anrec80
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:47 am

Dutchy wrote:
Probably the same as Jeltsin, the successor will protect Putin and his family and thus he and keep his stolen fortune.


Then where's this fortune? He was rumored to have $40bn, $100bn, even $200bn - but where is at least some? How come nobody on the West can't find any for almost 2 decades?
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:50 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I don't know how I feel about this... If the Russian people let him get away with making himself president for life (de facto or de jure) then it's probably the fate they deserve

Not that I would like that but I don't know how I would change that


It won't be "the fate they deserved", it will be the decision that's up to them to make. And - Putin was asked if he wants to be lifetime President. The answer was brief - "No!".
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:53 am

Mortyman wrote:
The US has already and will no doubt try and do it again, just like they have in many other countries in South America for instance. Russia is not the only country that interfere in other countries ellections. It's naiv to think that.


Of course they will try, and are constantly looking for ways to do that, preparing "opposition bloggers", trying to give out grants. Other story is that after interference attempts of 2012 and new legislature that was passed it will be very hard for them to do so to make any noticeable impact.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:31 am

anrec80 wrote:
And - Putin was asked if he wants to be lifetime President. The answer was brief - "No!".

Oh well that settles it :roll:
 
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Aesma
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:22 am

Interesting article about life in Russia : https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46617186
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:39 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Probably the same as Jeltsin, the successor will protect Putin and his family and thus he and keep his stolen fortune.


Then where's this fortune? He was rumored to have $40bn, $100bn, even $200bn - but where is at least some? How come nobody on the West can't find any for almost 2 decades?


How do you see the presidency of Putin end? Simple retirement?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:28 am

[Quote=Dutchy]
How do you see the presidency of Putin end? Simple retirement?[/quote]

I see (and hope) it will proceed something like grooming a competent sucessor in the next 5 years who will have a responsible position, and after thr next election when the sucessor is elected, Putin will be given some senior advisor role to the new President.

That is what I hope and think that is the direction they are going in.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:39 am

You hope and think Russia well stay an oligarchy after Putin. I think you are right, just like Putin succeeded Jeltsin.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:39 am

BN747 wrote:

Our intel agencies have watched him since he was a junior KGB officer. They know his means. methods and tactics...he is Russia. They know it all too well and thank goodness, we have them paying very close to his every word. And his actions all point towards that meaning.

Vladimir (Pooty's first name) ...any idea what that means? Ask any Russian in the know, they will tell you he is living up to his name - to the letter.

So instead of taking the Russian people's views...I'll stick with US Intell's view of Russian matters.

BN747


You are kidding right?

Your Intel agencies and analysts have been absolutely incompetent when it comes to anything Russia related since the end of the cold war.

Couple years back read an interview from some former CIA analyst where the guy admitted that since the end of the Cold War Russia hadn't been a popular subject for new employees and experienced ones from the Cold War days are out or on their way out.

Just read the news for the last 10 years. You guys have been caught with your pants down on pretty much anything Russia has done and your reactions haven't had any effect at best, or got turned around by Russia to Russia's interests...
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
BN747
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:15 am

anrec80 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
That makes no sense whatsoever.
We should start taking in the views of the people re:Putin.
That is tantamount to saying that we should consider the views of the people of Lil Kim in North Korea.


Well - you seem to be forgetting that both Russia and North Korea are two independent sovereign nations. And it's up to them to decide who and how governs them, be it Putin in Russia or Kim in NK.



And you seem to forget that 'it's okay to say what you're saying/thinking' because you don't live under that type of system.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
BN747
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:19 am

tu204 wrote:
BN747 wrote:

Our intel agencies have watched him since he was a junior KGB officer. They know his means. methods and tactics...he is Russia. They know it all too well and thank goodness, we have them paying very close to his every word. And his actions all point towards that meaning.

Vladimir (Pooty's first name) ...any idea what that means? Ask any Russian in the know, they will tell you he is living up to his name - to the letter.

So instead of taking the Russian people's views...I'll stick with US Intell's view of Russian matters.

BN747


You are kidding right?

Your Intel agencies and analysts have been absolutely incompetent when it comes to anything Russia related since the end of the cold war.

.... You guys have been caught with your pants down on pretty much anything Russia has done and your reactions haven't had any effect at best, or got turned around by Russia to Russia's interests...



What the hell are you taking about?

Anything specific will do.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:31 am

Dutchy wrote:
How do you see the presidency of Putin end? Simple retirement?


Yes, I hope for that. That will show that steady and stable state institutions in Russia have developed under Putin.

Putin is the first person to be interested in steady statehood, so that he actually can retire and get some life to himself in Russia. My view - he probably will spend some time in a high ranking position of an advisor of some sort, before leaving the political stage. But he has 5 more years to go, let’s see.
 
tu204
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:36 am

Dutchy wrote:
You hope and think Russia well stay an oligarchy after Putin. I think you are right, just like Putin succeeded Jeltsin.


Nope.

First of all Russia is not ab Oligarchy under Putin, it was under Yeltsin, one that was a sell out at that.
Under Putin "siloviki" (security/intelligence empliyees) are in power. And I hope it stays that way.

Also Putin succeded Yeltsin in the latter's hope that things would stay the same (oligarchs in power and so on) + he wouldn't be prosecuted.
That first part of his plan failed when Putin replaced Yeltsin's buddy Oligarchs with his buddies from the FSB and other other intelligence agencies, something I greatly applaud him for.

What I hope to see is not some last minute guy or gal getting promoted as a succesor, but someone starting right now, so in 5 years they would have support from the population to get elected and continue in the general direction we are going now, but hopefully with more attention to internal development and reforms in some areas.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:38 am

BN747 wrote:

And you seem to forget that 'it's okay to say what you're saying/thinking' because you don't live under that type of system.

BN747


Yes, I do not live under that type of system - but so what? The change in a political system of a country must be driven by people living in that country, at the pace that works for them. It should not be influenced from outside. Foreign interference in such matters leads to nothing but disasters. We may have our opinions on North Korean political system and/or Russian leadership, but ultimately it’s up to people living in those countries - we ought to respect their choice. It’s not our business simply. So yes - if North Koreans want to have an institution of “The Great Leader” - they can have it anyhow they like, and don’t have to not ask anyone’s permissions for that.
 
tu204
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:40 am

BN747 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
BN747 wrote:

Our intel agencies have watched him since he was a junior KGB officer. They know his means. methods and tactics...he is Russia. They know it all too well and thank goodness, we have them paying very close to his every word. And his actions all point towards that meaning.

