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Dutchy
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MH17 - thread

Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:56 pm

I was searching for an appropriate thread to post news about the MH17. I could not find it, so I thought I would open a thread where we can discuss the news when it comes, so we don't need to open a thread about every subject.

-----------------
In the news today:

RELATIVES OF MH17 VICTIMS HAS SUBMITTED TO RUSSIA TO THE COURT

The Russian Federation is accused of providing false information to the investigation of the downed Boeing.In the Netherlands, the 55 relatives of the passengers Boeing 777, which was downed over Donbas region in 2014, on Friday, November 23, filed a lawsuit against Russia with the European court of human rights, reports the online edition of the Chronicle.info with reference to the Correspondent.

“Russia, to the surprise of my clients, failed to provide important information to the group, leading the investigation. She then gave the arguments that were untrue,” – said, commenting on Dutch public television a lawsuit, the lawyer Meera MEVA. He is among the group of lawyers providing support to relatives of victims.


article in English

We will see what the verdict of the European court of human rights is going to be. Interesting that this is done by the victims family, not by a government and it isn't supported by the Dutch government.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
petertenthije
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Re: MH17 - thread

Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:49 pm

This trial will not lead to anything until the investigators have officially determined who is/are guilty of shooting down MH17. Once that has been settled it is possible to detemine how much Russia hindered the investigation.

Also, by Dutch law you are allowed to remain silent if answering a question would incriminate you. So Russia is perfectly allowed to keep quiet or hold back potentially incriminating evidence. Obviously, actively impeding the investigators is not allowed.

From the outside looking in, it does seem highly likely that Russia is blocking/hindering the investigation. But if this can be proven beyond reasonable doubt in front of a judge remains to be seen. For that the JIT would probably have to reveal sources and/or information that could be vital to the MH17 trial. Sources/information that, at the moment, can not be disclosed to avoid contaminating the evidence.
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DeltaMD90
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Re: MH17 - thread

Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:46 pm

What I find so weird about the case is the fact I still hear people (trolls or way too blindly pro Russian) claim it could've been a Ukrainian fighter that shot it down. Like come on at least use the most current excuse and not one dismissed/contradicted by Russia itself

Had Putin just admitted right off the bat it was a rebel force acting way too wrecklessly and idk, made all responsible "disappear", I think it would've mostly blown over

I know that us Westerners can be way too anti Russian and blindly accept our own media's coverage (something we accuse Russians of doing) but me being as objective as I could, it does point towards the Russian backed rebels (not Russians, but the rebels)
 
salttee
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Re: MH17 - thread

Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:27 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Had Putin just admitted right off the bat it was a rebel force acting way too wrecklessly and idk, made all responsible "disappear", I think it would've mostly blown over

You seem to have convinced yourself that "it was a rebel force" manning the TELAR and that they were inept; do you have some source of information that supports your idea? I've never seen anything to support that speculation at all and logic dictates that it would have been Russian soldiers manning the TELAR.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 - thread

Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:28 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
What I find so weird about the case is the fact I still hear people (trolls or way too blindly pro Russian) claim it could've been a Ukrainian fighter that shot it down. Like come on at least use the most current excuse and not one dismissed/contradicted by Russia itself

Had Putin just admitted right off the bat it was a rebel force acting way too wrecklessly and idk, made all responsible "disappear", I think it would've mostly blown over

I know that us Westerners can be way too anti Russian and blindly accept our own media's coverage (something we accuse Russians of doing) but me being as objective as I could, it does point towards the Russian backed rebels (not Russians, but the rebels)


Putin could not do that, because then he had to explain where the BUK came from, and it has been proven by the JIT that it came from Russian military stock. The Russian narrative is that Russia has nothing to do with rebels and they do not support them, we all know it is bs, but that's why Putin could not just admit to it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: MH17 - thread

Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:45 pm

salttee wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Had Putin just admitted right off the bat it was a rebel force acting way too wrecklessly and idk, made all responsible "disappear", I think it would've mostly blown over

You seem to have convinced yourself that "it was a rebel force" manning the TELAR and that they were inept; do you have some source of information that supports your idea? I've never seen anything to support that speculation at all and logic dictates that it would have been Russian soldiers manning the TELAR.

Edit: before reading my way too long of a post, are you saying you don't think it was a rebel force, you think it was Russian? My rereading of your post now makes me think that, I wrote my response based on my previous reading where I thought you were absolving Russian or Russian back forces from the downing...


IDK, I'd have to look up the old threads because it was a long time ago and it's not a bunch of info I have memorized. What I saw years ago was enough to put me in the "the rebels shot it down" camp.

