910A
Topic Author
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Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:46 pm

Will this new law have effect on gun violence or is it just another feel good vote:

Weary votes say enough to gun violence

Washington voters clearly fed up with gun violence passed one of the strongest new gun laws in the nation.

After the first day of vote-counting, Initiative 1639 held a decisive lead with 60 percent of the vote statewide.


The measure makes sensible improvements to Washington state gun laws that will save lives. It makes buying a semi-automatic assault rifle more difficult for everyone. It raises the minimum purchase age from 18 to 21 for semi-automatic rifles — the same age required for handgun purchases — increases background-check requirements and adds a 10-day waiting period. The proposal would also establish new safe-storage rules and require safety training for buyers of any kind of gun or rifle.


https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/ed ... -violence/
 
johnboy
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Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:54 pm

Sounds decent enough to me. Not sure how they verify safe storage but it’s a start.

When the hell did we decide that anything and everything goes when it comes to the right to bear arms? And that whole militia thing too? When did we start ignoring that?

Seems like the gun freaks are trying to turn that dead, dead, dead Constitution into a living document for their own twisted purposes.
 
910A
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Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:22 pm

johnboy wrote:
Sounds decent enough to me. Not sure how they verify safe storage but it’s a start.
.


I imagine when one's toddler get ahold of a firearm and shoots their sibling it will be as plain as day that the firearm was not secured and safety stored. About time the gun owner is held accountable for the damage their firearms do, because of their careless actions.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:22 pm

I think we should start holding cops accountable for accidental/inappropriate shootings before we start going after civilians. Cops should be held to a higher standard than civilians.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:52 am

As a gun owner (I'd be considered a gun nut to most in this forum) I welcome these changes. I get grief from my fellow gun owners all the time. The most common complaint is the slippery slope (if you give them this, it'll be easier for them to do that.) They're probably right honestly, but I try to advocate what I think is right regardless of 4 dimensional chess.

I've long said the greatest threat to gun rights are gun owners. The more we gun owners protest common sense measures such as universal background checks, safe storage, etc, the more partisan it'll be. That means it'll be no change, no change, no change, BAN ALL SEMI AUTO RIFLES.

The majority-ish threshold is on our side now, but once 51% of America gets fed up with the status quo, it won't incrementally get more strict, it'll jump to magazine bans, "assault weapon" bans, or even full fledged semi auto bans. Our European posters may call me nuts but I think you can have a pretty safe society with "assault weapons" or "high capacity" magazines, but they need regulation. Unfortunately, it'll be no regulation until it's super strict regulation under this environment
 
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bgm
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Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:14 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I think you can have a pretty safe society with "assault weapons" or "high capacity" magazines, but they need regulation. Unfortunately, it'll be no regulation until it's super strict regulation under this environment


The statistics say otherwise I’m afraid. Your love of guns should not override the innocent lives lost in mass shootings. As a society, the US needs to realise that.

Eventually it will probably go as you predicted: to full bans on certain firearms once enough people are against it. Once enough innocent lives are lost. And you’ll only have the gun nuts to blame, since they fought back against any type of common sense gun laws.

So I guess we just wait, loaded with more tots n prayers until America is finally sick of all the loss of life and demands change.

Until that point no, it is not safe. With anyone, especially those with mental health issues/PTSD having easy access to assault rifles, you will continue to have bodies piling up while you enjoy your hardon from owing a gun.
When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat. - George Carlin
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:52 pm

Except, legally owning firearms has nearly zero to do with nutters who, by and large, don’t give a hoot about guns except as a means to kill people. I agree with DeltaMD90 on safe practices, but I sincerely doubt any of the killers care a whit about safety, storage, having or not having licenses. We’ve created a somewhat uniquely violent generation of generally young males who, in loneliness and isolation, believe the only meaning in their lives is to go out as a mass killer. Safes, laws, licensing, even confiscation isn’t goning to fix the root problem.

GF
 
seb146
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Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:11 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Except, legally owning firearms has nearly zero to do with nutters who, by and large, don’t give a hoot about guns except as a means to kill people. I agree with DeltaMD90 on safe practices, but I sincerely doubt any of the killers care a whit about safety, storage, having or not having licenses. We’ve created a somewhat uniquely violent generation of generally young males who, in loneliness and isolation, believe the only meaning in their lives is to go out as a mass killer. Safes, laws, licensing, even confiscation isn’t goning to fix the root problem.

GF


IIRC, some of the mass murderers had easy access to guns through their family.

Another thing that we need to address is access to mental health. SOME of these mass murders would not be or be less if there were access to mental health. But, as with health care, we must put profit before people.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:07 am

seb146 wrote:
Another thing that we need to address is access to mental health. SOME of these mass murders would not be or be less if there were access to mental health. But, as with health care, we must put profit before people.

