NIKV69
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:28 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

People must realise by now that thoughts and prayers have failed to stem the tidal wave of death, something else like gun control rather than believing in a higher power must be the answer.


Yet you fail to realize we don't want to be your country. We are the USA and we have the right to bear arms. If that is attempted to be infringed the pushback will be massive.

Why you refuse to get this through to your brain is beyond me.
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MrHMSH
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:29 pm

DL717 wrote:
wingman wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Looks like California gun laws are working. We don’t have many gun laws in my state. No shootings either. Seems city folk can’t control themselves.


Answer the question, where are you from?


The United States. Anything further is none of your goddamn business. No go back to your fake stats.


What a pleasant bloke you are. Anyway, wingman provided stats that showed your state does in fact have shootings, because EVERY state has shootings, thus making your claim very much wrong. Given that you can't even comprehend this any of your other opinions are quite questionable, especially the ones about 'fake stats'.

Here are the stats, for your benefit. I eagerly await your explanation as to how and why they are fake.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosma ... irearm.htm
 
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ER757
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:30 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
BlueberryWheats wrote:
If only the gun had a gun. It could have prevented itself being used in this tragedy.

A sheriff responding to the scene was killed. So there goes that theory. Maybe a canon?


Where's our pal Wayne LaPierre and his "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" nonsense? Sadly for the brave police officer, it didn't work out that way. And he was a trained professional - now let's imagine teachers being armed in a school shooting scenario......better yet, let's not.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:30 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

People must realise by now that thoughts and prayers have failed to stem the tidal wave of death, something else like gun control rather than believing in a higher power must be the answer.


Yet you fail to realize we don't want to be your country. We are the USA and we have the right to bear arms. If that is attempted to be infringed the pushback will be massive.

Why you refuse to get this through to your brain is beyond me.


It doesn't matter that thousands are killed in senseless gun violence, Americans MUST have a right to bear arms.

What a joke.
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Tugger
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:35 pm

DL717 wrote:
wingman wrote:
Here's the actual list by state:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... 359395002/

I'm excited to learn where DL717 is from. The NRA talking point to explain away his lyin' bullshit will be an awesome display of mental gymnastics! I imagine in his state it's mostly blacks dying so you get to divide that number by ten to equate it to normal people.


Don’t be obtuse with a piss poor news article. CAs gun murder rate places them at #17. No one gives a flip if you off yourself. #15 in violent crime. Bravo! #34...LMFAO. That’s about as loose as one can get with stats.

Take your race nonsense and pack it in. Pathetic.

Source?

Tugg
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scbriml
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:45 pm

seahawk wrote:
It is like, cars do you forbid cars, because people die in accidents?


It's nothing like cars for lots of reasons, but mainly for the key word you used - 'accidents'.

Mass shootings are not accidents.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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MaverickM11
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:57 pm

DL717 wrote:
No one gives a flip if you off yourself.

"Support the troops! Just kidding no one cares." Lemme guess--you get really upset when people don't stand for the anthem? :roll:

DL717 wrote:
The United States. Anything further is none of your goddamn business. No go back to your fake stats.

In other words, big hat--no cattle. :hissyfit:
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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moo
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:58 pm

scbriml wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It is like, cars do you forbid cars, because people die in accidents?


It's nothing like cars for lots of reasons, but mainly for the key word you used - 'accidents'.

Mass shootings are not accidents.


When people deliberately drive vehicles through crowds of people, we take action like erecting barriers between the crowds and vehicles.

So yes, when cars are used as weapons, action is taken.
 
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DL717
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:27 am

MrHMSH wrote:
DL717 wrote:
wingman wrote:

Answer the question, where are you from?


The United States. Anything further is none of your goddamn business. No go back to your fake stats.


What a pleasant bloke you are. Anyway, wingman provided stats that showed your state does in fact have shootings, because EVERY state has shootings, thus making your claim very much wrong. Given that you can't even comprehend this any of your other opinions are quite questionable, especially the ones about 'fake stats'.

Here are the stats, for your benefit. I eagerly await your explanation as to how and why they are fake.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosma ... irearm.htm


Spare me. The stat that matters when it comes to gun deaths is the gun murder rate. Now go read what those stats really mean. The gun control argument isn’t about self harm. People will find another way. Its about harm to others so quit the silly stats game of California is safer than 70% of the country. It’s laughable.

Further, there are no recorded shootings like this in my state. Not one.
Everything is chits and giggles until you get old enough to giggle and then you chit.
 
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DL717
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:34 am

moo wrote:
scbriml wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It is like, cars do you forbid cars, because people die in accidents?


It's nothing like cars for lots of reasons, but mainly for the key word you used - 'accidents'.

Mass shootings are not accidents.


When people deliberately drive vehicles through crowds of people, we take action like erecting barriers between the crowds and vehicles.

So yes, when cars are used as weapons, action is taken.


They always find another way.
Everything is chits and giggles until you get old enough to giggle and then you chit.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:01 am

Jalap wrote:
Because people die in accidents, there are heavy regulations on them.
Speed limits, traffic lights, curbstones, stuff like that.
Heavy regulations on dangerous stuff generally is a good idea.


