mham001
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Der Spiegel - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:24 pm

Der Spiegal announced last week that their prize winning journalist Claas Relotius (CNN Journalist of the Year), has been making up stories for years. Much of it anti-American by blatantly injecting Fake News to (mis)portray certain segments of America as racist and xenophobic. Now it is learned he was collecting money for Fake Syrians. Beyond the criminal aspects of that, The US Ambassador has taken it a step farther by coining it as "Institutional Bias" at Der Spiegal. I believe he is wrong about that. I lived in Europe for years and have long felt the (almost) entire media is biased liberal and very anti-American - even the one quoted below. This is often reflected in the views regarding the US I read here from Europe, based on what they have read in their media.

" One of the Relotius stories at issue centred on the US-Mexican border. Der Spiegel said its investigation revealed that he had fabricated information about seeing a hand-painted sign in a town in Minnesota that read: "Mexicans Keep Out."

False information appeared in other stories including one about inmates at the US military prison at Guantanamo Bay and another about the US NFL quarterback Colin Kaepernick.
" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46666389 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46666389

Image

Claas has certainly provided us with proof of "Lügenpresse". All you you Europeans who have been harping about the supposed "negative" impact of Fox News on Americans need to do some real soul-searching. I expect this will be just the tip of the iceberg - if European journalists are really interested in saving whatever credibility they have left.

Below is an article about how much of that story was blatantly false...https://medium.com/@micheleanderson/der ... 2f3e0e01a7
Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Typo fixed
 
tommy1808
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:47 pm

Right Mr. You-are-not-american-stay-out-of-this-discussion....... i guess your rules don't apply to yourself.

The difference between the US subsidy of Russia Today and the Spiegel? The latter found out the guy is a fraud themselves and made it public themselves.

When did fox news fire the last reporter for lying?

They are also ridiculous commited to the transatlantic relationship to the point where the Spiegel defended the use of torture by the US.

But nice making the polar opposite of Fox news known to the airliners.net audience and come back when Fox and Breitbart start to even pretend to care.

Best regards
Thomas
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Dutchy
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:49 pm

mham001 wrote:
I lived in Europe for years and have long felt the (almost) entire media is biased liberal and very anti-American - even the one quoted below. This is often reflected in the views regarding the US I read here from Europe, based on what they have read in their media.


What views are very anti-American? The majority rejects Trump, but that is not anti-American, just anti-Trump.

mham001 wrote:
Claas has certainly provided us with proof of "Lügenpresse". All you you Europeans who have been harping about the supposed "negative" impact of Fox News on Americans need to do some real soul-searching. I expect this will be just the tip of the iceberg - if European journalists are really interested in saving whatever credibility they have left.


He has been caught and is being dealt with. Don't take one incident to make it about all the press. Just a bad apple. Undoubtedly there are more, so checking stories is of the utmost importance.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
mham001
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:50 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Right Mr. You-are-not-american-stay-out-of-this-discussion....... i guess your rules don't apply to yourself.


I think you are missing a very important aspect of this thread - his target was me.

Dutchy wrote:
mham001 wrote:
I lived in Europe for years and have long felt the (almost) entire media is biased liberal and very anti-American - even the one quoted below. This is often reflected in the views regarding the US I read here from Europe, based on what they have read in their media.


What views are very anti-American? The majority rejects Trump, but that is not anti-American, just anti-Trump.


It is not only about the facts in a report, it is also about what gets reported and how it is reported. Are the headlines constantly negative one-side and positive the other-side? One example I recall in this forum was the VW diesel scandal. Most Europeans here were strongly under the impression that Europe had tougher emission controls and their skies were cleaner than the filthy Americans in their gas-guzzling SUVs. Turns out, neither were true. The point of that is that is the impression they had, based on their press. Yes, this is indeed 'anti-American'.
Last edited by mham001 on Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:53 pm

mham001 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Right Mr. You-are-not-american-stay-out-of-this-discussion....... i guess your rules don't apply to yourself.


I think you are missing a very important aspect of this thread - his target was me.


You personally, oh dear.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
mham001
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
mham001 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Right Mr. You-are-not-american-stay-out-of-this-discussion....... i guess your rules don't apply to yourself.


I think you are missing a very important aspect of this thread - his target was me.


You personally, oh dear.


Well yes. As a quasi "Trump supporter", I am routinely labelled a racist in this forum. Happened not 1 hour ago in the Paul Ryan thread. This happens daily to anybody who admits "supporting" Trump. Mr Relotius and Der Spiegal has admitted it.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:04 pm

mham001 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Right Mr. You-are-not-american-stay-out-of-this-discussion....... i guess your rules don't apply to yourself.