Vladimir (Pooty's first name) ...any idea what that means? Ask any Russian in the know, they will tell you he is living up to his name - to the letter.

So instead of taking the Russian people's views...I'll stick with US Intell's view of Russian matters.

BN747


You are kidding right?

Your Intel agencies and analysts have been absolutely incompetent when it comes to anything Russia related since the end of the cold war.

.... You guys have been caught with your pants down on pretty much anything Russia has done and your reactions haven't had any effect at best, or got turned around by Russia to Russia's interests...



What the hell are you taking about?

Anything specific will do.

BN747


Kosovo/Georgia/S.Ossetia
2012 Russian elections and incompetently placed U.S. support that aliebated opposition politicians
Crimea
Sanctions

Pretty much anything to do with Russia...
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:53 am

Dutchy wrote:
You hope and think Russia well stay an oligarchy after Putin. I think you are right, just like Putin succeeded Jeltsin.


Actually in Russia there’s an opinion that there is only one “oligarch” left. They see an “oligarch” as someone who took former state’s property and is living off it, significantly influencing state’s politics. In Russia, large businesses do not have anywhere as much influence on politics as its American or German competitors. So if we want to call Russian an opligarchy, then we have to call oligarchy the USA and Germany.

Classical oligarchies - those are the most “democratic” countries of CIS - Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine. The first two are simplest cases - they each have one billionaire, who holds the whole economy and simply employs Parliament political parties with their MPs. So he is the one who writes the laws and runs the country, and doesn’t care who voted for whom. They are small poor countries, and they can support only one oligarch.

Ukraine is a bit more complex example - there are a few Oligarchs, each having a few dozens of MPs in Parliament, control over certain regions with economic activity (mostly Southern and Eastern ones; people of this caliber don’t care about poor Western regions, except use them as voting base to get more MPs they can call their own into the Parliament). Control politically and economically, of course - major enterprises, politicians, regional law enforcement institutions, private groups of “fighters” who can be organized as a private army - trained, motivated, well armed and equipped, up to grenade launchers and armored vehicles.

Russia is nothing close to any of the above. They don’t have regional armies anywhere there.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:29 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
How do you see the presidency of Putin end? Simple retirement?


Yes, I hope for that. That will show that steady and stable state institutions in Russia have developed under Putin.

Putin is the first person to be interested in steady statehood, so that he actually can retire and get some life to himself in Russia. My view - he probably will spend some time in a high ranking position of an advisor of some sort, before leaving the political stage. But he has 5 more years to go, let’s see.


Steady statehood, sure, and a stable Russia is in his view a repressing Putin regime and an eventual successor will come out of the oligarchs around Putin in order to protect the oligarchs.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:31 am

Aesma wrote:
Interesting article about life in Russia : https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46617186

RU poverty rate. 1/5th ( rather unscientific, but what the heck.

compare US : 1/3rd of population can be seen as living in poverty.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:56 am

anrec80 wrote:
Actually in Russia there’s an opinion that there is only one “oligarch” left. They see an “oligarch” as someone who took former state’s property and is living off it, significantly influencing state’s politics. In Russia, large businesses do not have anywhere as much influence on politics as its American or German competitors. So if we want to call Russian an opligarchy, then we have to call oligarchy the USA and Germany.

Classical oligarchies - those are the most “democratic” countries of CIS - Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine. The first two are simplest cases - they each have one billionaire, who holds the whole economy and simply employs Parliament political parties with their MPs. So he is the one who writes the laws and runs the country, and doesn’t care who voted for whom. They are small poor countries, and they can support only one oligarch.

Ukraine is a bit more complex example - there are a few Oligarchs, each having a few dozens of MPs in Parliament, control over certain regions with economic activity (mostly Southern and Eastern ones; people of this caliber don’t care about poor Western regions, except use them as voting base to get more MPs they can call their own into the Parliament). Control politically and economically, of course - major enterprises, politicians, regional law enforcement institutions, private groups of “fighters” who can be organized as a private army - trained, motivated, well armed and equipped, up to grenade launchers and armored vehicles.

Russia is nothing close to any of the above. They don’t have regional armies anywhere there.


No indeed. In Russia, it is the other way around. Politicians tell companies what to do and how much is skimmed off the top for the oligarchies. In that way, Russia isn't an oligarchy, thanks for correcting me. Putin controls everything and only needs to listen a bit to the oligarchs around him.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:59 am

WIederling wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Interesting article about life in Russia : https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46617186

RU poverty rate. 1/5th ( rather unscientific, but what the heck.

compare US : 1/3rd of population can be seen as living in poverty.


The living standard in Russia is much lower, so is the poverty standard. The median wealth per capita in Russia is lower than in India, yet the average wealth in Russia is much higher than in India. Translation, the wealth cap in Russia is much greater than in India.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:04 am

anrec80 wrote:
BN747 wrote:

And you seem to forget that 'it's okay to say what you're saying/thinking' because you don't live under that type of system.

BN747


Yes, I do not live under that type of system - but so what? The change in a political system of a country must be driven by people living in that country, at the pace that works for them. It should not be influenced from outside. Foreign interference in such matters leads to nothing but disasters. We may have our opinions on North Korean political system and/or Russian leadership, but ultimately it’s up to people living in those countries - we ought to respect their choice. It’s not our business simply. So yes - if North Koreans want to have an institution of “The Great Leader” - they can have it anyhow they like, and don’t have to not ask anyone’s permissions for that.


I strenuously object to this line of reasoning. It is utter foolishness to say the North Koreans have chosen to live in these kinds of criminal conditions. It is the same as you say, that woman has chosen to be raped.
By saying this you disqualify immediately for any moral discussion.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:23 am

Dutchy wrote:
The living standard in Russia is much lower, so is the poverty standard. The median wealth per capita in Russia is lower than in India, yet the average wealth in Russia is much higher than in India. Translation, the wealth cap in Russia is much greater than in India.


Now do the same intellectual exercise for the US.
The long in development "no middle class" situation in the US is very similar to what the Yeltsin presidency
achieved in a few year under American guidance. Population on subsistence while a small group is insanely rich.
Afaics RU politics after Yeltsin is trying to turn that wheel back into a sane position.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:31 am

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The living standard in Russia is much lower, so is the poverty standard. The median wealth per capita in Russia is lower than in India, yet the average wealth in Russia is much higher than in India. Translation, the wealth cap in Russia is much greater than in India.