If you think cars are heavily regulated, I'd hate to know what you consider gun regulations to be. Hellish, maybe? Cars are relatively lightly regulated in comparison.

I find it ironic that millions and millions of people are so afraid of guns, yet they have no trouble hopping in a tool that kills many times more per day, and it kills much more indiscriminately. A perceived threat is deemed more important to address. Insanity.
 
salttee
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:07 am

DL717 wrote:
Looks like California gun laws are working. We don’t have many gun laws in my state. No shootings either.

You must live in the state of amnesia.

DL717 wrote:
People can’t handle stress or rejection anymore. Cupcake society.

Just wow, such depth of intellect.
 
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MassAppeal
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:18 am

MrHMSH wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:

No other country has a constitutional amendment allowing citizens to freely carry. That's the No. 1 main issue. Other countries can easily legislate guns away without having to pass the constitutional tests we do. Its not an easy thing to do like it is in Germany or Sweden where that fundamental right doesn't exist to begin with.


'We can't change the law because the law is the law' is a very poor excuse. Amendments can be changed, but there is no appetite to. The culture around guns is a huge, huge problem for you.

Another problem is how do you figure out if someone is dangerous? Right now a raving lunatic can't get a gun but a normal depressed person can. Is that enough to stop them from getting one? Is someone who hates women enough to deny? That's the issue many people struggle with. Saying we need to stop dangerous people from getting guns is a very simple and unrealistic way to approach it. Of course we should, but is a pissed off husband or a loser incel who hates women the bar we want to lower it to?


It's beyond my understanding, truth be told, but some mechanism to determine if a person is a risk is a lot better than having so few restrictions at all.

Its preventable when guns aren't already in the hands of most Americans. The reason they don't happen in Germany or the UK with such frequency is because there aren't that many guns around. And yeah, everyone makes the Switzerland argument but those are completely different scenarios.




And your plane crash scenario is different too. Air travel isn't a constitutionally guaranteed right.


'The law is the law and the law cannot be changed'...

With air crashes a problem is recognised and rectified ASAP, sometimes even before, such is the importance of safety. A shift more towards even accepting there is a problem would be a dramatic step in the right direction, but some people don't even see there is a problem. Some people here demonstrate that capably.

And just so you know I'm not a gun nut or even a gun owner.


I'm glad, I worry about the state of people who think that their right to imagine they could overthrow the government outweighs the deaths and suffering caused by having that right.


Its not just the law its the constitution. People in the USA take it very seriously and believe it or not most Americans support being able to privately own guns. Amendments can be changed but its something that is a massive undertaking and requires almost universal support- something changing the 2nd amendment doesn't have or hasn't had in centuries. Some do consider that a flaw and others consider that a great thing.

Again, the background check thing can only go so far. How many mass shooters showed mental illness enough to take away their guns? Not many. I think the sheer lack of mass shootings is another sign its because of truly crazy lone wolfs than not allowing "crazy people" to own guns. There are A LOT of crazy people out there that don't shoot people.

Every single American realizes there is an issue with mass shootings but are deeply divided on what to do. Why weren't there mass shootings in the 30's, 40's, 50's, or 60s? Of course there were shootings but these big bombastic events are recent. That tells many people there's something in society that's changing. There were just as many guns around back in the day. I personally think its a little of both.


I'm glad, I worry about the state of people who think that their right to imagine they could overthrow the government outweighs the deaths and suffering caused by having that right.


Don't get me wrong I support gun ownership and the right to carry if someone wants to. Its just not for me. I'd vote to keep it if given the option. I think its a right for someone to be able to defend their home or innocent people against violence and having a gun is another tool to do that. 99% of gun owners don't really think they can overthrow the government but its naive to think it doesn't play a part in the government having pause in certain instances. Look at the BLM issues out west...guns in the hands of civilians absolutely makes the government think twice about acting rashly.

Its not like Americans are just ignoring guns. Its one of the biggest issues in society and because its a constitutionally protected right combined with how central guns play in the lives of so many that makes it one of the most difficult things to change. Its a part of our national psyche and at the moment these shootings are something we're accepting as a necessary evil until we find out the reasons. And judging by how gun laws have changed in the last 20 years the ability to own and carry guns is going to be expanded greatly. The amount of states with constitutional carry alone is staggering.
 
AA747123
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:24 am

Guns are not the issue here people. People are the issue. Nothing you can do about gun violence, except having more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns. Perhaps night clubs that have over a certain capacity should have armed guards.
 
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moo
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:26 am

DL717 wrote:
moo wrote:
scbriml wrote:

It's nothing like cars for lots of reasons, but mainly for the key word you used - 'accidents'.

Mass shootings are not accidents.


When people deliberately drive vehicles through crowds of people, we take action like erecting barriers between the crowds and vehicles.

So yes, when cars are used as weapons, action is taken.


They always find another way.


So the answer is "do nothing" then?

I'm glad I don't live in the US.

One thing I was wondering when I heard this news break earlier was whether there had been a mass shooting in any other developed western nation (G8, G15 whatever) since the last US mass shooting and before this one? I can't immediately think of any. Doesn't that indicate the US has a serious problem?
 