I think you are missing a very important aspect of this thread - his target was me.


Cry me a river. Everyone on this planet is a target for Trump, unless you are a dictator of course, and has to live with the consequences of US policies.

And if that held any water, you'd have to applause the Spiegel for cleaning house, and demand that Fox and Breitbart raise to the same standard.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:05 pm

Der Spiegel is definitely left leaning and in general I agree that European media is often overly (artificially) critical of the US, but that doesn't mean that the continent doesn't have credible journalists. If you are willing to pay Germany, Switzerland and the UK for example (e.g. FAZ, NZZ, FT or the Economist) offer quality journalism. As a matter of fact I don't know a US newspaper that is as good as those mentioned.

If you don't want to pay and prefer reading those free online services like the BBC etc. or watch TV you generally get the usual garbage just like all around the world.
 
mham001
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:15 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
mham001 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Right Mr. You-are-not-american-stay-out-of-this-discussion....... i guess your rules don't apply to yourself.


I think you are missing a very important aspect of this thread - his target was me.


Cry me a river. Everyone on this planet is a target for Trump, unless you are a dictator of course, and has to live with the consequences of US policies.

And if that held any water, you'd have to applause the Spiegel for cleaning house, and demand that Fox and Breitbart raise to the same standard.

Best regards
Thomas


ahem. Mr Relotius was writing Fake News long before Trump.

What is the excuse now?



“Claas Relotius, a reporter and editor, falsified his articles on a grand scale and even invented characters, deceiving both readers and his colleagues,” German media outlet Der Spiegel said in a statement. “This has been uncovered as a result of tips, internal research and, ultimately, a comprehensive confession by the editor himself.”

Der Spiegel also stated that “Claas Relotius committed his deception intentionally, methodically and with criminal intent. For example, he included individuals in his stories who he had never met or spoken to, telling their stories or quoting them. Instead, he would reveal, he based the depictions on other media or video recordings. By doing so, he created composite characters of people who actually did exist but whose stories Relotius had fabricated. He also made up dialogue and quotes … Relotius first wrote for DER SPIEGEL as a freelancer, but he was employed as an editor for the past year and a half. Since 2011, just under 60 of his articles were published in DER SPIEGEL magazine or on SPIEGEL ONLINE. By his own admission, there are at least 14 articles in question that are at least in part fabrications."
https://www.aim.org/aim-column/cnn-jour ... reporting/
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:51 pm

mham001 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
mham001 wrote:

I think you are missing a very important aspect of this thread - his target was me.


You personally, oh dear.


Well yes. As a quasi "Trump supporter", I am routinely labelled a racist in this forum. Happened not 1 hour ago in the Paul Ryan thread. This happens daily to anybody who admits "supporting" Trump. Mr Relotius and Der Spiegal has admitted it.


Don't know if that is true. I would say that personal attacks are not ok, in any form. You might have posted a racist comment, but that doesn't make you a racist. I would say, if you are a Trump supporter, you support someone with a very dubious past - racism included - very dubious present and someone whom has made it a daily task to make personal attacks. If you support someone like this, you might want to get a ticker skin.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:59 pm

mham001 wrote:
It is not only about the facts in a report, it is also about what gets reported and how it is reported. Are the headlines constantly negative one-side and positive the other-side? One example I recall in this forum was the VW diesel scandal. Most Europeans here were strongly under the impression that Europe had tougher emission controls and their skies were cleaner than the filthy Americans in their gas-guzzling SUVs. Turns out, neither were true. The point of that is that is the impression they had, based on their press. Yes, this is indeed 'anti-American'.


VW diesel scandal was widely condemned by Europeans. American cars are bigger and are gas-guzzlers compared to average European cars, that is a fact. European taxes on fossil fuels are higher than in the US, so that helps. The EU does have tougher emission laws, the problem was that the car industry found an illegal way to pass those.
The skies is another matter indeed. We need some cleaning up to do, but so do you.

These are not anti-American things, not citing America as a heaven on earth, doesn't mean it is anti-American. There are plenty of things to be very critical of America as there are plenty of things to be very critical of the EU.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
mham001
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:

VW diesel scandal was widely condemned by Europeans. American cars are bigger and are gas-guzzlers compared to average European cars, that is a fact. European taxes on fossil fuels are higher than in the US, so that helps. The EU does have tougher emission laws, the problem was that the car industry found an illegal way to pass those.
The skies is another matter indeed. We need some cleaning up to do, but so do you.

