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Tugger
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Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:53 pm

The Russian baby is attacking/intercepting Ukraine ships as they pass though the straits. I am thinking a couple IS Navy shots will change their minds our at least vastly change the situation.

Ukraine accuses Russia of firing on, seizing three of its ships

http://a.msn.com/r/2/BBQ4wFe?a=1&m=EN-US


Russia needs to figure a way out of this box they have put themselves in and taking Ukraine ships is unacceptable.

I would also fully support NATO vessels taking up position.

Tugg
Last edited by atcsundevil on Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
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dfwjim1
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:08 am

What are IS Navy shots?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:31 am

If the war escalates, isn't the new Crimean bridge a prime target for Ukraine ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
salttee
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:49 am

That is the wrong place to engage the Russians. Any American ship firing on a Russian target would receive some serious incoming from several directions. Then what?

Aesma wrote:
If the war escalates, isn't the new Crimean bridge a prime target for Ukraine ?

Ding!
Via air strike
 
Cadet985
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:52 am

Park a couple Los Angeles Class SSN’s and Ohio Class SSBN/SSGN’s in the area...

Marc
 
salttee
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:59 am

Cadet985 wrote:
Park a couple Los Angeles Class SSN’s and Ohio Class SSBN/SSGN’s in the area...

Marc

The Black sea is a pretty small pond for those boats to be in. And it is Russia's back yard. Don't gamble more than you can afford to lose.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:21 am

Cadet985 wrote:
Park a couple Los Angeles Class SSN’s and Ohio Class SSBN/SSGN’s in the area...

Marc

Why in God's name would you park a ballistic missile submarine in the Black Sea?!
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:38 am

Our CiC, who continues to say that it was Obama's fault that Russia took Crimea, will take immediate action by leaving the Russians alone. He'll tell Putin that he has to leave Ukraine alone, at a summit in Finland, and then return triumphantly and tell us that Putin was honest in saying he won't meddle anymore. #MAGA
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:15 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:
Park a couple Los Angeles Class SSN’s and Ohio Class SSBN/SSGN’s in the area...

Marc

Why in God's name would you park a ballistic missile submarine in the Black Sea?!


Isn’t that a self-answering question? Nothing says, “I mean business” like 24 Trident missiles. Is that message wise? No.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:17 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
Our CiC, who continues to say that it was Obama's fault that Russia took Crimea, will take immediate action by leaving the Russians alone. He'll tell Putin that he has to leave Ukraine alone, at a summit in Finland, and then return triumphantly and tell us that Putin was honest in saying he won't meddle anymore. #MAGA


Trump has done more to piss off Putin than the Obama/Clinton team ever dreamed of doing.

GF
 
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Tugger
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:33 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:
Park a couple Los Angeles Class SSN’s and Ohio Class SSBN/SSGN’s in the area...

Marc

Why in God's name would you park a ballistic missile submarine in the Black Sea?!


Isn’t that a self-answering question? Nothing says, “I mean business” like 24 Trident missiles. Is that message wise? No.

No, their job is never to send "a message". And it would only put the subs at total risk. Their task and mission is to be a failsafe, to be invisible, and you want them in the largest bodies of water for that.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Trump has done more to piss off Putin than the Obama/Clinton team ever dreamed of doing.

No he hasn't, he has only demonstrated a desire to do with them as he has with the Saudi's: Ingratiate himself to them for whatever imagined benefit he can get for himself. He loves people/leaders/countries who play "power".

It is the Republicans (and Dems as well) that have held the line and forced sanctions upon the irresponsible Russian regime actions. Trump hates that.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:51 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:
Park a couple Los Angeles Class SSN’s and Ohio Class SSBN/SSGN’s in the area...

Marc

Why in God's name would you park a ballistic missile submarine in the Black Sea?!


Isn’t that a self-answering question? Nothing says, “I mean business” like 24 Trident missiles. Is that message wise? No.

Yikes. There are a bunch of reasons. Probably the one that will get the most push back (sadly) is yeah, it'll send a message, one of nuclear war, way unnecessarily. But let's move on...