Wacker1000
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:34 am

MassAppeal wrote:
Its preventable when guns aren't already in the hands of most Americans. The reason they don't happen in Germany or the UK with such frequency is because there aren't that many guns around.


Germany is happy to prove that taking guns away doesn't stop lunatics from murdering people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_truck_attack

And in the UK they're too busy stabbing each other after school to be bothered with guns: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/06/health/y ... index.html



petertenthije wrote:
Cars are a bad analogy. They are strictly controlled. You need a driving license, car insurance and the car requires an annual safety check. Restrictions can be placed on you if your health deteriorates. And that’s just for ownership. To use the car you have to comply to the highway code. And both the ownership rules and highway code are actually enforced.


Yet there are plenty of uninsured and/or unlicensed people driving around causing accidents.....
 
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moo
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:46 am

Wacker1000 wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
Its preventable when guns aren't already in the hands of most Americans. The reason they don't happen in Germany or the UK with such frequency is because there aren't that many guns around.


Germany is happy to prove that taking guns away doesn't stop lunatics from murdering people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_truck_attack

And in the UK they're too busy stabbing each other after school to be bothered with guns: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/06/health/y ... index.html



petertenthije wrote:
Cars are a bad analogy. They are strictly controlled. You need a driving license, car insurance and the car requires an annual safety check. Restrictions can be placed on you if your health deteriorates. And that’s just for ownership. To use the car you have to comply to the highway code. And both the ownership rules and highway code are actually enforced.


Yet there are plenty of uninsured and/or unlicensed people driving around causing accidents.....


Despite all attempts to show that other countries have a similar problem to justify not doing anything about gun ownership in the US, the fact remains that while attacks and crime via other means happens, its orders of magnitude lower than gun crime in the US.

Knife crimes still happen in the US.

Vehicular murder still happens in the US.

Which indicates to me that you still need to do something about gun crime in the US before you can claim any sort of moral or ethical ground by holding up vehicular murder in Berlin or knife crime in the UK.
 
salttee
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:50 am

MassAppeal wrote:
Its not just the law its the constitution.
It's one interpretation of the Constitution. And it's a stretch at that.

AA747123 wrote:
Guns are not the issue here people. People are the issue.

No, guns are the issue.
 
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MassAppeal
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:07 am

salttee wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
Its not just the law its the constitution.
It's one interpretation of the Constitution. And it's a stretch at that.

AA747123 wrote:
Guns are not the issue here people. People are the issue.

No, guns are the issue.


By a stretch you mean every federal and state court in the land upholding the right for citizens to own guns then yeah I guess you're right.
 
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DL717
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:07 am

scbriml wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It is like, cars do you forbid cars, because people die in accidents?


It's nothing like cars for lots of reasons, but mainly for the key word you used - 'accidents'.

Mass shootings are not accidents.


Nor is driving under the influence.
Everything is chits and giggles until you get old enough to giggle and then you chit.
 
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DL717
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:09 am

salttee wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
Its not just the law its the constitution.
It's one interpretation of the Constitution. And it's a stretch at that.

AA747123 wrote:
Guns are not the issue here people. People are the issue.

No, guns are the issue.


No, guns are not the issue. People are.
Everything is chits and giggles until you get old enough to giggle and then you chit.
 
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DL717
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:10 am

moo wrote:
Wacker1000 wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
Its preventable when guns aren't already in the hands of most Americans. The reason they don't happen in Germany or the UK with such frequency is because there aren't that many guns around.


Germany is happy to prove that taking guns away doesn't stop lunatics from murdering people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_truck_attack

And in the UK they're too busy stabbing each other after school to be bothered with guns: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/06/health/y ... index.html



petertenthije wrote:
Cars are a bad analogy. They are strictly controlled. You need a driving license, car insurance and the car requires an annual safety check. Restrictions can be placed on you if your health deteriorates. And that’s just for ownership. To use the car you have to comply to the highway code. And both the ownership rules and highway code are actually enforced.


Yet there are plenty of uninsured and/or unlicensed people driving around causing accidents.....


Despite all attempts to show that other countries have a similar problem to justify not doing anything about gun ownership in the US, the fact remains that while attacks and crime via other means happens, its orders of magnitude lower than gun crime in the US.

Knife crimes still happen in the US.

Vehicular murder still happens in the US.

Which indicates to me that you still need to do something about gun crime in the US before you can claim any sort of moral or ethical ground by holding up vehicular murder in Berlin or knife crime in the UK.


Yes, we need to do something about crime. Guns aren’t the problem. People are.
Everything is chits and giggles until you get old enough to giggle and then you chit.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:15 am

DL717 wrote:

They always find another way.


However these ways are much, much less effective at killing, which is why so few attacks are ever at the scale of mass shootings. Don't forget, you have mass shootings on average virtually every day, whereas in most other countries they are very rare, 2 in the last 2 decades in the UK and Australia. Those are just the mass shootings, not the murders and suicides to boot. And don't forget, all the other ways of killing people are available to people in the USA as well, so much more choice in how to kill people.