These are not anti-American things, not citing America as a heaven on earth, doesn't mean it is anti-American. There are plenty of things to be very critical of America as there are plenty of things to be very critical of the EU.


You just made my point. you did NOT have tougher emission regulations, where did you get that impression? Your media? I am not going back to fight about that, it was proven at the time. The thread is probably still around. And your cities have dirtier air, in general. But Europeans have been led to believe that everything is unicorn farts compared to the filthy US.
 
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:12 pm

Journalism in general is undergoing a period of deep and horrifying crisis. So many strong journalistic cultures within the media (at least in the US) have been subverted by corrupt, power-loving villains.

There used to be at least a veneer of professionalism, fair context etc in journalism. It has descended into pure, unmitigated advocacy. This has been a transition from reader-frendly information to pure propaganda. We should be paid (a lot!) to read the trash that comes out.

Sometimes I feel that I, somebody with no particular talent or qualifications, should teach a journalism class that should be attended by the most prominent journalists in the USA. I have the feeling most of them would fail my class. I genuinely believe I know more about journalism than they do. And I think many average people do too.

You can start a capable, fair and energetic journalist. Over time, your mind and principles become totally poisoned by vanity and money. You wake up one day obsessed with protecting your friends and your masters, a tiny minority of the population you serve. You no longer are fascinated by the truth of the human condition, you no longer care about what is right and wrong. Or, maybe you arrive on the scene without any skills, you are this year's new dandy or a starlet, or a humblebragging hipster nihilist, who would normally never be considered a journalist in the real world. Where have the real journalists gone?

Without real journalism, I say the country fails.
Last edited by Flighty on Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:16 pm

mham001 wrote:
You just made my point. you did NOT have tougher emission regulations, where did you get that impression? Your media? I am not going back to fight about that, it was proven at the time. The thread is probably still around. And your cities have dirtier air, in general. But Europeans have been led to believe that everything is unicorn farts compared to the filthy US.


I am not going to debate that with you either. I did not get the impression from the media, but from comparing between the US and EU, cold hard numbers.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
mham001
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:12 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Don't know if that is true. I would say that personal attacks are not ok, in any form. You might have posted a racist comment, but that doesn't make you a racist. I would say, if you are a Trump supporter, you support someone with a very dubious past - racism included - very dubious present and someone whom has made it a daily task to make personal attacks. If you support someone like this, you might want to get a ticker skin.


Yes it's true, its commonly overlooked but I'll get banned for talking about it. Just this morning... "Trump supporters don't hate immigration, they're afraid of Brown people." One of the milder ones but a definition of a racist.

So yes, when the German reporter comes to my country and makes up fake characters to tell fake stories to portray to people like you that "Trump supporters" are racists, he is targeting me. Period.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:29 pm

mham001 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Don't know if that is true. I would say that personal attacks are not ok, in any form. You might have posted a racist comment, but that doesn't make you a racist. I would say, if you are a Trump supporter, you support someone with a very dubious past - racism included - very dubious present and someone whom has made it a daily task to make personal attacks. If you support someone like this, you might want to get a ticker skin.


Yes it's true, its commonly overlooked but I'll get banned for talking about it. Just this morning... "Trump supporters don't hate immigration, they're afraid of Brown people." One of the milder ones but a definition of a racist.

So yes, when the German reporter comes to my country and makes up fake characters to tell fake stories to portray to people like you that "Trump supporters" are racists, he is targeting me. Period.


You take it way to personal, my American friend.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
seb146
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:54 pm

If I am reading this correctly, ONE reporter made stuff up repeatedly. That does not excuse the editorial board for not fact checking. However, taking ONE reporter and saying "EVERYONE DOES IT!!!" is wrong. It does NOT excuse those infotainment outlets who disguise themselves as news. Facts have a liberal bias.

There are Americans who feel comfortable being outright racist because their president said they could or some BS excuse. And the majority of Americans who do not want that are just supposed to shut up and take it and let them because Republicans and reasons and Fox. Racism is much more in-your-face now than 10 years ago. What is wrong with pointing that out? Why is that offensive?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:53 am

mham001 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
mham001 wrote:

I think you are missing a very important aspect of this thread - his target was me.


Cry me a river. Everyone on this planet is a target for Trump, unless you are a dictator of course, and has to live with the consequences of US policies.

And if that held any water, you'd have to applause the Spiegel for cleaning house, and demand that Fox and Breitbart raise to the same standard.