Not a great answer but I can't retain all knowledge on all events I've ever formed opinions on, and erase my opinions as soon as I forget a lot of the background information in a few weeks.

Same reason I have opinions that 9/11 wasn't done by Bush or Israel, that the moon landings weren't fake, Sandy Hook wasn't staged, etc. I'd have to look up exact reasons to counter whatever random argument is thrown at it. In this case, I don't see a good reason to dig up all that info unless new evidence emerges or a very compelling argument is made.

So yeah, my mind is made up, and I came to that conclusion based off the evidence I saw and jettisoned from my brain to fit other more important facts in.

But I'll hear you out... In the simplest of nutshells, it seems like Russia was backing certain militias and arming them (don't think there is any controversy there so far,) provided weapons including BUKs, due to oversights or underestimation or even incompetence MH17 was allowed to fly into this airspace, rebels either misidentified due to lack of training/assumed airliners wouldn't be flying in a warzone/both and shot it down.

Seem to remember hearing phone recordings (yeah I guess anything could have been faked,) BS about a Ukrainian fighter shooting it down which Russia seems to have abandoned but I see still argued by random people, Russia presenting evidence that the BUK that downed MH17 (Russia saying it's a BUK is why I said that Russia has abandoned the fighter theory) which doesn't make sense at all to me based off the lack of an air threat by the rebels and the direction of MH17 (unless, oh no, conspiracy by Ukraine!)

So yeah, I'm not properly armed and read up on everything to convince the world, I admit that. I'm saying I had enough to personally convince me and I'm not going to abandon that position simply because I don't remember it all. But that ^ is what I remember from it all, some of it could be misremembered so again, don't take any minor detail as an admission that my opinion is completely invalid, I'd normally look things up more when I shift into "convince others" mode.

But I'm more than happy to hear what you have to say and will take what you say onboard and change my views on it all, or not. Sorry for the novel-long post
 
salttee
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Re: MH17 - thread

Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:27 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
are you saying you don't think it was a rebel force, you think it was Russian?

Correct. If someone wants to imagine that irregulars manned that TELAR, they will have to tell me what level of command would have decided to give control of that Russian weapons system to civilians: certainly not the battery or battalion commander, that kind of decision would be far above their pay grade. If some high command decided to send a TELAR across the border it would make no sense to have amateurs operate the equipment; they would want somebody they could trust, somebody with the technical skills to operate the TELAR and that would mean the Russian soldier who usually mans the TELAR.

I see no sign of incompetence, the shooter set up almost directly underneath the intersection of three airways: L980, L69 and M70; it seems a bit of a stretch to think that was just a coincidence. Information about where civilian flight paths were located would not likely be in the domain of irregular infantry types. It is significant that they were set up a very short time before launching on the first plane to pass by, and they got a kill with their first shot. All this has been worked out by Bellingcat, we know exactly where the TELAR was when it launched and we know the timeline of its travels. The TELAR immediately packed up and scooted back to its 53rd Brigade area of operations on the Russian side of the border after the launch. None of this looks like the work of amateurs.

I believe the TELAR was escorted by "rebels", they would have been the logical choice for security because they knew the circumstance on the Ukraine side of the border; it would have been one of these undisciplined thugs who sent the tweet claiming credit for the kill. But the technicians operating the TELAR had to have been from the 53rd Brigade.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: MH17 - thread

Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:39 pm

salttee wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
are you saying you don't think it was a rebel force, you think it was Russian?

Correct. If someone wants to imagine that irregulars manned that TELAR, they will have to tell me what level of command would have decided to give control of that Russian weapons system to civilians: certainly not the battery or battalion commander, that kind of decision would be far above their pay grade. If some high command decided to send a TELAR across the border it would make no sense to have amateurs operate the equipment; they would want somebody they could trust, somebody with the technical skills to operate the TELAR and that would mean the Russian soldier who usually mans the TELAR.

I see no sign of incompetence, the shooter set up almost directly underneath the intersection of three airways: L980, L69 and M70; it seems a bit of a stretch to think that was just a coincidence. Information about where civilian flight paths were located would not likely be in the domain of irregular infantry types. It is significant that they were set up a very short time before launching on the first plane to pass by, and they got a kill with their first shot. All this has been worked out by Bellingcat, we know exactly where the TELAR was when it launched and we know the timeline of its travels. The TELAR immediately packed up and scooted back to its 53rd Brigade area of operations on the Russian side of the border after the launch. None of this looks like the work of amateurs.