It does boggle me how many on the right are super against government safety net healthcare (insert your preferred term here) but anytime there us a mass shooting, mental health is made a huge public issue. While I have heard many thread that needle, the explanations I've heard are not convincing IMO

The obvious answer is that the mental health excuse is an easy scapegoat, though I would've figured with Republicans on board to "tackle mental health", them and the Democrats could surely come to some agreement (hey, something's better than nothing right?)
 
tommy1808
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Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:24 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
As a gun owner (I'd be considered a gun nut to most in this forum) I welcome these changes.


I would say that welcoming sensible changes to gun laws makes the difference between a gun enthusiast and a gun nut.

910A wrote:
johnboy wrote:
Sounds decent enough to me. Not sure how they verify safe storage but it’s a start.
.


I imagine when one's toddler get ahold of a firearm and shoots their sibling it will be as plain as day that the firearm was not secured and safety stored. About time the gun owner is held accountable for the damage their firearms do, because of their careless actions.


Yup. that would be the way to go: If something happens that only could happen without safe storage, the owner is on the hook for it.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
bennett123
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Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:38 am

Do you mean that I can have a Semi Automatic Rifle at 18, but have to reach 21 for a Handgun.
 
johns624
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Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:21 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Do you mean that I can have a Semi Automatic Rifle at 18, but have to reach 21 for a Handgun.
yes, it's always been that way. Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of murders and other crimes are committed with handguns, since they're concealable and easy to carry. It's only the rare occasion that a nutter kills people with a rifle, but it makes the news because of the number of victims.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:42 am

johns624 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Do you mean that I can have a Semi Automatic Rifle at 18, but have to reach 21 for a Handgun.
yes, it's always been that way. Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of murders and other crimes are committed with handguns, since they're concealable and easy to carry. It's only the rare occasion that a nutter kills people with a rifle, but it makes the news because of the number of victims.

It's what frustrates me about the gun control debate... It takes way more nuance than most people have the patience for.

I hear that handguns are used in way more crimes as an excuse to ignore mass shootings with semi autos (you are NOT doing that, I'm just saying I see people do that all the time.) It's treated like a checkmate, can't focus on more than one thing at a time.

On the other hand, you have many many people that, no offense, are completely and utterly uneducated about the basics of guns. While I get it, they don't care about the technical specs, they just want the shootings to stop, unfortunately you need to be somewhat educated on the bare basics or else you look like a fool and fight for completely ineffective measures (most "assault weapons" bans fall in this category.) You can have a highly deadly weapon but no bayonet lug! Can't have pistol grips on rifles, that'll do a lot of good :roll:

When you get down to it, it becomes a debate on limiting/banning semi autos. That is the common denominator in all the scary guns they indirectly target. But that is a tough sell for a lot of people, not just gun nuts. Sugar coat it all you want, semi autos is what would need to be targeted

Continuing my rant no one cares about, ammo limitations are also very annoying, arguments I've had on this site. "Who needs thousands of rounds?" Good question, but look at mass shootings, they're not carting around thousands of rounds, they're carrying several dozen, maybe like two hundred at most. Good luck limiting ammo sales to like 50 and keeping track of how much someone still has... as if 50 isn't enough to do a lot of damage. Oh, the answer to the question of who needs thousands? Someone that wants to save money (bulk is cheaper, duh) and/or someone that doesn't want to place an order after every time you go to the range.



tl;dr Nuance, education on the matter, and not throwing out every out of context or misleading meme stat you found on the internet... That is what is needed in the gun control debate. Yeah right, good luck with that ;)
 
c933103
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Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:12 pm

Then, why don't the America introduce some form of mental health test before granting permit to people buying guns, just like America would require tests taken by people before they can have their driving permit?
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:20 pm

c933103 wrote:
Then, why don't the America introduce some form of mental health test before granting permit to people buying guns, just like America would require tests taken by people before they can have their driving permit?

Because it is a burden/roadblock to a Constitutionally granted right, just like there shouldn't be hoops to jump through to be able to exercise free speech.

That is the argument, and though I disagree (I'd really like there to be some sort of mental health checks) the argument does have merit, at least in the way the courts have interpreted the 2nd Amendment. I hear so many people keep talking about a well regulated militia in their arguments for more stringent gun laws, and again, I agree with that reading of the 2nd Amendment, but it kinda doesn't matter because that's not how the courts have interpreted it.

So while comparing it to a driver's license makes sense at face value, it's completely apples and oranges.