Best regards
Thomas


ahem. Mr Relotius was writing Fake News long before Trump.

What is the excuse now?


So? As long you can not proof they knew it was fake at the time that is irrelevant.
Fox news on the other hand.... many 10 year old can figure out that they lie all the time.

But please, keep up lauding how gleichgeschalted the Media you consume is.....

Best regards
Thomas
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tommy1808
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:58 am

seb146 wrote:
If I am reading this correctly, ONE reporter made stuff up repeatedly. That does not excuse the editorial board for not fact checking.


Problem for them... he didn't make up extraordinary stories, he made up stuff largely in line with other reporting. It is more fake article writing than fake news.
That is why the ambassador and right wing media jump on it, because they can paint truth as fake news, because one reporter made up faked stories about it.
Fake reporters with real fake stores only survive at fake news media.

Best regards
Thomas
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tommy1808
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:19 am

Dutchy wrote:
mham001 wrote:
You just made my point. you did NOT have tougher emission regulations, where did you get that impression? Your media? I am not going back to fight about that, it was proven at the time. The thread is probably still around. And your cities have dirtier air, in general. But Europeans have been led to believe that everything is unicorn farts compared to the filthy US.


I am not going to debate that with you either. I did not get the impression from the media, but from comparing between the US and EU, cold hard numbers.


You are both wrong. US standards are somewhat stricter on PM and NOx, EU standards are somewhat stricter on CO2 and quite a bit stricter on CO.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/e ... L_STU(2016)587331_EN.pdf

It's a targeting conflict. If you want to bring CO2 down, you get more NOx and PM. An fuel efficient, direct injecting gasoline engine comes with quite the particulate matter problem attached to it, that a less efficient engine wouldn't have.

Both sets of standards probably require the same amount of tech to reach.

Interesting those that the US uses emission standards as trade barrier, while the EU does not.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:00 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
mham001 wrote:
You just made my point. you did NOT have tougher emission regulations, where did you get that impression? Your media? I am not going back to fight about that, it was proven at the time. The thread is probably still around. And your cities have dirtier air, in general. But Europeans have been led to believe that everything is unicorn farts compared to the filthy US.


I am not going to debate that with you either. I did not get the impression from the media, but from comparing between the US and EU, cold hard numbers.


You are both wrong. US standards are somewhat stricter on PM and NOx, EU standards are somewhat stricter on CO2 and quite a bit stricter on CO.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/e ... L_STU(2016)587331_EN.pdf

It's a targeting conflict. If you want to bring CO2 down, you get more NOx and PM. An fuel efficient, direct injecting gasoline engine comes with quite the particulate matter problem attached to it, that a less efficient engine wouldn't have.

Both sets of standards probably require the same amount of tech to reach.

Interesting those that the US uses emission standards as trade barrier, while the EU does not.

Best regards
Thomas


It doesn't matter, we need to say goodbye to fossil fuel powered cars and move to alternative fuels. Fossil fuel powered cars are at the end of their innovation.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:41 am

mham001 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Don't know if that is true. I would say that personal attacks are not ok, in any form. You might have posted a racist comment, but that doesn't make you a racist. I would say, if you are a Trump supporter, you support someone with a very dubious past - racism included - very dubious present and someone whom has made it a daily task to make personal attacks. If you support someone like this, you might want to get a ticker skin.


Yes it's true, its commonly overlooked but I'll get banned for talking about it. Just this morning... "Trump supporters don't hate immigration, they're afraid of Brown people." One of the milder ones but a definition of a racist.

So yes, when the German reporter comes to my country and makes up fake characters to tell fake stories to portray to people like you that "Trump supporters" are racists, he is targeting me. Period.


Rejoice, as your tax dollars have been paying for the security of the American hating country for decades. Support Trump to change this.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:06 am

seahawk wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Don't know if that is true. I would say that personal attacks are not ok, in any form. You might have posted a racist comment, but that doesn't make you a racist. I would say, if you are a Trump supporter, you support someone with a very dubious past - racism included - very dubious present and someone whom has made it a daily task to make personal attacks. If you support someone like this, you might want to get a ticker skin.


Yes it's true, its commonly overlooked but I'll get banned for talking about it. Just this morning... "Trump supporters don't hate immigration, they're afraid of Brown people." One of the milder ones but a definition of a racist.

So yes, when the German reporter comes to my country and makes up fake characters to tell fake stories to portray to people like you that "Trump supporters" are racists, he is targeting me. Period.