Now do the same intellectual exercise for the US.
The long in development "no middle class" situation in the US is very similar to what the Yeltsin presidency
achieved in a few year under American guidance. Population on subsistence while a small group is insanely rich.
Afaics RU politics after Yeltsin is trying to turn that wheel back into a sane position.


Although the middle class in America is suffering, it is in no way comparable to Russia. Your intellectual exercise of whataboutism, doesn't always fly and it is getting old and tiresome.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:37 am

Lol@ everyone implying Russia is moving away from an oligarchy. If it is, it's moving back to monarchy only because Putin dreams of being a tsar.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:04 pm

BN747 wrote:
My point is the Russian people could couldn't care less of what is on the minds of Americans...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:26 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Lol@ everyone implying Russia is moving away from an oligarchy. If it is, it's moving back to monarchy only because Putin dreams of being a tsar.


Dream? For all practical purposes, Russia is a monarchy, just the power doesn't shift to next of kin, but to someone whom protects its pre-successors.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:30 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
BN747 wrote:
My point is the Russian people could couldn't care less of what is on the minds of Americans...

Idioms are idioms.


https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/0 ... think.html
 
BN747
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:49 pm

tu204 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
tu204 wrote:

You are kidding right?

Your Intel agencies and analysts have been absolutely incompetent when it comes to anything Russia related since the end of the cold war.

.... You guys have been caught with your pants down on pretty much anything Russia has done and your reactions haven't had any effect at best, or got turned around by Russia to Russia's interests...



What the hell are you taking about?

Anything specific will do.

BN747


Kosovo/Georgia/S.Ossetia
2012 Russian elections and incompetently placed U.S. support that aliebated opposition politicians
Crimea
Sanctions

Pretty much anything to do with Russia...



Wow!!! These are your scoring points on US intel failures???

Are you on 10 kinds crack???

I googled up 'Kosovo/Georgia/S.Ossetia'...
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2008/ ... not-kosovo

This the most telling piece to me...
"Yet the West is right to respond firmly to Russia's new belligerence by refusing to recognise the new states. Never mind that Russia is itself being incoherent in continuing to insist that Kosovo's independence from Serbia is still illegal (a stance driven in part by its wish to avoid setting a precedent for Chechnya or other restive republics within Russia). Mr Medvedev's assertion of a parallel between Kosovo and South Ossetia is almost entirely bogus.

This is not to deny the superficial similarities that the West would do well to accept. NATO's air war on Kosovo and Serbia in 1999 was, like the Iraq war in 2003, conducted without the legal approval of the United Nations. Both wars were aimed in part at regime change. Last February's recognition by many Western countries of Kosovo's independence from Serbia again lacked formal UN blessing (thanks to Russia's threatened veto). All this made it inevitable that Kosovo, like Iraq, would be cited as justification for other adventures. The West knew that Kosovo's independence, in particular, risked becoming an excuse for Russian recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia."

...for the life of me, I can't see any big Russian victory here anywhere? But you feel this is a 'Mr Gorbachev. tear down this wall' moment, then dream on til the cows come home you've got the only person anyone knows running around bragging about 'Kosovo/Georgia/S.Ossetia'.'.

Only one question - how does 'whatever happened in 'Kosovo/Georgia/S.Ossetia'. impact US Interests, I'm not seeing it.


2012 Russian elections and incompetently placed U.S. support that aliebated opposition politicians

Oh? A Russian politician was financially backed by American mobsters? The FSB/KGB/GRU all had evidence of this and shut it down???? This is news to me....but I think Mikhail Kordokovsky was locked back then (but he was certainly no US agent/asset like TTrump.

Crimea

Russian attack on sovereign Ukraine turf is an aggressive action that could have been stop by what? US Intel??? Who? Better still, HOW???? You must have the answer because because you're championing this 'victory' as a USA failure (which is weird because we don't have bases in Ukraine. Nor any defense treaties...soooo now what?


Sanctions You are calling the US Obama era Sanctions on Russia (for Crimea) being dismantled by TTrump/Pooty Russian Inc..a victory???

You do know they are still pretty intact, right? Bigger still....Mueller has yet to weigh in on TTrump/Pooty & Russia Inc - Sanctions will get worse. Question is can the subpar Russian Economy endure such a punch.

"Pretty much anything to do with Russia"...huh, well you don't know America at all fella, let me put it this way, strap in and buckle up, the shit is about to get real for Russia in a way Pooty never expects it.

But as far as the Cold War, we won ...

Round one - Mr Gorbachev. tear down this wall' event
Round two - Russia successfully selects an agent as US President.
Round three - who's standing when the dust settles? - your chips are clearly on Russia, mine are America mofo!

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:02 pm

Sober assessments finger Person1 not as an agent but as an asset. There is some difference. But still not a comforting reality.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
WIederling
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:53 pm

BN747 wrote:
But as far as the Cold War, we won ...

Round one - Mr Gorbachev. tear down this wall' event
Round two - Russia successfully selects an agent as US President.
Round three - who's standing when the dust settles? - your chips are clearly on Russia, mine are America mofo!

Man. What did they teach you in school?

let me add some items.

Able Archer nearly created a nuclear destruction fest.
Round one - Mr Gorbachev. tear down this wall' event
:: probably overvalued as a historic turning point.::

The US successfully inserted their shill as president of the RF
( Boris Yeltsin who never ever was sober again. )
Rise of the oligarchs in the alcoholic wake of the president.

US is in love with their new toy.
..
Vladimir Putin "infiltrated" as successor to Yeltsin..
..
US starts to squall as they and their oligarch friends face blowback
from the new rather patriotic administration. patriotism only allowed for Americans as first class humans!

Round two - Russia successfully selects an agent as US President.
questionable. What Cambridge Analytics effected weighs much stronger into the vote outcome.


Round three - who's standing when the dust settles? - your chips are clearly on Russia, mine are America mofo!

With all the vast effort invested in snooping, propping up minorities and terrorists and power projection
the US appears to still be losing influence world wide.
Murphy is an optimist
 
BN747
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:20 pm

WIederling wrote:
BN747 wrote:
But as far as the Cold War, we won ...

Round one - Mr Gorbachev. tear down this wall' event
Round two - Russia successfully selects an agent as US President.
Round three - who's standing when the dust settles? - your chips are clearly on Russia, mine are America mofo!

Man. What did they teach you in school?


Apparently much more than what you came away with...you're closing comments confirm that.
To start, there was no Gorbachev leader when I was in school, although observing world affairs and paying attention to global affairs, was he a US Agent too?


