most cases you can be sure.


:checkmark: correct, you can never be 100% sure of all the circumstances, never. Saying you only going to execute people whom are 100% guilty is deluding yourself. So to extend that: if you are in favor of the death penalty, I am not for obvious moral and practical reasons but ok, then you need to accept that innocent people will fall through the cracks and will be put to death innocently. If you don't, then you are against the death penalty for practical reasons.


Really? What about the guy that murdered someone while streaming it live on Facebook? He was in the video killing the victim and it was his phone streaming it. Why in the world would you think he might be innocent?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:47 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Really? What about the guy that murdered someone while streaming it live on Facebook? He was in the video killing the victim and it was his phone streaming it. Why in the world would you think he might be innocent?


Really! You cannot be sure about the state of mind of a person, was he insane at the moment? Videos can be altered.

Point being, you can never be 100% sure, never. You might be 99,9% sure, but not 100%. That's why there is the beyond a "reasonable doubt" principle. You can always doubt something, but is it reasonable to doubt that or not.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:55 am

Dutchy wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Really? What about the guy that murdered someone while streaming it live on Facebook? He was in the video killing the victim and it was his phone streaming it. Why in the world would you think he might be innocent?


Really! You cannot be sure about the state of mind of a person, was he insane at the moment? Videos can be altered.

Point being, you can never be 100% sure, never. You might be 99,9% sure, but not 100%. That's why there is the beyond a "reasonable doubt" principle. You can always doubt something, but is it reasonable to doubt that or not.


It. Was. Live. You can't edit a live stream. You are just grasping at straws at this point. And the suspect is given various mental evaluations by medical professionals. The school shooter in Florida earlier this year is quite obviously mentally challenged and therefore won't face the death penalty. But some people are just evil and have no remorse for what they did. Judy Buenoano had no remorse for killing her son and husbands for the insurance money. Arsenic poisoning and drowning someone are absolutely horrible to imagine. That's a heartless killer and she deserved to die.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:01 am

Kiwirob wrote:
I guess a lot of the people executed when they were innocent were likely pretty bad people anyway so does it really matter if the wrong scumbag is killed?


"likely pretty bad"?

What the heck, just kill everyone who even looks mean. Problem solved. They all deserved to die anyway. Have I got that right?

TTailedTiger wrote:
...


The more you post, the more I'm convinced.
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Dutchy
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Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:03 am

Never 100% sure, never, doesn't matter how improbable the scenario is, there will always be an alternative scenario. You need to recognize that if you are in favor of the death penalty.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:13 am

Dutchy wrote:
Never 100% sure, never, doesn't matter how improbable the scenario is, there will always be an alternative scenario. You need to recognize that if you are in favor of the death penalty.


Thankfully your opinion is in the minority. A live video of a killing from the murderer's phone is pretty cut and dry. There have also been horrific acts such as drug cartel members killing the children of rival cartels as revenge. I can't imagine the pain their family and friends feel. It's insane that some people have sympathy for these monsters. I'm done with you.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:14 am

scbriml wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
I guess a lot of the people executed when they were innocent were likely pretty bad people anyway so does it really matter if the wrong scumbag is killed?


"likely pretty bad"?

What the heck, just kill everyone who even looks mean. Problem solved. They all deserved to die anyway. Have I got that right?

TTailedTiger wrote:
...


The more you post, the more I'm convinced.


Convinced of what? Come on out and say what's on your mind. All I have been advocating for is a truly humane execution method. What issue do you have with that?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:55 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Never 100% sure, never, doesn't matter how improbable the scenario is, there will always be an alternative scenario. You need to recognize that if you are in favor of the death penalty.


Thankfully your opinion is in the minority. A live video of a killing from the murderer's phone is pretty cut and dry. There have also been horrific acts such as drug cartel members killing the children of rival cartels as revenge. I can't imagine the pain their family and friends feel. It's insane that some people have sympathy for these monsters. I'm done with you.


You truly are missing my point, in a spectacular fashion if I may add. I don't believe these monsters should go free. Never said so. All I am saying is that the assumption of 100% guild is false. You say it yourself: "pretty cut and dry", isn't 100% sure, but 99,9% which seems fair to me and is enough of a threshold to convict someone, if he is not insane. And that is exactly my point. And if you are in favor of the death penalty, only when it is 100% proven, then you are diluting yourself.
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scbriml
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Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:07 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
All I have been advocating for is a truly humane execution method. What issue do you have with that?