Rejoice, as your tax dollars have been paying for the security of the American hating country for decades. Support Trump to change this.


Bad example as Germany reimbursed its allies for forces stationed here until the cold war was over and at a lower level since.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
ltbewr
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:52 am

We have seen a number of journalists who seeking personal glory, for money or pressure from their publisher/employer write stores where information was not properly verified. had outright lies, inaccuracies or reflected a personal political bias of the writer and/or publisher. Political or social bias is common in newspapers, magazines, cable news and internet news sites often favor a political view or party and publish to it. The bias issue isn't just of the 'left', but on the 'right' like with Fox News.

For newspapers and magazines, it has become financially much worse to do or support proper journalism or publish sensational themed articles as ad revenues have declined and need to get attention of readers as the internet as cable news and the internet can beat them by hours or a day. Then there is the deliberate ignoring of certain areas of news, like with the conflicts of Israel and the Palestinians where due to financial and other pressures, particularly in the USA, the stories are almost pro Israel and anti-Palestinian. This has become much worse in recent years.

There is no doubt a raging debate of the news coverage of the President Trump being biased in his favor or in vile hate for him. It may be impossible to completely remove bias, but something has to be recognized as trust in the news media declines and affects voters.
 
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:36 am

I think it all started when the media moved away from reporting factual, dry news to endless "opinion pieces" that are often (unintentionally) disguised as "real news".
Especially in the US where "eyeballs = money". And typically, the larger the hype the more eyeballs, whether the reported piece is true nor not.

To come back to Claas Relotius, I think he should give back all those prizes he won.
 
WIederling
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:48 am

Dieuwer wrote:
To come back to Claas Relotius, I think he should give back all those prizes he won.

He did. already.

Doesn't fabricating news lead back to Hearst and the media moguls following him?
Next major step was embedding journalists. That brought quite the change in pictures.
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JJJ
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:28 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
mham001 wrote:
You just made my point. you did NOT have tougher emission regulations, where did you get that impression? Your media? I am not going back to fight about that, it was proven at the time. The thread is probably still around. And your cities have dirtier air, in general. But Europeans have been led to believe that everything is unicorn farts compared to the filthy US.


I am not going to debate that with you either. I did not get the impression from the media, but from comparing between the US and EU, cold hard numbers.


You are both wrong. US standards are somewhat stricter on PM and NOx, EU standards are somewhat stricter on CO2 and quite a bit stricter on CO.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/e ... L_STU(2016)587331_EN.pdf


Not even that. US regulations target PM mass, which mean GDI engines get away with releasing a huge amount of the smallest particles (which are the worse from a health PoV).

That's why GDI engines in the EU and China are starting to include particle filters while the US won't.

https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/gasoline ... ilters.php
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:49 pm

JJJ wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

I am not going to debate that with you either. I did not get the impression from the media, but from comparing between the US and EU, cold hard numbers.


You are both wrong. US standards are somewhat stricter on PM and NOx, EU standards are somewhat stricter on CO2 and quite a bit stricter on CO.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/e ... L_STU(2016)587331_EN.pdf


Not even that. US regulations target PM mass, which mean GDI engines get away with releasing a huge amount of the smallest particles (which are the worse from a health PoV).

That's why GDI engines in the EU and China are starting to include particle filters while the US won't.

https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/gasoline ... ilters.php


Doesn't matter what they are now, we need to reduce as quickly as possible, first with incentives for electric cars, then making regulations stricter and sticker and eventually move to zero. I saw that Porsche is going to bring out a plug-inn hybrate and a full electric model, they know where the world is going to be in a few years.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:31 pm

Dutchy wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Don't know if that is true. I would say that personal attacks are not ok, in any form. You might have posted a racist comment, but that doesn't make you a racist. I would say, if you are a Trump supporter, you support someone with a very dubious past - racism included - very dubious present and someone whom has made it a daily task to make personal attacks. If you support someone like this, you might want to get a ticker skin.


Yes it's true, its commonly overlooked but I'll get banned for talking about it. Just this morning... "Trump supporters don't hate immigration, they're afraid of Brown people." One of the milder ones but a definition of a racist.

So yes, when the German reporter comes to my country and makes up fake characters to tell fake stories to portray to people like you that "Trump supporters" are racists, he is targeting me. Period.


You take it way to personal, my American friend.