WIederling wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Round one - Mr Gorbachev. tear down this wall' event
:: probably overvalued as a historic turning point.::

The US successfully inserted their shill as president of the RF
( Boris Yeltsin who never ever was sober again. )
Rise of the oligarchs in the alcoholic wake of the president.

US is in love with their new toy.
..
Vladimir Putin "infiltrated" as successor to Yeltsin..


A very anemic try by you to minimize the mass exodus of nations from USSR after fall of the Berlin Wall...a huge coup in global terms - past and present.

But I'm sure in your twisted mind that was a big Russia win! I'm surprised you didn't crow about that one.

Soooooo....who planted Yeltsin inside the Russian cog? JFK? No school in America is teaching that one...but if Pooty's Bitch pulls off his mission, it'll be lesson taught in every class.

WIederling wrote:
US starts to squall as they and their oligarch friends face blowback
from the new rather patriotic administration. patriotism only allowed for Americans as first class humans!


No fn idea what any of that prattle is about.


WIederling wrote:
Round two - Russia successfully selects an agent as US President.
questionable. What Cambridge Analytics effected weighs much stronger into the vote outcome.


Round three - who's standing when the dust settles? - your chips are clearly on Russia, mine are America mofo!

With all the vast effort invested in snooping, propping up minorities and terrorists and power projection
the US appears to still be losing influence world wide.


Zat so? Snooping is something invented by the Catholic Church and used by every nation since. The place where you reside snoops as you type. So what's beef with US snooping? They too big? Too what? I wonder what you'd think of old 'spy on your neighbors' snoop tactics of Russia of old.

What terrorist does the US support? Black Lives Matter?

Propping up minorities??? WTF is that? Answer: something from the mouth of one extremely ignorant of the Civil Rights era.

You've got some serious US Hate burning in your shorts fella.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
tu204
Posts: 1737
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:45 pm

BN747 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
BN747 wrote:


What the hell are you taking about?

Anything specific will do.

BN747


Kosovo/Georgia/S.Ossetia
2012 Russian elections and incompetently placed U.S. support that aliebated opposition politicians
Crimea
Sanctions

Pretty much anything to do with Russia...



Wow!!! These are your scoring points on US intel failures???

Are you on 10 kinds crack???

I googled up 'Kosovo/Georgia/S.Ossetia'...
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2008/ ... not-kosovo

This the most telling piece to me...
"Yet the West is right to respond firmly to Russia's new belligerence by refusing to recognise the new states. Never mind that Russia is itself being incoherent in continuing to insist that Kosovo's independence from Serbia is still illegal (a stance driven in part by its wish to avoid setting a precedent for Chechnya or other restive republics within Russia). Mr Medvedev's assertion of a parallel between Kosovo and South Ossetia is almost entirely bogus.

This is not to deny the superficial similarities that the West would do well to accept. NATO's air war on Kosovo and Serbia in 1999 was, like the Iraq war in 2003, conducted without the legal approval of the United Nations. Both wars were aimed in part at regime change. Last February's recognition by many Western countries of Kosovo's independence from Serbia again lacked formal UN blessing (thanks to Russia's threatened veto). All this made it inevitable that Kosovo, like Iraq, would be cited as justification for other adventures. The West knew that Kosovo's independence, in particular, risked becoming an excuse for Russian recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia."

...for the life of me, I can't see any big Russian victory here anywhere? But you feel this is a 'Mr Gorbachev. tear down this wall' moment, then dream on til the cows come home you've got the only person anyone knows running around bragging about 'Kosovo/Georgia/S.Ossetia'.'.

Only one question - how does 'whatever happened in 'Kosovo/Georgia/S.Ossetia'. impact US Interests, I'm not seeing it.


2012 Russian elections and incompetently placed U.S. support that aliebated opposition politicians

Oh? A Russian politician was financially backed by American mobsters? The FSB/KGB/GRU all had evidence of this and shut it down???? This is news to me....but I think Mikhail Kordokovsky was locked back then (but he was certainly no US agent/asset like TTrump.

Crimea

Russian attack on sovereign Ukraine turf is an aggressive action that could have been stop by what? US Intel??? Who? Better still, HOW???? You must have the answer because because you're championing this 'victory' as a USA failure (which is weird because we don't have bases in Ukraine. Nor any defense treaties...soooo now what?


Sanctions You are calling the US Obama era Sanctions on Russia (for Crimea) being dismantled by TTrump/Pooty Russian Inc..a victory???

You do know they are still pretty intact, right? Bigger still....Mueller has yet to weigh in on TTrump/Pooty & Russia Inc - Sanctions will get worse. Question is can the subpar Russian Economy endure such a punch.

"Pretty much anything to do with Russia"...huh, well you don't know America at all fella, let me put it this way, strap in and buckle up, the shit is about to get real for Russia in a way Pooty never expects it.

But as far as the Cold War, we won ...

Round one - Mr Gorbachev. tear down this wall' event
Round two - Russia successfully selects an agent as US President.
Round three - who's standing when the dust settles? - your chips are clearly on Russia, mine are America mofo!

BN747


Can't say about what I'm on, but I sure hope you've on somethin' otherwise either you ain't as bright as you think yourself to be. It's not that hard to see the big picture or to read between the lines in those 4 points I put out. I didn't go further because I figured it wouldn't take much to dig just a wee bit deeper and see the fuckup the U.S. created for themselves in these 4 scenarios.

1) The U.S. backed Georgia. Pretty intensely - trained their rag-tag army, propped up their dimwit of a president and so on. Then you guys go ahead and push for the unilateral declaration of independence of Kosovo, then you guys give that dimwit the idea that he can do what he likes and he gets his ass handed to him (and a bunch of goodies for Russian soldiers to bring home that that Georgian Army you guys trained barely had time to leave behind as they were chasin' your dudes, who barely had time to abandon the capitol and your little puppet, who was cowering, afraid to get himself hung by the cahoonas.)
You gave a carte blanche for Russia to recognize these two now independent countries that was looking for an excuse for the last 15 years and showed that your support is worthless to the whole world.

2) Your idiot embassador to Russia invited pretty much the entire opposition to receptions at the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, alienating them from the Russian population and showed them to be complete sellouts, killing any respect/ratings/chances they ever had...which wasn't much btw.
Killed the entire Russian opposition to Putin in one shot, rally the rest of the population around Putin and United Russia? Putin and United Russia didn't have to do anything. Just put a couple people with cheap cameras around the U.S. embassy and you guys did the rest of the work yourselves screwing yourselves.
We can really save money on our PR guys, all we have to do is let your guys do their thing, get the popcorn out and watch everything come back and hit you in the face.