You seem to be missing that "humane execution" is an oxymoron. If murder is wrong, state-sponsored murder is also wrong. It's not punishment, it's just base revenge.

The US is in some great company in retaining the death penalty:
Image
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Kiwirob
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:35 am

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
WIederling wrote:

Strangely so many of those "BEARING THE CONSEQUENCES" seem to have been convicted on faked or "misinterpreted" evidence.
How do you handle acquittal for the innocents that are now dead ?


I guess a lot of the people executed when they were innocent were likely pretty bad people anyway so does it really matter if the wrong scumbag is killed?


oh boy, do you truly think like this? So you do not believe in the rule of law, you do not believe in the perceived innocent principle. To extend that, you can't complain if you were executed while being innocent, now can you. You must be trolling again.


Since I’m not inclined to doing bad things to people the chances of me being sentenced to death are very slight, whereas bad people do bad things and if they are accidentally wrongfully convicted and executed I don’t have an issue with that.
Last edited by Kiwirob on Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:36 am

Dutchy wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Never 100% sure, never, doesn't matter how improbable the scenario is, there will always be an alternative scenario. You need to recognize that if you are in favor of the death penalty.


Thankfully your opinion is in the minority. A live video of a killing from the murderer's phone is pretty cut and dry. There have also been horrific acts such as drug cartel members killing the children of rival cartels as revenge. I can't imagine the pain their family and friends feel. It's insane that some people have sympathy for these monsters. I'm done with you.


You truly are missing my point, in a spectacular fashion if I may add. I don't believe these monsters should go free. Never said so. All I am saying is that the assumption of 100% guild is false. You say it yourself: "pretty cut and dry", isn't 100% sure, but 99,9% which seems fair to me and is enough of a threshold to convict someone, if he is not insane. And that is exactly my point. And if you are in favor of the death penalty, only when it is 100% proven, then you are diluting yourself.


If they are never going to be free then execute them, makes it easier for everyone concerned.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:37 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

I guess a lot of the people executed when they were innocent were likely pretty bad people anyway so does it really matter if the wrong scumbag is killed?


oh boy, do you truly think like this? So you do not believe in the rule of law, you do not believe in the perceived innocent principle. To extend that, you can't complain if you were executed while being innocent, now can you. You must be trolling again.


Since I’m not inclined to doing bad things to people the chances of me being sentenced to death are very slight, whereas bad people do bad things and if they are accidentally wrongfully convicted and executed I don’t have an issue with that.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:38 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

I guess a lot of the people executed when they were innocent were likely pretty bad people anyway so does it really matter if the wrong scumbag is killed?


oh boy, do you truly think like this? So you do not believe in the rule of law, you do not believe in the perceived innocent principle. To extend that, you can't complain if you were executed while being innocent, now can you. You must be trolling again.


Since I’m not inclined to Doug bad things to people the chances of me being sentenced to death are very slight, whereas bad people do bad things and if they are accidentally wrongfully convicted and executed I don’t have an issue with that.


I know you are just trolling, but still. You are advocating that it is ok to be punished (ultimately death) for something you haven't done. I truly have never seen anyone make that argument. :roll:
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Kiwirob
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:41 am

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

oh boy, do you truly think like this? So you do not believe in the rule of law, you do not believe in the perceived innocent principle. To extend that, you can't complain if you were executed while being innocent, now can you. You must be trolling again.


Since I’m not inclined to Doug bad things to people the chances of me being sentenced to death are very slight, whereas bad people do bad things and if they are accidentally wrongfully convicted and executed I don’t have an issue with that.


I know you are just trolling, but still. You are advocating that it is ok to be punished (ultimately death) for something you haven't done. I truly have never seen anyone make that argument. :roll:


Chances are that if you are mistakenly convicted of murder and are sentenced to death you most likely already have a record and have probably done some pretty bad things so why worry about these kinds of people.

My thoughts are bad people should be locked up for life, really bad peope should be executed and the rest of us can just carry on living without having to worry about it.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 11764
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:55 am

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

What justification? You are attempting to justify being in favor of the death penalty by saying only in the cases of 100% certainty, all I am saying you can never ever be certain, so if you want to race the bar that high, nobody will ever be convicted, thus in practice you are against the death penalty.