In my experience, Trump supporters are nothing if not perpetual victims. They take that cue from Trump himself who is magically a ‘take no prisoners” strong man and poorly treated victim at the same time.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 16977
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:53 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Right Mr. You-are-not-american-stay-out-of-this-discussion....... i guess your rules don't apply to yourself.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :rotfl: Of course not. Accountability for you, not for me, Old Testament for you New Testament for me, truth for you lies for me. No vacation for you on the government dime while I go golfing for the 80th time this year. As always.

mham001 wrote:
Just this morning... "Trump supporters don't hate immigration, they're afraid of Brown people." One of the milder ones but a definition of a racist.

That's 100% true. Trump supporters are the definition of racist, both from the way they vote and their support for things the administration does and says on a daily basis. That's not a personal attack--that's cawlin' it wut it iz.

2122M wrote:
Trump supporters are nothing if not perpetual victims. They take that cue from Trump himself who is magically a ‘take no prisoners” strong man and poorly treated victim at the same time.

...and has been a racist for decades going back to "no vacancies for blacks" in his buildings in the 70s

mham001 wrote:
So yes, when the German reporter comes to my country and makes up fake characters to tell fake stories

Do you hold your President to the same standard? Where is that 400lb guy in New Jersey? John Barron? John Miller? Any of the endless people Trump has claimed that support whatever nonsense he's slurring out that moment? Trump has more made up characters than the whole Harry Potter series.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Kilopond
Posts: 374
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:32 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
To come back to Claas Relotius, I think he should give back all those prizes he won.

He did. already.

Doesn't fabricating news lead back to Hearst and the media moguls following him?
Next major step was embedding journalists. That brought quite the change in pictures.


Well, bourgeois democracy is based on two pillars: lies and bribes for her inhabitants. The vast majority feels quite comfortable with this Situation.
 
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Berevoff
Posts: 203
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:38 am

I think he should vacation in Saudi Arabia and take some time to distance himself from all this turmoil. It'll all blow over.
 
jcancel
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:40 am

I noticed Der Spiegel translates articles into English but apparently Relotius's weren't. If they were, he would have been caught sooner (in regards to US articles).

In the future Der Spiegel articles about the US should be translated into English.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10098
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:42 am

jcancel wrote:
I noticed Der Spiegel translates articles into English but apparently Relotius's weren't.


They only do so for very few articles....

If they were, he would have been caught sooner (in regards to US articles).


Two US readers actually did notice it....

In the future Der Spiegel articles about the US should be translated into English.


You'll pay for it?

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
jcancel
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:33 am

AFAiK they translate quite a few, usually about international politics. I don't expect everything to be translated, but they're not a small regional newspaper. Relotius was the star, winning awards. They could have prioritized his articles for translation.

The Americans who did notice were the Minnesota residents, right? They looked around for the article and found it since they knew it was written about their hometown, but since it was only in German it took some time for them to verify what was said about their town (they wondered if Gtranslate was faulty until the professional translation came out). Having a professional English translation right then and there increases exposure and allows for more scrutiny.

IMO the question on whether I would pay doesn't reflect the fact they gain from the translation (I typically only pay for my hometown paper and my family gets national US ones). Penny wise means pound foolish: not getting the translations means the damage from Relotius is greater.

tommy1808 wrote:
jcancel wrote:
I noticed Der Spiegel translates articles into English but apparently Relotius's weren't.


They only do so for very few articles....

If they were, he would have been caught sooner (in regards to US articles).


Two US readers actually did notice it....

In the future Der Spiegel articles about the US should be translated into English.


You'll pay for it?

Best regards
Thomas
 
WIederling
Posts: 7999
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:21 am

tommy1808 wrote:
jcancel wrote:
I noticed Der Spiegel translates articles into English but apparently Relotius's weren't.


They only do so for very few articles....

Afaik this is slightly more complex.

you have the print version of "Der Spiegel" and you have the online version.
They do not have the same content. Quite a bit of overlap though.

The majority of "Spiegel Online" ( aka SpOn ) articles are in German.
Then there is "Spiegel English" http://www.spiegel.de/international/
They have some bespoke articles that often show a different (political) view than
the German site.
Another set is derived from translating the German side of things.
I've never seen "transpirations" from EN to DE. doesn't say there are none, but ..

These days Google translate is rather good enough for access to foreign language writings.
( good entertainment, educational. Go over the language leaves of a Wikipedia topic.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
jcancel
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:30 am

I meant the articles translated from German to English; Relotius's articles could have been in this portfolio.

WIederling wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
jcancel wrote:
I
These days Google translate is rather good enough for access to foreign language writings.
( good entertainment, educational. Go over the language leaves of a Wikipedia topic.)