3) Crimea - You sponsored and supported an illegal coup in Ukraine thinkin' it was a turkey shoot. Shit your pants when Russia used the mess you created to take back a strategically important region and have it overwhelmingly join the RF. At the same time you got stuck supporting an Ukranian version of Yeltsin and Hussein (alchoholic dictator) that you can't ditch, cause you supported him in the beginning and can't lose face now, that constantly begs you guys for money.
Yeah, you don't have any bases there, you don't need to. The fact that your guys threw their weight behind this coup is enough to show that you supported them. And they got nothing out of it, lost land and got thrown under the bus. No wonder anyone with problems and needing assistance these days is coming to Russia, and not the U.S.

4) Sanctions - you missed my point.
In the long term Russia has turned every sanction thrown at us to Russia's benefit. Be it boosting agricultural production almost twofold, industrial production and economic instruments. Without these sanctions, it was comfortable I guess to import chicken from the U.S., apples from the E.U. and use Visa/Mastercard giving them a comission off of every transaction taking place in Russia. However your stupid actions got Russians to get off their asses and actually develop these industries.

So I don't know what you are smokin', but just these points show that either your guys are incompetent, our guys are brilliant, or your guys are actually our guys in disguise.
Hell, I don't know which one to chose. I think something between choice 1 and 2.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I strenuously object to this line of reasoning. It is utter foolishness to say the North Koreans have chosen to live in these kinds of criminal conditions. It is the same as you say, that woman has chosen to be raped.
By saying this you disqualify immediately for any moral discussion.


Well, how this choice was made during 1960s, I do not now all the details, can’t speak. What I am saying here - of North Koreans want the change, they must be driving it themselves, making choices themselves, and determining how they want to see their country being run. There should not be absolutely any foreign teaching, advice, pressure, interference. At all. All attempts of such “teaching” and interference led to nothing but disasters and catastrophes - Iraq, Yugoslavia, Ukraine, Moldova, and many others.

Yes, I do believe that hard working North Koreans do deserve much better living standards. But they need to arrive to it themselves, and they should be taking all the time they need for that. Results of any foreign “helping hand and advice” will be disastrous.
Last edited by anrec80 on Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:02 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
BN747 wrote:
My point is the Russian people could couldn't care less of what is on the minds of Americans...


Russian nation has its own desires and interests, just as American one. And they have all the rights to stand for them, and do so.
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:29 pm

Dutchy wrote:
No indeed. In Russia, it is the other way around. Politicians tell companies what to do and how much is skimmed off the top for the oligarchies. In that way, Russia isn't an oligarchy, thanks for correcting me. Putin controls everything and only needs to listen a bit to the oligarchs around him.


In Russia it’s the same way as it’s in most other countries, including USA and Germany. In Russia, there certainly is large business, just as in Europe or USA. Yes, government listens to the needs and interests of large businesses, just as any other government does. Yes, in Russia as well large businesses have to listen to state’s decrees, just as in USA and Europe - follow sanctions, executive orders, regulations, pay taxes, etc.

For example, Germany is advocating Nord Stream - because its major employers and businesses need this cheap and abundant pipeline gas right next to them. Yes, most of other EU is against this project, sure - Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, Baltic states. But the German Chancellor Merkel (or her successors for this reason) need people to be employed, and taxes to be flowing in, whether someone likes it or not. Hence they are like snakes on a frying pan - trying to please Americans who want to push their LNG, Eurocomission with Poland and Baltic states in it by saying “this is not EU jurisdiction and commercial project”, Ukraine with its influence by promising some transit, and yet progressing with laying pipes for this mainline.
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:52 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Although the middle class in America is suffering, it is in no way comparable to Russia. Your intellectual exercise of whataboutism, doesn't always fly and it is getting old and tiresome.


Dutchy, you obviously aren’t in a mood lately. :lol: How your holidays are going?

Russia and USA each have different challenges. In Russia - yes, salaries are lower. Together with that, homeownership rate in Russia is well above 90%, and mortgages are being few and far in between (mostly in major cities). Most common way in Russia to acquire a place to live - as cynical as it sounds - is still old-fashioned “to wait for Grandma’s time”. Challenge - salaries are lower, but that combined with low utilities costs, low income taxes (13% flat), no mortgage or rent to pay - yields a Russian worker living standard comparable to the Western one, maybe somewhat lower. But nobody in Russia talks about not being able to put food on the table, or not being able to afford heat. For my mom in Canada the latter is a challenge - electrical heating is expensive in winter (even though it does not get below freezing in Vancouver area), and she has to control in what rooms the heat is on, and where it’s off.

All that - while in the USA we are constantly reading in media how some families struggle to have food on their table. The major challenge for middle class - not even pricing and affordability of housing, but affordability of housing where career opportunities and jobs are. There is plenty of affordable market-rate housing within 2-3 hours of drive/train ride from NYC even, but nobody wants to go there. Even NYC retirees who aren’t working and are on guaranteed pension income don’t want to change their lifestyle and are crying how expensive it is in the City, and fighting to death for their rent-stabilized apartments.

Hence normal comparison of GDP/GDP per capita doesn’t really draw accurate picture.
 
BN747
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:01 pm

anrec80 wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
BN747 wrote:
My point is the Russian people could couldn't care less of what is on the minds of Americans...


Russian nation has its own desires and interests, just as American one. And they have all the rights to stand for them, and do so.



Yup...with one BIG difference.

One side supports the notion of the citizens selecting their leaders and prefer the Rights people over the Rights of the Leader.

YOUR side prefers to defer all authority to complete police state with zero accountability.

Good to see you prefer the one that you do, I'm just wondering why you have not moved there yet? What's the hold up Mr Sideliner?

tu204 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Kosovo/Georgia/S.Ossetia
2012 Russian elections and incompetently placed U.S. support that aliebated opposition politicians
Crimea
Sanctions

Pretty much anything to do with Russia...



Wow!!! These are your scoring points on US intel failures???

Are you on 10 kinds crack???

I googled up 'Kosovo/Georgia/S.Ossetia'...
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2008/ ... not-kosovo

This the most telling piece to me...
"Yet the West is right to respond firmly to Russia's new belligerence by refusing to recognise the new states. Never mind that Russia is itself being incoherent in continuing to insist that Kosovo's independence from Serbia is still illegal (a stance driven in part by its wish to avoid setting a precedent for Chechnya or other restive republics within Russia). Mr Medvedev's assertion of a parallel between Kosovo and South Ossetia is almost entirely bogus.