So you’re saying that it’s not 100% certain that ABB killed those 76 people? You’d be a complete idiot if that’s how you think, this is one man that the police should have executed on the spot, it would have saved Norway a lot of trouble.


Execution by the police: prosecutor, judge and executioner in one. You are an idiot for thinking like this, living in Norway with one of the best rule of laws in the world, protecting your rights as well, even though you are fine by not having them.


But there is no doubt about ABB’s guilt, some of his kills were caught on camera, he was positively identified by dozens of people, it’s 100% certain he was the guy, executing him would not have been an issue, Norway will change as the ethnic make up of the country changes, when you’re a homogeneous society like Norway’s was its system worked but with the large numbers of foreign criminals thinking justice in Norway is pathetic sentences will have to increase and prisons will stop being nice places to go.

What about the Moroccans who killed the Danish and Norwegian girls two weeks ago, they did it on video, showed there faces, they don’t deserve to live do they?

Justice is too soft in the western world. When a pedo gets 4 years in a Norwegian country club prison but his victims have a life sentence how fare is that? Then the authorities allow that piece of shit back into his own home which is surrounded by families with young children without even warning said neighbours you really have to wonder if the Norwegian justice system works!
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 641
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:59 am

Kiwirob wrote:

Since I’m not inclined to Doug bad things to people the chances of me being sentenced to death are very slight, whereas bad people do bad things and if they are accidentally wrongfully convicted and executed I don’t have an issue with that.


Great, you won't moan like a little bitch when you get locked up and sentenced to death purely for walking past the all-night garage on your way home. It's happened.
You've just said it yourself, the chances are slight but there's still that chance. That chance increases with all sorts of factors.

Your argument of "they've been given a death sentence, they must have done bad things (that justify it) before" is pretty moronic.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:05 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Thankfully your opinion is in the minority. A live video of a killing from the murderer's phone is pretty cut and dry. There have also been horrific acts such as drug cartel members killing the children of rival cartels as revenge. I can't imagine the pain their family and friends feel. It's insane that some people have sympathy for these monsters. I'm done with you.


You truly are missing my point, in a spectacular fashion if I may add. I don't believe these monsters should go free. Never said so. All I am saying is that the assumption of 100% guild is false. You say it yourself: "pretty cut and dry", isn't 100% sure, but 99,9% which seems fair to me and is enough of a threshold to convict someone, if he is not insane. And that is exactly my point. And if you are in favor of the death penalty, only when it is 100% proven, then you are diluting yourself.


If they are never going to be free then execute them, makes it easier for everyone concerned.


Your threshold for murder is concerning low.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:16 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Chances are that if you are mistakenly convicted of murder and are sentenced to death you most likely already have a record and have probably done some pretty bad things


Might be so, or not. But you are advocating to punish someone for which he/she didn't do. Can't believe we have to argue this point. Ultimately I am more concerned about your rights than you......

Kiwirob wrote:
so why worry about these kinds of people.
because I am human and these are too human beings and I want to live in an human society.

Kiwirob wrote:
My thoughts are bad people should be locked up for life, really bad peope should be executed and the rest of us can just carry on living without having to worry about it.


....... sorry, don't even know anymore how to react to this. This is so far beyond the point of reason that I will leave it with that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
Posts: 7333
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:55 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Your argument of "they've been given a death sentence, they must have done bad things (that justify it) before" is pretty moronic.

A common reversal of causality.
like:
Our soldiers are heroes.
Whatever they do must therefor be hero stuff and endlessly good.

Another recurring problem with wrongful conviction is
that the wrongfully convicted inmate ( lucky, no death penalty )
steadfastly continues to berate that wrongful conviction.
Result:
He (she?) gains a record of being difficult and lacking in remorse.
Without the prospect of betterment the full sentence will be brought to bear.
no "good prisoner" perks no reduced sentence.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 11764
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You truly are missing my point, in a spectacular fashion if I may add. I don't believe these monsters should go free. Never said so. All I am saying is that the assumption of 100% guild is false. You say it yourself: "pretty cut and dry", isn't 100% sure, but 99,9% which seems fair to me and is enough of a threshold to convict someone, if he is not insane. And that is exactly my point. And if you are in favor of the death penalty, only when it is 100% proven, then you are diluting yourself.


If they are never going to be free then execute them, makes it easier for everyone concerned.