These things shoot missiles with intercontinental range... They don't need to be 20 nm from Russia to effectively use. They deploy to, uh, wherever they go, somewhere super duper secluded, because they have the range. You wouldn't build an ICBM silo in an allied country right next to the border of Russia for a myriad of reasons, one being that again, they have the range to go around the world, why go through all the cons of having it right up Russia's ass? Short/medium range nuclear weapons are another story with their own problems, but we aren't talking about those.

But probably the most important reason is the acoustics of these subs are super top secret, again, for obvious reasons. There is absolutely no reason to deploy these subs where they could easily be picked up.


So in all, you'd be sending nuclear missile equipped subs right next to Russia's doorstep, needlessly and wrecklessly pushing us closer to the brink of an accidental nuclear war (well beyond "sending a message"), giving Putin the opportunity to look like the good guy, having the heightened chance of any unknown missile launch in this region viewed as a nuclear launch (with a lot less time for reaction which raises the possibility of a nuclear counterstrike, a huge reason why short/medium range nuclear weapons were banned in the first place), having our closely guarded subs transit through 3 choke points (Gibraltar, Bosphorus, and Dardanelles) and sit in a relatively small sea waiting to be tracked and acoustic signatures recorded, all so we can launch nuclear missiles in harm's way instead of some unknown random point in the middle of no where half a world away from Russia.

Guess it doesn't matter my thoughts on it because the odds of such a move getting signed off is less than the odds than Boeing restarting the 757 line the day Southwest orders 500 A380s
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:18 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Cadet985 wrote:
Park a couple Los Angeles Class SSN’s and Ohio Class SSBN/SSGN’s in the area...

Marc

Why in God's name would you park a ballistic missile submarine in the Black Sea?!


Isn’t that a self-answering question? Nothing says, “I mean business” like 24 Trident missiles. Is that message wise? No.


It’s a small rather shallow landlocked sea, a nuclear sub would be found very quickly. An unnecessary risk if ever there was one. Would the Turks even allow it in?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:22 am

Why would you start an conflict with Russia about practical nothing.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:05 am

How to handle Russia whom is bullying his neighbor? Don't do anything which you aren't prepared to finish. And on the other hand, Russia must be stopped from just doing anything it likes to its neighbors. Their salami tactics are working right now. What is the final piece of Salami which the world can't accept? Taking half of Ukraine? Taking all Ukraine? Taking the Baltics?
I do not have an answer to this, but something must be done, we cannot condone it.
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Flighty
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:14 am

We will not start WW3 even if Russia decides to conquer Ukraine. Which it probably will do in 20 of 30 years, using unconventional / non insignia troops, cyber and political subterfuge.

We have other priorities and Ukraine is not a military ally of ours. Good luck to them.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:23 am

Putin's approval rating must be heading south again . . . . :sarcastic:
 
WIederling
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:23 am

Cadet985 wrote:
Park a couple Los Angeles Class SSN’s and Ohio Class SSBN/SSGN’s in the area...

I know the US doesn't care about adhering to treaties but Turkey will put a foot down.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_ ... he_Straits
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WIederling
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:30 am

seahawk wrote:
Why would you start an conflict with Russia about practical nothing.


Afaics Ukraine Navy ships started the spat ( what kind of traffic is actually allowed under the bridge? )

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-26/ ... f/10553218

did Chocolate Poro get a Todo list and some money?

Strange that this happens in parallel with a new poison gas attack in Syria that is very difficult to
link with the regular government. Distraction?
Murphy is an optimist
 
JJJ
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:41 am

Kiwirob wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Why in God's name would you park a ballistic missile submarine in the Black Sea?!


Isn’t that a self-answering question? Nothing says, “I mean business” like 24 Trident missiles. Is that message wise? No.


It’s a small rather shallow landlocked sea, a nuclear sub would be found very quickly. An unnecessary risk if ever there was one. Would the Turks even allow it in?


They would. They'd even tell the US they won't tell anyone, wink, wink.