Wacker1000 wrote:
Germany is happy to prove that taking guns away doesn't stop lunatics from murdering people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_truck_attack

And in the UK they're too busy stabbing each other after school to be bothered with guns: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/06/health/y ... index.html


Individual events do not prove a narrative. Anyway, in Germany and the UK the homicide rate is approximately 5 times lower than the US', so it's quite clear that more action is taken and it's having a more positive effect. As a general point, 'well people die in other countries' is an utterly pathetic defence of the situation in the USA. If your only recourse is to talk about other countries (with few statistics and no context) then your argument is probably fairly weak. If you want to defend the gun situation, then defend it, don't attack someone else, if you want to talk about gun/car deaths in Europe then start a thread.

Yet there are plenty of uninsured and/or unlicensed people driving around causing accidents.....


It's difficult to prevent all crime, but effort is put into stopping people and it is illegal, driving generally gets safer every year anyway. And again, it's also irrelevant to the topic at hand.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:17 am

DL717 wrote:

Yes, we need to do something about crime. Guns aren’t the problem. People are.


But by some weird coincidence, the countries with tighter regulations on guns have fewer murders, suicides and often lower murder rates overall. The only developed country with such lax gun laws is the only one that has such regular shootings.

I also eagerly await your plan to do something about the 'people problem' and how you'd implement changes.
 
salttee
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:36 am

DL717 wrote:
salttee wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
Its not just the law its the constitution.
It's one interpretation of the Constitution. And it's a stretch at that.

AA747123 wrote:
Guns are not the issue here people. People are the issue.

No, guns are the issue.


No, guns are not the issue. People are.
People are a given. Guns are what need to be eliminated.
 
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MassAppeal
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:50 am

MrHMSH wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Yes, we need to do something about crime. Guns aren’t the problem. People are.


But by some weird coincidence, the countries with tighter regulations on guns have fewer murders, suicides and often lower murder rates overall. The only developed country with such lax gun laws is the only one that has such regular shootings.

I also eagerly await your plan to do something about the 'people problem' and how you'd implement changes.


The suicide rates are a misleading metric to compare because they're all over the place worldwide. Rates are high in Japan, Korea, and Belgium for example. Is it worse jumping off a building than shooting yourself?
 
alfa164
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:59 am

seahawk wrote:
It is like, cars do you forbid cars, because people die in accidents? And other countries have crazy laws as well.


That continues to be one of the silliest and most inane arguments the guns-for-everybody supporters have to offer. There is a major flaw in that "logic":

Cars are designed, built, and bought to provide transportation, and any deaths that occur are accidental and not the use for which the cars were meant.

Guns are designed, built, and bought to kill - something or somebody - and serve no other purpose.

So please spare us the "cars = guns" fallacy.

DL717 wrote:
Further, there are no recorded shootings like this in my state. Not one.


That is what happens when you live in a state of ignorance...

:roll:

MrHMSH wrote:
But by some weird coincidence, the countries with tighter regulations on guns have fewer murders, suicides and often lower murder rates overall. The only developed country with such lax gun laws is the only one that has such regular shootings..


Australia's reduction in gun deaths, following the tightening of its gun laws. provides an excellent example of what can happen when reasonable limitations are put into effect.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:50 am

DL717 wrote:
They always find another way.

I always disliked this answer. Anecdotes can be found, but counties with more gun control have less guns deaths (taking into account a lot of factors... smuggling, poverty, etc.)

And this is coming from a gun owner, an owner of "assault weapons" (I dislike and disagree with the way that phrase is used which is why I put it in quotes.)

We gun owners harness so much power in the US. If we wanted to, we could get universal background checks passed (yeah it'll be more inconvenient to give a nephew a shotgun.) We could mandate safe storage (yeah it gets in our business, but shouldn't us responsible gun owners have safe storage anyway?) Maybe make "assault weapons" and "high capacity mags" (another phrase I detest) a bit harder to acquire, but still obtainable. IDK, getting my AK-74 a few days later with a few extra checks is fine by me, I didn't need my AKMS a couple days early. I'll live waiting. And so will many more with these laws



Don't want target you directly, DL717. I probably disagree with you on some / a lot of gun control but I haven't read every post you made or read your mind... I'm merely responding to just the quote itself
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:05 am

MassAppeal wrote:

The suicide rates are a misleading metric to compare because they're all over the place worldwide. Rates are high in Japan, Korea, and Belgium for example. Is it worse jumping off a building than shooting yourself?


A gun is the easiest way of doing it though, still something to reduce. I also forgot to add accidents caused by guns, which add a fairly healthy tally to the stats.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:07 am

MassAppeal wrote:
The suicide rates are a misleading metric to compare because they're all over the place worldwide. Rates are high in Japan, Korea, and Belgium for example. Is it worse jumping off a building than shooting yourself?

Not within a country, or state, or even city when you compare suicides in households with guns versus without. And there's a huge difference.