Your threshold for murder is concerning low.


The state executing people isn’t murder it’s punishment for doing something bad enough to deserve it.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 11764
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Chances are that if you are mistakenly convicted of murder and are sentenced to death you most likely already have a record and have probably done some pretty bad things


Might be so, or not. But you are advocating to punish someone for which he/she didn't do. Can't believe we have to argue this point. Ultimately I am more concerned about your rights than you......

Kiwirob wrote:
so why worry about these kinds of people.
because I am human and these are too human beings and I want to live in an human.


There’s far too many humans, loosing a few bad ones is more than ok by me.

You don’t need to worry about my rights, i don’t happen to believe in human rights anyway, it’s just a bunch of words on paper which ultimately mean nothing and are violated daily even by western gives who are supposed to uphold those rights.
 
Jetty
Posts: 609
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:48 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I am personally in favor of the death penalty for the very worst of crimes. It needs to be something cold and premeditated. Not just a simple shooting of an ex-lover or shooting a cop in the heat of the moment. Its use should be rare and there must not be any doubt about the guilt of the defendant.

:checkmark: The problem I have with the application of the DP in the US is that it isn't like this at all. It has become a bargaining tactic to get ppl to plead guilty to crimes that carry LWOP. And the only ones receiving the DP are the ones not agreeing to this, thus relatively more likely to be innocent than the ppl who do agree to LWOP. Even serial 'purging' doesn't get you the death penalty these days, as long as you're willing to agree to LWOP: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... 319218001/

Dutchy wrote:
That is false, you can never be 100% sure, never. So if you are in favor of the death penalty, you automatically take for granted that some innocent people will be executed. If you don't want that, you are automatically against the death penalty.

I bet you are in favor of prison sentences, while you don't want anyone innocent locked up. How is that fundamentally different? Many more people die while being innocent in jails because of natural causes than the DP and time being taken away can't be given back either. In that sense a prison sentence is just as irreversible as the DP, the difference is just semantics.

salttee wrote:
I am opposed to the death penalty simply because it wastes enormous sums of the state's money fighting inevitable appeals; it is welfare for lawyers. Incarceration is much cheaper.

Much cheaper indeed, because they don't get the attention and free appeals that DP convicts get, which got many proven innocent convicted people free. If I'd be convicted while innocent in the US I'd prefer the DP over LWOP. I'm not sure if that's a convincing argument against the DP or a deficit of the US justice system.

AA747123 wrote:
There is no proof anyone innocent has ever been executed.

There are definitely two people who were executed and would never have been convicted by an impartial jury and with decent representation based on the facts known today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_DeLuna and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham.

TWA772LR wrote:
Innocent people have been executed. I had a professor in college that was a former prosecutor for the state of Texas. He wouldn't tell us his stance on capital punishment but he did tell us that at least 2 innocent people have been executed by Texas. The first guy pretty much just happened to have the unfortunate coincidence of having they same name as the real perpetrator. The second guy got convicted of burning down his house for insurance fraud and subsequent murder of his daughters because they were in the house. During the trial they couldn't replicate the environment of what started the fire in the crime lab and the guy was convicted and executed. Well they returned to the lab and found that the conditions for the fire as stated by the defense were able to be replicated.

:checkmark: These are the two names above.
 
salttee
Posts: 3024
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:20 am

Jetty wrote:
salttee wrote:
I am opposed to the death penalty simply because it wastes enormous sums of the state's money fighting inevitable appeals; it is welfare for lawyers. Incarceration is much cheaper.

Much cheaper indeed, because they don't get the attention and free appeals that DP convicts get, which got many proven innocent convicted people free. If I'd be convicted while innocent in the US I'd prefer the DP over LWOP. I'm not sure if that's a convincing argument against the DP or a deficit of the US justice system.

99% of death penalty appeals just cause delay, they go nowhere and accomplish nothing. In the case of an innocent person, nothing changes, they can still petition for retrial or try to generate publicity. Pro bono lawyers will work any case where they think the client is innocent. And if you were going to serve a long stretch inside, you wouldn't want to do it on death row, not by a long shot.
 
TTailedTiger
Topic Author
Posts: 413
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:48 am

salttee wrote:
Jetty wrote:
salttee wrote:
I am opposed to the death penalty simply because it wastes enormous sums of the state's money fighting inevitable appeals; it is welfare for lawyers. Incarceration is much cheaper.