And one second later someone in the Kremlin knows the exact date and time those subs are passing through so that they get some low-cost intel on US nuclear subs accoustic signature.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:49 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Our CiC, who continues to say that it was Obama's fault that Russia took Crimea, will take immediate action by leaving the Russians alone. He'll tell Putin that he has to leave Ukraine alone, at a summit in Finland, and then return triumphantly and tell us that Putin was honest in saying he won't meddle anymore. #MAGA


Trump has done more to piss off Putin than the Obama/Clinton team ever dreamed of doing.

Do tell. Please. I'm all ears.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:59 am

WIederling wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Why would you start an conflict with Russia about practical nothing.


Afaics Ukraine Navy ships started the spat ( what kind of traffic is actually allowed under the bridge? )


How? Moving from one Ukranian port to another? The bridge is illegal and the annexation is illegal.

And you cannot block another nation to its port. Or Turkey can just close down the Bosphorus if they wanted to.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
VSMUT
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:02 pm

Tugger wrote:
I am thinking a couple IS Navy shots will change their minds our at least vastly change the situation.

I would also fully support NATO vessels taking up position.

Tugg


It's Russia's backyard. There are no military actions that the US can do about it, that won't kick off WWIII. And besides that, Ukraine is not a NATO member, and hence doesn't get the insurance from being one.


Cadet985 wrote:
Park a couple Los Angeles Class SSN’s and Ohio Class SSBN/SSGN’s in the area...

Marc


The Bosporus strait is only some 500 meters wide at the narrowest. How hard do you think it would be for the Russians, or their new chums in Turkey, to block those US Navy submarines inside the Black Sea? Better hope you can set up an emergency service and repair facility in Romania then...


WIederling wrote:
Afaics Ukraine Navy ships started the spat ( what kind of traffic is actually allowed under the bridge?)


In fairness, the arrangement from 2003 clearly says that military vessels are not barred from passing the strait:

The Joint Statement by the President of Ukraine and the President of
the Russian Federation on the Sea of Azov and the Strait of Kerch,
24 December 2003


President of Ukraine L. Kuchma and President of the Russian Federation V. Putin, guided by the relations of friendship and cooperation between the peoples of Ukraine and Russia, fraternalties between them, which formed historically; proceeding from the regulations of the Agreement on Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership between Ukraine and the Russian Federation of May 31, 1997 and the Agreement between Ukraine and the Russian Federation on the Ukrainian – Russian State Border of January 28, 2003; noting the importance of the Sea of Azov and the Strait of Kerch for the economic development of Ukraine and Russia; convinced that all the matters relating to the Sea of Azov and the Strait of Kerch should be solved only by peaceful means together or by agreement of Ukraine and Russia; confirm their common understanding that:

- the Azov - Kerch area of water is preserved as an integral economic and natural complex used in the interests of both states;

- historically the Sea of Azov and the Strait of Kerch are inland waters of Ukraine and Russia, and settlement of matters relating to the said area of water is realized by agreement between the Ukraine and Russia in accordance with international law;

- Ukrainian and Russian military ships and trade boats enjoy the freedom of navigation in the Sea of Azov and the Strait of Kerch;

- military ships under the flags of other states can enter the Sea of Azov and go through the Strait of Kerch only by an invitation of Ukraine or Russia agreed with the other state;

- the Ukrainian - Russian cooperation, including their common activity in the sphere of navigation, including its regulation and navigation and hydrographical provision, fishing, protection of the maritime environment, environmental safety, search and rescue operations in the Sea of Azov and the Strait of Kerch are guaranteed by the implementation of existing agreements and the signing of new agreements in the relevant cases. The Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine and the Government of the Russian Federation are commissioned to create a joint Ukrainian - Russian corporation for the purpose of cooperation in the Azov - Kerch area of water, including the exploitation of the Kerch-Yenikalskyi navigation channel.
The Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine and the Government of the Russian Federation are also commissioned to work out proposals on the renewal and development of ferry services between Ukraine and Russia through the Strait of Kerch for transportation of passengers and cargoes.