I believe the TELAR was escorted by "rebels", they would have been the logical choice for security because they knew the circumstance on the Ukraine side of the border; it would have been one of these undisciplined thugs who sent the tweet claiming credit for the kill. But the technicians operating the TELAR had to have been from the 53rd Brigade.

Ah, gotcha. What would Russia have to gain by doing this? I mean it's make more sense if the Russians sent a BUK over to shoot down Ukrainian transports but an airliner? (Not sure if that's what you are implying.)

Not saying a stupid, ill-thought-out plan disproves itself, but no matter what side one is on, it seems like Russia took a public relations ding from this

As far as BUK training, could Russia not have trained some rebels on BUK usage? Could the rebels have had prior training on Ukrainian BUKs?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 - thread

Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:48 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Ah, gotcha. What would Russia have to gain by doing this? I mean it's make more sense if the Russians sent a BUK over to shoot down Ukrainian transports but an airliner? (Not sure if that's what you are implying.)


I believe the MH17 has been shot down by accident, no matter who did it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
salttee
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Re: MH17 - thread

Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:55 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
What would Russia have to gain by doing this?

One possibility that sticks in my mind is that a much higher level commander was tired of the Russian Army pussyfooting around, with the Russian Army sitting on the Russian side of the border and the "rebels" getting themselves killed, so he wanted to stir the pot and make one side or the other escalate so that the Russian Army could cross the border and solve the problem by taking everything east of the Dnjepr River in that latitude: the whole of eastern Ukraine.

There are no shortage of historical records of military commanders pulling such stunts. And these types don't give a hoot about "public relations dings", they intend to write history.
 
WIederling
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Re: MH17 - thread

Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:08 pm

salttee wrote:
There are no shortage of historical records of military commanders pulling such stunts. And these types don't give a hoot about "public relations dings", they intend to write history.


I'd think to give substance you'd have to show that Soviet/Russian military top brass have a history to that effect.
( beyond deranged US movies and James Bond flicks.)
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salttee
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Re: MH17 - thread

Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:24 pm

WIederling wrote:
salttee wrote:
There are no shortage of historical records of military commanders pulling such stunts. And these types don't give a hoot about "public relations dings", they intend to write history.


I'd think to give substance you'd have to show that Soviet/Russian military top brass have a history to that effect.
( beyond deranged US movies and James Bond flicks.)
There was MacArthur's advance to the Chinese border which was intended to bring China into the fray so that he could invade "red" China (he underestimated the response.) Patton was notorious for that kind of behavior, as soon as he took command of Third Army he began an offensive to the east when his orders were to secure the Brest peninsula. The Soviet front probably didn't lend itself so much to that tactic and I don't know much about their commanders anyway. It isn't a tactic that's limited to top brass, it's been done down to the squad level and it's probably been done by someone in every war that's ever happened.

A version of it is happening right now as protesters are throwing rocks at US border patrol, trying to elicit an overreaction.
 
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Re: MH17 - thread

Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:35 pm

salttee wrote:
WIederling wrote:
salttee wrote:
There are no shortage of historical records of military commanders pulling such stunts. And these types don't give a hoot about "public relations dings", they intend to write history.


I'd think to give substance you'd have to show that Soviet/Russian military top brass have a history to that effect.
( beyond deranged US movies and James Bond flicks.)
There was MacArthur's advance to the Chinese border which was intended to bring China into the fray so that he could invade "red" China (he underestimated the response.) Patton was notorious for that kind of behavior, as soon as he took command of Third Army he began an offensive to the east when his orders were to secure the Brest peninsula. The Soviet front probably didn't lend itself so much to that tactic and I don't know much about their commanders anyway. It isn't a tactic that's limited to top brass, it's been done down to the squad level and it's probably been done by someone in every war that's ever happened.

A version of it is happening right now as protesters are throwing rocks at US border patrol, trying to elicit an overreaction.


I'd think to give substance you'd have to show that Soviet/Russian military top brass have a history to that effect.
( beyond deranged US movies and James Bond flicks.)


you made that statement to explain your "some rogue russian commander did it" quip.
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 - thread

Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:40 pm

WIederling wrote:
I'd think to give substance you'd have to show that Soviet/Russian military top brass have a history to that effect.


"Green men" in Crimea, were regular Russian soldiers - Putin said so. So the president is there, recent and in the same conflict.

But let's see what the official investigation can uncover. And see where this court case is going to lead to.
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salttee
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Re: MH17 - thread

Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:04 pm

WIederling wrote:
I'd think to give substance you'd have to show that Soviet/Russian military top brass have a history to that effect.
( beyond deranged US movies and James Bond flicks.)


you made that statement to explain your "some rogue russian commander did it" quip.