While this is true, it's not sufficient. Google translate results don't show up in search results, and for many Americans (and other nationalities) foreign papers in foreign languages are out of sight out of mind.

A German staying in Tokyo told me that in Germany many newspapers from around the world are easily available on the streets of major cities there, and that kind of exposure drops down to the common man.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 7888
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:35 am

jcancel wrote:
I meant the articles translated from German to English; Relotius's articles could have been in this portfolio.

WIederling wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:


While this is true, it's not sufficient. Google translate results don't show up in search results, and for many Americans (and other nationalities) foreign papers in foreign languages are out of sight out of mind.

A German staying in Tokyo told me that in Germany many newspapers from around the world are easily available on the streets of major cities there, and that kind of exposure drops down to the common man.



Why do you want to read in a foreign paper about your country?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
Posts: 7999
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:43 am

jcancel wrote:
I meant the articles translated from German to English; Relotius's articles could have been in this portfolio.

WIederling wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:


While this is true, it's not sufficient. Google translate results don't show up in search results, and for many Americans (and other nationalities) foreign papers in foreign languages are out of sight out of mind.

A German staying in Tokyo told me that in Germany many newspapers from around the world are easily available on the streets of major cities there, and that kind of exposure drops down to the common man.

Bookstores at railroad stations tend to have a wide range of national and international print media around.

You can coopt google by first translating your search term. :-)
Or you assemble your search in a language neutral way. places, names, ...
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
Posts: 7999
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:48 am

Dutchy wrote:
Why do you want to read in a foreign paper about your country?


think. you'll get there :-)

Access to different views? Understanding why some posters seem to exist in a different timeline?
Murphy is an optimist
 
jcancel
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:53 am

Dutchy wrote:
Why do you want to read in a foreign paper about your country?


I do enjoy it when Der Spiegel, Le Monde, El Pais, erc have English articles about the US as they bring further perspectives and information that may not be in the domestic press.

Also as seen from Fergus Falls didn't exactly like it when they learned fabricated stuff was written about them. Having translated articles aids accountability.
 
jcancel
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:57 am

I'm not as aware about say UK bookstores, but in many other countries the situations aren't the same.

American bookstores often have only stuff in English (with few exceptions). Americans tend not to utilize railways at all, and many English speakers don't consider looking at the foreign language newspapers that are found at bus stops, etc. A lot of them don't even consider translating their own search terms.

This meant those Americans couldn't fact check the Relotius story about the woman who goes on the bus to execution sites. They didn't know it existed.

WIederling wrote:
Bookstores at railroad stations tend to have a wide range of national and international print media around.

You can coopt google by first translating your search term. :-)
Or you assemble your search in a language neutral way. places, names, ...
 
WIederling
Posts: 7999
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Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:49 am

jcancel wrote:
Americans tend not to utilize railways at all, and many English speakers don't consider looking at the foreign language newspapers that are found at bus stops, etc.


Lets replace railway station with the American equivalent "airport" or Highway Service Areas.
What is available there?

Essentially the pronounced lack of interest in things beyond the borders ( except for hand fed conjured up information )
turns the US population into a willingly led herd.
Murphy is an optimist
 
jcancel
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:28 pm

Airport bookstores are even more limited than regular big box ones; they might have some best sellers and some magazines but that's it.

I've been to many travel centers on interstate highways and that's usually just a convenience store with gasoline. The state-run welcome centers have restrooms, soda machines, coffee, and tourist brochures. On the interstates it's rare to find comprehensive/foreign bookstores. For that you have to go to major cities and be aware of them in advance.

The reality is that most Americans live in a mostly monolingual country (outside of ethnic neighborhoods in major metropolitan areas and some select rural regions) that has relative similarities in language. It's different from the EU which has more linguistic diversity.

This isolation does mean Americans are less informed about the world around them, but it also means Der Spiegel needs to accept this reality and make its top, prize-winning stories about the U.S. accessible to them so theres oversight. These Americans are aware of details in their own country that Europeans aren't, so they can clarify things. It's why the New York Times should be praised for having translations of articles in Spanish and Chinese, and the Wall Street Journal has articles in Japanese.

WIederling wrote:
jcancel wrote:
Americans tend not to utilize railways at all, and many English speakers don't consider looking at the foreign language newspapers that are found at bus stops, etc.


Lets replace railway station with the American equivalent "airport" or Highway Service Areas.
What is available there?