Kerch, December 24, 2003

President of Ukraine
L.Kuchma

President of the Russian Federation
V.Putin
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 pm

Does the West care enough to become directly involved, I doubt it.
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ltbewr
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:30 pm

Let Russia take control of the Ukraine, especially the area devastated by Chernobyl and clean it up. The USA needs to keep out of this mess, not take either side, this is a problem between the Ukraine and Russia we don't need to get involved with.
 
FTMCPIUS
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:37 pm

It is and always has been Ukraine, not THE Ukraine.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:53 pm

Flighty wrote:
We will not start WW3 even if Russia decides to conquer Ukraine. Which it probably will do in 20 of 30 years, using unconventional / non insignia troops, cyber and political subterfuge.

We have other priorities and Ukraine is not a military ally of ours. Good luck to them.


We much rather fight WW3 in Ukraine than in Poland. Appeasement doesn't work.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:55 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Our CiC, who continues to say that it was Obama's fault that Russia took Crimea, will take immediate action by leaving the Russians alone. He'll tell Putin that he has to leave Ukraine alone, at a summit in Finland, and then return triumphantly and tell us that Putin was honest in saying he won't meddle anymore. #MAGA


Trump has done more to piss off Putin than the Obama/Clinton team ever dreamed of doing.

Do tell. Please. I'm all ears.


Didn't congress force him to do some? He probably refers to those...

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:50 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Let Russia take control of the Ukraine, especially the area devastated by Chernobyl and clean it up.

Russia and "clean it up"? You should see what sort of environmental disaster the Red Army left behind on their bases.
Otherwise, what an asinine comment. :roll:
 
johns624
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:40 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Isn’t that a self-answering question? Nothing says, “I mean business” like 24 Trident missiles. Is that message wise? No.
I would think an ex-USAF officer would know a little about the Navy's strategic weapons and how they are used...I guess not. SSBNs are like snipers---why get 50 feet away when you can do it from 800 yards.
 
Redd
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:16 pm

Why the should the US get involved? France, the UK and Germany each have a very strong Navy and it would be good to see the EU show some force in protecting Europe instead of relying on the US. If there's one thing we've learned since Trump came to power, that's that we can't rely on the USA for security.

Ukraine is a buffer between the EU and Russia and it would be in the EU's best interest to keep it that way.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:47 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
Our CiC, who continues to say that it was Obama's fault that Russia took Crimea, will take immediate action by leaving the Russians alone. He'll tell Putin that he has to leave Ukraine alone, at a summit in Finland, and then return triumphantly and tell us that Putin was honest in saying he won't meddle anymore. #MAGA


Trump has done more to piss off Putin than the Obama/Clinton team ever dreamed of doing.

Do tell. Please. I'm all ears.


Sanctioning Rusal, Deripaska et al last April caused a massive puking of Russian securities and the ruble
Lethal aid to the Ukrainians, something Obama refused.
Challenging Merkel to cancel Nord Stream as a condition on trade agreement
Obliterating a column of Russian mercenaries in Syria

Just the highlights
 
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:50 pm

johns624 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Isn’t that a self-answering question? Nothing says, “I mean business” like 24 Trident missiles. Is that message wise? No.
I would think an ex-USAF officer would know a little about the Navy's strategic weapons and how they are used...I guess not. SSBNs are like snipers---why get 50 feet away when you can do it from 800 yards.


Low angle attacks are very quick and nearly undetected by warning systems designed for polar trajectories. No, I don’t think it’s a real possibility based on geography, Bosporus straits, shallow water, but there are tactics that don’t involve normal ballistic routes.
 
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Aeroflot777
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:01 am

Tugger wrote:
Russia needs to figure a way out of this box they have put themselves in and taking Ukraine ships is unacceptable.


Sounds like you only read one side of the story. But that's a different issue.

As for answering the topic's question, the answer should be simple with a "no".