Wacker1000 wrote:
Germany is happy to prove that taking guns away doesn't stop lunatics from murdering people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_truck_attack

And in the UK they're too busy stabbing each other after school to be bothered with guns: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/06/health/y ... index.html

Cool story. Hey--out of curiosity--what is the homicide rate in all three countries?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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moo
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:12 am

DL717 wrote:
moo wrote:
Wacker1000 wrote:

Germany is happy to prove that taking guns away doesn't stop lunatics from murdering people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_truck_attack

And in the UK they're too busy stabbing each other after school to be bothered with guns: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/06/health/y ... index.html





Yet there are plenty of uninsured and/or unlicensed people driving around causing accidents.....


Despite all attempts to show that other countries have a similar problem to justify not doing anything about gun ownership in the US, the fact remains that while attacks and crime via other means happens, its orders of magnitude lower than gun crime in the US.

Knife crimes still happen in the US.

Vehicular murder still happens in the US.

Which indicates to me that you still need to do something about gun crime in the US before you can claim any sort of moral or ethical ground by holding up vehicular murder in Berlin or knife crime in the UK.


Yes, we need to do something about crime. Guns aren’t the problem. People are.


The verdict is certainly in on that count - people with guns are indeed significantly more of a problem than people without guns, whether you want to blame guns or people for that. More guns doesn't solve the problems, it exacerbates them.

Mass shootings in the US now seem to be a monthly issue, whereas mass vehicular killings in Germany are not or mass knifings in the UK are not.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:19 am

MrHMSH wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:

The suicide rates are a misleading metric to compare because they're all over the place worldwide. Rates are high in Japan, Korea, and Belgium for example. Is it worse jumping off a building than shooting yourself?


A gun is the easiest way of doing it though, still something to reduce. I also forgot to add accidents caused by guns, which add a fairly healthy tally to the stats.

I'm sympathic to gun control arguments, but this really should be a side point. For one, suicide vs homicide is a very different issue. It really shifts "should a gun owner's rights limited because of someone else's suicidal tendencies?" It's an issue, but really one that should be divorced from gun violence, IMO

If anything, it's an easy argument for an anti-gun control advocate to knock down, and for some good reasons


Accidents, while an important issue, also derail the argument IMO. The causes are different, and the solutions often a lot more benign (usually unsafe storage, a problem I believe most responsible gun owners get behind)


After that, you have the more nefarious gun violence. Are we talking about the rampant gun violence in Chicago used by guns generally deemed as safer by gun control advocates? Mass shootings which grab headlines but are relatively rare (but not rare outside of the US?) Guns getting into the hands of maniacs that actually might be prevented by strict enforcement of our current laws or somewhat benign changes of current law? The general, easy spread of guns to the average Joe that might use the gun in the heat of the moment because it's there but wouldn't otherwise (probably the biggest problem, IMO)

Nuance! Annoying, but necessary
 
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BartSimpson
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:47 am

DL717 wrote:
No, guns are not the issue. People are.


If people are the problem then you should put the blame on your ex-ex-president who produced so many disordered veterans by starting a war and sending perfectly same human beings into it.
 
Scorpio
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:21 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

People must realise by now that thoughts and prayers have failed to stem the tidal wave of death, something else like gun control rather than believing in a higher power must be the answer.


Yet you fail to realize we don't want to be your country. We are the USA and we have the right to bear arms. If that is attempted to be infringed the pushback will be massive.

Why you refuse to get this through to your brain is beyond me.

And what you don't seem to realise is that no-one appointed YOU to be the spokesman for your country. You are in the minority, as a majority of Americans are in favor of having stricter gun laws. Yet it is the loud minority who, every time even the slightest measure to introduce sensible gun control is proposed or even mentioned go absolutely apeshit, yell 'don't take mah gunzz' and threaten violence, with the support of the powerful gun lobby, who are stopping the will of the majority of the American people from being done.

So why exactly do you think the rest of the country should be taken hostage by you?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:42 am

DL717 wrote:
moo wrote:
Wacker1000 wrote:

Germany is happy to prove that taking guns away doesn't stop lunatics from murdering people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_truck_attack

And in the UK they're too busy stabbing each other after school to be bothered with guns: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/06/health/y ... index.html





Yet there are plenty of uninsured and/or unlicensed people driving around causing accidents.....


Despite all attempts to show that other countries have a similar problem to justify not doing anything about gun ownership in the US, the fact remains that while attacks and crime via other means happens, its orders of magnitude lower than gun crime in the US.

Knife crimes still happen in the US.

Vehicular murder still happens in the US.

Which indicates to me that you still need to do something about gun crime in the US before you can claim any sort of moral or ethical ground by holding up vehicular murder in Berlin or knife crime in the UK.


Yes, we need to do something about crime. Guns aren’t the problem. People are.


I don't necessarily disagree - but let's extrapolate. What do we do about them? The problems are different. Inner city folks commit crimes because their illegal livelihoods require it or they have grown up stressed with bad role models. Time after time these white shooters are either nutjobs their family couldn't handle or incels who definitely can't take rejection - or both. What's your remedy?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
A3801000
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:35 am

AA747123 wrote:
Guns are not the issue here people. People are the issue. Nothing you can do about gun violence, except having more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns. Perhaps night clubs that have over a certain capacity should have armed guards.