This is not to deny the superficial similarities that the West would do well to accept. NATO's air war on Kosovo and Serbia in 1999 was, like the Iraq war in 2003, conducted without the legal approval of the United Nations. Both wars were aimed in part at regime change. Last February's recognition by many Western countries of Kosovo's independence from Serbia again lacked formal UN blessing (thanks to Russia's threatened veto). All this made it inevitable that Kosovo, like Iraq, would be cited as justification for other adventures. The West knew that Kosovo's independence, in particular, risked becoming an excuse for Russian recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia."

...for the life of me, I can't see any big Russian victory here anywhere? But you feel this is a 'Mr Gorbachev. tear down this wall' moment, then dream on til the cows come home you've got the only person anyone knows running around bragging about 'Kosovo/Georgia/S.Ossetia'.'.

Only one question - how does 'whatever happened in 'Kosovo/Georgia/S.Ossetia'. impact US Interests, I'm not seeing it.


2012 Russian elections and incompetently placed U.S. support that aliebated opposition politicians

Oh? A Russian politician was financially backed by American mobsters? The FSB/KGB/GRU all had evidence of this and shut it down???? This is news to me....but I think Mikhail Kordokovsky was locked back then (but he was certainly no US agent/asset like TTrump.

Crimea

Russian attack on sovereign Ukraine turf is an aggressive action that could have been stop by what? US Intel??? Who? Better still, HOW???? You must have the answer because because you're championing this 'victory' as a USA failure (which is weird because we don't have bases in Ukraine. Nor any defense treaties...soooo now what?


Sanctions You are calling the US Obama era Sanctions on Russia (for Crimea) being dismantled by TTrump/Pooty Russian Inc..a victory???

You do know they are still pretty intact, right? Bigger still....Mueller has yet to weigh in on TTrump/Pooty & Russia Inc - Sanctions will get worse. Question is can the subpar Russian Economy endure such a punch.

"Pretty much anything to do with Russia"...huh, well you don't know America at all fella, let me put it this way, strap in and buckle up, the shit is about to get real for Russia in a way Pooty never expects it.

But as far as the Cold War, we won ...

Round one - Mr Gorbachev. tear down this wall' event
Round two - Russia successfully selects an agent as US President.
Round three - who's standing when the dust settles? - your chips are clearly on Russia, mine are America mofo!

BN747


Can't say about what I'm on, but I sure hope you've on somethin' otherwise either you ain't as bright as you think yourself to be. It's not that hard to see the big picture or to read between the lines in those 4 points I put out. I didn't go further because I figured it wouldn't take much to dig just a wee bit deeper and see the fuckup the U.S. created for themselves in these 4 scenarios.

1) The U.S. backed Georgia. Pretty intensely - trained their rag-tag army, propped up their dimwit of a president and so on. Then you guys go ahead and push for the unilateral declaration of independence of Kosovo, then you guys give that dimwit the idea that he can do what he likes and he gets his ass handed to him (and a bunch of goodies for Russian soldiers to bring home that that Georgian Army you guys trained barely had time to leave behind as they were chasin' your dudes, who barely had time to abandon the capitol and your little puppet, who was cowering, afraid to get himself hung by the cahoonas.)
You gave a carte blanche for Russia to recognize these two now independent countries that was looking for an excuse for the last 15 years and showed that your support is worthless to the whole world.


I'm do not possess the knowledge of actual events of the Georgia (you'd be lucky to find 20 Americans who do out of 300 million)story, so I'll wait for someone (hopefully a European) will come along and provide us with a fair neutral summation of occurrences there. Your version is dripping in so much RED, Russia has import ink from China to keep you supplied. In other words - I don't believe a word you said above because I know for fact you know absolute zero about US Military objections, tactics, readiness nor mission prioritizing. Given that, I'll just say you have a very red view of events sans any room for any other considerations. Georgia, it just is no big deal, who knew?


tu204 wrote:

2) Your idiot embassador to Russia invited pretty much the entire opposition to receptions at the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, alienating them from the Russian population and showed them to be complete sellouts, killing any respect/ratings/chances they ever had...which wasn't much btw.
Killed the entire Russian opposition to Putin in one shot, rally the rest of the population around Putin and United Russia? Putin and United Russia didn't have to do anything. Just put a couple people with cheap cameras around the U.S. embassy and you guys did the rest of the work yourselves screwing yourselves.
We can really save money on our PR guys, all we have to do is let your guys do their thing, get the popcorn out and watch everything come back and hit you in the face.


It sounds like you're ,ore pissed at not being invited to the party than anything else. But IF this exactly what happened you're even more idiotic for believing 'that America would seriously embark on an authentic mission of such nature' versus how it actually appears - which seems to me (given your description) that this was rouse of sorts with a completely different objective than the obvious conclusion you've reached. I think you were suckered on that one.
'

tu204 wrote:
3) Crimea - You sponsored and supported an illegal coup in Ukraine thinkin' it was a turkey shoot. Shit your pants when Russia used the mess you created to take back a strategically important region and have it overwhelmingly join the RF. At the same time you got stuck supporting an Ukranian version of Yeltsin and Hussein (alchoholic dictator) that you can't ditch, cause you supported him in the beginning and can't lose face now, that constantly begs you guys for money.
Yeah, you don't have any bases there, you don't need to. The fact that your guys threw their weight behind this coup is enough to show that you supported them. And they got nothing out of it, lost land and got thrown under the bus. No wonder anyone with problems and needing assistance these days is coming to Russia, and not the U.S.


Last I checked, Ukraine is still...Ukraine. Not the former Russian state it once was. So while you openly cheer and celebrate open hostile actions on another nations' sovereign territory because 'they wanted it back' (just like the bonehead Reagan/Bush move - 'We want the Panama Canal back"...but don't stop you from cheering for your side (seems I couldn't if I tried) it simply show your support is thru-the-roof for support totalitarian rule. Hopefully you are living in the middle of Moscow whooping ot up with others in love with Pooty (or maybe you're on the job here at A.net working for him - sounds like it). But if you think for a minute this is the direction the world wants as you do...you've lost touch with all reality. I've yet to hear any person say 'I want my country to be more like Russia'...TTrump feels that way, many of us wish that he would and get over with.

tu204 wrote:
4) Sanctions - you missed my point.
In the long term Russia has turned every sanction thrown at us to Russia's benefit. Be it boosting agricultural production almost twofold, industrial production and economic instruments. Without these sanctions, it was comfortable I guess to import chicken from the U.S., apples from the E.U. and use Visa/Mastercard giving them a comission off of every transaction taking place in Russia. However your stupid actions got Russians to get off their asses and actually develop these industries.