This is a problem Russia and Ukraine need to figure out themselves, regardless on which side of the coin you agree with. We have enough stuff to deal with here on US soil and don't need to intervene in other's business like we usually tend to do. The issue at hand is more political than military and can be solved should there be the will for it.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:47 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Low angle attacks are very quick and nearly undetected by warning systems designed for polar trajectories. No, I don’t think it’s a real possibility based on geography, Bosporus straits, shallow water, but there are tactics that don’t involve normal ballistic routes.

You are continuing to miss the only real point: You don't threaten anyone with nuclear weapons.

They are a failsafe, not a threat. You use them when there is no other choice. And it is the worst choice anyone will ever make.

They are not toys.

I really thought everyone understood this.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
NoTime
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:18 am

Yikes. Seems some of the usual folks who call others "war mongers" are itching for a new war.
 
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Aeroflot777
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:01 am

NoTime wrote:
Yikes. Seems some of the usual folks who call others "war mongers" are itching for a new war.


Right? Funny how that works.
 
Flighty
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Re: Should US Navy park several quotes in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:47 am

Tugger wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Low angle attacks are very quick and nearly undetected by warning systems designed for polar trajectories. No, I don’t think it’s a real possibility based on geography, Bosporus straits, shallow water, but there are tactics that don’t involve normal ballistic routes.

You are continuing to miss the only real point: You don't threaten anyone with nuclear weapons.

They are a failsafe, not a threat. You use them when there is no other choice. And it is the worst choice anyone will ever make.

They are not toys.

I really thought everyone understood this.

Tugg

:checkmark:

Nukes are what protect the territorial integrity of US and close allies. They are what make a nuclear war between powers a non starter. We do not threaten nuclear strike against a major nuclear power unless we are willing to nuke our own people as well. In other words, never.

What can we do? Unconventional stuff like Russia and China use today. Ramming ships, jamming, cyber, non-insignia troops, light conventional war. But not WMD conflict. That is off the table.

With North Korea, it was different. We directly threatened them with nukes in response to their threats to detonate a nuke within our territorial area of Guam. Our threat of self defense was pretty real.
 
johns624
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:10 pm

Redd wrote:
Why the should the US get involved? France, the UK and Germany each have a very strong Navy.
What do you consider a "very strong navy". France and the UK have decent navies but the German Navy is nothing to write home about.
 
seb146
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:47 am

If the orange one sends troops, it will be to protect Russian interests, probably. You know, because those poor, put-upon Russians being bullied by those terrorists in Ukraine and all.....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:17 am

Tugger wrote:
The Russian baby is attacking/intercepting Ukraine ships as they pass though the straits. I am thinking a couple IS Navy shots will change their minds our at least vastly change the situation.

Ukraine accuses Russia of firing on, seizing three of its ships

http://a.msn.com/r/2/BBQ4wFe?a=1&m=EN-US


Russia needs to figure a way out of this box they have put themselves in and taking Ukraine ships is unacceptable.

I would also fully support NATO vessels taking up position.

Tugg


What about those terrorists at the Mexican border? Who will gas them?

Lets commit all our resources to secure our own borders fully before venturing into the Caspian mess!
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:32 am

Aeroflot777 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Russia needs to figure a way out of this box they have put themselves in and taking Ukraine ships is unacceptable.


Sounds like you only read one side of the story. But that's a different issue.

As for answering the topic's question, the answer should be simple with a "no".

This is a problem Russia and Ukraine need to figure out themselves, regardless on which side of the coin you agree with. We have enough stuff to deal with here on US soil and don't need to intervene in other's business like we usually tend to do. The issue at hand is more political than military and can be solved should there be the will for it.


Funny, I think we've heard the same thing before: "Italians and Ethiopians have to figure it out themselves", then "Germans and Czechs have to figure this out themselves", finally "Germans and Poles have to figure it out themselves"... ah, no, the final one blew up worldwide.

No, you don't let a revisionist revanchist power run amok. If you like peace of course. If Germany was clubbed backed into its hole during re-militarization of Rhineland, WWII wouldn't have happened.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2059
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:13 am

Phosphorus wrote:
No, you don't let a revisionist revanchist power run amok. If you like peace of course. If Germany was clubbed backed into its hole during re-militarization of Rhineland, WWII wouldn't have happened.