You mean like in any other developed country? This was mass shooting #307 in the USA in 2018. In Germany? 0 Australia? 0
You want to live in a country where every school, every bar, every beach, every church has armed guards? While you can't pay your teachers? Only because some people with small penises need guns to feel manly?
 
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notaxonrotax
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:37 am

NIKV69 wrote:
we don't want to be your country. We are the USA and we have the right to bear arms. If that is attempted to be infringed the pushback will be massive.



Enjoy being the USA!
Enjoy your arms.
Enjoy your mass shootings.

The solution is obvious, but the Americans don`t want the solution......so no, I am not particularly sad when things like this happen.


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stratclub
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:45 am

seahawk wrote:
It is a small price to pay for freedom and the right of self defence. It is like, cars do you forbid cars, because people die in accidents? And other countries have crazy laws as well. In Europe you can buy dangerous Kindereier, a chocolate weapon of mass destruction, that the US citizen is protected from due to strict border control.

Your house of card argument really falls apart if you actually read the 2nd amendment as it was written. By any stretch of the imagination how can this simple and straight forward amendment be rewritten and misinterpreted as the NRA and gun manufacturers have done? Nowhere in the 2nd amendment is arms for personal protection mentioned.

2nd Amendment:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The 2nd amendment was never intended to grant everyone unlimited access to guns. The need for a well regulated militia is not a requirement today because unlike when the amendment was written, we now have trained professional law enforcement and trained professional armed forces. Is your plan to take up arms against the United States? Let me know how that works for you............
Last edited by stratclub on Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
marcelh
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:06 am

DL717 wrote:
salttee wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
Its not just the law its the constitution.
It's one interpretation of the Constitution. And it's a stretch at that.

AA747123 wrote:
Guns are not the issue here people. People are the issue.

No, guns are the issue.


No, guns are not the issue. People are.

True. But the USA isn’t really successfull to “cure” those people which shouldn’t have guns. Neither country is, and that is why some “civilised” countries choose to ban weapons. Problem solved
 
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scbriml
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:23 am

DL717 wrote:
They always find another way.


'They' don't need to find another way when guns are so readily available. But hey, why make it difficult for a nut to massacre people or shoot-up a school full of kids?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 8648
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:43 am

A3801000 wrote:
AA747123 wrote:
Guns are not the issue here people. People are the issue. Nothing you can do about gun violence, except having more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns. Perhaps night clubs that have over a certain capacity should have armed guards.


You mean like in any other developed country? This was mass shooting #307 in the USA in 2018. In Germany? 0 Australia? 0
You want to live in a country where every school, every bar, every beach, every church has armed guards? While you can't pay your teachers? Only because some people with small penises need guns to feel manly?


LOL - as a female acquaintance once said: "I've never dated a well hung guy who was against gun control."
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
seb146
Posts: 18278
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:49 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Because people die in accidents, there are heavy regulations on them.
Speed limits, traffic lights, curbstones, stuff like that.
Heavy regulations on dangerous stuff generally is a good idea.


If you think cars are heavily regulated, I'd hate to know what you consider gun regulations to be. Hellish, maybe? Cars are relatively lightly regulated in comparison.

I find it ironic that millions and millions of people are so afraid of guns, yet they have no trouble hopping in a tool that kills many times more per day, and it kills much more indiscriminately. A perceived threat is deemed more important to address. Insanity.


Right. Anyone can just hop in a car and go. Eleven year old? Blind? Anyone. These are the regulations people are talking about. Insurance, road worthiness, competence of the driver. Ammosexuals want none of that for guns.

The Second Amendment was written before weapons as we have today existed. You guys can't even agree on what constitutes an automatic or semi-automatic weapon. Every single damn time there is a mass shooting, we have to do this stupid dance about what is and isn't an automatic weapon. If we go with the NRA definition, we are told we don't know what we are talking about. If we go with the ammosexual right wing crazy definition, we are told we don't know what we are talking about.

Regulate guns like cars. People keep comparing guns to cars. There is no comparison, but let's play this game. Regulate guns like cars. Mandatory insurance for EVERY gun, just like with cars. Competency tests for every gun owner. This includes not only physical competency but knowing routine maintenance and care. Mandatory inspection for safety for EVERY gun.

Before you ammosexuals start whining, keep in mind that not everyone wants, can get, or needs a car. Not everyone wants, can get, or needs a licence.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Redd
Posts: 678
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:12 am

seb146 wrote:

Regulate guns like cars. People keep comparing guns to cars. There is no comparison, but let's play this game. Regulate guns like cars. Mandatory insurance for EVERY gun, just like with cars. Competency tests for every gun owner. This includes not only physical competency but knowing routine maintenance and care. Mandatory inspection for safety for EVERY gun.

Before you ammosexuals start whining, keep in mind that not everyone wants, can get, or needs a car. Not everyone wants, can get, or needs a licence.


I think psychological testing needs to be thrown in there as well, and would serve well being the first requirement. I think gun supporters should support this 100%. So many tests to pass and competencies to master would not only make the USA a safer place, but they could be proud that they have 'earned' the right to have a gun. That''s what America is all about after all, earning things and working hard for them. Gun laws are just hand-outs at the moment. Anyone can have them regardless of skill, psychological health or physical health.
 