Essentially the pronounced lack of interest in things beyond the borders ( except for hand fed conjured up information )
turns the US population into a willingly led herd.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3647
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:57 pm

jcancel wrote:
but it also means Der Spiegel needs to accept this reality and make its top, prize-winning stories about the U.S. accessible to them so theres oversight. These Americans are aware of details in their own country that Europeans aren't, so they can clarify things. It's why the New York Times should be praised for having translations of articles in Spanish and Chinese, and the Wall Street Journal has articles in Japanese.
Why?

The Americans that do not speak German, but that are interested in what DS is saying, will know how to use Google translate.

Because where would it end. Should every mayor DS article about the Netherlands be translated into Dutch? Every article about North Korea into Korean? Every article about Russia into Russian....? What about international stories? Should every article about the EU be translated into 25+ languages? Every article about the UN into 200+ languages? And articles covering race relations in the USA, translate them only into English, or also Spanish?
Attamottamotta!
 
jcancel
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:12 pm

It goes back to what the German girl in Tokyo said: without actively promoting the works to the audience, people won't know. Perhaps 90% of people would be unaware that DS even exists as they don't see it in their news searches, so how would they go to Google translate and see the article? If an English article came, though, the major news aggregators on Reddit (the top ones like /r/news ban non-English articles) would accept it, and then it gets coverage. Perhaps it appears on Google News, etc.

Der Spiegel didn't do this and they were the ones with egg on their face.

It is most definitely true that resources are finite and not every article can be translated. I believe the following factors should be considered:
  • The resources of the publication
  • The stature of the author
  • The lack of fluency in the original language (many adult Dutch know English, but few adult Americans know Dutch)
  • The originality of the coverage
  • How extensively the target language is used

For example the NYT translated its NXIVM articles into Spanish as the cult had extensive operations in Mexico (it also translated them into Chinese for some reason)

petertenthije wrote:
Why?

The Americans that do not speak German, but that are interested in what DS is saying, will know how to use Google translate.

Because where would it end. Should every mayor DS article about the Netherlands be translated into Dutch? Every article about North Korea into Korean? Every article about Russia into Russian....? What about international stories? Should every article about the EU be translated into 25+ languages? Every article about the UN into 200+ languages? And articles covering race relations in the USA, translate them only into English, or also Spanish?
 
WIederling
Posts: 7999
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:17 pm

jcancel wrote:
If an English article came, though, the major news aggregators on Reddit (the top ones like /r/news ban non-English articles) would accept it, and then it gets coverage.


Afaics this is a failure on the aggregator and not the content producer side.

( same with the censoring of foreign language mail content on character groupings that are cuss words or have a sexual connotation in English. Thoughtless and rather offensive way of doing things.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
jcancel
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:39 pm

/r/worldnews has a short explanation https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/wiki ... ubmissions

6 Non-English articles - includes auto-translated articles. Redditors should be able to read the original article by themselves.


I suppose this is because they want to cater to English speakers, there are enough English articles the mods have to look at already, and because auto translations can be inaccurate.

On Reddit most subreddits don't censor swear words (I do find that censoring juvenile)

WIederling wrote:
jcancel wrote:
If an English article came, though, the major news aggregators on Reddit (the top ones like /r/news ban non-English articles) would accept it, and then it gets coverage.


Afaics this is a failure on the aggregator and not the content producer side.

( same with the censoring of foreign language mail content on character groupings that are cuss words or have a sexual connotation in English. Thoughtless and rather offensive way of doing things.)


Happily Der Spiegel did publish a corrective article on Fergus Falls in English and posted it on the Minnesota subreddit.
 
WIederling
Posts: 7999
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:18 pm

jcancel wrote:
Happily Der Spiegel did publish a corrective article on Fergus Falls in English and posted it on the Minnesota subreddit.


We've seen quite a bit of fabricated information peddled by for example fox.news.
An ongoing feature for many years and which was heavily defended by some here
counter corrective hints from "native" to the region posters.
Never retracted, never corrected and did never effect a journalistic cleanliness drive
at fox news.
Murphy is an optimist
 
jcancel
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Der Spiegal - "Institutional Bias"

Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:33 pm

This is why I love having translated news about English speaking countries from foreign sources. Die Welt and Le monde Diplomatique did original reporting on Brexit and chose to translate their articles for British audiences.

WIederling wrote:

We've seen quite a bit of fabricated information peddled by for example fox.news.
An ongoing feature for many years and which was heavily defended by some here
counter corrective hints from "native" to the region posters.
Never retracted, never corrected and did never effect a journalistic cleanliness drive
at fox news.

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