Okay genius, how do you suggest we club Russia back into it's hole then, without starting a nuclear war in the process?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9375
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:13 am

NoTime wrote:
Yikes. Seems some of the usual folks who call others "war mongers" are itching for a new war.


Well... experience with appeasement is rather negative. letting Russia get away with stuff like this is the best way to get to a nuclear war. You know, the one that kills you and your family along with everybody else.

That being said, it is fine with me to just increase sanctions. Best by taking Russia off the Internet.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Redd
Posts: 694
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:01 am

johns624 wrote:
Redd wrote:
Why the should the US get involved? France, the UK and Germany each have a very strong Navy.
What do you consider a "very strong navy". France and the UK have decent navies but the German Navy is nothing to write home about.



What I meant was, when working together, strong enough to rely on themselves for European defense without having to rely on the USA. France and UK are 6 and 5 respectively on the top 10 worlds strongest navies ranking (quick google search) and Germany has some very hi-tech subs and ships.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3061
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:38 am

Redd wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Redd wrote:
Why the should the US get involved? France, the UK and Germany each have a very strong Navy.
What do you consider a "very strong navy". France and the UK have decent navies but the German Navy is nothing to write home about.



What I meant was, when working together, strong enough to rely on themselves for European defense without having to rely on the USA. France and UK are 6 and 5 respectively on the top 10 worlds strongest navies ranking (quick google search) and Germany has some very hi-tech subs and ships.


So do Italy, the Netherlands and Spain. And you might as well add fellow NATO members Norway.

As far as surface combatants Russian navy relies on 70s designs with a single Admiral Gorshkov and a few modern corvettes while European navies have modern ASW and AAW frigates.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2059
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:45 am

Redd wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Redd wrote:
Why the should the US get involved? France, the UK and Germany each have a very strong Navy.
What do you consider a "very strong navy". France and the UK have decent navies but the German Navy is nothing to write home about.



What I meant was, when working together, strong enough to rely on themselves for European defense without having to rely on the USA. France and UK are 6 and 5 respectively on the top 10 worlds strongest navies ranking (quick google search) and Germany has some very hi-tech subs and ships.


Europe in this context would be the EU. Ukraine isn't part of it, and hence doesn't get the benefits. Same with NATO, only members get the benefits.


FTMCPIUS wrote:
It is and always has been Ukraine, not THE Ukraine.


It's ironic isn't it? These people claim to be pro-Ukrainian, but they apparently care so little that they still use the derogatory Russian reference to the country...
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5908
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:57 am

VSMUT wrote:
Okay genius, how do you suggest we club Russia back into it's hole then, without starting a nuclear war in the process?

That's the typical narrative of advocates of Russia's endless appeasment: either let neostalinist Russia do whatever it wants or else we all die in nuclear armageddon the next day.
There is a number of options... let's start with REAL sanctions this time... Aeroflot, Lukoil, Gazprom, Sberbank.
 
WIederling
Posts: 7121
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:09 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Okay genius, how do you suggest we club Russia back into it's hole then, without starting a nuclear war in the process?

That's the typical narrative of advocates of Russia's endless appeasment: either let neostalinist Russia do whatever it wants or else we all die in nuclear armageddon the next day.
There is a number of options... let's start with REAL sanctions this time... Aeroflot, Lukoil, Gazprom, Sberbank.


I'd really look out to sanctioning Ukrainian participants.
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 34511.html

Looks like Choco Poro started this to be able to pronounce martial law and put the upcoming election on the back burner.
Beyond his oligarch partners nobody in Ukraine seems to be happy with his presidency. His reelection is very questionable.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Redd
Posts: 694
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Should US Navy park several ships in Ukraine waters near Kerch Strait ?

Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:19 am

VSMUT wrote:
Europe in this context would be the EU. Ukraine isn't part of it, and hence doesn't get the benefits. Same with NATO, only members get the benefits.



It's entirely in the EU's benefit to have Ukraine as a buffer zone between itself and Russia.

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