WIederling
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:16 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

People must realise by now that thoughts and prayers have failed to stem the tidal wave of death, something else like gun control rather than believing in a higher power must be the answer.


Yet you fail to realize we don't want to be your country. We are the USA and we have the right to bear arms. If that is attempted to be infringed the pushback will be massive.


A brilliant reply to scoop up everything that is wrong with the US.
A global danger. Only you don't notice that.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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MassAppeal
Posts: 142
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:11 pm

seb146 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Because people die in accidents, there are heavy regulations on them.
Speed limits, traffic lights, curbstones, stuff like that.
Heavy regulations on dangerous stuff generally is a good idea.


If you think cars are heavily regulated, I'd hate to know what you consider gun regulations to be. Hellish, maybe? Cars are relatively lightly regulated in comparison.

I find it ironic that millions and millions of people are so afraid of guns, yet they have no trouble hopping in a tool that kills many times more per day, and it kills much more indiscriminately. A perceived threat is deemed more important to address. Insanity.


Right. Anyone can just hop in a car and go. Eleven year old? Blind? Anyone. These are the regulations people are talking about. Insurance, road worthiness, competence of the driver. Ammosexuals want none of that for guns.

The Second Amendment was written before weapons as we have today existed. You guys can't even agree on what constitutes an automatic or semi-automatic weapon. Every single damn time there is a mass shooting, we have to do this stupid dance about what is and isn't an automatic weapon. If we go with the NRA definition, we are told we don't know what we are talking about. If we go with the ammosexual right wing crazy definition, we are told we don't know what we are talking about.

Regulate guns like cars. People keep comparing guns to cars. There is no comparison, but let's play this game. Regulate guns like cars. Mandatory insurance for EVERY gun, just like with cars. Competency tests for every gun owner. This includes not only physical competency but knowing routine maintenance and care. Mandatory inspection for safety for EVERY gun.

Before you ammosexuals start whining, keep in mind that not everyone wants, can get, or needs a car. Not everyone wants, can get, or needs a licence.


Lots of homosexuals carry guns every day for protection. Its saved many of them from physical violence.
 
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DL717
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:21 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Yes, we need to do something about crime. Guns aren’t the problem. People are.


But by some weird coincidence, the countries with tighter regulations on guns have fewer murders, suicides and often lower murder rates overall. The only developed country with such lax gun laws is the only one that has such regular shootings.

I also eagerly await your plan to do something about the 'people problem' and how you'd implement changes.


Their societies are also less stressful and more in tune with the family unit creating a superior support environment. The one thing the US has completely wrong is the destruction of the family in the last 40 years, which interestingly enough correlates with the increase in gun violence. Particularly in minority communities where a coherent family unit is near non existent.
Everything is chits and giggles until you get old enough to giggle and then you chit.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:59 pm

DL717 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Yes, we need to do something about crime. Guns aren’t the problem. People are.


But by some weird coincidence, the countries with tighter regulations on guns have fewer murders, suicides and often lower murder rates overall. The only developed country with such lax gun laws is the only one that has such regular shootings.

I also eagerly await your plan to do something about the 'people problem' and how you'd implement changes.


Their societies are also less stressful and more in tune with the family unit creating a superior support environment. The one thing the US has completely wrong is the destruction of the family in the last 40 years, which interestingly enough correlates with the increase in gun violence. Particularly in minority communities where a coherent family unit is near non existent.


The UK is less stressful and more in tune with the family unit? This is news to me. Can you quantify that, or at least explain what 'more in tune with the family unit' means?

The issues affecting the USA are not specific to the USA, but the gun violence is, you can't look at the evidence and say that the vastly higher rates of murders and such are down to anything other than the gun culture and more lax laws.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:04 pm

seb146 wrote:
Right. Anyone can just hop in a car and go. Eleven year old? Blind? Anyone. These are the regulations people are talking about. Insurance, road worthiness, competence of the driver. Ammosexuals want none of that for guns.

The Second Amendment was written before weapons as we have today existed. You guys can't even agree on what constitutes an automatic or semi-automatic weapon. Every single damn time there is a mass shooting, we have to do this stupid dance about what is and isn't an automatic weapon. If we go with the NRA definition, we are told we don't know what we are talking about. If we go with the ammosexual right wing crazy definition, we are told we don't know what we are talking about.

Regulate guns like cars. People keep comparing guns to cars. There is no comparison, but let's play this game. Regulate guns like cars. Mandatory insurance for EVERY gun, just like with cars. Competency tests for every gun owner. This includes not only physical competency but knowing routine maintenance and care. Mandatory inspection for safety for EVERY gun.

Before you ammosexuals start whining, keep in mind that not everyone wants, can get, or needs a car. Not everyone wants, can get, or needs a licence.


And there's where you prove my point. Insurance? Fair point, but being able to pay for it is the only true restriction. Same as any other good you may own, like guns. Road worthiness? Not in my state and many others. And inspections are limited in scope. It's equivalent to saying certain guns need to be checked for working order before you go hunting. Driver competence? You really want to go down that path? I think we can all agree that there are millions of dangerous drivers out there, and they won't lose their license. The best you can argue is an equivalency, not a increase in regulation with that one.