I don't have to explain it any further to you. If you have a child's' view of the Machiavellian world we live in, that's your problem.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: MH17 - thread

Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:03 pm

MH17 haunts me.

I remember when the news broke, and some guy filmed the devastation just minutes after the plane went down. I made the mistake of watching. It was uncensored, and I’ll never forget the sight of a little boys foot with a blue sock beneath a mangled chair. I was also disgusted by highly disrespectful onlookers driving over remains, as if they were mere roadkill.

I simply can’t understand how Putin, or any of those monsters can see images of dead children, and not feel compelled to do the right thing. MH17 should be a reminder to all of us that Putin is a tyrant, and enemy to civilized people everywhere. I have no doubt that history will condemn him.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 - thread

Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:02 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
MH17 haunts me.

I remember when the news broke, and some guy filmed the devastation just minutes after the plane went down. I made the mistake of watching. It was uncensored, and I’ll never forget the sight of a little boys foot with a blue sock beneath a mangled chair. I was also disgusted by highly disrespectful onlookers driving over remains, as if they were mere roadkill.

I simply can’t understand how Putin, or any of those monsters can see images of dead children, and not feel compelled to do the right thing. MH17 should be a reminder to all of us that Putin is a tyrant, and enemy to civilized people everywhere. I have no doubt that history will condemn him.


Well said, Justin.
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WIederling
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Re: MH17 - thread

Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:16 pm

salttee wrote:
I don't have to explain it any further to you. If you have a child's' view of the Machiavellian world we live in, that's your problem.

A quality statement as could be expected.
You are still out on showing a history of rouge behavior in the (former) soviet/russian military top brass.
Like forex the Atomic imbeciles in the US that pushed for a winnable nuclear war or
nefarious schemes to oust one Fidel Castro. ... until JFK put a stop to that. ( cost him his life in the end apparently.)
Last edited by WIederling on Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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salttee
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Re: MH17 - thread

Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:23 pm

*ignored*
 
alfa164
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Re: MH17 - thread

Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:49 pm

WIederling wrote:
You are still out on showing a history of rouge (sic) behavior in the (former) soviet/russian military top brass.


Are you referring to Putin here? You should be.

WIederling wrote:
Like forex the Atomic imbeciles in the US that pushed for a winnable nuclear war or nefarious schemes to oust one Fidel Castro. ... until JFK put a stop to that. ( cost him his life in the end apparently.)


And you point is...? All that is totally irrelevant to the topic of Russia's part in killing almost 300 innocent civilians in the MH17 debacle.

Just like someone asked about Putin... how can you live with yourself? Have you totally removed yourself from any concern for these human beings? Or are you just happy to collect troll farm payments and ignore the consequences?
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salttee
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Re: MH17 - thread

Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:58 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Are you referring to Putin here? You should be.


Ding!

The apartment bombings provide the perfect answer to WIederling's question.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: MH17 - thread

Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:31 am

As long as Putin's around justice for the MH17 victims will not be had. Remember KE007? It took what, almost a decade, and a fall of an empire for Russia to admit they goofed up and that they have the CVR/FDR - and all of the main players at the Kremlin were dead by then.
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Dutchy
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Re: MH17 - thread

Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:34 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
As long as Putin's around justice for the MH17 victims will not be had. Remember KE007? It took what, almost a decade, and a fall of an empire for Russia to admit they goofed up and that they have the CVR/FDR - and all of the main players at the Kremlin were dead by then.


Might be so before the Kremlin will admit it, but I think there well be a legal action taken before that and it will be proven in a court of law, regardless what the Putin regime is doing.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
salttee
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Re: MH17 - thread

Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:33 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
As long as Putin's around justice for the MH17 victims will not be had. Remember KE007? It took what, almost a decade, and a fall of an empire for Russia to admit they goofed up and that they have the CVR/FDR - and all of the main players at the Kremlin were dead by then.
How did they goof up? The only way I can see that they goofed up was by almost allowing that plane to get away. They hid the fact that they had the CVR/FDR but they admitted shooting it down early on.

The people who never came clean are on the US/SK side. They were probing Russia's air defenses that night. I had two good friends aboard that plane, I've paid attention to that one.
 
A3801000
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Re: MH17 - thread

Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:50 pm

'Dutch confident Russia will agree to talks about downed flight MH17'

'“We are in contact with Russia over national accountability via diplomatic channels,” a foreign ministry spokeswoman said. '

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukra ... SKCN1PW2CF


And the paid russki trolls arriving and spreading nonsense in 3, 2, ....

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