So I don't know what you are smokin', but just these points show that either your guys are incompetent, our guys are brilliant, or your guys are actually our guys in disguise.
Hell, I don't know which one to chose. I think something between choice 1 and 2.



Oh they have have they? Then if that's the case, why on earth are they pulling out the stops on doing everything they can think of to eliminate them if they have turned them to their advantage??? Both explanations can't be true. Either Russia is trying vehemently to end them OR they aren't and using them to their advantage as you say.



BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:22 am

BN747 wrote:
Yup...with one BIG difference.
One side supports the notion of the citizens selecting their leaders and prefer the Rights people over the Rights of the Leader.
YOUR side prefers to defer all authority to complete police state with zero accountability.
BN747


There is no difference really. You are advocating that each nation has all rights to elect their own leaders. I am advocating the same, and in addition to that - each nation has also the right to determine how their leaders are to be elected, and what privileges and authority they have. How and when they make such decision - it’s also up to them, and nobody from outside should meddle with those decisions.

Yes, in NK may be police state now (from our point of view), but North Koreans themselves should be the ones who determine - are they happy with it or not, if to do anything about that, what to do and when to do it.
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:41 am

BN747 wrote:
I'm do not possess the knowledge of actual events of the Georgia (you'd be lucky to find 20 Americans who do out of 300 million)story, so I'll wait for someone (hopefully a European) will come along and provide us with a fair neutral summation of occurrences there. Your version is dripping in so much RED, Russia has import ink from China to keep you supplied. In other words - I don't believe a word you said above because I know for fact you know absolute zero about US Military objections, tactics, readiness nor mission prioritizing. Given that, I'll just say you have a very red view of events sans any room for any other considerations. Georgia, it just is no big deal, who knew?


I can tell you the version that’s recognized and acknowledged by everyone. There were Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia, based U.N. Security Council resolution. Saakashvili was the first to attack them, there were casualties among them. Russia then intruded into the situation, having forced Georgian troops out of S. Ossetia and Abkhazia, and a few days later dismantled Georgian military. Then, Russia acknowledged independence of these regions.

In this situation, Saakashvili was the aggressor, and this is recognized by everyone. The rest - is aftermath of defeat in aggression, which is totally up to the winner. Such are unwritten rules of international politics.
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:55 am

BN747 wrote:
Last I checked, Ukraine is still...Ukraine. Not the former Russian state it once was. So while you openly cheer and celebrate open hostile actions on another nations' sovereign territory because 'they wanted it back' (just like the bonehead Reagan/Bush move - 'We want the Panama Canal back"...but don't stop you from cheering for your side (seems I couldn't if I tried) it simply show your support is thru-the-roof for support totalitarian rule.


Ukraine is still Ukraine - a hopeless, full of problems piece of land that nobody wants or cares about, including its own citizens. It’s not that Russians wanted Crimea back, it’s that Crimeans on the poll expressed their wish to secede from Ukraine and join Russian Federation. They were accepted by Russia. That’s about it.
 
BN747
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:41 am

anrec80 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Yup...with one BIG difference.
One side supports the notion of the citizens selecting their leaders and prefer the Rights people over the Rights of the Leader.
YOUR side prefers to defer all authority to complete police state with zero accountability.
BN747


There is no difference really. You are advocating that each nation has all rights to elect their own leaders. I am advocating the same, and in addition to that - each nation has also the right to determine how their leaders are to be elected, and what privileges and authority they have. How and when they make such decision - it’s also up to them, and nobody from outside should meddle with those decisions.


Ummmm no we are not.

Selecting or electing a leader is a process, I pointedly state the belief of Rights of citizens (beyond casting votes) true representation and devotion to democratic rule as to what makes America stand vastly apart from Authoritative Dictatorships. You may advocate 'leadership selection...but you stop there. I profess support the basic Rights of man as expressed from the Magna Carta to the Bill Rights, the other guys hate that approach, they being the decision makers. Now if people truly want that type of leadership, great for them...but everyone knows people only accept those terms under 'force'. That's where er part.

anrec80 wrote:
Yes, in NK may be police state now (from our point of view), but North Koreans themselves should be the ones who determine - are they happy with it or not, if to do anything about that, what to do and when to do it.


NKoreans SHOULD have that choice (and they have no such thing - why do insist that they do? They clearly do not!

anrec80 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Last I checked, Ukraine is still...Ukraine. Not the former Russian state it once was. So while you openly cheer and celebrate open hostile actions on another nations' sovereign territory because 'they wanted it back' (just like the bonehead Reagan/Bush move - 'We want the Panama Canal back"...but don't stop you from cheering for your side (seems I couldn't if I tried) it simply show your support is thru-the-roof for support totalitarian rule.


Ukraine is still Ukraine - a hopeless, full of problems piece of land that nobody wants or cares about, including its own citizens. It’s not that Russians wanted Crimea back, it’s that Crimeans on the poll expressed their wish to secede from Ukraine and join Russian Federation. They were accepted by Russia. That’s about it.


Here you are saying Ukraine is a place no one gives a crap about and tu204 is beating chest about Russia's BIG victory in Georgia - to which I say most Americans know something about Ukraine (even if it's just the name) vs those aware of tu204's Georgia boast.

Ukraine may be crud land to you but it certainly isn't to Russia.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:18 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
No indeed. In Russia, it is the other way around. Politicians tell companies what to do and how much is skimmed off the top for the oligarchies. In that way, Russia isn't an oligarchy, thanks for correcting me. Putin controls everything and only needs to listen a bit to the oligarchs around him.


In Russia it’s the same way as it’s in most other countries, including USA and Germany. In Russia, there certainly is large business, just as in Europe or USA. Yes, government listens to the needs and interests of large businesses, just as any other government does. Yes, in Russia as well large businesses have to listen to state’s decrees, just as in USA and Europe - follow sanctions, executive orders, regulations, pay taxes, etc.

For example, Germany is advocating Nord Stream - because its major employers and businesses need this cheap and abundant pipeline gas right next to them. Yes, most of other EU is against this project, sure - Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, Baltic states. But the German Chancellor Merkel (or her successors for this reason) need people to be employed, and taxes to be flowing in, whether someone likes it or not. Hence they are like snakes on a frying pan - trying to please Americans who want to push their LNG, Eurocomission with Poland and Baltic states in it by saying “this is not EU jurisdiction and commercial project”, Ukraine with its influence by promising some transit, and yet progressing with laying pipes for this mainline.