Now on the other side, all statements in a general sense: Do I need to be 21 to buy a car? No. Do I need permit to buy one? No. Is there a waiting period? No. Is there restrictions on how many I buy? No. Are there restrictions to how much and which type of fuel I can buy? No. Is there restrictions to how fast they can go? No. Are there restrictions in which cars I can buy and own, like how fast they are or how powerful they are? No. Am I limited in where and when I can drive my car? No. Is a felon barred from owning or using a car? No. Are there restrictions to how I store my car? No. And I could go on. Only natural that a loosening of heavy regulation is desired by law-abiding firearm users. It's not a debate that cars are less regulated than guns. And yet they kill many more, and they kill far more indiscriminately. Yet I don't hear as loud a call for more transportation laws. I chuckle at your proposals that clearly go well beyond car regulation in my state. And since we can prove it will do little stop shootings, it proves the point that the calls won't stop at that level of regulation. All-out ban and confiscation is the real goal. And the final problem? One tool is protected by the Constitution. The other is not.

Don't double down on your bigoted slang term by saying gun owners don't know the difference between a semi-auto and fully-auto firearm. I'm in awe at your ignorance about the beliefs of others (or even worse, maybe it's intentional). It's abundantly clear what the difference is, and the problem is that the gun control supporters are trying to re-write the dictionary to mean something else. You know, the first section of the 14th was written before certain things existed today as well.
Last edited by MSPNWA on Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9170
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:06 pm

DL717 wrote:
. No go back to your fake stats.


Fake? Which numbers are wrong and how?

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
seb146
Posts: 18278
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Re: Mass shooting at Country and Western bar in Thousand Oaks, California.

Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:33 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
And there's where you prove my point. Insurance? Fair point, but being able to pay for it is the only true restriction. Same as any other good you may own, like guns. Road worthiness? Not in my state and many others. And inspections are limited in scope. It's equivalent to saying certain guns need to be checked for working order before you go hunting. Driver competence? You really want to go down that path? I think we can all agree that there are millions of dangerous drivers out there, and they won't lose their license. The best you can argue is an equivalency, not a increase in regulation with that one.


So, again, cars and guns are not even close to the same thing.

If a person buys three cars, do they pay insurance on only one?

If your car has bald tires and belching smoke, you will be pulled over and told to fix it. Hell, even a headlight out can get you a "fix it" ticket.

Driver competence, I had hoped, would be self explanatory, but I guess not. There are idiot drivers who insist on driving drunk or high. Not enough of them get pulled over and have their car and licence taken from them because of incompetence. Others surf the web and drive and veer into oncoming traffic or the bike lane or into someone's living room and have their car and, sometimes, licence taken from them for incompetence.

However, those who follow the rules keep their car and licence.

Now on the other side, all statements in a general sense: Do I need to be 21 to buy a car? No. Do I need permit to buy one? No. Is there a waiting period? No. Is there restrictions on how many I buy? No. Are there restrictions to how much and which type of fuel I can buy? No. Is there restrictions to how fast they can go? No. Are there restrictions in which cars I can buy and own, like how fast they are or how powerful they are? No. Am I limited in where and when I can drive my car? No. Is a felon barred from owning or using a car? No. Are there restrictions to how I store my car? No. And I could go on. Only natural that a loosening of heavy regulation is desired by law-abiding firearm users. It's not a debate that cars are less regulated than guns. And yet they kill many more, and they kill far more indiscriminately. Yet I don't hear as loud a call for more transportation laws. I chuckle at your proposals that clearly go well beyond car regulation in my state. And since we can prove it will do little stop shootings, it proves the point that the calls won't stop at that level of regulation. All-out ban and confiscation is the real goal. And the final problem? One tool is protected by the Constitution. The other is not.


"heavy regulations"? You have GOT to be joking! We have had over 300 shootings in the last year and you think there is "heavy regulation" of guns? Courts do put regulations and restrictions on felons when it comes to cars. Many of them can not leave their state or can only be out during certain hours. They can not afford a car straight out of prison, anyway. They could borrow a car, sure. Just like people can borrow a gun.

The biggest reason anything is said about "right to bear arms" is because, when the Constitution was written, the government had no standing army. It was up to the male citizens of the United States to be the army if/when that time came. The "army" back then was the militia. The first words of the Second Amendment talk about the militia. There are rules and regulations for members of the militia later on in the Constitution.

Don't double down on your bigoted slang term by saying gun owners don't know the difference between a semi-auto and fully-auto firearm. I'm in awe at your ignorance about the beliefs of others (or even worse, maybe it's intentional). It's abundantly clear what the difference is, and the problem is that the gun control supporters are trying to re-write the dictionary to mean something else. You know, the first section of the 14th was written before certain things existed today as well.


So, list off semi automatic weapons, please.

I have said, as many of us have time and again, that we don't care if people need to hunt or need protection or want to own a part of history. But, why stockpile military grade weapons? If you need that kind of firepower to get food, start a garden and go vegan.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!

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