And fire away... Like I said I personally agree with you, but the reality is it doesn't work like that. There are a lot of good measures that could be passed without legal trouble, why those haven't passed? Well, I'm sure you know the answer to that
 
Bostrom
Posts: 540
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Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:32 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
As a gun owner (I'd be considered a gun nut to most in this forum) I welcome these changes. I get grief from my fellow gun owners all the time. The most common complaint is the slippery slope (if you give them this, it'll be easier for them to do that.) They're probably right honestly, but I try to advocate what I think is right regardless of 4 dimensional chess.

I've long said the greatest threat to gun rights are gun owners. The more we gun owners protest common sense measures such as universal background checks, safe storage, etc, the more partisan it'll be. That means it'll be no change, no change, no change, BAN ALL SEMI AUTO RIFLES.

The majority-ish threshold is on our side now, but once 51% of America gets fed up with the status quo, it won't incrementally get more strict, it'll jump to magazine bans, "assault weapon" bans, or even full fledged semi auto bans. Our European posters may call me nuts but I think you can have a pretty safe society with "assault weapons" or "high capacity" magazines, but they need regulation. Unfortunately, it'll be no regulation until it's super strict regulation under this environment


As a European, I won't call you nuts. In fact you sound like you have a reasonable approach to gun ownership. Contrary to what some Americans seem to think, there are people that own guns in Europe. But one big difference is that we have no NRA and very few gun nuts. And from my point of view, the NRA and the gun nuts are probably the reasonable gun owner's worst enemies for the reason you state.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:45 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Then, why don't the America introduce some form of mental health test before granting permit to people buying guns, just like America would require tests taken by people before they can have their driving permit?

Because it is a burden/roadblock to a Constitutionally granted right, just like there shouldn't be hoops to jump through to be able to exercise free speech.


You are however expected to know what is and isn't free speech. If you don't and abuse that right, courts wont care that you expected free speech to really mean that you can say whatever you want whenever you want.
Of course you are not expected to pass a test before you can speak your mind, but if you fail to use your right properly, the consequences are in you and you only. With arms the consequences, and usually the more dire ones, are suffered by someone else.

So the question really is: how much hoop jumping can be justified to use one right in order to reduce violations of another right by Y percent. The higher one values a single life, the more hoops to jump through that person will think are justified.

That balancing act is done for pretty much any two rights, and with the 2nd amendment that balance seems to be tipping quite wide to one side.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
JJJ
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Washington Voters: Yes to new gun law

Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:50 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Do you mean that I can have a Semi Automatic Rifle at 18, but have to reach 21 for a Handgun.
yes, it's always been that way. Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of murders and other crimes are committed with handguns, since they're concealable and easy to carry. It's only the rare occasion that a nutter kills people with a rifle, but it makes the news because of the number of victims.

It's what frustrates me about the gun control debate... It takes way more nuance than most people have the patience for.

I hear that handguns are used in way more crimes as an excuse to ignore mass shootings with semi autos (you are NOT doing that, I'm just saying I see people do that all the time.) It's treated like a checkmate, can't focus on more than one thing at a time.

On the other hand, you have many many people that, no offense, are completely and utterly uneducated about the basics of guns. While I get it, they don't care about the technical specs, they just want the shootings to stop, unfortunately you need to be somewhat educated on the bare basics or else you look like a fool and fight for completely ineffective measures (most "assault weapons" bans fall in this category.) You can have a highly deadly weapon but no bayonet lug! Can't have pistol grips on rifles, that'll do a lot of good :roll:

When you get down to it, it becomes a debate on limiting/banning semi autos. That is the common denominator in all the scary guns they indirectly target. But that is a tough sell for a lot of people, not just gun nuts. Sugar coat it all you want, semi autos is what would need to be targeted

Continuing my rant no one cares about, ammo limitations are also very annoying, arguments I've had on this site. "Who needs thousands of rounds?" Good question, but look at mass shootings, they're not carting around thousands of rounds, they're carrying several dozen, maybe like two hundred at most. Good luck limiting ammo sales to like 50 and keeping track of how much someone still has... as if 50 isn't enough to do a lot of damage. Oh, the answer to the question of who needs thousands? Someone that wants to save money (bulk is cheaper, duh) and/or someone that doesn't want to place an order after every time you go to the range.


As a gun user from the other side of the pond who has talked the issue with police buying big is not a problem, unusual buying patterns are, and people have been caught before doing nasty stuff because of that. A lot of police officers are recreational shooters, and have no more love of regulations than we do.

Anyway this is something only workable if you have a purpose license system like we do over here. Target guns are harder to get than hunting guns, but unusual ammo buying patterns get checked more thoroughly for hunting weapons. As per self-defence weapons they're the hardest to get and also the most under police scrutiny, because they're the ones that allow for greater freedom to carry.

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