Whataboutism, Russia isn't the same as Germany or the US. Russia is plagued with corruption, and in this case corruption from the very top.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:37 am

BN747 wrote:
NKoreans SHOULD have that choice (and they have no such thing - why do insist that they do? They clearly do not!


Perhaps I should put "North Korean Nation".
We think they should - but again, this matter is totally up to North Korean nation. Nobody else.

BN747 wrote:
Here you are saying Ukraine is a place no one gives a crap about and tu204 is beating chest about Russia's BIG victory in Georgia - to which I say most Americans know something about Ukraine (even if it's just the name) vs those aware of tu204's Georgia boast.

Ukraine may be crud land to you but it certainly isn't to Russia.

BN747


For now - maybe not quite yet, but where else does it have to go? Nowhere. It's unlikely that this territory will get out of this mess without anyone's help. And the only place where this help can come from is Russia - and this country is the most interested in stability along their borders. I think Russia will at some point of time have to deal with those problems there. The Maidan and Western orientation slowly but surely are leading to collapse of its statehood, nothing else.
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:39 am

Dutchy wrote:
Whataboutism, Russia isn't the same as Germany or the US. Russia is plagued with corruption, and in this case corruption from the very top.


Not really. Somewhere they call certain things "corruption" and say "it's illegal", somewhere they call it "lobbying" and say "it's legal". That's about it.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:00 am

anrec80 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
NKoreans SHOULD have that choice (and they have no such thing - why do insist that they do? They clearly do not!


Perhaps I should put "North Korean Nation".
We think they should - but again, this matter is totally up to North Korean nation. Nobody else.

Viewpoints like these really question your intellectual honesty and belittle your other points. I'm really not exactly sure what you're arguing, I mean I guess the most important opinions on North Korean governance are from North Koreans... hopefully we can agree there.

But um, I get we are coming from different angles of things, but seriously? North Korea? You don't see any sort of oppression and the blocking of citizens to have a fair say in their government? I'm sure if you could honestly poll North Koreans and wave a magic wand, their version of North Korea would be much different than the (universally acknowledged) mess we see today.

What exactly is your point? I'm hearing a bunch of "it's up to the North Koreans and we aren't North Koreans lalalalalala all is fair lalalalalala nothing to see here"
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 7394
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Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:37 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Whataboutism, Russia isn't the same as Germany or the US. Russia is plagued with corruption, and in this case corruption from the very top.


Not really. Somewhere they call certain things "corruption" and say "it's illegal", somewhere they call it "lobbying" and say "it's legal". That's about it.


Yes really:
Germany: 12th
US: 16th
Russia: 135th

https://www.transparency.org/

You again are defending an indefensible position. Russia is one of the most corrupt countries, and Germany and the US one of the least, that is the reality. And what you are doing is classic whataboutism, a classic propaganda tool.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
Posts: 1422
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:54 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Viewpoints like these really question your intellectual honesty and belittle your other points. I'm really not exactly sure what you're arguing, I mean I guess the most important opinions on North Korean governance are from North Koreans... hopefully we can agree there.

But um, I get we are coming from different angles of things, but seriously? North Korea? You don't see any sort of oppression and the blocking of citizens to have a fair say in their government? I'm sure if you could honestly poll North Koreans and wave a magic wand, their version of North Korea would be much different than the (universally acknowledged) mess we see today.

What exactly is your point? I'm hearing a bunch of "it's up to the North Koreans and we aren't North Koreans lalalalalala all is fair lalalalalala nothing to see here"


I'll try to rephrase and simplify my point. In my view - nobody from outside of North Korea should tell North Koreans how to live and how to run their state. That includes criticism of what's wrong there, what should be changed - things like "dictatorship", "authoritarian rule", "oppressive regime" and the likes. North Koreans should figure all that out themselves. Nothing else. I don't tend to criticize their leadership and their government for this very reason.

There just are a few people here who still like to "democratize" other countries, and nothing good ever comes out of that.
 
salttee
Posts: 3024
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:37 am

anrec80 wrote:
nobody from outside of North Korea should tell North Koreans how to live and how to run their state.

You might have a point if not for the fact that NK has been a belligerent state from it's inception and is currently collecting nuclear weapons and building ICBMs - and has frequently threatened to use them. It's almost as if you're trying to pretend that NK is not NK.
 
BN747
Posts: 5710
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:28 pm

anrec80 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Viewpoints like these really question your intellectual honesty and belittle your other points. I'm really not exactly sure what you're arguing, I mean I guess the most important opinions on North Korean governance are from North Koreans... hopefully we can agree there.

But um, I get we are coming from different angles of things, but seriously? North Korea? You don't see any sort of oppression and the blocking of citizens to have a fair say in their government? I'm sure if you could honestly poll North Koreans and wave a magic wand, their version of North Korea would be much different than the (universally acknowledged) mess we see today.

What exactly is your point? I'm hearing a bunch of "it's up to the North Koreans and we aren't North Koreans lalalalalala all is fair lalalalalala nothing to see here"


I'll try to rephrase and simplify my point. In my view - nobody from outside of North Korea should tell North Koreans how to live and how to run their state. That includes criticism of what's wrong there, what should be changed - things like "dictatorship", "authoritarian rule", "oppressive regime" and the likes. North Koreans should figure all that out themselves. Nothing else. I don't tend to criticize their leadership and their government for this very reason.

There just are a few people here who still like to "democratize" other countries, and nothing good ever comes out of that.


You rephrased it and it’s even more of a disaster.

How the hell can the North Koreans decide who to rule/govern them when that decision is NOT actually up to them at all?

The thing that makes us is human... is called ‘Humanity’. Humanity, worldwide has taken a unified stand against inhumanity everywhere. North Korea is atop that list of such nations.

Now you go ahead continue publicly telling people (or who ever listens to you) that ‘what goes on in North Korea is no one’s concern- if they look at you as though you have a third eye.....welllll..

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1097
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Putin Wants To Be President For Life

Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:43 pm

scbriml wrote:
Berevoff wrote:
If the Russians could stop drinking themselves to death for one second they'd see the rug is being pulled out from under them. They've been through this before though and deep down many want a strong man at the top. It really is part of their society to have a generational figurehead.


They say people get the politicians they deserve.
What did I do to deserve this?

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