Much cheaper indeed, because they don't get the attention and free appeals that DP convicts get, which got many proven innocent convicted people free. If I'd be convicted while innocent in the US I'd prefer the DP over LWOP. I'm not sure if that's a convincing argument against the DP or a deficit of the US justice system.

99% of death penalty appeals just cause delay, they go nowhere and accomplish nothing. In the case of an innocent person, nothing changes, they can still petition for retrial or try to generate publicity. Pro bono lawyers will work any case where they think the client is innocent. And if you were going to serve a long stretch inside, you wouldn't want to do it on death row, not by a long shot.


At least being on death row you are isolated for the majority of the day. Your chances of being attacked by another prisoner are very slim. Just because I support the death penalty (for those we are certain that are guilty) doesn't mean I have no compassion for inmates. Just the opposite. I think the rate of vioence in prison is appalling. No one should have to worry about being raped, injured, or killed while they are serving their sentence. This is another reason why I support the death penalty. Any prisoner that kills another inmate should be executed in short order.

I am also not a fan of life in prison. Prison should be a place where people are reformed and returned to society. Those who are incapable of reform are what the death penalty is for.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:43 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
salttee wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Much cheaper indeed, because they don't get the attention and free appeals that DP convicts get, which got many proven innocent convicted people free. If I'd be convicted while innocent in the US I'd prefer the DP over LWOP. I'm not sure if that's a convincing argument against the DP or a deficit of the US justice system.

99% of death penalty appeals just cause delay, they go nowhere and accomplish nothing. In the case of an innocent person, nothing changes, they can still petition for retrial or try to generate publicity. Pro bono lawyers will work any case where they think the client is innocent. And if you were going to serve a long stretch inside, you wouldn't want to do it on death row, not by a long shot.


At least being on death row you are isolated for the majority of the day. Your chances of being attacked by another prisoner are very slim. Just because I support the death penalty (for those we are certain that are guilty) doesn't mean I have no compassion for inmates. Just the opposite. I think the rate of vioence in prison is appalling. No one should have to worry about being raped, injured, or killed while they are serving their sentence. This is another reason why I support the death penalty. Any prisoner that kills another inmate should be executed in short order.

I am also not a fan of life in prison. Prison should be a place where people are reformed and returned to society. Those who are incapable of reform are what the death penalty is for.


I agree that the rate of violence in US prisons is ridiculous and that is totally on US society. If you incarcerate people you also have the duty to keep them safe. You are in favor of the death penalty because of a failing prison system in the US? You guys have the largest prison population per capita by far. As far as I can see nothing is really being done to contribute to rehabilitation.
And again, there is no certainty of guilty, you dilute yourself.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
TTailedTiger
Topic Author
Posts: 413
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:51 am

Dutchy wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
salttee wrote:
99% of death penalty appeals just cause delay, they go nowhere and accomplish nothing. In the case of an innocent person, nothing changes, they can still petition for retrial or try to generate publicity. Pro bono lawyers will work any case where they think the client is innocent. And if you were going to serve a long stretch inside, you wouldn't want to do it on death row, not by a long shot.


At least being on death row you are isolated for the majority of the day. Your chances of being attacked by another prisoner are very slim. Just because I support the death penalty (for those we are certain that are guilty) doesn't mean I have no compassion for inmates. Just the opposite. I think the rate of vioence in prison is appalling. No one should have to worry about being raped, injured, or killed while they are serving their sentence. This is another reason why I support the death penalty. Any prisoner that kills another inmate should be executed in short order.

I am also not a fan of life in prison. Prison should be a place where people are reformed and returned to society. Those who are incapable of reform are what the death penalty is for.


I agree that the rate of violence in US prisons is ridiculous and that is totally on US society. If you incarcerate people you also have the duty to keep them safe. You are in favor of the death penalty because of a failing prison system in the US? You guys have the largest prison population per capita by far. As far as I can see nothing is really being done to contribute to rehabilitation.
And again, there is no certainty of guilty, you dilute yourself.


So you think there was some doubt of John Wayne Gacy being guilty?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:39 am

Jetty wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
That is false, you can never be 100% sure, never. So if you are in favor of the death penalty, you automatically take for granted that some innocent people will be executed. If you don't want that, you are automatically against the death penalty.

I bet you are in favor of prison sentences, while you don't want anyone innocent locked up. How is that fundamentally different? Many more people die while being innocent in jails because of natural causes than the DP and time being taken away can't be given back either. In that sense a prison sentence is just as irreversible as the DP, the difference is just semantics.


You can be released from life in prison, you can't be released from death. No semantics at all, a clear and fundamental difference.

Sure prison sentences are a necessity, I think society should not through away human capital though. Life in prison should be given very sparsely and should be given the option for a pardon after a certain period.
I think the justice system exists for 3 reasons: retribution, prevention and security. After a certain period, people will be released back into society. So I believe that prisons should contribute to help these people to fit into society. My vision to life is that you cannot be reminded to your worst act for the rest of your life.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Capital Punihsment in the US and Its Future

Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:52 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

At least being on death row you are isolated for the majority of the day. Your chances of being attacked by another prisoner are very slim. Just because I support the death penalty (for those we are certain that are guilty) doesn't mean I have no compassion for inmates. Just the opposite. I think the rate of vioence in prison is appalling. No one should have to worry about being raped, injured, or killed while they are serving their sentence. This is another reason why I support the death penalty. Any prisoner that kills another inmate should be executed in short order.

I am also not a fan of life in prison. Prison should be a place where people are reformed and returned to society. Those who are incapable of reform are what the death penalty is for.


I agree that the rate of violence in US prisons is ridiculous and that is totally on US society. If you incarcerate people you also have the duty to keep them safe. You are in favor of the death penalty because of a failing prison system in the US? You guys have the largest prison population per capita by far. As far as I can see nothing is really being done to contribute to rehabilitation.
And again, there is no certainty of guilty, you dilute yourself.


So you think there was some doubt of John Wayne Gacy being guilty?


Do you know for 100% that he wasnot insane? Insane people are not responsible for their actions. I do not have in-depth knowledge of the case, that is, before you mentioned it and I looked it up, I never heard of the man. But I am sure, neither have you, no in-depth knowledge of the man and the case. There is always some doubt, it is just not beyond reasonable doubt, which is a good bar to pass. All I am saying is that it is far to easy to say, I am in favor of the death penalty, only in cases where it is 100% sure, so no chance of an innocent being executed. Justice system is performed by humans and humans are failable, per definition. Being in favor of the death penalty, you accept the risk that some might be executed innocent.
I am in favor of prison sentences, I accept the risk that we lock people up who turned out to be innocent.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 395
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Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:06 am

As much as I find the death penalty abhorent, what America decides, is up to America. Not the business of anyone else is it.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:56 pm

I don't believe in the death penalty. The US justice system is just too problematic for me to be ok with it executing people.

That said, if we are going to bother with executions and believe they act as a deterrent (I don't - it is no coincidence that the states with capital punishment also have the highest violent crime rates) then they should be not be sterile, silent deaths but public spectacles. They should be out there burning folks at the stake, guillotining and garroting, hanging, firing squading, drawing and quartering, crossbowing, and poisoning and the public should be able to witness it - that is they only way capital punishment would ever deter someone. It should be like Game of Thrones in the public square.
 
TTailedTiger
Topic Author
Posts: 413
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Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:30 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
I don't believe in the death penalty. The US justice system is just too problematic for me to be ok with it executing people.

That said, if we are going to bother with executions and believe they act as a deterrent (I don't - it is no coincidence that the states with capital punishment also have the highest violent crime rates) then they should be not be sterile, silent deaths but public spectacles. They should be out there burning folks at the stake, guillotining and garroting, hanging, firing squading, drawing and quartering, crossbowing, and poisoning and the public should be able to witness it - that is they only way capital punishment would ever deter someone. It should be like Game of Thrones in the public square.


Let me get this straight. You believe having the death penalty encourages people to murder?
 
salttee
Posts: 3024
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:06 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Let me get this straight. You believe having the death penalty encourages people to murder?

Where did you get the idea that usflyer said that?
Or are you just trying to be argumentative again?
 
TTailedTiger
Topic Author
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Capital punishment in the US and Its future

Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:27 pm

salttee wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Let me get this straight. You believe having the death penalty encourages people to murder?

Where did you get the idea that usflyer said that?
Or are you just trying to be argumentative again?


He said states with the death peablty have more murders. He must think there is a correlation.

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